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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 71.212.226.91 (talk) at 19:02, 23 June 2012 (→‎Should Wikinews pay volunteers and/or professionals?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


(Manual archive list)

Should Wikinews pay volunteers and/or professionals?

Would Wikinews be more successful if it paid reporters and tried to hire professionals? Would it be more successful if it were divided into continental bureaus? 75.166.206.120 (talk) 19:45, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Except that would be the exact opposite point of what Wikinews is meant to be. It is meant to conglomerate news sources and report on current already reported on news. Just like Wikipedia works off of already published information. In a sense, you could say Wikinews is meant to be the encyclopedia of current news reporting. SilverserenC 20:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree, but how is that opposite and not orthogonal to my questions? Would you prefer reading an encyclopedia of current news reporting which pays its workers, or one strictly based on volunteer work? Because as well as the volunteer model outperforms for the general encyclopedia, it seems to be doing that much below average for news organizations. 75.166.206.120 (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is not correct. News summary is just one of the two things that Wikinews does. Another is original reporting. See n:Wikinews:Introduction#What Wikinews articles are and n:Wikinews:Content guide for the on-wiki explanation. Uncle G (talk) 18:20, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, I was going to say this myself. Original reporting is occurring at Wikinews. Unlike mainstream media, sources and notes are transparently provided to the reader, which is very cool in my view. The problem with "paid volunteerism" is the opportunity cost. Namely, you can expect the number of people willing to volunteer without remuneration would sharply decrease. This is why the WMF won't fund needed work unless it believes, and volunteers will believe that the work could not be done without that funding. How do we make Wikinews more successful? I personally believe the best approach would be to work with universities running Journalism courses. If students all over the world can get course credit (and valuable experience!) writing Wikinews articles over the course of a full year, we might see Wikinews become a huge success. JJ Harrison (talk) 04:39, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is there some way to use a sliding scale to solve that problem? 71.212.226.91 (talk) 05:33, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hope Jimbo has an opinion on this. 71.212.226.91 (talk) 19:02, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ethereal being

There is an ongoing AFD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ethereal beings in which various experienced editors have taken opposing stances as to whether the article is WP:SYNTH/WP:OR (which is usually a clear-cut case) and whether such a topic can exist. Perhaps you, or one of your many watchful minions would like to participate?Smallman12q (talk) 16:30, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"watchful minions" meaning what exactly?--ukexpat (talk) 17:05, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AGF :-) it probably means "editors who are watching Jimbo's talk page". --Enric Naval (talk) 17:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Like Penemue I guess ;-) Dmcq (talk) 17:39, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will steer clear of this one. I would !vote Strong delete if I were voting. This is a classic type of article that I have seen many times in the past, in which someone has a new idea to lump together a bunch of related things under a new name, and tries to justify the existence of the article by noting all the valid references to the underlying related things. The problem is often that to a casual reviewer, the sourcing looks good.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:25, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I made a very similar, but not identical, argument at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Innocent prisoner's dilemma. Uncle G (talk) 17:44, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • That topic is one that has concerned me for many years and it applies in many contexts not just parole boards. For instance I only recently describe a problem in the way unblocking is done on Wikipedia with reference to that article. I am glad the consensus agrees with me and not you. Dmcq (talk) 22:00, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Consensus may agree with you, but scholarship and the source that supposedly underpins this do not. This is one occasion where a consensus of people who just thought that the sourcing looked good, and apparently didn't even read beyond the title to the abstract, let alone the actual content of the source, came to the wrong conclusion, as you too have, and now we have a superficially plausible article on a topic and propounding a thesis that Wikipedians made up. And yes, Penyulap created that article, and its copy in project space, to make a point about Wikipedia, too. It's a poor show when you sacrifice encyclopaedia quality and accurate representation of legal scholarship for the sake of the Village Pump. Uncle G (talk) 23:28, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I often get this idea I'm right and everybody else is wrong too. I hardly think it is a good idea to bring up such cases as any sort of example that'll convince anyone else of anything much. You just used this discussion as a WP:COATRACK. Dmcq (talk) 09:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to be very little in policy on notability and when synthesis of separate topics into a single article meets the criteria. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:53, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Like I've stated at the AFD, the "ethereal being" article can be salvaged, albeit with some work. A lot of work. It needs to be renamed to Immaterial being, because "ethereal" means nothing. It needs to be pruned of New-Age-y sections and passages. Its sources need to be checked, with lots of {{quotation requested}} tags. Etc. -Stevertigo (t | c) 23:29, 22 June 2012 (UTC) PS: The argument of SYNTH has some merit, but in this case, the article is trying to be a simple overview of the many and varied conceptions of immaterial beings that are out there. I agree though that its poorly conceptualized, and that has allowed a lot of rigorous handwaving into the article. -Stevertigo (t | c) 23:43, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The sources don't exist, even though sources demonstrating the non-OR nature of the topic have been requested on numerous occasions in the AfD, no person has responded with any sources in the whole discussion, not even ones that give a simple overview. Also, from what I can see there is no simple overview in the article, just a list of disconnected topics. If the sources don't exist, we can't have an article. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:55, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are over 200 citations in the article, are you saying that they all fail verification, or that they are all faked in some way? Theres a reason why AGF is referred to often, its because people often forget it. Now, it seems that one of the main issues, as Jimbo noted above, is that the title is rather sketchy: Nobody uses the word "ethereal" and hence there are no sources to substantiate its use. Thats a valid point. But the essential idea behind the article is genuine - that there are concepts of beings which don't have material bodies - for example God. God, for those of us who believe he exists, has no material body, hence he qualifies as some other, less materialistic, type of being. The idea of a non-material being is valid, and serves as a sort of reflection on our own human being - the essential idea behind many religious beliefs is that we transcend our material flesh. I can understand though that if I were an atheist I might find it easier to trash the article, but that would reveal a bias wouldn't it? Perhaps I too have a bias for eventualism and saving articles which attempt to deal with spiritual ideas.-Stevertigo (t | c) 00:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No we are not saying that the sources fail verification. They each verify a specific fact - but the main fact - the idea that there is such a topic as "ethereal being" that all of those minor facts have any relation to is entirely unsourced and unsourceable. The source to use for that would be 1. another encyclopedia that has an entry on "ethereal" or "immaterial" beings, 2. a book written describing a concept of such beings ad how all the different minor topics relate to it. 3. a review article reviewing the literature on ethereal beings. In absence of anything like that the article is merely an expressioin of someones opinion that certain ideas are similar and could be treated together as "immaterial beings".·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:29, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My religious beliefs or lack thereof have no bearing on this AfD. Please stop saying that editors are biased against the article when there is no legitimate reason to think so. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We all have biases, and I was simply admitting to having some myself. Now, regarding the article, do you agree or disagree that "ethereal immaterial being" is a valid premise for an article? -Stevertigo (t | c) 00:47, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a matter of agreement or disagreement but of producing sources that supports the notion that it is valid topic. Which source you would base such an article on? What other source describes a topic of "immaterial beings".·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't actually registered my feelings about it but I got the distinct feeling the article was more of a list than a discussion of a specific topic. Sort of as if we had an article about the monuments in London or the alumni of a university. It feels like there is some topic there but it would be a much smaller article. Dmcq (talk) 10:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Some rather nice illustrations though... The gnostic cloudscape photographed in Rochester, Minnesota [1], looks really encyclopedic atmospheric. According to the caption, Storm clouds in the devic kingdom are more than an atmospheric event but also a product designed and directed by angels and sylphs. —MistyMorn (talk) 11:22, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mammatus clouds is what I'd call them, you can see a few more at that article if you like those. Freud would have something to say about that but I don't believe in commenting on what strikes peoples' fancy :) Dmcq (talk) 14:16, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
By contrast, there's some good, encyclopedic gallery illustration, imo. (But maybe ethereal beings should get a look in here, lol?) —MistyMorn (talk) 16:17, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Speedy deletion wiki"

As I've just seen reported at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#new software in place there is now a "speedy deletion wiki" hosted through Wikia which is archiving the text of deleted Wikipedia articles "every ten minutes". The first deleted article I looked at at random from the first page of results was a copyright violation. To the extent you exercise control over Wikia's content, I think you should take this down as swiftly as possible, both to protect Wikia and Wikipedia from legal liability, not to mention the ethical implications attendant on attack pages and copyright violations of all stripes being hosted there, and originating here.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:01, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I will ask Wikia to look into it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:10, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-June/thread.html#120474 71.212.226.91 (talk) 06:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Commons, again

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/User_problems/Pieter_Kuiper

You really need to take a look at some of the comments from senior administrators on commons. It appears that the comfort of their lives on commons trumps copyright enforcement efforts. In addition, there is credible evidence that one of your senior editors on commons operated a willful flickr washing account.

With apologies for having to bring this to your attention. DearJimbo (talk) 19:19, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy, I know you got pretty badly burned last time you tried to wade into commons in a serious way, but this really is a tipping point (look for Herbythyme's signature in the earlier parts of the discussion... he's one of the few true "stewards of the real mission" left).
The senior editor doing the "flikrwashing" (that's commons-speak for creating a flikr account, grabbing other people's work, and releasing it as "own work" under a compatible license) is Fae. Details here and below.
More than meta or perhaps even the WMF itself, commons is at the heart of the international and multilingual effort. It's in serious trouble. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 02:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have proof of this rather serious allegation that Fae is grabbing other people's work and releasing it as his own work?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:09, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the WY thread, you know what I know. The case is more than strong enough that an Arbcom would have wanted to pursue it, if commons had an arbcom. The WP committee (understandably) does not want to look into the problems on commons, and most of the people commenting on that commons page are part of an iron-clad cabal (a real one, like en.wp had in the bad old days of the "stalking list", etc.) with itchy block button fingers. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 09:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What does 'WY thread' mean? I looked at the page you reference and I see some vague allegations but not a summary that I could understand. Fae appears to be objecting strongly to the characterization, so it seems important that you justify your remark with proof. I should add that I am completely agnostic at the present time as to whether or not it is true, but it's a helluva a thing to just say casually. Taking images of other people on flickr, releasing them as 'own work' with a free license is a really really bad thing to have done. If it actually happened. Did it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:42, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"WY thread" meaning the Wikipediocracy thread I linked to (and thanks for looking... I know that's not your favorite site). You sort of have to perform something analogous to looking at an Escher print to get the whole thing in mind, but the gist is that there are a group of accounts both here, on commons, and on Flickr that were all owned by one person, and that the end result was that non-free works ended up being used as illustrations for WP articles.
I'm also somewhat "agnostic" about the whole thing (though the preponderance of evidence does seem to point in a certain direction). I only brought it in here because Mr. "Dear Jimbo" somehow decided not to name the person he was talking about. I almost regret even bringing it into this, because the real point is that the strange cabal on commons is moving to ban someone for being too ruthless with catching copyvios by members of said cabal, and that really doesn't do the free learning resources movement any good. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 23:22, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. As to evidence for this flickrwashing, Commons:File:Barrowman_and_Gill_-_30_June_2007.jpg was one of the files uploaded by AsheyVH via the Flickr account gayspunk/a1ien (it was a frame of a YouTube video at 0:43). See Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Kristian Digby 2009.jpg for indications that Ash controlled the gayspunk account. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 12:49, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This archive link may be helpful. Of course, the YouTube account and video may be Fæ's, but it seems unlikely given that Russavia deleted it without starting a deletion request. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:31, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I quickly tried to understand the issue, but it needs an executive summary, possibly off wiki. One thing I did work out is that to "look for Herbythyme's signature" you have to search for "--Herby". I think the claims are that a senior editor has socks, and that copyright violations are being performed by a tag team, and that has involved a throw-away Flickr account. Is that right? Anything else? There is apparently a user who has been blocked after raising copyright issues in a manner that many found offensive? The commons community is welcoming images without due concern about copyright? Johnuniq (talk) 04:44, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My read of it is identical to yours, except for one thing - the editor who was blocked for raising copyvios in a way that others found offensive is also apparently block-evading now. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 05:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not evading anymore. He alledegly evaded his block (which was done by an involved admin) on June 7, where various IPs, who are likely to be identical to the user (not firmly CU confirmed) created 11 deletion requests. Since then no signs of block evasion. --Slaunger (talk) 08:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Three of the eleven requests were speedy deleted by the blocking admin. Of the remaining eight deletion requests, six were confirmed to be copyvios and the copyvios have been deleted. The two other deletion requests are still open. All this information is available in the collapsed table on the page. --Slaunger (talk) 08:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As far as i can see we have multiple issues at once. The issue leading to the block of Pieter was that he stalked users with a different opinion and listed their uploads for deletion. That some of them where right or wrong is a different issue. The block was based on the fact that he abused the deletion requests to annoy and attack this contributers and only this contributers. It was his motivation to annoy the users what he was blocked for. So far i can understand this block entirely.

Take a look at the complete list of DRs opened by PK the last 1.5-2 months. His DRs are spread among many contributors. Some he has had conflicts with, some other. And actually there are not that many. A large fraction of the DRs have been uncontroversial, and has led to copyvios being deleted. So I do not agree with only this contributors. In several of the DRs the original uploader actually agrees with PK, that the file should be deleted. --Slaunger (talk) 10:17, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Even if that is the case, despite the fact that he has "problems" with many users, there is still enough left to annoy the users he is conflict with. Thats a basic misuse of deletion requests and he has done it repeatedly despite warnings not to do so. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 11:52, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The recent comments (not only on this page, but also on the mailinglist and other places) suggest that it is now the time to put his deletion requests under a different light and make it seam that he only did a good job identifying copyright violations, justifying his behavior. I am bold and say that the only motivation behind the current campaign is to attack Commons and hated admins once again... --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 10:05, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BS. Commons has very serious problems and they need to be fixed, stat. Viriditas (talk) 10:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please state the single problems as precisely as you can. Then we can talk about the individual problems. Just saying that Commons is "broken" or alike won't help anybody. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 11:48, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously about the "flikrwashing". I also demand an explanation of the said problem from the opponent. It has nothing to do with Pieter's questionably vengeful behavior. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 12:17, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that some commons admins retaliate with blocks for having their own copyright problems pointed out in DRs. That is intimidative. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 12:52, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That should not be subject to the current discussion. Your personal dispute(s) and what is meant inside this thread are two different things. Even though both aspects are somehow connected i don't want two throw two issues inside the same cup. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 16:16, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Commons is about as broken as Wikipedia. Both have tons of problems to deal with (e.g. 50K WP articles are currently tagged as having {{multiple issues}}), and a shortage of good editors to fix them. I agree with Niabot that complaining about Commons in general (or WP) doesn't help - if anything, the opposite. --Avenue (talk) 12:42, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, no. I used to think en-Wikipedia had a lot of problems, and I still do and it still does, but then I started paying attention to Commons. In relative terms, Commons makes en-Wikipedia look like a paragon of efficiency and sanity. Commons really is THAT BAD. VolunteerMarek 22:36, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How does such a comment from you, in my eyes a WC member and anti-commons-sympathizer, improve the situation or lead to factual results if it would be really that bad? --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 23:06, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Anti-commons-sympathizer"??? Where did you pull that one out of? Is that like "communiss sympathizer" or more like "western imperialistic capitalistic sympathizer", I can't tell. Look, I'm no "sympathizer". I'm "anti-Commons-as-she-is-currently-run" period. Hopefully the factual results are coming soon.VolunteerMarek 23:30, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I also hope for factual results. But that would be different results as you have in mind. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 23:39, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing wrong with Commons that a good office action cannot fix. It was needed to get rid of Beta M, and it is apparently needed again. Tarc (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How should that office action look like? Banning the last active admins that have the guts to deal with controversial content, while being the permanent target of a conservative (at least in respect to Wikipedia or my personal view) wing group? To be fair. I have no problem with sanctioning editors who do flickr-washing or gamble the system otherwise. But i find the motivational force behind this campaigns despicable. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 16:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And that sounds like we -the consavatives- have the ill-will to overthrow all the involved Commons admin. Kowai kowai. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 16:30, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can't help it if the pattern of actions suggests it in a strong way. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 17:00, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by とある白い猫

Finding and eliminating copyrighted content supposed to be a non-controversial routine task. Often people upload copyrighted content without realizing. For instance people do not realize Freedom Of Panorama (FOP) laws or the copyright status of the content they uploaded had changed. These people would not have objected their contribution be reviewed had it not been after a disagreement on something completely unrelated.

Pieter Kuiper issue has been brought to Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems for civily violations and wiki-harassment far too often and has a long block log for this behavior. Users DR nominations often have the goal to intimidate people he is at a disagreement with. For instance if you move a file he has previously declined its move, you will get retaliatory nominations and get talk page spammed with correct and incorrect nominations. Hence Pieter Kuiper uses this otherwise non-controversial and routine task and uses it to distress/intimidate users which is disruptive.

User was told that he would be unblocked if he stopped the behaviour he is blocked for. He replied by saying deletion requests can have many motives and pointed out ethnic conflicts as an example of different motives to bring content to DR. He has not shown any intention to change.

-- A Certain White Cat chi? 15:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I could do better here than quote the edit summary of Cool Hand Luke, then an arbitrator here, who looked in on the last similar effort by involved Commons admins to ban Pieter for nominating their copyright violations: "Does Commons care about copyright vios, or does this community exist solely so that the admins will not be embarrassed?" JN466 16:05, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(And of course Pieter was not saying that his nominations were motivated by feelings about ethnic conflicts. Here is what he actually said: A significant number of people here have double standards. Have a look at User talk:KVDP for example, and one can imagine that KVDP feels being bullied by Dingley & Carnildo. Compare that with their votes on my block. Deletion requests can have many motives. Quite often it is some ethnic conflict. Has anybody been blocked for that kind of nominations, when the DRs were generally justified? My motivation is that admins must not have different rules for others than for themselves. I have never deleted anything. All I can do is to call attention to a problem. You guys are shooting the messenger. Jeez. --JN466 16:23, 22 June 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Jayen pretty much nails it. Most of these charges against Pieter seem to be exaggerated, and I can't help but notice these allegations against him come primarily from editors who have been involved in content disputes with him. Also, some of the charges against him, such as outing and stalking, appear to have little supporting evidence. Most of the allegations are composed of "look, he's been accused of x so he must be a y". This really looks like a witch hunt. Viriditas (talk) 22:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I would politely ask you to not discuss Pieter's behavior any further (making DRs indiscriminately in your POV), it's all already in the linked Commons AN page. I believe he is blocked indefinitely primarily for block evasion instead of retaliatory DR. But this topic is about the flickrwashing. I'm more interested in your defense of the accusation. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 16:06, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is fine. I just wanted to make sure Jimbo had the crucial links to elements of the discussion that were neglected. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 17:39, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Quite. There are actually issues with two organisations here. One is the allegation that Commons is in a mess and controlled by a cabal that interprets policy selectively and therefore is not taking any serious action against the alleged Flickr-washer. The other is that the editor accused of Flickr-washing is the Chair of WMUK and as such the chairman of a charity through which large amounts of Wikimedia-related money passes. This individual has recently been invited to keep away from Jimbo's talk page allegedly for libelling people here and is currently the subject of an Arbcom case due to his refusing to get involved in lower level dispute resolution. How is his being the chair, or indeed a trustee, of WMUK compatible with the chapter agreement requiring WMUK not to bring the Foundation into disrepute or the legal duty of charity trustees in England and Wales not to bring a registered charity into disrepute? Dan Murphy, a journalist whose day job is with a publication that has won multiple Pulitzer Awards, is again talking about writing an article about Fae imminently. The Foundation and Wikipedia's reputation will be best protected if Fae has no official positions by the time the article is published. If the Office were to look into the truth of various of these allegations now, they should be able to get things tidied up before any article appears.---Peter cohen (talk) 17:42, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another personal attack hidden between the lines. Great job and hail WC. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 17:46, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The possibility of a site-ban (if not also a global ban), for the user:Nipponese Dog Calvero, a cross-Wiki vandal and an Internet troll.

SIR, — It is purely symoblic, semantic and academic of course, but would you, Mr. Wales, Sir, care to entertain and consider perhaps in the possibility of the placing of a ban, either locally or globally, or both, upon the User:Nipponese Dog Calvero, a known and a most notorious, and may I dare say, most annoying and irritating indeed as well, Internet Troll and Cross-Wiki vandal, mainly and originally of the Chinese-, the Japanese- and the Vietnamese-language Wikipedias, being currently blocked indefinitely, but not as of yet banned as such? Yours, — KC9TV 12:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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