Talk:Anti-Japanese sentiment

Changs Book

The article states that Changs book was withdrawn because of contorversy here:

Books such as Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking generated enough controversy to be withdrawn from planned publication,

Is there a source on this? I heard that Chang got angry and pulled the deal when Japanese liberals (people in support of the Nanking Massacre) tried to fix some of the many errors in her book. It wasnt allowed and the book deal fell through.

invalid sources and anti-Japan education

We can not trust sources from South(and North) Korea. Why? You'll see if you read a histry book published in Korea. I've read a histry book used in Korean school.

Korean history books claim: 1. Korea has a 5000 yeas of history (longer than the history of China! wow). 2. Hangul has been used for centuries but, it's been banned by Japanese government. (Not true. The use of Hangul was banned by Korean King. Yangban strongly opposed the use of Hangul. Hanja had been officially used in Korea. Hangul became popular after 1910.) 3. Japan took away everything Korea had. (Not true. Japanese goverment built 5000 schools throughout Korea and taught Hangul. Japanese built rail roads, factories, hospitals, and a dam etc. Japan introduced modern medicine. The Korean population tripled in 36 years. etc etc) 4. Korea had been independent until 1910. (Not true. She gained independence after Treaty_of_Shimonoseki and built Independence_Gate) 5. Korea declared a war against Japan and Korean army faught against Japan and won the independence from Japan with some help of the atomic bombs. (Not true. There are no recod of any Korean army.. except a few soldiers who worked as an translator with US army) and list goes on and on...

Now, Korean people insists all the history taught in the US, China, Japan, and Russia are all wrong. [쿠키뉴스 2006-08-08 18:07] (Korean news article) http://news.naver.com/news/read.php?mode=LSD&office_id=143&article_id=0000035259

And finally, the Korean goverment is now teaching students to hate Japanese. http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/article_view.asp?menu=A11100&no=294782&rel_no=1

http://aog.2y.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1550

It's the education.

Skewed approach

I wont' go so far as to say this is POV, but the article puts way too much emphasis on Anti-Japanese sentiment from World War II America. While the stat box toward the top of the article is the *current* anti-Japanese sentiment, the bulk of the article focuses on one country's anti-Japanese sentiment from a 10 year (or so) period from 70 years ago. For instance, every image in the entire article except one is of World War II propaganda posters. Meanwhile the massive anti-Japanese sentiment still present in modern-day China is largely glossed over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sephalon1 (talk • contribs) 06:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

A good point. The main problem I see is that the US section is too long. As shown at the beginning of that section (and, in fact, the other sections), we have separate articles on individual countries. The thing would be to cut the US section down to a single paragraph; all of the other details belong in Anti-Japanese sentiment in the United States. Feel free to be bold and start making the cuts; just to be safe, you'll want to check the other article to make sure that anything you cut here is already there. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Korean slur, Jjokbari

I'm not trying to vandalize this article, but a pig feet theory of Jjokbari ( 쪽발이) sounds very weird to me. It is true that a name for pig feet dish called "Jokbal" (족발) and somewhat similar to this racial slur, but I believe it is a coincidence in pronunciation. As far as I know, the word came into existence from the sounds when someone wears tabi (a Onomatopoeia word). If the word really has "pig feet" meaning/root, then we need a reliable source for it. PBJT (talk) 19:17, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

References (1) Korean Wikitionary for the word.(2) Standard Korean Dictionary.

After looking up the dictionary, I found that the word isn't Onomatopoeia, and I confused with other word. (FYI, 딸깍발이') Sorry about my mistake. According to the dictionary, the word has following meanings:

1. single-footed object (한 발만 달린 물건.)
2. an object/animal with two-piece foot (발통이 두 조각으로 된 물건)
3. derogatory slur for Japanese people. When wearing tabis, it splits the thumb toe and other toes. derived from "split feet or 짜개발" (일본 사람을 낮잡아 이르는 말. 엄지발가락과 나머지 발가락들을 가르는 게다를 신는다는 데서 온 말이다. ≒짜개발).

If no reliable source for "pig feet" explanation provided, I'll remove the sentence again later. PBJT (talk) 19:49, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Here is an analogy for Jjokbal and Jokbal : In Japanese, South Korea is Kankoku (韓国) and the prison is Kangoku(監獄). Both sounds very similar to foreigners, but no one says the "literal meaning" of Kankoku is prison. Same logic here. In this article Jjokbari, it previously argued that the literal meaning of Jjokbal is pig's feet. I suspect that it has written by someone without much understanding of Korean, and that the contributor might noticed the similarity between two Romanized-words. One might argue that the pig's feet explanation didn't list in the dictionary because of its sensitivity. That might be the case. But I can assure other wikipedians that most Koreans never heard of this minor theory. If the theory I'm questioning is correct, then we need reliable sources. It would be very interesting for me to know a different meaning of this racial slur, but then I can't find any reliable source to back up the theory. As a side note, I left messages to the original contributors who have written this contents, asking them to join this discussion. PBJT (talk) 00:10, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not the one who added the information to the article. I just undid your removal, PBJT. I'll add two sources in ko to the article. The sources are these. [1] and [2]. Please do not remove information just because you do not know it. BTW, WP and WICT are not RS. Please do not use them as RS either. Regards. Oda Mari (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Many Thanks for your opinion, Oda Mari. It's an interesting article that you provided here. First of all, let me be clear that I'm not trying to whitewashing or censoring the content. This is probably the last article that I wanted to be involved in an editing war. (and personally I really don't like the word per se.) When I mentioned the original contributor, I was referring to CaliforniaAlibaba and Ryoske. They didn't contributed in wikipedia for more than a year, but I left a message anyway. Of course, I left a message to you Oda Mari as well, since your opinion is valuable here.

Second of all, what I'm trying to do here is correcting the inaccurate claim that the word's original meaning is from "Jokbal" or its literal meaning is "pig's feet". This is about a Korean word, so please bear with me for Korean dictionary like explanation. In the name for pig's feet/leg dish, the first syllable "Jok (족, 足)" means feet. The second syllable "Bal (발)" is native-Korean word for feet. These two same-meaning syllables have combined mistakenly to refers to a seemingly unrelated object, a pig's feet dish (족발). Thus, the syllable "Jok(足)" in itself doesn't refer to "pig", and it can refers to any animal's feet. (pig, cow or sheep.)

Now, let's look at the syllable "Jjok (쪽)". The syllable alone means (1) page. (2) direction (3) side, part (4) a piece. It is a commonly used word when you say "page 161 (161 Jjok)" or "a piece of apple (사과 한 쪽)". Thus, when combined with "feet (발)", the literal meaning of the word is "쪽"(a piece, a side, a part) + "발" (feet), a sided foot or a pieced foot. That's how the combined word "Jjok"+"bal" means "cloven hoof" of cow or deer, because the animal's hoof is split. The lat syllable "--yi" (이), when added at the end of a word, makes a word to refer to a person: "Do-eum (도움, help or aid)" + "-- yi (이)" = "Do-eum-i" (a helper). To make a long story short, the word by word or syllable by syllable meaning of the word in question is "split-feet person", "person with a cloven like feet" or "a piece/side feet person".

Last but not least, it isn't wikipedia's job to make a minor or unknown theory popular. Like you said, the Wikitionary cannot be a reliable source. But it simply reiterate what the standard Korean dictionary has listed for the word, and this Standard Korean Dictionary, a official SK government website, is the reliable source. (please note that, though, I added the wikitionary link because the standard Korean dictionary link doesn't directly show the word's definition.) Arguably even more reliable than a couple of google search results. And if you look up the word in question from the website, its definition is specifically mentioning "Geta" in Korean rendering of "게다" (see "엄지발가락과 나머지 발가락들을 가르는 게다를 신는다는 데서 온 말이다.") , not "Tabi".

All in one, maybe we could probably include this unreliable explanation in the article as a side note at best. In any case, the official definition of the word should be presented first and be given more weight whenever it is available. (in this case, we DO have the definition.) When you say adverbs like "literal" or "original" when describing this word and yet you argue the meaning of "Jok" is "pig", this makes others wonder whether the contributor has a good knowledge of Korean language. For me, the original contributors like CaliforniaAlibaba and Ryoske don't sound like they're fluent in Korean. (no offence here.) However the word came into existence, the word itself is a strong racial slur. But to make the article even more accurate, unreliable minor theory must be removed from the article. I welcome anyone's opinion/suggestion here. --- PBJT (talk) 14:18, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Pigs also have split hooves (Wikipedia article Cloven hoof)... AnonMoos (talk) 15:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I have already mentioned that "Jjok 쪽" + "Bal 발" could refers to any animal with split hoof like pig, cows and sheep. The correct word-to-word translation of "Jjok" + "Bal" is "Cloven hoof", not "pig". PBJT (talk) 15:29, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think geta has anything to do with the word. It makes me puzzled. Because people wear geta with bare foot in warm and hot seasons and that does not look like cloven-hoofed pig's foot as the five toes can be seen. See images. One of the sources I provided has images of 지카타비/jika-tabi, not geta. Do you have any source that says geta is the origin? If you cannot provide any, the geta information would be your WP:OR. Oda Mari (talk) 15:39, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

First the most questionable sentence is "the original meaning of the word ~~" part, which isn't true as I explained above. Second, I don't find any conflict if it is from wearing "Geta" or "Tabi", (since both footwear is same in the sense that they split thumb toe with others when a person wears it. both could have seen as separating toes to Koreans. But "Geta" is more widely known among Koreans, I guess.) My source is again the definition of dictionaries, and like I mentioned above, the definition is unambiguously mentioning "Geta" in its definition. So it isn't WP:OR: "thumb(엄지) toe(발가락)과 나머지 toes(발가락들)을 가르는 Geta (게다)를 신는다는 데서 온 말이다." If I add more details of quoted Korean sentence, it explains about "toes (발가락)", not "foot (발)". --- PBJT (talk) 15:56, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

If I may add comments on the article about 지카타비/jika-tabi, this news paper isn't major news media in SK. Its quality probably could match some tabloid-papers in the West. --- PBJT (talk) 16:56, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

"jjok" and "jok" in Korean language.

Let me reiterate my points here, since I want to clarify my arguments. A quotes from this version (Date: 24 April 2012) of the article's "Korean derogatory terms section".

... In slang meaning "pig's feet", this term is the most frequently used and strongest ethnic slur used by Koreans...

A. Literal meaning

1. In both words "jjok-bal (쪽-발)" and "jok-bal (족-발)", the second syllable "-bal (-발)" is a native-Korean word for foot/feet.
2. Although "jjok (쪽)" and "jok (족, 足)" is written similarly (double "jj" vs. single "j"), the two words have completely different meaning.
3. "jok" is the Korean pronunciation for the Chinese character "足", which means foot or leg.
4. When combined, literal meaning of "jok-bal (족-발)" would be "pedo-foot" in English, however it sounds weird. (using Latin word "pedo-" for foot.)
5. The word "jok-bal (족-발)" almost always refers to a cooked pig's feet dish, like "Ham" is a cooked meat from pig's leg.
6. A matching word for "pig's feet" in Korean is "dwae-ji-bal (돼-지-발)", not "jok-bal (족-발)".
7. "jjok (쪽)" is another native-Korean vocabulary for (1) page (2) direction (3) side (4) a piece.
8. When combined with "-bal", "jjok-bal (쪽-발)" means cloven hoof or any animals with cloven hoof.
9. Pigs also have cloven hoof, but the usage of "jjok-bal (쪽-발)" isn't restricted to pigs.
10. Unlike in the West, a cloven hoof isn't related to the Satan in Korea (maybe in Asia.) and a neutral word.
11. The word "jjok-bal (쪽-발)", however, is infrequently used since it could be confused a racial slur. (but it dose have its own meaning.)
12. When a syllable "- i (-이)" is added at the end of a word, the whole word refers to a person. ("Doeum-i", a helper)
13. Thus, when "-i (-이)" is added to "jjok-bal (쪽-발)", its word-by-word translation is "a person with cloven hoof-like feet".

B. Geta or Tabi

1. The stereotypical image of Japanese in Korea is involved with wearing Geta.
2. It could be comparable to the fact that Asian stereotype in the West is related to their slanted eyes.
3. Tabi is lesser-known than Geta in Korea, let alone Jika-tabi.
4. The Korean language institutes dictionary is unambiguously mentioning "Geta".

C. Sources and citations

1. The "pig's feet" expression was added on 29 December 2005 version by User:Ryoske without any citation.
2. In a separate page specifically dedicated to this racial slur, User: CaliforniaAliBaba created the document on 9 May 2007 with the following sentence:

... Jjokbari is generally accepted as literally meaning "pig's foot" (jjok being pig, bal being foot). ...

1. User:CaliforniaAliBaba mistakenly assumed that "jjok" means "a pig" in Korean, which is wrong.
2. The first cited news source by User:Oda Mari, Dailian-2008-09-21 was published in September 2008, well after 2005.
3. The second cited news source, NewDaily-2010-04-26 was published in April 2010.
4. When accessing Dailian-2008-09-21, it first shows "Malware detected warning". (which is not common for any well-established news media.)
5. In Dailian-2008-09-21, emoticons(i.e. ^^ for Smiley face) or internet slang (i.e. "ㅋㅋㅋ" which is "LOL" for Korean.) have been used.
6. In other words, Dailian-2008-09-21 isn't a professionally written article. It reads more like a personal trip log.
7. In the article NewDaily-2010-04-26, the writer introduced the word's definition first, before starting a paragraph for "jok-bal".
8. In both Dailian-2008-09-21 and NewDaily-2010-04-26, the authors didn't provide any proof/background for "jok-bal (족-발)" or "tabi" explanations.
9. In the article NewDaily-2010-04-26, the tone of paragraph reads like delivering un-sourced rumor. (i.e. "... 살펴봅니다.(≈let's have a look (another aspect)~)" and "... 닮았다네요.(≈it is said both look alike~.")
10. Another sourced reference Constantine, Peter (1992). Japanese Street Slang. in Jjokbari isn't reliable source neither and cannot verifiable without the book from which pages it was quoted.
11. The Standard Korean dictionary by Korean language institute shows the origin of word as "≒짜-개-발(jja-gae-bal)" or "split feet".

D. Final thoughts

1. I cannot emphasize enough that "Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors."
2. Whoever noticed the similarity in sound between "jjok-bal" and "jok-bal", the two separate words have evolved from different origin and meaning.
3. "jjok-bal" is originated from "jja-gae-bal", not "jok-bal". This explanation probably added after the words spelling have changed.
4. Since its addition in 2005, the origin or literal meaning of the word, which falsely claimed that it's from "pig's feet", was never been challenged or discussed.
5. The word/sentence in question is about definition of this specific word. Thus, Korean language institute dictionary's definition is most relevant and authoritative here.

--- PBJT (talk) 08:54, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I found the translation of 쪽바리 as ‘豚足’ (pig’s feet) on a Japanese website. I am very sorry if this is inaccurate; I should have been more thorough in my investigation.--Ryoske (talk) 11:33, 1 May 2012 (UTC)