Talk:Homeschooling

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• Archive 1 — 19 April 2005
• Archive 2 — 20 January 2006

U.S. bias

What would everyone think of this: Instead of having the disproportionately long section on 'legality of homescholing in the US' and a small section on 'homescholing internationally', how about having one section called 'Home education around the world' or something, with brief descriptions of homeschooling {prevelance, legality) in various countries; then moving the huge US-legal section to it's own page (it's probably big enough; this could help trim this article a bit, and make it less US-biased and more well-rounded). Let me know what you think. — orioneight (talk) 21:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you're on the right track. I had mentioned recently that the legality section was beginning to overwhelm the article. I hadn't even thought at the time about it adding to the already overwhelming US bias. "Homeschooling internationally", maybe?. Although I haven't gotten around to adding it yet, I've been tracking down leads for homeschooling in other countries. Although there is some info to be found for about two dozen countries, the only ones with anywhere near enough to have articles of their own (so far) are the UK and possibly Australia. So what about Homeschooling in the US, Homeschooling in the UK, and HS in Australia? Leave everybody else on the main article until it becomes necessary to get there own? That way, all countries will get a brief mention, and you can click through on a specific country if you want more info. Thoughts? Master Scott Hall 21:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I am learning through my research that the term "homeschooling" is uniquely American. The British use "home-education" almost exclusively. Australia uses "home education" (no hyphen), and sometimes "home schooling" (space, no hyphen). "Home education" (with or without the hyphen) definately seems to be used much more internationally than "homeschooling". We may need to think about re-arranging article names a little.

Less of a problem may be: it seems that, at least in the US, the term "homeschooling", when used by non-homeschoolers is used, somewhat expectedly, as a perjorative, and with the assumption that all homeschoolers are fundamentalist Christians with brainwashing agendas. And, that many non-Christian homeschoolers prefer using a variety of different terms (unschooling, deschooling, etc.) with the hopes of not being tagged as a "fundy". Any thoughts? Thanks, Master Scott Hall 00:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

mwuhahahaha!! I will brain wash you and make you my slave foreveeer!!! - Jedi of redwall 23:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

My experience is that people use the term "unschooling" in order to suggest or state that the home educational experience they are providing their children avoids a canned or planned curriculum and generally amounts to little more than "living." Alan Nicoll 03:29, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I have put together a draft of a new version of this article based on the above discussion. Please read it and give me your input. Thanks, Master Scott Hall 17:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you went too far. Most of the "motivations" and "social effects" and "academic results" are most likely identical in other industrialized countries, even though all the evidence cited is American. I'd support, however, moving the legal stuff to Legality of homeschooling in the United States or something similar since that's not going to be internationally applicable. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You are probably right about motivations, social effects, results, etc. being similar worldwide. I just hesitated in putting them in the international article because it is highly assumptive, not to mention, the applicable statistics we have pertain exclusively to U.S. I would also agree that "legality" could use its own article, especially due to the abundance of specific state laws that have yet to be touched. I was just focusing on getting the U.S. POV problem cleared up first. I still think that the main HS should be worldwide, with satellite articles focused on individual countries. After finding an abundance of international HS resources, especially in other English speaking nations, we would be putting ourselves in the awkward position of defending why the main HS article has a strong US bias. I think "Homeschooling" (international article), "Homeschooling in the U.S.", "Legality of HS in the U.S.", and then "Homeschooling in xxx" (as needed) makes a lot more sense to me. We could incorporate the other sections mentioned above into the int'l article as we verify them. Anyone else have an opinion on this one? Thanks, Master Scott Hall 22:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The concept of homeschooling, as described in the article, seems to be basically a US one, with some extensions in other English speaking nations (cultural proximity? Religious concerns?), and rather inexistent elsewhere. For instance, homeschooling is legal in France but marginal and not worth mentioning (a few hundred families), and most people there never heard of it. For that reason, I tend to think that an article about homeschooling has a US bias simply because it's massively a US phenomenon (for reasons that it would be interesting to explore). Gilles Tran 13:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Gilles Tran, this is something that has been discussed by several contributors to the WikiProject Alternative education. One possibility is to turn this into a national-neutral article and to spin-off more focused nation-specific articles as they are needed. This has been done, sort of, with the Legality of homeschooling in the United States. Additional input on this is always welcome. Thanks, Master Scott | Talk 13:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Image

Surely we can have a better image that Jefferson, with a disclaimer could be considered to have been homeschooled.? I'm not sure I have any personal images to release, but I couldn't have been the only Wikipedian raised in a household whose kitchen included desks and textbooks against the wall. :) Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 22:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree. The word homeschooling has no meaning in relation to the eighteenth century, when there were no standardized schools. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding any free-license images on the internet, but I agree that the pic of Jefferson must go; it was added in drive-by fashion a while ago. Maybe we could put a request at requested images. — orioneight (talk) 17:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

How about Edison or Einstein? They both had a major international impact & were homeschooled after compulsory education began. I will look for images of their youth uless someone object or had a better suggestion. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 18:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather have a picture of homeschooling (i.e., child at a table with books and a parent teaching in a home setting) as that is what the article is about. Locating free-license images is not proving easy though. — orioneight (talk) 19:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, but I also have searched rather exhaustively for copyright-free images depicting just that--to no avail. Would you support the two I mentioned until a better alternative can be found? Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 19:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Homeschooled individuals

I would like to suggest, in an effort to add int'l balance, that we trim down the list of homeschooled individuals and add some more int'l examples. Also as mentioned above, "homeschooling" as an alternative form of education has only existed since the mid 1800's (1854, Massachusetts), so the list should only include people who would have been educated after that time. Master Scott Hall 05:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Hall that a person would not be considered homeschooled for the sake of this article if they were schooled before compulsary education because in that time that was the way of education. This article is about the choice to be schooled at home (no mater how we spell or title it) as opposed to in a classroom setting. My opinion excludes Jefferson, whose picture is at the top. Lrldcs 15:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I have removed Albert Einstein from the homeschooled individuals list, since nothing on his own article suggests he was homeschooled, and even lists schools he attended. He didn't complete his high school diploma, but that's a technicality. —Wahoofive (talk) 01:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You are correct. When I put the Edison photo up, I found that Einstein did indeed attend school from age 5-15. Some of the others mentioned in this article need to be re-examined also, per previous conversations on this page. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 02:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I have removed most of the claimed homeschooled people from the history section. They did not fit the definition of homeschooled as put forth in this article (read previous discussions above). I left Wilson, but can not, as of yet, back it up with a source. If someone wants to replace him with a person or two from the list at the bottom of the article, fine, as they have all been researched and are representative of a more worldwide view. And/or, after research, add Wilson to the list. Two or three are all we need in the history section—that's the purpose of the other list. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 22:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Homeschooling in popular culture

This article makes relatively no mention of home education in mainstream culture. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few episodes of various TV shows which portrayed some kind of homeschooling. I also remember a CBS show a long time ago about a traveling missionary family who homeschooled (Promised Land). Does anyone know any more? — orioneight (talk) 17:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

IMDB search for "homeschooling" yields several films [1]. Also, if memeory serves: Mosquito Coast, Harrison Ford movie, early eighties. I don't know the protocol of entering films with citations—if you do, feel free. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 15:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Motivations

Is there an indication that anti-vaccinationists in states with legislation requiring immunisation before school entry are over-represented in the population schooled at home?Midgley 16:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It is listed next-to-last in the Homeschooling motivations section of the article. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 16:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Homeschooling as a term

The second paragraph of the article says in the term homeschooling emerged in the late 1970's. An ancestor of mine, Isaac Newton Carleton ran what he called a home school from 1884 to 1901. It's name was Carleton School for Boys. I have a copy of a circular he had printed in 1894 that calls it that. I was wondering if it was better to say that the term was re-invented or be more specific about the context. Carleton didn't make any claim that he invented the term.

• Carleton, I.N. The Carleton School for Young Men and Boys, Bradford MA: James Ward Jr., 1894.

(Original held by Rauner Special Collections Library at Dartmouth College)

Rbcwa 17:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Rbcwa, It doesn't surprise me that someone was using those two words together that far back. In fact, I would bet that Mr. Carleton was not the first—or the last to do so. What the article says, and this has been well-documented over the years by many other notables in the field, is that John Holt was the first to use, in a widely-recognized published work, the word homeschooling. Though not by much, there is a difference. Using the words home and school together in a phrase to describe home-based education is no real stretch—it's only common sense and I'm sure it was done thousands of times before 1978. But Holt, who was already making great strides in reintroducing this form of alternative education, put the phrase together to make a new word. This new word went on to be the most commonly used term of the last 25 years to describe this field. BTW, the circular you mentioned would be a great piece of material to add to the Homeschooling article. I would have to check, but I believe its being published before 1923 makes it fair use, and thereby usable on Wikipedia. Let me know what you think. Thanks, Master Scott | Talk 00:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll scan or transcribe it and announce to this discussion when I have it available. I have a xerox of the original held at Dartmouth. I don't think my family still has a example of the original printing. Rbcwa 05:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is the link for the circular:

• Carleton School for Boys Circular

Please link to it rather than copying it.

Rbcwa 08:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to point you to WikiSource with that - so that we can have the whole text up :) Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 15:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

That is a terrific idea. I need to add three more pages to it, then I'll move it over to WikiSource. Rbcwa 23:44, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Stats

According to a U.S. Census survey, the parents of 33% of homeschoolers cited religion as a factor in their choice, 30% felt the regular school had a poor learning environment which completely contradicts the graph right beside it, which indicates significantly *more* parents are homeschooling because they believe the education system is insufficient, not for religious reasons. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 16:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The statistics are taken from two separate sources. The graph refers to an National Center for Education Statistics survey conducted in 1999, while the article itself cites a 2003 U.S. Census Bureau study. My guess is that a four-year time lapse paired with different methods of survey account for the difference. I double-checked and confirmed the accuracy of both sources. Thanks, Master Scott | Talk 22:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I've tweaked the article so this distinction is made clearer. —Wahoofive (talk) 23:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Homeschooling vs. Home schooling

I reverted a recent edit in which all instances of "homeschool" and its derivatives were replaced with "home school". The revert was due to the anonymous editor leaving no explanation. However, I do believe (and have for some time) that a change of similar nature should be addressed. As far as I can tell, "homeschool" as one word is uniquely American. I have not brought this up before, fearing an outcry in its defense. I am not married to a change right now, but believe that a change is inevitably necessary to produce an accurate article without an undue U.S. bias. If a specific article is warranted for the U.S., I would support using this article title for that. Alternatively, and perhaps more appropriately, a new article entitled Home education, or, perhaps even more neutral and in keeping with the terminology standards that are currently being developed, Homed-based education with most of this content moved over to it. Then this page can be either further developed as a U.S. only article, or as a redirect to, perhaps more appropriately titled, Home-based education (United States). Again, I don't think that this is an emergency, but an eventual necessity. Thanks, Master Scott | Talk 21:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

This is just like the elevator/lift situation. We have to pick some title for the article. Trying too hard to be neutral just makes us sound bureaucratic (Vertical people transporter). From the Manual of style section on national varieties of English:

Each article should have uniform spelling and not a haphazard mix of different spellings, which can be jarring to the reader. For example, do not use center in one place and centre in another in the same article (except in quotations or for comparison purposes).

...

If the spelling appears in an article name, you should make a redirect page to accommodate the other variant, as with Artefact and Artifact, or if possible and reasonable, a neutral word might be chosen as with Glasses.

Now you might consider Home education to be a neutral word, but I wouldn't use a fake word like Home-based education. The style manual specifically allows us to use a nation-specific word like Homeschooling. —Wahoofive (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. The last thing I want is to be bureaucratic. I am just trying to present this dialog in the event that the subject comes up down the road. Seeing the article renamed Home education instead of the colloquial "Homeschooling" would be great, but anything beyond that should probably be addressed when, or if, it becomes an issue. I've already gone through and "neutralized" much of the article, attempting to steer away from making any changes in the country-specific portions. Thanks, Master Scott | Talk 17:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Settled issue?

It seems like one issue missing on this discussion page is that of homeschooling's successfulness, which still for me is unsettled. How can you rely on just one study, especially if the link takes you to the Homeschooling Legal Defense Fund site? And I wonder if homeschool students take standardized tests like Virginia's SOL; an update here is appreciable. I also have sensed a conspiracy in the participation of homeschool students in spelling bees because it seems like parents are just trying to impress colleges knowing that success in these events don't reflect overall competence. Again, I would appreciate it if Wikipedia makes improvements in this topic. However, I am not confident because it is so darn slow to respond. -Amit

The server is very slow today, that's for sure. Anyway, the world at large, let alone the editors of Wikipedia, have reached no consensus on the efficacy of homeschooling. There's not even a reliable census (at least in the U.S.) of how many homeschoolers there are. And comparing their test scores is kind of useless when so many homeschoolers have educational goals quite different from those of most schools. You're right about the spelling bees; but I see no mention of that in the article. —Wahoofive (talk) 00:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Are there statistics available detailing how home schooled students perform in colleges or universities? It seems like universities would keep these kinds of statistics (since they keep pretty much every other kind of statistic relating to graduation). I have a niece who recently graduated from University of Michigan, and she made the off-hand comment that of the top ten students in her class, 4 were private schooled, 1 public schooled, and 5 home schooled (she was private schooled). I do not know if her comment is accurate, but I bet this kind of thing could be checked, as it should be public record. Performance in the college environment would be a somewhat fair and neutral yardstick for the evaluation of the effectiveness of homeschooling compared to other forms of schooling. Rhomphaia 03:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Many colleges and universities don't really need any statistics. In fact, most colleges will ask, "Are you homeschooled?" as they look at some papers. "Yes," the student says. "You're in!" they will automatically say.

A student who is homeschooled is slowly being allowed to attend almost everywhere. Homeschoolers are most known for their hard, willingness to work and their available information from deep, self-rooted research. Homeschoolers who want to know information and have parents who cannot help them, or can't answer their questions, refer to a great deal of references and own research. My cousin did homeschooling, and started college at 14, and made A's ever since. REFERENCE FROM: http://www.oudaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/12/01/438fd452f4238 Colonel Marksman 19:39, 3 April 2006 (UTC) PS: Dunno if all that is in the homeschooling article... doubt it.

Many colleges and universities don't really need any statistics. In fact, most colleges will ask, "Are you homeschooled?" as they look at some papers. "Yes," the student says. "You're in!" they will automatically say.

You can't be serious. Perhaps you're thinking of Liberty University? — orioneight (talk) 21:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Mike Fortune-Wood's website

I would like to bring to everyone's attention Mike Fortune-Wood's website (www.home-education.org.uk). I have been informed by several people within the UK home-education community that his website is full of plagarised and unconfirmed information. It would be best to find better sources for the parts of the article that cite his website. --Spe88 16:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Being Home Educated in the UK, I would be happy enough to try and find original information from the Official Pages for various Home Education sites? I believe the above mentioned website to be helpful to families, but as you say, not quite reliable enough for wikipedia. Is there anything specific I can look up for the project? Just give me the word (PrettyxVacant 20:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC))

Education Otherwise

In the UK there is an organisation called Education Otherwise that specialises in Home Education. There does not seem to be an article for this, or at least not that I can find. What shall we do about this? (PrettyxVacant 16:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

I have had a most extraordinary idea! we shall make an article! unfortunatly I am on the wrong continent and know nothing about it. Jedi of redwall 23:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Inexpensive???

As an individual with very close personal links to the homeschool community, I find the remark that "homeschooling can also be very inexpensive" grossly inaccurate. Of course there are varying levels of monetary expense. However, homeschooling is rarely practiced without great sacrifice, even at its most inexpensive. Monetary sacrifice is rarely negligible, but may be far less signigicant than other sacrifices. --Jack 00:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the wording is a little extreme. At least, it's not as expensive as many people think. A government school spends several thousand dollars per student -- I seem to remember it being >$10,000/year in some locales, but I'm not sure. A child could be homeschooled for around $1,000/year (often less). So, compared to a government or private school, homeschooling is considerably less expensive. --TangentIdea 01:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Costs of clothing and supplies required for regular school likely more expensive vs. simpler and more casual home attire and make-do at home; costs for books and curriculum can be minimized based on choice or completely eliminated if local libraries are adequate; transportation costs may be reduced; health costs may be reduced if child is not exposed to germs rampant in children in school; parental participation in fundraisers will be minimized. On the other side, a stay-at-home parent is required, reducing possibilities of second income in traditional family; utilities costs will be higher due to use by child at home. Much depends on the approach of the homeschooling parents; recreating the public school in the home would be pretty expensive, but unschooling at home can be virtually free. Alan Nicoll 18:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Some good points there, Alan. Thanks. In my first comment, I hadn't considered unschooling. Most of the homeschooling I've been exposed to has taken a more curricular approach. However, most homeschooling requires a major time commitment on the part of at least one parent. Furthermore, it is inevitably more expensive to care for a child at home, than to allow someone else to provide for him elsewhere. Conversely, homeschooling offers an opportunity for children to learn to contribute to the family as productive members; I am very much in favor of this approach. I have considered economic methods in the past, and found cost-effective homeschooling quite plausible. Nevertheless, "very inexpensive" may be inappropriate when the cost of economical homeschooling is compared to the cost of "free" public education. --Jack 07:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• Some of the more simple, self-taught (unschooled) materials can be more inexpensive as well. The ACE curriculum, for example, can be as low as $800 a year. Are these costs in the article? Colonel Marksman 19:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Adding Charlotte Mason Page

I've started the Charlotte Mason Page. Any help from members of the home schooling community would be appreciated. Thanks Lfinder 19:43, 2 April 2006 (UTC)lfinder

Tutoring

The article's first paragraph seems to preclude tutoring as a method (in whole or in part) of homeschooling. Specifically, it states "by their parents." However, the first paragraph in the History section includes mentoring and tutoring as part of home-education for some rather wealthy families (add Teddy Roosevelt to the list). Can we make it clear in the first section what homeschooling comprises? Must homeschooling be conducted specifically by parents, or is it simply "teaching under the governance of the parents." What if my neighbor helps with math? What if we take frequent trips to libraries, museums, factories, and battle fields? Certainly that's not at "home." I think the salient point to homeschooling is that the student's studies are governed directly and entirely by his or her parents and without compromise. Any suggestions for clarifying the main section? Rklawton 20:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Quotes section

Just perusing this article, and the Quotes section really caught my eye in a bad way. It seems very POV, more like something you'd see in a brochure supporting homeschooling than an encyclopedia article. It's very strange that this article admits that a majority of Americans still don't support homeschooling as a concept, and then there's this section that's basically "here are a bunch of vague quotes from great thinkers that appear to support homeschooling." The relevance of, say, Socrates' "To find yourself, think for yourself" is really suspect. I'd like to see this section completely eliminated. --Masterofzen 12:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the Einstein quote sort of addresses the system of public education - at least as it was fifty years ago. But the rest has nothing to do with homeschooling. Rklawton 15:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

"Interaction with different social groups" - Argument

Interaction with different social groups is essential to learning to live in society; a common criticism is that home-schoolers' "interaction" is solely with other home-schooled children from like-minded families.

Is it just me, or is this argument a little off. By definition, whoever you spend your time with is whoe you spend your time with. For instance, I went to Public School my whole life and solely interacted with other Public School kids.

Granted, I ended up meeting kids outside my school throughout my childhood, but so would anyone that is not actively isolated.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Socialization argument is a fine one to pursue relative to Homeschooling, but this one seems off. : Ian Lewis 17:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)