Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

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Why use G5 for useful pictures?[edit]

Batsto Mansion with Fire Tower.jpg

This picture was tagged for speedy deletion with the rationale "This file may meet Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion as a page created by a banned or blocked user (ColonelHenry – SPI confirmed suspected) in violation of his ban or block, with no substantial edits by others. See CSD G5."

I was one of the people who set ut CSD, and it was never intended to to delete images like this. This is clearly a historical landmark, and a quick internet search confirms that it's indeed the described building. What reason is there to speedily delete it? — Sebastian 07:20, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

See WP:BMB. Banned editors often try to game the system by making constructive edits in evasion of the ban, to prove that they can't be banned or create this kind of dilemma for editors. If someone has been banned then we've made the decision that the negatives of their participation here outweigh the positives, and that includes uploading useful images. Hut 8.5 10:56, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
One could download such an image, and re-upload under a new name. The creator, who may be the banned user, would still have to be credited, of course, but not listed in the page history. Personally I don't really approve of G5 or of the WP:DENY philosophy behind it. But WP:BMB is policy, and G5 has consensus, and i will abide by them. DES (talk) 13:12, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
I respect your position, and I guess I'll adopt it, too. Thanks to everyone for the explanations! — Sebastian 07:05, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, G5s are by far the slowest members of CAT:CSD to get deleted, because support for thoughtless deletion of everything is not that strong. WilyD 10:36, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
  • It's nothing to do with the image per se. Yes, it's a good pic of a valid subject - but accept it and you remove any point from banning and blocking. If you can come up with a way of allowing only good edits (or good pics) from someone who for one reason or another (or several dozen...) has been officially labelled persona non grata here, then it can be discussed in an appropriate location. The only way I can see would be to have every edit scrutinised by an appointed and trusted editor before it was officially posted. I'm not volunteering for the job - would you? Sometimes a banned or blocked editor can be rehabilitated - but violating their block doesn't bode well. Sound editing elsewhere with no problems can be of value in a reappraisal. I'm assuming that the image wasn't uploaded to Commons by someone who isn't banned or blocked there. That's a different kettle of fish altogether. Peridon (talk) 18:59, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
Re "would you?". That is already part of my job as an admin. When I go through Category:Candidates for speedy deletion, I have to check each deletion request. ("Scrutinize" is a bit too strong.) That's exactly how I saw that this is a useful picture. — Sebastian 07:27, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
No, I'm meaning every edit made by a banned or blocked user as part of rehab. I too look at Cat:CSD but I don't open every one there. I do check the ones I open. Peridon (talk) 09:31, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
It seems we agree Wikipedia already has a mechanism in place to check edits. Why are you suggesting a separate checking process for this particular area? — Sebastian 18:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
  • The fact that someone has been banned from contributing to Wikipedia overrides the usefulness of the edit, because they are not supposed to be editing, period. If they are not banned there, they should upload the image directly to Commons instead. On a side note, it seems as if that the user in this particular case is disputing the accusation that they are a sockpuppet. ViperSnake151  Talk  20:05, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
  • For free content such as this that is better suited for the Commons, transwiki to the Commons would be appropriate assuming the uploader wasn't banned on the Commons as of the original upload date or that Commons does not have something similar to :en's {{db-g5}}. For non-free content that is still easily accessible (i.e. not in an obscure book or deadlinked web site), delete the page and have an arbitrary editor re-create the page de novo using an image from an available source, without giving any credit to the original uploader (WP:DENY at its finest - we keep the content but don't credit the sockpuppet because there's no original creative content that needs to be credited to him). Non-free content that cannot easily be re-uploaded and free content that even the Commons doesn't want is a more difficult issue. If it's not used in an article and doesn't need to be kept for administrative or other good purposes, and the Commons doesn't want it, delete it. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 20:27, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
    Nice suggestions! This picture is clearly better suited for Commons. By "transwiki", you mean just downloading it from here and uploading it there, or is there a process for that? There seems to be no banning at Commons, at least it's not listed at c:Commons:Policies and guidelines. — Sebastian 07:05, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
    See Help:Transwiki. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 03:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
    Oh, of course, thanks, David! Well, I now already just re-uploaded the file. Do you see any problem with that? — Sebastian 18:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment It seems that there has now been two discussions at ANI regarding restoration of G5 content and this one regarding images. Is this a request for a change to the wording of G5? If so, then this seems appropriate. Otherwise is this a request for being an IAR exemption (an unspoken rule about when to use and when not to use G5)? If so, then I have to object so we have some idea of where these discussions should be. It needs to be systematic not ad hoc. I've proposed WP:DRV as this seems like just another example of an appeal of a speedy deletion and DRV will be a better place to formulate rules and precedents than using ANI and this page. DRV lets us argue it each article or work by piece or by user or whatever, it's been around for long enough and works better than this (and frankly, it's pretty slow right now so it can handle the volume the way this single talk page can't). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
    This question was simply a question, not an RFC. It has been answered sufficiently. A slight wording change to avoid such questions in the future might make sense, but it seems more effort than it could save. Instead of the vague references to ANI, could you please link to the specific discussions? — Sebastian 18:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
    My view is that instead of a change in G5 wording, and as a general principle, we can advocate that if someone thinks a picture is worth keeping anyways, we suggest a place for a discussion on the individual pictures. It would be more sensible to me to do it that way than "admins should decide on their own if a picture is useful" as there are likely to be differences of opinion on that. And the prior discussions were regardless articles here and currently here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:41, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
    Thank you, Ricky, for your reply and for providing the links. The second one is now archived here. It's interesting that both of them, while on the face of it the same situation, got resolved differently. As for the present topic, I think that pictures, at least photographs, differ significantly from articles in that they are less vulnerable to any tendentious intent the banned editor may have. (They either depict what their title says, or not.) Therefore, it is usually appropriate for the assessment being done by a single person. Of course, if the person who decided not to delete made a mistake, discussion is needed, but that doesn't require a special place, the user talk page will do just fine. — Sebastian 19:14, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
    I think Sebastian, as zzuuzz points out, it depends on why the person got banned. So a person banned for copyright violations violating it with a new sock doing the same thing should have their content deleted under G5. A person banned for incivility wouldn't have their content deleted that way because it's not a G5 situation. I'm still of the view that we defer to admins on the G5 deletion and if it's wrongly deleted, the proper remedy is a discussion at DRV to revert and restore the images. The user talk page of the admin is fine but we don't have a mechanism if the admin disagrees other than another admin IARing it (while not calling it wheel warring) and possibly a question of whether the IAR is appropriate. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:23, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
    Copyright is unlikely to be an issue in a case of a self-shot image, as the one in this section. Maybe someone else pwns the picture and now the uploader can gloat about having lied successfully. But do we really have to worry about that? If the rightful owner complains, we can still take it down with very little effort. If the nominator thinks a picture is likely a copyright violation, then they should write so in the hatnote; that would be the smoothest and safest process. As for whether to use a talk page or DRV; you are right that many, if not most people would use DRV. I for one see DRV as just another drama board that is very costly for the community. I find it always more polite, efficient and WP:AGF to just talk with the person you disagree with before involving a whole bunch of people. E.g., if, after I restored the above image (and we didn't have this discussion already), you had left me a short note that you have reason to think it was taken by someone else and is therefore a copyvio, I would have had no problem removing it. — Sebastian 20:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
    I think Sebastian, this header implies you are arguing the general point not this particular image. I have zero opinions about this particular image or this particular banned user. I'm debating how images should be handled: there are WP:FFD discussions about any image but we have G5 (and other CSD criteria) which allow for deletion without those discussions. If you think we should change G5 to only articles and exclude images, that's a separate suggestion that you can propose but then arguments about images from banned users would flood Files for Discussion. That's what's going on with Neelix and his redirects and RFD). If you think G5 should require a notice timeperiod (seven days perhaps) as we do for other copyright issues with images, that's another perspective. Else, my view is while I'm certain that most people don't know what DRV is, I expect people to go to the admin's page, ask why it was deleted and absent the deleting admin overturning the deletion, I'd prefer we have a place for them to go which shouldn't be begging other admins to overturn it or starting discussions like this here or going to ANI or wherever else they want to argue it. I realize that I'm a lone dissenter here arguing a broader point no one really cares about but I am because we keep getting random assorted discussions without any coherent way to figure out a plan. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:18, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
    You're not that "lone", Ricky. We are largely in agreement: Some pictures from banned users should be deleted, and some shouldn't, and the one here is an example for the latter. Where we differ is in our experience; you apparently have made some unpleasant experiences with deletion which I haven't made. So I don't see a need for any changes; while I am not happy with the rules as they stand, I can live with them. — Sebastian 17:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • In quite a lot of cases users get banned for persistently violating copyrights, in addition to the deception you often see with violating bans and other policies. It is often safer to simply dismiss, or at least distrust, the information provided by the banned user. Saying they are good additions requires a high degree of vigilance. -- zzuuzz (talk) 07:20, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Recent stylistic changes[edit]

KDS4444 made some changes to the style of the criteria. The main thrust was to change the first part of each criterion from a fragment to a complete sentence. I've since edited on top of KSDS4444's changes. Although I don't have strong objections to the changes, I don't necessarily endorse them, either. So, if someone chooses to back them out pending a discussion here, they are obviously free to back out my changes as well.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:04, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Though I hope other editors will like what I have done: I was following links from CSD nominations and as the links to these different criteria were all sentence fragments, I wanted to make them less confusing for new visitors. I think that we as experienced Wikipedia editors find it all too easy to forget what it was like when we first got here or how much struggle it was to understand not just the codes but the explanations given for the codes that seemed to be everywhere but didn't always make sense as many of them would begin as sentence fragments and we didn't realize that the whole sentence began a paragraph or two above were the link we followed had dropped us. I took some time (not insubstantial) to recraft these various criteria so that a newcomer would be able to stand on the surest footing possible once arriving. I did nothing to substantively change the criteria themselves, as that was far beyond my scope or abilities. But a little consistent editing for readability, that I could do and did. May it meet with broader approval. KDS4444Talk 15:16, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
There's no need to revert them IMO. I like how you filled out the sentence fragments, and on the whole the relative pronouns are now clearer. I don't get why you changed "exclude" to "does not cover" but it's not a negative change. BethNaught (talk) 15:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Looks OK to me. I've taken out the colon after the 'General' general statement. It wasn't followed by a list within a sentence or a consequential clause. (Very minor nitpick here...) Peridon (talk) 16:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Expand A11 or create a similar R criteria[edit]

In the face of thousands of nonsense invented words and terms used as redirects, we need to expand A11 to cover redirects or create a matching Obviously Invented reason for redirects. Legacypac (talk) 01:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

  • We already have the implausible redirects criteria. And the silly redirects are not a regular problem - they're pretty much all a single disruptive editor. We shouldn't make a criteria about something that only a single editor has done. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
    • There's a proposal at ANI to do this on a temporary basis just for the current problem. We have WP:G1 for patent nonsense (gibberish) and WP:R3 for recent implausible typos. One editor's clear nonsense is another's useful alternative spelling, which is why it's important to discuss these outside of the current unpleasantness. The volume of these that turn up at RfD is actually quite low normally, so there's no desperate need to expedite their deletion. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:39, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Unused "orphan" redirects[edit]

What about unused "orphan" redirects? When nothing links to a redirect, it serve no purpose and just creates clutter. We should add "unused orphan" as another criteria for speedy deletion. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Like everything in {{R from typo}}? T. Canens (talk) 05:21, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • We only know what things on Wikipedia links to redirects. If some other website links to them, we have no idea. Such redirects are often kept when discussed at redirects for discussion, so speedy deletion is out of the question. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 05:25, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • No to speedy. While it may not be used here, a lot of redirects exist because of the search engine here so people who make typos and the like get to the right page (including I believe google spidering those typo redirects). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

AfC speedy G12[edit]

Hey, I was wondering who I could speak to about the G11 speedy deletions at AfC. I've noticed that copyright speedies at AfD tend to blank the submission, which makes it more difficult for deleting admins to check for copyright violations because we have to pull up the page history and manually compare the entries. This isn't always a problem if the entry is particularly short, but sometimes the entry can be quite large and the copyvio might be a small portion of the entry. Blanking the page makes the duplication detector effectively useless. While we shouldn't rely only on this to check for copyvio, I've found it very helpful when it comes to locating the copyrighted material.

Is there anything that can be done about this? Is blanking the page really necessary, given that it can interfere with one of the tools used to detect copyvio? I also note that since this is at AfC, the copyrighted material isn't visible to the mainspace and most of the articles tagged in the mainspace for copyvio aren't blanked. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 06:13, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Is this new Twinkle behaviour? I've done G11 listings in the past with TW and the page has not automatically been blanked, so either that's changed or someone is manually blanking after the tag is posted. The only criterion I know of that TW blanks is G10 (attack pages), and rightly so, but G11 should stay up until the content is reviewed. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Confirmed in my sandbox just now that Twinkle doesn't automatically blank for G11 or G12 noms. Just to clarify, G11 is for spam, G12 is for copyvios. Someone must be manually blanking. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:46, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
If the page is marked as Copyvio in the AFC tool decline, by default the setting is to blank the page. Assuming the page is live, you can use Earwig's Copyvio Detector and plug in the revision ID to see how similar the content is. Hasteur (talk) 18:02, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
When the page is blanked, the AFC tool places a template with links to both Earwig's tool and, if a source was specified, the Duplication Detector tool. The AFC tool automatically makes these links use the last version before the page was blanked. No need to plug I the revision ID manually. --Ahecht (TALK
) 15:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes I too would prefer that the page not be blanked for copyvios. As it does make checking much more difficult. In perhaps 5% of cases it is not a copyright violation (eg public domain source or Wikipedia clone), so these do need checking prior to speedy delete. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:00, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • It's something that comes up as an option when you're declining an article. If you decline it as a copyright violation then a number of tags will come up, one of which is an option to blank the submission and another to nominate it for speedy deletion. This box (along with the speedy nomination box) is automatically checked, so it's entirely possible for people to nominate and blank the submission without consciously making this decision. You can test this out on pretty much any AfC draft and see the box pop up if you select the decline option "cv". You can test it out on Draft:Michael Kibbe by selecting the criteria. You don't have to actually fully process the decline option to see the boxes, so you can test it out on this random AfC draft without worry that it'd muck up the draft itself. I basically just want to get the blanking removed as an option because it's more an annoyance than a boon when it comes to checking material. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 06:17, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't work in the reviewing side of AfC, but I've always wondered why the blanking was done when it usually isn't in article space (apart from that enormous bluish-greeny thing that suggests to me that someone is dealing with something so I don't have to...). Perhaps someone noticed the length of time it took for things in AfC to be dealt with... Things that definitely don't belong (like attack pages, which could last for years previously) are now sorted quickly. I'd be quite happy to see this go, or be made into a non-default option for cases considered extra serious - but even there, the content is accessible to anyone who knows what 'History' is for. BTW can I suggest changing the G11 in the title of this thread to G12? And the 'AfD' mention to 'AfC' too. Peridon (talk) 12:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I changed the header to G12 as that's copyright violations. It is AFC though. If that's a Twinkle issue, then WP:TWINKLE has a bug reports section. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:05, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

A7 meaning?[edit]

As a result of discussions on my talk page, I no longer have the faintest idea what A7 was originally supposed to mean. The official definition is "No credible claim of significance", and significance is supposed to be a lower standard than notability. What isn't clear however, is how much lower than notability it is, or what "significant" actually means. What I consider to be significant, others may not, and vice versa. It's stated explicitly here that it's a fair bit lower than notability, whereas here it's implied there's hardly any difference, because it goes on about notability. As such, I've noticed many (the majority I'd say) editors seem to be taking A7 to mean "No credible claim of notability" rather than "No credible claim of significance". Some seem to have taken it a step further and think it means "no notability", regardless of the claim and its credibility and sources. Furthermore, what's credible and what's not also depends on who you ask. Some editors also don't seem to understand that A7 is about the claim itself, not whether it's true or has sources. I could give you more contradictions, but I'll give an example from here. It says a claim such as a kid receiving an award from a president is sufficient to save an article from A7, but given my experience here so far, I think few others would agree, and I'm pretty sure that such an article would still get A7ed. With all this contradiction and confusion, It's clear to me that A7 is far too open to interpretation, and I've had certain editors moan at me because my interpretation is not the "correct" one, no matter how valid I think mine is. On that basis, I think A7 should be completely reworded, or perhaps even scrapped and an new, much more specific criterion put in its place. I don't see anywhere where there's a specific policy or guideline as to what qualifies for A7 and what doesn't on the basis of no claimed significance. It's all vague, self-contradictory and open to interpretation. I realise the pages I've linked to are essays which represent viewpoints, but that only strengthens my case of the criterion being too vague. And I haven't even started on A7's scope, which even I think is quite specific, but that doesn't stop people from tagging any article with it. Adam9007 (talk) 03:34, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

You concerns seem to be about editor behavior, which is not a reason to scrap a speedy deletion criterion. VQuakr (talk) 04:05, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
No, my concerns are about edit behaviour due to misunderstanding of the criterion. The criterion is very badly worded which leads to such behaviour. Editors wouldn't "misbehave" if the criterion was worded so as to make its meaning clear. Adam9007 (talk) 04:37, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
First, the issue is a "claim" of significance. Second, this claim must be credible. Mostly these are biography articles (bands, actors, artists) that simply state "X is a band from place Y." There is nothing there that remotely even claims anything that would make them significant. So next you get an article that says "X is a band from place Y that has sold 10 billion albums" without a source. That claim isn't credible because there's no sources. An article that says "X is a band from place Y that has two albums out" with sources that confirm the album exists isn't A7 because it's a claim and the claim is credible so it's a PROD or AFD at that point, based on whether or not the albums are from a mainstream producer, etc.. The fact that the band wouldn't pass WP:MUSICBIO is only evidence that it's not notable, not proof and thus it's not an A7 meaning that someone has at least a chance to prove that its' notable. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:46, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
  • @Ricky81682: Sources have nothing to do with it. Otherwise your generally correct. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
You're right but the lack of reliable sources can be a reason to remove the claim and thus it falls under A7. Bootstrapping a bit but it goes to credibility of the claims. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:06, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Do you really think that this "bootstrapping" procedure complies with the statement in A7 that it "does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source"? I think your view here is emblematic of the confusion that needs to be resolved. A2soup (talk) 10:26, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I think that the presence of sources indicating notability should invalidate A7, but their absence doesn't make it inevitable. Peridon (talk) 12:11, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
The question is whether it is okay to remove a claim of significance because it is unsourced and then A7 the article because it has no claim of significance. It seems to me that course of actions should never be acceptable under the current A7. Thoughts? A2soup (talk) 18:30, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
  • @Adam9007:, do you have a suggested rewording? It could always be better, after all. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not Adam9007, but I have seen A7 misused a great deal and thought about this a lot. One small change to address perhaps the most concrete and serious mistake people make with A7, which is thinking that it has anything at all to do with WP:V, would be changing "credible claim of significance" to "plausible claim of significance". To me, language about credibility implies the need for supporting evidence. If I make an assertion, but have no evidence for it, can it be a credible assertion? I don't think so. But it can it be a plausible assertion. I understand that this is a subtle change based on very fine semantic nuances, and I agree that a complete rewrite might be best, but I think this could help a bit while being less controversial. What do people think? A2soup (talk) 09:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I think you'll have to explain that one. To me, 'plausible' is connected in common use with rather negative things like 'plausible villains', while credible is 'can be believed without much effort'. I can't see any improvement there. Peridon (talk) 11:36, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I remain convinced that "credible" is confusing in the way I described. See Ricky81682 (an admin for 10 years!) above: "That claim isn't credible because there's no sources." I agree that plausible may not be an improvement. I think Ahecht's idea of removing the qualifier is excellent-- it dispels the confusion elegantly and {{db-hoax}} should cover non-credible claims. A2soup (talk) 18:34, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Just take out the word "credible" and make it into "claim of significance". If the article has a non-credible or non-plausible claim of significance ("John Smith is the first person to eat an entire elephant in one sitting"), then tag it with {{db-hoax}}. --Ahecht (TALK
) 16:02, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I've looked at thousands of {{db-a7}} tagged pages, and my general philosophy is "if in doubt, don't" and "draft on request". AfD should go for cases where inclusion is difficult or controversial to justify, while A7 is for cases where inclusion is blatantly impossible beyond all reasonable doubt. On occasions I have been annoyed enough at people ranting at my talk asking why I removed an A7 tag for somebody who is "not notable" to think "okay, if you're so clever, let's abolish all policy and make you decide everything by fiat since your opinion is clearly more important than everyone else's" >:-( Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:49, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

  • People do tag the wrong things with A7, and I used to blame Page Curation for a lot of that (but I can't remember exactly why). That's no reason for scrapping or rewriting. The errors in that are clearly against the wording that gives what is and isn't liable. Things like tagging an article about a mobile phone with A7, for example. No way is that a valid A7. It might be a G11, a G12, or even a blatant hoax, but it cannot be A7, or A9 come to that. The problem with apps that is part of the reason we're in this thread is that they are downloaded software (not A7) used to access internet info (websites - liable to A7). An app is useless without a website, so is it 'part' of the website or merely downloaded software? IMO, it's not liable to A7, but I can see the argument for counting apps as part of the website paraphenalia of access. As to 'significant', another part is whether a 13 year old had a claim to significance for getting an unnamed award for solo musical work. No details given, except that the kid was in his school band (no significance there) and I would guess got a certificate form the school's Head of Music for his performance in the end of term concert. A young musical friend of mine regularly got things like that. The article went on to say he'd achieved a 'star' in Boy Scouts, and the only reference given was 'my butthole'. On Google, the kid's name comes up with three Facebook pages, the article, and an page talking about someone totally different. To my mind, a clear A7. Yes, there are semantic problems between significance and notability, and I don't think anyone is going to solve that to everyone's satisfaction. The review procedure is straightforward, and many people just post again (some actually asking for advice first...). Quite often when I've A7ed something, I refer the author to the notability and sourcing policies. There's no point in explaining significance vs notability as notability is the thing to prevent deletion at prod or AfD. Aiming merely to pass A7 is pointless. A7 is here to help prevent overload at AfD. We could always try suspending it for a couple of weeks to see what happened... Peridon (talk) 12:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I think the A7 clarification to the meaning of "lower standard" I suggested here would in some measure help with the issue this thread raises.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:56, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I see A7 misused all the time too, even by deleting admins. This is possibly because the chunk of text that is there is a bit of a kludge; we could clean it up, and personally I think that the "lower standard than notability" bit is only adding to the confusion. This should be as concise as we can make it. Here's an idea: (feel free to reformat this)

A7: No indication of importance

This applies to any article about a real person, individual animal(s), organization, web content or organized event that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This criterion does not apply if an article makes any credible claim of significance, regardless of notability or verifiability. If the claim is dubious or unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion.

This criterion applies only to articles about web content and to articles about people, organizations, and individual animals themselves, not to articles about their books, albums, software, or other creative works. The criterion also does not apply to educational institutions.[ref] This criterion does not apply to species of animals, only to individual animal(s).

  • {{Db-a7}}, {{Db-person}} – for people, {{Db-band}} – for bands, {{Db-club}} – for clubs, societies and groups, {{Db-inc}} – for companies, corporations and organizations, {{Db-web}} – for websites, {{Db-animal}} – for individual animals, {{Db-event}} – for events
  • If the claim of significance is credible, the A7 tag can not be applied, even if the claim does not meet the notability guidelines. Topics that seemed non-notable to new page patrollers have often been shown to be notable in deletion discussions.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivanvector (talkcontribs)

@Ivanvector: I disagree strongly with the language "If the claim is dubious or unclear...". Dubious and unclear claims are exactly the sort for which A7 is intended, "dubious" being nearly a perfect (albeit less precise) antonym of "credible". If a claim is dubious or unclear, i.e. not credible, A7 must apply. Proper language would be "If the claim is credible...[improve, prod, or AfD]". Let's stick to defining only one slippery term per slippery concept, please.
I also strongly disagree with "regardless of notability". If a claim is credibly true, but does not credibly indicate notability (E.g. "I have earned seven merit badges"), it must not be allowed to stand in the way of an obviously-called-for speedy deletion. Your sentence tries to disavow criterion (b) in Wikipedia:Credible claim of significance, to which it has just pointed! You simply cannot divorce notability from A7 without destroying the intent and usefulness of the tag and conflicting directly with Wikipedia:Credible claim of significance. Swpbtalk 15:38, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
A credible claim of significance should indicate at least the possibility of a finding of notability, but it need not establish notability, nor need it be sourced in any way. To that extent it is and should be "divorced" from the concept of notability. DES (talk) 16:10, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I said "credibly indicate notability", not establish. Credible indication of notability is absolutely vital. Swpbtalk 14:28, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

How about the following revised wording:

A7: No indication of importance

This applies to any article about a real person, individual animal(s), organization, web content or organized event that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This criterion does not apply if an article makes any credible claim of significance. The claim need not establish the notability of the topic, nor does it need to be sourced at all. If the claim is marginal or unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion. But unless the claim is clearly not credible, or clearly not a claim of significance, this criterion should not be applied.

This criterion applies only to articles about web content and to articles about people, organizations, and individual animals themselves, not to articles about their books, albums, software, or other creative works. The criterion also does not apply to educational institutions.[ref] This criterion does not apply to species of animals, only to individual animal(s).

  • {{Db-a7}}, {{Db-person}} – for people, {{Db-band}} – for bands, {{Db-club}} – for clubs, societies and groups, {{Db-inc}} – for companies, corporations and organizations, {{Db-web}} – for websites, {{Db-animal}} – for individual animals, {{Db-event}} – for events
  • If the claim of significance is credible, the A7 tag can not be applied, even if the claim does not meet the notability guidelines. Topics that seemed non-notable to new page patrollers have often been shown to be notable in deletion discussions.

I think that covers things well enough. DES (talk) 16:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:I wouldn't know him from a hole in the ground is a good essay that explains a suitable thought process for this. To take an example, consider Daniel Bogado as I found it. This is clearly not a candidate for A7 as although unsourced, it mentions several television programmes and awards. This gave me enough to type these phrases into Google and easily find reliable sources to prove the article met our inclusion criteria - the fact it subsequently hit the main page via "Did you Know"? would seem to bear this out.

I like DES' wording; the only thing I would add is that BLPs can be sent to BLPPROD if unsourced, even if they may be notable. I completely disagree with the view that "Dubious and unclear claims are exactly the sort for which A7 is intended" - that's what I would send to PROD / AfD, and would instead say "Blatantly unworthy claims are exactly the sort of for which A7 is intended". Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:24, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

No, DES, the above does not solve the problem, because it requires only credibility, while accepting any (italics yours) claim of significance. That is the crux of the matter. We need to define the "claim of significance" to at least be specific (not vague like "prize winning" or "one of the best") and of sufficient magnitude that there is at least some chance that it could justify inclusion in an international encyclopedia. I can show you many recent examples where totally vague and trivial "claims of significance" were used to remove an A7 tag. --MelanieN (talk) 16:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Which to me isn't a problem. Even if the claim is trivial as hell, then it can be prodded or taken to AFD where people can discuss whether the claim is trivial or not. This is a speedy criteria, meaning something that no one would really dispute doesn't belong here, something that can be deleted without notice and an opportunity to object. If we deleted every claim of a certain type because it is "trivial" without an actual discussion about it, we'll never know if the actual consensus forms to treat the claim as not trivial and thus to keep these pages. For example, Wikipedia:WikiProject World's Oldest People/Article alerts is now regularly debating articles such as Anders Engberg in which the claim is "this guy lived to 111 years old and was the oldest man ever in Sweden". There are pages on "the oldest person ever born in the British Raj", "oldest person ever born in the state of Illinois from 1999 until 2011" Is that trivial? Is that a legitimate claim? Those are all claims, ones I find silly for a separate article on each person but they all get discussions and debates and some get deleted, some get kept and some get turned into redirects to a "List of"-type page. Same thing with any criteria. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:53, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

The "Credible claim of significance" essay[edit]

Thanks for starting this discussion, Adam. The confusion between "significance" and "notability" is reflected in the essay Wikipedia:Credible claim of significance, which is internally contradictory. At first it says "A claim of significance need not amount to a statement that, if sourced, would establish notability." That reflects the wording at A7: "The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source or does not qualify on Wikipedia's notability guidelines. " But the "credible claim of significance" essay later modifies that statement in several places - for example "A good mental test is to consider each part discretely: a) is this reasonably plausible? and b) assuming this were true, would this (or something that 'this' might plausibly imply) cause a person to be notable?" and "Conversely, an article describing a subject whose main claim to fame is that they've been the top of their class for the last four years would pass a, since it's quite plausible for that to be true, but not pass b, since that kind of thing is not likely to lead to notability." Notice the word "notable". The guideline also defines a claim of significance as "Any statement which, if reliably sourced, would be likely to persuade some of the commentators at a typical articles for deletion discussion to keep the article" - which of course would mean that some people would find the subject to be notable. These examples suggest that there has to be some requirement that the claim of significance is itself significant, and that potential notability is at least implied by the claim.

Differences between editors arise because some people subscribe to the more nuanced version given in the examples, while others follow only the extremely limiting summary at A7, which they interpret it to mean that ANY claim of significance - no matter how vague, no matter how trivial - means you can't apply A7. I have recently seen this interpretation invoked to remove the A7 tag from this article: "He is a thirteen year old student at Fairfield Middle School. He is in the band and plays the tenor saxophone in the school band and enjoys playing jazz. Last year he even won an advanced soloist award. He is also in the Boy Scouts and has achieved the rank of star." And this one: "National Under 15 footballer of Trinidad and Tobago. He is a short boy but dangerous when the ball is at his feet. He grew up in the area of Morvant he is a good young man from where he is from he goes to church he also played for his church Daybreak United he now attend Success Laventille Secondary School he is the starting right winger he also plays with Ron La Forest Soccer Academy." And this one: "(subject) is one the best DotA2 players.He is 17 years old and plays for Newbee Diablos." To me these are classic examples of why we have A7.

Based on this I think the guideline needs to clarify that the claim of significance must not only be credible; it must also be specific (not vague like "prize winning" or "one of the best"), and it must be of sufficient magnitude that there is at least some chance that it could justify inclusion in an international encyclopedia. Everyone in the world, and every company, could claim SOMETHING unique or significant about themselves. If A7 is to be of any use at all, the claim has to be something that, if properly sourced, might conceivably qualify the subject for an article here. --MelanieN (talk) 16:32, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The speedy deletion criteria should be as specific as possible - it should be possible at a quick glance to determine if any criterion applies or not. If there's doubt about whether or not a criterion applies, then there should be a discussion instead. The "more nuanced version" given in the CCS essay has made this criterion open to subjective evaluation, which gives rise to the differences between editors that MelanieN describes, and which is apparent above; not to mention the editors who will simply say that essays are not policy and ignore it. We really should do away with the essay, or at least summarize its intent within the A7 definition as much as we can, otherwise this confusion will continue. So, can we come up with a bright-line rule for what makes a claim of significance? Or should we replace that language altogether, and with what? Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 18:07, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I started a discussion partially about this at the village pump some months ago. There, I proposed to define a "claim of significance" as a "claim to belong to a category the members of which are often notable". As I recall, however, consensus was that this criterion was too permissive. Still, I thought it was relevant to bring up here, since it is an attempt at a bright-line definition of claim of significance. I would also recommend dropping the "credible" since it makes people think sources are relevant (see discussion near the top of this thread). A2soup (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
@A2soup: Too permissive? Huh? Actually, that criterion (which I like) is much LESS permissive than the current "any credible claim of significance". Suggesting that the claim at least put the subject into a potentially notable group would allow us to A7 claims like "one of the first companies to offer this product in this area" and "was named to the city high school all-star team" - which are arguably claims of significance under the current language. I would certainly support some language like that. --MelanieN (talk) 19:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Glad you like it! I'm just giving my recollection of how the discussion went. People focused on things like footballers and actors. But it was more nuanced than that-- you can read the discussion if you are interested is what the response was. A2soup (talk) 19:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
That is no better than accepting any claim at all. Every musician in the world can "claim to belong to a category the members of which are often notable". There must be nothing less than a credible claim that this subject is significant; a claim that similar subjects often are significant is worthless. I appreciate your desire for a bright line, but this isn't it. For firmly establishing notability, we have subject-specific criteria (WP:MUSIC, WP:ATHLETE). For speedies, then, "credible claim of significance" should mean "credible chance of meeting the appropriate subject-specific firm criteria". Swpbtalk 21:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, this is the problem people had before, and it is a real problem I think. How about this for a different bright line-- change credible claim of significance to indication of possible notability, then define the latter term like this: "An indication of possible notability is a statement that, if true, could be legitimately used as part of an argument in favor of a Keep vote at WP:AfD. It does not matter whether a full argument for a Keep vote is possible with the present facts, whether the final decision would be likely to be Keep, or whether the balance of the present facts lean towards Keep, only that the individual statement could legitimately be cited as part of an argument for a Keep vote." It is bright-line, and I think it strikes a good balance, but I worry that it is inaccessible to new editors. Thoughts? A2soup (talk) 00:22, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
The word "possible" is far too permissive. Anything is possible. "Credible" is exactly the right balance point; it implies the application of common sense. Swpbtalk 14:31, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
MelanieN's final sentence sums things up perfectly: "If A7 is to be of any use at all". All 7+ billion of us can make credibly true claims about ourselves. If we don't require those claims to carry a real chance of notability, then we get the sort of absurd A7 tag-removals that Melanie has cited. Under current practice, such articles are (usually) speedied, as they should be. There isn't a problem with consensus practice; there's a problem with the text of A7, in that it (apparently) leaves room for the sort of disingenuous "don't speedy anything" selective interpretation that resulted in speedy tags being removed from the utterly speediable pages that Melanie cited. Swpbtalk 19:04, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I agree that the "don't speedy anything" interpretation is problematic, but, respectfully, there are real issues with consensus practice. Here is an album with screenshots of a few pages that were A7 speedied last summer (just what I noticed on occasion, not an exhaustive survey or anything). Do you agree that those pages deserve at least a PROD? And yet, they were all deleted by highly experienced sysops, including the most prolific speedy deleter on enwiki. A2soup (talk) 19:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I have to say - most or all of these look like incorrect speedies to me. Chunky Rice (talk) 19:34, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
There are improper speedies, but they are not the norm; in attempting to get rid of the few speedies that really do violate the current criteria, the proposed changes invite a flood of time-wasting prods and AfDs for utter junk. I'll stick with the lesser evil. Making plausible notability irrelevant is cutting off the nose to spite the face. Swpbtalk 21:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
In my experience patrolling Category:CSD, from 1/2 to 2/3rds of the A7 speedy tags I find are improper and I decline them, and from 1/3 to 1/2 of all speedy tags are improper. A7 is perhaps the most overused and mis-used criterion in the CSD. (I include A9 as a variant of A7.) ("No Context" and "Patent Nonsense" are also frequently mis-used.) I remember the debates when A7 was introduced: the fist version applied only to bands. But in all of those debates a key point was that an article did not have to establish notability to avoid an A7 speedy, that A7 was a different and lower standard, having little to do with notability. There was never consensus to insist on demonstration of notability, because notability is not something that can be properly evaluated by one or two people.
I think that the WP:CCS does a pretty good job of describing the correct meaning of the criterion as it was adopted, and as it should stand. Not every claim of "something special" about a person or thing is a claim of significance. I would say that a statement which, if sourced, would establish notability, or one which, if sourced, would suggest that notability might be present, is a claim of significance. "Plausible or credible" should not be taken to mean "sourced", it should be understood as "not incredible on its face", or "reasonably believable". Such a claim may be proved false, in which case a speedy for hoax might apply. Or it might not lead to notability, in which case an AfD or perhaps a PROD will lead to deletion. Or the page might be overly promotional, and be deleted for that reason. But an A7 will not apply as long as such a plausible claim of significance is present. DES (talk) 22:43, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Re improper speedies: I understand that most speedies are not improper, but when the most experienced speedy deleters are making mistakes like this (and I emphasize that the album represents just 1 or 2 checks a day for a week, plus on one additional day) doesn't it indicate a problem with the consensus procedure? I would suggest that this problematic consensus procedure thrives on ambiguities in the current wording of A7 that can and should be eliminated. A2soup (talk) 00:09, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Before I say or do anything else, I feel I should explain precisely how I'm interpreting A7 as it stands:

It is not about non-notability; it is about there being a lack of credible indication as to why it might be Wikipedia-worthy. As to what constitutes such an indication, judging by WP:Credible claim of significance (and everything else I've read about it), I believe it means any claim that, upon further investigation, might establish notability, assuming such notability exists. I think this is the part a lot of editors don't understand; A7 does not care whether or not such notability actually does exist or not; if the claim may lead to notability, it's significant. As for credibility, any reasonable claim of significance that is not blatantly false is credible. Not too long ago, I saw an article about a person, and there was a claim that the person was the first person born on Mars. That is clearly not true and therefore is not a credible claim of significance, even though if it was true, it would indeed almost certainly establish notability. As it is, such a claim clearly has absolutely no chance of establishing notability. None. Zero. Zilch. Despite that however, someone actually did seem to think it was credible (either that or he missed that part of the criterion), and changed its A7 tag to a G3 (I don't remember which criterion the artice was deleted under). Going back to the "award-winning" example (see my talk page), although that claim is a little vague, I believe it still has a reasonable chance of establishing notability if one digs deep enough (how deep depends on the subject, and how specific the claim is of course) into it, therefore I believe that claim is a credible claim of significance. However, had it said something like "won first prize in a school sports competition", that would be an A7 as that's clearly nowhere near significant because it has no chance of establishing notability. The term "award-winning" could easily mean something much more major, and therefore I think it is a credible claim of significance. Same with Jackson William Cowan and his "advanced soloist award". I think this is a case of where less is more. As for Nedim Malicbegovic, I think the claim is both credible and of significance, because the game is notable enough for a Wikipedia article, and him being one of the best players may well establish notability (again, assuming such notability exists). As it is, he's clearly not notable (that being said however, I do think obvious cases of non-notability should be speediable. The problem is that A7 doesn't actually do that. How about a new criterion; A12 - Obviously not notable? Then we can get rid of articles like this one quickly).

Speaking of non-notability, a few days ago (before this began) I removed several A7 tags applied by SwisterTwister because he seemed to be doing so on notability and/or verifiability grounds. The prime example being Apologies, I Have None; I can see 1 (possibly 2) clear credible claim(s) of significance in the History section. I don't know if the band is notable or not, but it's certainly not obviously non-notable. Non-notability seems to be a common A7 misconception; it's about the claim of significance. I've seen articles deleted under A7 which I could have sworn made at least one of the claims listed here (Apologies, I Have None clearly makes the "Has received airplay on larger radio stations" claim). Adam9007 (talk) 02:00, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

To my mind, some of that is virtually saying that unless it's a blatant hoax, A7 doesn't apply. "Bowser is a dog that has lived with the Bloggs family for 10 years. He has been a great companion for the kids as they grew up. When Tiddles, the cat from next door, went missing, he found her stuck in a bramble bush." Very likely to be totally true. But is it encyclopaedia material? As to the 13 year old with the award, if the award were of any real significance it would have been named - and the article would not have been referenced to "My butthole". The 'star' in Scouting was named specifically, and is a good award - but not of encyclopaedic significance, and nor is the much higher Eagle Scout (or the Queen's Scout award over here). This looks to me very much like one of the thousands of kids who post pages about themselves. I'd be happy to be proved wrong. I can't find anything on Google, either under "Jackson William Cowan", or "Jackson Cowan" saxophone, or "William Cowan" saxophone. I like to check things, remembering Bobble-head doll syndrome, which was tagged 'hoax'. Google presence is not a be all and end all, and I might have missed something. At the moment, I can't even find three Facebook links that I saw at the time, and which appeared to be the only evidence of existence, let alone significance. Peridon (talk) 13:08, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
You are the only person here, and perhaps the only person on the wiki, who doesn't agree that a page like "Jackson William Cowan" should be speedied. A7 will always apply to such a worthless page. As I explained on your talk page, when literally everyone disagrees with you, you should stop digging. Swpbtalk 15:22, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Swpb: what's the point of your aggressive tone here? This is a discussion about how to improve the policy language so that it's clearer that pages like that qualify and are speediable. If you don't want to contribute to the discussion but just lambaste other editors' interpretations and suggestions with unwarranted insults, kindly go away. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:51, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Excuse me, but everything I said is true and relevant. This editor has been repeatedly disruptive, and must understand in no uncertain terms that his particular view is utterly without support, and is not on the table; that is the only way anything productive can occur here. Swpbtalk 16:26, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
@Swpb: I think you are wrong to describe Adam's good-faith disagreement over criteria as "disruptive". I would suggest you strike or delete that word. It is not helpful or relevant, and in fact is likely to derail this discussion. (If you delete it, delete this comment also.) --MelanieN (talk) 16:47, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
@Swpb:Just because one particular viewpoint is the most common, doesn't mean any other viewpoints are invalid. After reading the A7 documentation (for want of a better word) and related pages, it seems much of it is open to interpretation. If this is the case, this is where the problem lies, not with me. Just because I'm interpreting it differently to you, doesn't mean I'm willingly going against consensus (who makes the criteria? The community. If we can't come up with wording that makes its meaning clear and concise, conflicts like this are inevitable), nor does it mean I'm incompetent. I should point out that even here, there are different viewpoints and interpretations of it, all perfectly valid. Although I'm not a total newbie, your response to my A7 tag removals was a clear WP:BITE violation, as you didn't really try to point out where or how you thought I went wrong; you immediately came down on me like a ton of bricks. Peridon was telling me I should go for the spirit rather than the letter; I think the letter should reflect the spirit, rather than the spirit ignoring the letter, because the letter means nothing if it happens too often. You may believe non-admin removal of speedy deletion tags (for whatever reason) is disruptive, but it seems hardly anyone else agrees with you; otherwise only admins would be allowed to do it. It is made clear we may do so if we disagree. I disagreed and did so on multiple occasions. I don't see what I've done that's against policy. Adam9007 (talk) 00:54, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Adam, thanks for explaining your understanding in detail. I continue to think that a "claim of significance" (and we are not saying the article has to meet WP:GNG as it stands) must include at least some sort of detail or specificity. "Award winning" or "one of the best" is not enough, it must say WHAT award, or how they have been SHOWN to be one of the best, aside from the opinion of the article's author. Then we can evaluate whether the claim of significance is actually significant or if it is trivial. If the claim is vague, the article qualifies for A7. And if it is trivial ("he won an award at the school's music festival" or "he won in a local video game tournament"), it qualifies for A7. I have always thought this was obvious, just common sense, and did not need spelling out. But since you believe, in good faith, that it amounts to an actual claim of significance to say a 13 year old has won an unspecified music award, or that a 17 year old is "one of the best" players of a video game, maybe "significance" needs to be clarified. To me it is totally obvious that things like this are never going to be Wikipedia articles and should be gotten rid of as soon as possible; that's what speedy deletion is for. And it appears most people agree that A7 applies in both of these cases. The musician kid was speedied. The video game player was speedied, reverted at your request, taken to AfD, and snow deleted. Clearly most people do think that A7 applies to cases like this. Must we change the wording, clarify what "significance" means, on your account alone? Or might it be possible to persuade you to accept the consensus understanding of significance? --MelanieN (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
FWIW I understand Peridon's position, as I happen to share that view of the letter of the policy, but obviously it currently does not reflect standard practice and we should correct it so that it does. I've never understood A7 to require any kind of specificity, only some statement about why it's important that we know about a subject, which is so that articles which are about things that are clearly not important can be deleted without discussion. Vague language like "award-winning" and "one of the best" indicates significance, because the supposed award could be a major one, and we frequently write about people who are the best at things, but it does not indicate credibility necessarily. A question I have is: what exactly are we trying to do with this criterion? Is it for any page that doesn't meet WP:GNG? The policy refers to a "lower standard", but how much lower? Is it for topics which clearly aren't encyclopedic? And how do we determine that without discussion? As it's stated now, it encourages reviewers to make snap judgements about big-N Notability on brand-new articles, and that doesn't seem right. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:13, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Re-reading some of the above comments, maybe the wording should be changed to "any credible claim which, if it were true, could establish notability". That seems to be the interpretation we're coming around to here. I used "could" deliberately - if a topic could be notable, then discussion is warranted. Then A7 catches the cases where a topic is clearly non-notable (my neighbour's cat) as well as those which are obviously false (the first person born on Mars) which I think is the intent. I guess the language here does not need to be clear to newbies, they're not going to read it before they try to make an article anyway, it should just make the criterion clear for the people who are applying it, as well as for the people (like me) who occasionally go around removing improperly applied criteria. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I like that, but I am not in agreement that vague claims should be taken seriously as indications of possible significance. And "could" establish notability may be too strong a requirement. How about "any specific, credible claim which, if verified, might establish notability"? --MelanieN (talk) 16:32, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Possibly it IS the 'credible' bit that's the real sticking point. There are people who write to soap opera characters. There are those (not so many now) who believe the Earth is flat. There are people who believe Man has not walked on the Moon (despite the to me obvious problem of keeping thousands of NASA and other workers quiet for all this time without shooting them all, and then having to keep the execution squad quiet etc etc). If the award had been listed as 'American Saxophone Society Young Soloist of the Year', I would accept that as a claim of significance (until it emerged later that the society was founded last year and has three members. An unnamed award is to me not a claim of significance in itself as it could equally well (or perhaps more so) be a school award. And, personally, I would treat anything in an article referenced solely to 'My butthole' with grave suspicion. Peridon (talk) 17:11, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Oh, no, just to be clear I mean that vague claims indicate significance as the policy is currently worded, not that that should be the case. I don't think that "could" is too strong a requirement, because the criterion applies to the opposite: a claim which could not establish notability. An article containing the claim "Guy Mansmith is the manager of the Wal-mart in Shreveport, Texas" is both significant and credible by various interpretations (or at least it's open to various interpretations) yet there's absolutely no way that this could establish notability on its own, even if it were reliably sourced. Peridon, I think this criterion doesn't need to catch all of those examples, we already have WP:A3 for people who write letters to TV characters, for example, and I think WP:G3 or WP:A11 apply to anything referenced to 'My butthole'. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:43, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I didn't mean people writing letters here - I meant there are people that think the soap characters are real. What's quite credible to them is not credible to us. A11 is for things made up, but there is an element of good faith (and also 'can't prove either way') in it. It's for things like 'Vodka Pong' invented by Herbert Jones two days age (and merely being a version of Beer Pong that flattens you quicker), or the word 'Squoddelity', which is widely used (in Class 3B at Bungwood Junior School) and means 'French toast', 'the feeling you get when you see the school bus disappearing round the corner', or 'over ripe lemons'. (These are fictional - the real A11s are very little different.) The game and the word may be real - but outside Herbert's five friends or Class 3B no-one knows or cares. Hoaxes are deliberate misinformation, and are intended to devalue the encyclopaedia, or prove a point (usually, that Wikipedia is inaccurate - these can come from university professors rather than students), or simply make the author look clever to his equally stupid mates. Peridon (talk) 18:16, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

(Out-dent) WP:G11 is a the lazy catch-all that's used a lot. Your "Vodka Pong"s and the like can also fall under the same issues as WP:GARAGE covers, and the result is WP:G11 or it will be taken to AFD. To me the point is is there a claim that someone will bring up at an AFD as a basis for notability? If so, fine it won't be speedy deleted, it'll be discussed and then deleted. An extra seven days but not terrible (you should see how WP:MFD discussions go). I always found that the A7 new page patrolling deletions never accomplish a ton as the person who created it will invariably ask to recreate it or draft it or whatever and if done, it'll probably languish until Category:Userspace drafts can clear out the nonsense from 2005. I'd rather take it to AFD and just have the argument, it can be deleted with sufficient speed there if need be but at least everyone has a chance to discuss their content and recreating it will be easier to justify WP:G4ing it. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:04, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

@MelanieN:To me, the fact that a vague claim could be something major makes it a claim of significance. Take "award-winning". When I see the word 'award' used in such a context, I think big awards along the lines of "Gold award for achievement xyz" or a major "something of the year" award, not some trivial "first place in some minor competition" prize. One brand of cheese I often buy has a "Gold Award" from the Nantwich International Cheese Awards. I know A7 doesn't cover foods, but that's the sort of thing I think of when I see the term "award-winning". I've won a few awards, though nothing of particular note. Because they're not of note, I'd hardly describe myself as "award-winning", as that's not what springs to mind when I see or hear the term. "One of the best" may or may not be significant to me; best at what? Best at snap? No. Best at Poker or Blackjack? Maybe. Best at Minesweeper? No. Best at Call of Duty or Gears of War? Maybe. Unless a particularly significant achievement is claimed (such as playing for 6 weeks straight or amassing a quadrillion points in 5 minutes, merely being "one of the best" at some things is likely to be insignificant. I'd say that A7's wording doesn't reflect the community's interpretation of it as I understand it. Whether it's the significance bit, or the credibility bit, or the entire wording, I'm not sure. It could be (I'm not saying it is) we merely need to add the word "specific(ly)" into the mix somewhere. Adam9007 (talk) 03:59, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

If you think an unspecified claim of "prize winning" is probably significant or means a big award, I think you are falling for a common commercial/personal scam. If the company or person had actually won a major award (Gold medal at the Great American Beer Festival! First place in America's Got Talent! Won the Goren Trophy at the spring 2010 North American Bridge Championships!), the person writing the article would certainly say so. In my rather long experience, "prize winning" without details almost always means some utterly trivial prize - what you aptly describe as "first place in some minor competition" (Most popular hair salon in this shopping mall! Listed in a Who's Who knockoff! Won a commendation at the school's Solo and Ensemble Festival!). As you said, you can think of reasons to call yourself "award winning" - and if somebody was writing an article about you, they might well do so. In my experience it usually means next to nothing - just hype. Remember that an awful lot of articles are written by people who are trying very hard to make their person, company, band, etc. look good. --MelanieN (talk) 04:45, 27 November 2015 (UTC)