Talk:Sound recording copyright symbol

Requested Move

Sound recording copyright symbol → Phonorecord Symbol – This page conflates two different concepts: the sound recording copyright, and phonorecords. I will rewrite it to reflect the law more accurately, and propose this renaming/move to accompany the rewrite. Mgcsinc (talk) 06:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

• You've listed this RM on what appears to be a third page. You probably meant to list this proposal at Talk:Sound recording copyright symbol, or intended to merge Sound recording copyright symbol here. Or did you really mean to create Phonorecord Symbol with that capitalization? --BDD (talk) 17:57, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose (and undid premature move made before conclusion of this RM). The symbol denotes the copyright in the sound recording, see 17 USC 402(a); not in the phonorecord. The sound recording is the copyrighted work that represents the recorded performance. The "phonorecord" is the physical object (CD, cassette tape, whatever) that embodies the sound recording. The symbol does not pertain to the physical object (although the physical object is necessarily the medium on which it appears, obviously), it pertains to the copyrighted work, the sound recording. TJRC (talk) 19:07, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. Sorry if I broke decorum by moving early -- some number of years ago, I listed a page for a move and was told to be more aggressive about it, and didn't remember that lesson until tonight. I will leave it here now until the conclusion of the discussion.

    In any case, the proper term for this mark -- and in fact, what distinguishes it from the normal copyright mark -- is that it attaches to phonorecords rather than copies. Hence, P in a circle rather than C. Here's the explanation from a US Copyright Office circular: "The 'C in a circle' notice is used only on 'visually perceptible' copies. Certain kinds of works, such as musical, dramatic, and literary works, may be fixed not in “copies” but by means of sound in an audiorecording. Since audiorecordings such as audiotapes and phonograph disks are 'phonorecords' and not 'copies,' the 'C in a circle' notice is not used to indicate protection of the underlying musical, dramatic, or literary work that is recorded." So, when the notice is affixed to a phonorecord, regardless of the nature of the underlying work, the phonorecord symbol (P in a circle) is used. This article confuses the issues, and hence my attempt to fix it. For more information see Copyright Circular 3: [1] . - Mgcsinc (talk) 04:42, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

You're really misunderstandings this material. Which would be okay, except you keep editing the article to incorporate your misunderstandings into it.

Start with Sections 401-402 of the US copyright Act, which you can find here: [2]. Section 401 deals with the ordinary copyright notice, for non-sound recordings. It's largely based on a similar provision in the 1909 Act, well before US law recognized sound recordings as subject to copyright. Its notice uses the © character. Section 402 deals with notice for sound recordings. Its notice uses the ℗ symbol.

The "P" in the circle does not come from "phonorecord," as you have added a couple of times. As the article explains, it comes from "phonogram", which is the term used outside the United States for what we call "sound recording": the work not the physical thing. I've added a couple cites to make that more evident for you.

The touchstone is not the type of media it's placed on. Yes, it's true that it gets placed on phonorecords, but that is a consequence of the fact that the term "phonorecord" is the term for physical things that embody sound recordings. The subject of the notice, including the symbol, is the work, not the physical medium.

Nothing in the Copyright Office Circular is contrary to that. The Circular is saying the notice goes on a phonorecord, because it does: the phonorecord is the object that holds the sound recording that the notice pertains to.

Nimmer makes this clear, too: "After the Sound Recording Act of 1971 a special form of notice using the symbol ℗ was provided under the 1909 Act to be placed upon phonorecords, but this was only for the protection of the sound recordings not the literary and musical works embodied in such phonorecords." Nimmer on Copyright, Vol. 2, § 7.12[B]. This is contrary to your contention that the symbol covers anything on a phonorecords, whether a sound recording or not.

Note that the ℗ symbol is not limited to the US "phonorecords" as you suggest. The symbol was present in the Geneva Phonograms Convention as well:

If, as a condition of protecting the producers of phonograms, a Contracting State, under its domestic law, requires compliance with formalities, these shall be considered as fulfilled if all the authorized duplicates of the phonogram distributed to the public or their containers bear a notice consisting of the symbol ℗, accompanied by the year date of the first publication, placed in such manner as to give reasonable notice of claim of protection; and, if the duplicates or their containers do not identify the producer, his successor in title or the exclusive licensee (by carrying his name, trademark or other appropriate designation), the notice shall also include the name of the producer, his successor in title or the exclusive licensee.

See the GPC, Article 5 (you may need to find a print copy to see the symbol rendered correctly). No mention of "phonorecord" at all. It covers the phonogram, i.e., the sound recording. TJRC (talk) 02:00, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

You and I clearly read Section 402 differently. I admit that I hadn't bothered to look at what Nimmer has to say about this, but Nimmer's understanding runs directly contrary to the Copyright Office's own unambiguous position on the issue (not that it has a whole lot in the way of say in the matter): "Certain kinds of works, such as musical, dramatic, and literary works, may be fixed not in 'copies' but by means of sound in an audiorecording. Since audiorecordings such as audiotapes and phonograph disks are 'phonorecords' and not 'copies,'the 'C in a circle' notice is not used to indicate protection of the underlying musical, dramatic, or literary work that is recorded." If you think that is not consistent with my understanding of the issue, then I think we just speak a different language or something. Everything I've ever known about the issue, and the only reasonable reading of the law and that Circular, says that the distinction has to do with the nature of the copy, not the underlying work. Nothing in the secondary sources you've cited here is going to convince me that the plain-English readings of those primary sources is wrong.

I also admit ignorance as to the international issues -- there, you may very well be right. But my understanding is that this whole regime originated in the US, where the law makes no mention of "phonograms," and where the distinction when it originated was as I've laid out.

All of this said, I don't have the wherewithal to deal with this, as I am in a particularly busy time in my life, so this will probably die. - Mgcsinc (talk) 02:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, I'd love to see some contemporaneous-with-creation source that says the P came from the word "phonogram." The Unicode people, at the very least, agree with me: [3] (see 2117, alt name "phonorecord symbol"). I'm pretty sure that claims that the P stands for "phonogram," at least in the U.S., are revisionist.