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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 24.101.172.61 (talk) at 02:19, 15 September 2012 (→‎National Socialism should be included here). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Socialism Versus Communism and the Political Science Lie

The entire article on socialism emphasizes state and public ownership for the means of production and industry, however that is formal communism!

Socialism is the actions of government to assure affluence of its citizens.

A primary method of socialism to achieve its goals is through elements of a state directed economy, but it assures private ownership!

The article is a political science farce! and an intellectual lie! that communism and socialism are synonymous!

The Americam School of economics and Alexander Hamilton's Report on Manufactures are nowhere to be found on the page and they cannot be included in such pathetic tripe, even though they are the proper examples of socialism!

Wikipedia should be ashamed of itself for pandering to this intellectualy devoid, garbage pile of moronic laden, disinformation!!!

GeMiJa (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mainstream writers to not consider Hamilton's views to be socialist. TFD (talk) 13:34, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hamilton's views are also seen as contrary to classical economics. There are many comments above directing socialism towards private ownership and away from communism. It leads one to wonder whether contemporary qualifiers are a cooperation of ignorance between extremes: economic libertarians who want to create a villain; and, economic authoritarians willing to accept the role of villain. Either way, the representation is a degenerate direction for political reasoning! GeMiJa (talk) 14:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Too much confusion here. When in doubt, go back to what Marx said. First capitalism, then socialism, then communism (or some sort of self-governing utopia not well defined.) This never implied that capitalism was not part of the other three, and in fact is. Capitalism is micro-socialism, but where the means of production are controlled by an elite few, a private aristocracy. Socialism if state-owned, a public aristocracy, then ideally might be controlled by more democratic means. Communism is by Marx total self-government in small community, or community controlled production more like Native Americans or feudal times under Christianity. (Socialism, after all has two origins, from the social teachings of Christ, and the teachings of Plato and the later Roman Empire.)
Now, dispense with the prejudices. There is no valid reason why a private aristocracy is better than a public one, that has never been proven. Both have their merits, and both have their faults. The real question is economics, which in itself is subject to sociology, psychology, political science, and most of all, human nature. Can the economy be centrally controlled, or not? Until this can be answered, none of the isms matter. And history, and evolution, and natural selection in human nature (not the same as animal natural selection, mind you, but intellectual natural selection) all answer this decisively once the scientific data (history) is evaluated. The answer is, the economy can no more be centrally controlled with any degree of efficiency than biology. People's everyday personal decisions cannot be controlled, which is all economics is, the matter of choice. Thus, communism (or community-controlled economics) is valid, since villages and small communities are best suited to manage their own affairs. The bad news is, Christians and Colonial Americans beat Marx to it by centuries, and Marx failed to grasp that without the morality to keep this system cohesive, it will fall apart like all the rest.
Hope that illuminated some issues here. Jcchat66 (talk) 19:52, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

I'm not quite sure, could you look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Socialism&diff=500675309&oldid=500397921 . Thanks in advance! Cyklopas (talk) 09:08, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't look like vandalism to me. The editor replaced details of the first 2012 election with details of the second. Quite legitimate and acceptable. RolandR (talk) 09:28, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Primary (and dubious) source citing general statement

An IP removed these sources without any edit summary and they were correctly reverted. However on further review the statement in question is a very broad generalisation on socialists in general.

I am not going to make an assesment whether the claim is true, but speaking from a Wikipedia point of view such a general statement should be sourced with reliable secondary sources that apply to the view stated, and the claim should be accurately worded to represent the sources. However the only sources backing up that particular claim, a claim involving all socialists, are two primary sources, one of them of a proto-socialist writing in 1803, long before there was even such a thing as socialism.

That one certainly is not a good source for such a statement. The second one is Marx, and while Marx must be considered a good primary source, there are socialists not adhering to all his writings, and it is generally better to have secondary sources for such generalising claims. So I am going to delete the citations for this statement and replace them with a citation needed. Someone recently placed an issues template on this article, and I can see how that was very warranted indeed, this is most likely just one issue out of many in this article. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

National Socialism should be included here

NOT SURE WHY THIS IS TAKEN OFF THE TALK PAGE OTHER THEN CENSORSHIP

Hitler Was A Socialist, (And Not A Right Wing Conservative). Like many others with a political axe to grind by labeling the Nazi Party as right wing, I will not go to their material but to the very source, NAZI GERMANY and the quotes the NAZIS made in their own words. 

1. From Hitler’s bio Mein Kampf

from Volume 2: Chapter VII:

In 1919-20 and also in 1921 I attended some of the bourgeois [capitalist] meetings. Invariably I had the same feeling towards these as towards the compulsory dose of castor oil in my boyhood days.

(Trashing Capitalism) 

2. Hitler, spoken to Otto Strasser, Berlin, May 21, 1930:

I am a Socialist, and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend, Count Reventlow. . . . What you understand by Socialism is nothing more than Marxism.

(Comparing his theories to Marxism)

3. Gregor Strasser, National Socialist theologian, said: 

We National Socialists are enemies, deadly enemies, of the present capitalist system with its exploitation
of the economically weak … and we are resolved under all circumstances to destroy this system.

(NAZI SAYING CAPITALIST ARE ENEMIES)

4. Nazi Policy that resembles socialism Labour Law of January 20, 1934, the state would exert direct influence and control over all business employing more than twenty persons.

(STATE CONTROL OVER BUSINESS)

5. Some Left wing material of the time. Hitler was named "Man of the Year" in 1938 by Time Magazine. They noted Hitler's anti-capitalistic economic policies:

"Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany's bourgeois economic structure from radicalism."

(TIME MAG PATTING HILTER ON THE BACK FOR TRICKING CAPITALISTS)

6. Hitler from 1933 speech on putting people as a whole over the Individual

"It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole ... that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual. .... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture .... we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow man." (Adolph Hitler, 1933)

sounds a lot like this (although alot less windy)

We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." (Hillary Clinton, 1993)

IN CLOSING

There are countless more statements and policies and stories written that support Hitler was anti capatilism and was a socialist. I do not contend that National Socialism (NAZI PARTY) is a pure from of socialism but according to the original players in Nazi Germany they not only indentified themselves as Socialist but put it in action.

I suggest National Socialism does indeed belong on this page. 24.101.172.61 (talk) 03:22, 13 September 2012 (UTC) 24.101.172.61 (talk) 03:37, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

this conversation comes up every few months, perhaps we should form some consensus to include both sides of the debate in the article. Darkstar1st (talk) 06:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It comes up every few months 'cause that is what trolls do. Its been resolved unless someone brings new evidence. The Hillary Clinton comment is a bit of a give away if you didn't spot it. ----Snowded TALK 07:14, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While we can agree that Hitler's National Socialism is not part of the socialism that this article is discussing, National Socialism was a real political movement with the word Socialism in its name. This article should at least have content saying what I've just said. Once it's in the article, questions like the OP's will either cease, or can be simply referred to the article. HiLo48 (talk) 07:42, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, all economies are to some extent mixed. If someone really wanted they could make it seem as though the Soviet Union was capitalist because of the NEP, or other similar policies. The Soviet Union was obviously not capitalist, though some would argue that it was also not fully communist either. Point being, one can pull random facts and quotes to form whatever kind of truth one desires. What I would like to see is a something from a substantial scholarly thesis supporting that National Socialism is indeed socialism, rather than blurbs taken out of context from stuff said by Hitler and some other nazi. I am doubtful that such a source exists. I also think the Clinton quote is not really relevant at all, and detracts from the argument by making it appear as a biased attack of some form........... back on topic. My understanding is that personal theories are not to be shared in Wikipedia articles, and that wikipedia is more of a medium to present accepted definitions and versions of theories/histories/odds and ends/etc. If a person wants to share their version of history or a new theory on a definition, the usual forum is a blog or writing up a formal thesis and presenting it for review by peers and for publication (and then once accepted may be added to wikipedia), i reckon. But, if what I reckon is incorrect, well then, theorize away, I guess.AnieHall (talk) 08:08, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, found something you may enjoy, an entire Wikipedia article on this very debate: Economy of Nazi Germany.AnieHall (talk) 08:23, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just because someone has never read Nazi materials doesn't mean they do not exist. Calling me a lair is uncalled for. These materials have been around for decades. Mein Kampf Hilter blue print for Nazi Germany can be located most public libraries. 24.101.172.61 (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm only looking at names. Obviously the thing the Nazis called National Socialism is not what this article is about, but to avoid confusion, and to avoid suggestions that we're censoring anything, we should mention National Socialism in this article, and point readers in the right direction to find information about it. HiLo48 (talk) 10:33, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you cand find something in a reliable source that makes that point maybe. Otherwise I think it's a note in the header for future IPs who are trolling around the US election. ----Snowded TALK 11:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's all that's needed, but it should be mentioned. Otherwise it really does look like censorship. And I don't see what this has to do with the US election. That reads like US-centrism at its worst. HiLo48 (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This IP has a history of trolling and I removed the comments, since they are not a discussion about improving the article. I suggest we close this discussion. TFD (talk) 14:32, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
disagree, see [1]. Deleting discussion is often counter-productive and feeds into the cabal myth. perhaps you could address the most worthwhile of the several points instead? Darkstar1st (talk) 17:08, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We are not required to help out trolls Darkstar. No point is made of any worth that has not already been done to death in prior discussions. ----Snowded TALK 17:43, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The IP has presented reasons why he believes something. However as you are well aware, we do not add editors' opinions to articles, we add those of experts. If you and the IP want to argue about politics, then go to a political website where people do that. TFD (talk) 17:44, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
snowed, thanks for your opinion, however plz afg. name calling is not helpful, in the future i would ask you to be more respectful, thx! , TDF, plz read the link i gave you about helping, your insight may benefit this editor most of all. Darkstar1st (talk) 19:09, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Far too much time is wasted on editors who are just here to impose some political opinion and who can't be bothered to read up on wikipedia process. I am all in favour of helping out the innocent, but that is not the case here. As I pointed out to you before the Hilary Clinton reference is a dead give away. ----Snowded TALK 20:56, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The editor's motivation is irrelevant. If that bothers you, you'd better get on over to the Romney and Obama articles and delete every second post. Let's just add a pointer to National Socialism at the top of the article, and the problem will go away. HiLo48 (talk) 21:47, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ill edit later and take out my personal views and stick to the factual quotes which support why National Socialism belongs on this page. And including National Socialism will improve this page. Not sure what TROLLING IS, seems to me anytime someone disagrees they throw these words out to justify their actions of censorship. 24.101.172.61 (talk) 18:09, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My use of Hilary Clintons comments which is socialist in nature was to show common elements to Hilters quote. If you take the quotes and ingore my asides I believe they are a justafication that National Socialism belongs on this page. I agree a Pointer to National Socialism at the top of article would be enough to improve this page. I don't understand why using actual quotes and actions from the people involved does not trump popular opinion and media articles written decades later. 24.101.172.61 (talk) 00:22, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, i realise Clinton's comment out of context appears socialist, as do some of Hitler's. But historically the two are completely unrelated and have nothing to do with each other, and it doesn't prove anything, And Clinton is not recognised as a socialist, so if anything it detracts from your point.
Also, I would like to state that I am opposed to referencing National Socialism on the Socialism article, unless at least one scholarly source stating that National Socialism is indeed socialism (or at least a variant) is provided, and not just a random string of quotes chosen arbitrarily from Hitler's verbal diarrhea. It would be absurd to list every aspect from history loosely associated with socialism here. If you add National Socialism, might as well add public education system, Roosevelt, Clinton, Obama, Harper, maybe even Bush, mixed economy, etc etc etc. Also, I would like to note that I don't think a subject should be included on a page just because there is a common misconception. If someone wants to know about national socialism, they can search national socialism. It would only contribute further to misunderstandings.AnieHall (talk) 05:02, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
a great point, except, national socialism redirects here, something i have fixed only to have reverted. Darkstar1st (talk) 05:05, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I never said Clinton is a socialist, I referred to her comment as socialist in nature, which I think we all could agree on. My point was not to TROLL as you say but to include a form of socialism here. Many other from of socialism are included here. I included quotes of the time and policies from Nazi Germany that tend towards Socialism. Just because something was written before the internet does not make it invalid. Also I think a socialism in America section would be great. And as AnieHall suggested Public Ed, Roosevelt, and Obama should be included in the US socialist section. Maybe even Bush and Clinton but seems a stretch absent research. Unions and Labor Dept. could also be thrown in. Seeing how the Socialism page mention a half a dozen other forms of Socialism I think a couple of more wouldn't be to much.24.101.172.61 (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2012 (UTC) a.k.a. THE TROLL[reply]

You "referred to her comment as a socialist". What? HiLo48 (talk) 02:00, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I beg your pardon Hilo. I changed it to fit the fine standards of wikis talk page. Not sure your comment was made in good faith but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. 24.101.172.61 (talk) 02:19, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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