Talk:Ned Kelly

Another song for the list

The 1983 album Fridge in the fast lane by the band Cluster of Nuts has a song called "Ned Kelly's Letter", which is essentially a Celtic-rock version of Ned Kelly's Cameron letter. (http://nedonline.imagineering.net.au/documents/04966-P0000-000001-0030-010-001.htm)

This is about Ned Kelly —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.158.140 (talk) 15:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

One more song might be about him "Don't Fence Me In" by Cole Porter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.177.138.109 (talk) 23:08, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The Jerilderie Letters

http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/collections/treasures/jerilderieletter/jerilderie00.html

````

Kev 20-10-2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.54.167.166 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

smjm 8Sept2011: Outdated url above. Letters can now be found at http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/our-collections/treasures-curios/jerilderie-letter (but a link to the wikipedia page on the letters would probably be more appropriate to this page). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.173.6.25 (talk) 12:39, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

32,434 Sign to Save Ned

RachelandBronwen has requested: please replace last line of Capture Trial and Execution by the following quotation from the Argus Newspaper of the day

32,434 Sign to Save Ned

[as reported in The Argus newspaper 9/11/1880] “[William] Gaunson [solicitor and politician, and member, Reprieve Committee] and the Kelly sisters were admitted to a retiring room, and the former handed Captain Le Patourel [secretary to the governor] the petitions he had been getting signed for presentation to the Governor, stating that they contained 32,434 signatures. “An examination of the petitions showed that they were signed principally in pencil, and by illiterate people, whilst whole pages were evidently written by one person. “The Executive of course determined to adhere to their decision—that the convict shall be executed on Thursday morning. This having been communicated to the prisoner's relatives they left, and returned to the Robert Burns Hotel. They were accompanied, as before, by a crowd and during the whole afternoon and evening the hotel was rushed. Immediately after their return James Kelly addressed the crowd, from the door, and told them that 'it was not all over yet'—a remark that was loudly cheered.”

I'll leave RachelandBronwen's suggestion open to a discussion here. Josh Parris 05:42, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

terrorist

Would it be entirely innacurate to call Ned Kelly a terrorist? YES IT WOULD BE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.32.207.100 (talk) 20:53, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

A significant factor would be that Wikipedia frowns upon the use of the word terrorist simply because of its loaded nature. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. HiLo48 (talk) 07:42, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Ned's age?

The lead gives a possible range of a year for Ned's date of birth, but the section "Early life" tells us "Red Kelly died at Avenel on 27 December 1866 when Ned was eleven and a half years old."

That precision is out of line with the uncertainty surrounding his date of birth. HiLo48 (talk) 09:08, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

New External Link added

I moderate the Culture Victoria website and have added an external link to our story "Ned Kelly" which also includes a video interview with Peter Carey about his novel "True History of the Kelly Gang".Eleworth (talk) 03:47, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Ned Kelly as Robin Hood?

Australian opposition leader Tony Abbott has called some recent government tax breaks "Ned Kelly taxes". Likewise, a google search for "ned kelly robin hood" brings up a few claims that mostly seems to be unsubstantiated, that the Kellys robbed from the rich (mostly banks, so I guess that part is true), and gave to the poor. Is there any evidence for this? Would make a good subsection somewhere, perhaps, if there is. --naught101 (talk) 08:31, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

It would all depend who you asked. Some see Ned as nothing more than an evil, police killing criminal, others see him as a persecuted member of the Irish Catholic and rural community. He certainly had a lot of friends right to the end, and the usual sharing among friends would have occurred with whatever spoils Kelly gained. He certainly didn't use them to live the high life. HiLo48 (talk) 09:13, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Another Literary Referance

The satirical fantasy novel 'The Last Continent' by Terry Pratchett contains several references to a legendary outlaw called 'Tinhead Ned' who would appear to be based on Ned Kelly.

---

Smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.96.18.246 (talk) 15:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Game as Ned Kelly?

I don't think a footnote from 1976 demonstrates this to be a common expression. I doubt I hear it once a decade.

Edit request from JMCBok, 23 July 2011

The opening scene in the movie The Devil's Rejects has the family garbed in Kelly-gang type armor. I was hoping somebody could add that bit to the portion with the rest of the film influence paragraph.

JMCBok (talk) 21:02, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jnorton7558 (talk) 23:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Why is British Empire shown as part of his places of birth and death?

And in an illogical order too? HiLo48 (talk) 11:42, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Identification of Ned's remains

As I'm not yet entitled to edit the page, I thought it might be helpful to let everyone know that, as reported on the BBC News website, Ned's remains (or at least the majority of them) have now been identified: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14742311

Cheers

Bryn YorkshireBryn (talk) 08:17, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks for highlighting this. Naturally it's all over the news here in Victoria, Australia. If nobody else tackles it I'll have a go at adding something in a few hours time. HiLo48 (talk) 08:27, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I can't edit, either, but the main page says Kelly's remains were identified in "August" 2011. The announcement was made yesterday, September 1. Small but important fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.5.59.1 (talk) 22:10, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Selector/Squatter explanation?

The doesn't repeatedly mentions "selectors", "squatters", the "selector-squatter conflicts", and (presumably related) "Victoria's Land Selection Acts". But it doesn't explain these terms, or give any link to an article explaining them. Could someone provide this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.49.100.203 (talk) 10:40, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Ad mentioned

Can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnYnNzs40K8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.231.128 (talk) 13:43, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Kellys

Does any Ned Kelly's relative live today ( or lived in this century )? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Istorrikas (talk • contribs) 09:37, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Surely "first degree murder" cannot be correct.

I suspect that it is inaccurate to say that Ned was charged with "first degree murder". I'm not aware of any divisions of murder into degrees in either Australia or Britain at any time.

The Law Report's transcript of a theatrical reconstruction of the trial, makes no use of "first" or "degree" as adjectives for murder. The Trial of Ned Kelly, and this would be in keeping with my (inexpert) understanding that the most serious crime involving killing someone in Australia is murder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobinGrant (talk • contribs) 13:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm changing to "Willful Murder" based on this page: http://www.bailup.com/Time%20Line.htm RobinGrant (talk) 02:36, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The introduction now states "capital murder" and links to a page describing Acts enabled in Great Britain in 1957 and 1966. While Great Britain is undoubtedly the jurisdiction in which Ned Kelly was charged, he couldn't have been charged with an offence written into law some 77 years after his death. RedDubh (talk) 06:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The Rise to notoriety of "Ah Fook"

The section of "Rise to notoriety" contains references to an individual "Ah Fook" and this is clearly some form of joke made by some contributor. The "reference" given leads to a webpage with a picture of a closely related "Ah Choo". please consider removing if no other evidence of Ah Fook's existence can be located. 58.111.67.150 (talk) 09:50, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a clever joke, it seems. It's gone, but hopefully not forgotten. Thanks for picking it up. HiLo48 (talk) 10:40, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I've replaced the Ah Fook incident with a very reliable reference and expanded it considerably as it is very relevant regarding police views of Ned. Wayne (talk) 20:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Hare's Suspension?

The article states; "For his cowardice the Royal Commission later suspended Hare from the Victorian Police Force." listing a secondary source for support. The primary source clearly contradicts this statement. "Royal Commission into the Kelly Outbreak" stated in its Second Progress Report:

"That Superintendent Hare's services in the police force have been praiseworthy and creditable, but nothing special has been shown in his actions that would warrant the Commission in recommending his retention in the force, more especially when the fact is so patent that the "strained relations" between himself and Mr. Nicolson have had such a damaging influence on the effectiveness of the service. This feeling is not likely to be mitigated after what has transpired in the evidence taken before the Commission; and we would therefore recommend that Superintendent Hare be allowed to retire from the force, as though he had attained the age of 55 years, and that, owing to the wound he sustained at Glenrowan, he receive an additional allowance of 100 pounds per annum, under clause 29 of the Police Statute (No. 476)."

This hardly sound like suspension for cowardice. Further statements by the Commission make it clear that personal disputes between Hare and another officer (Nicholson) were the cause of so much internal dissention that they both needed to be discharged. Fractious they may have been, but not cowards. Both were reinstated in their former positions by Cabinet action, pending their appointment to the higher position of stipendiary police magistrates (district judges), which was forthcoming for both.

http://www.kellygang.asn.au/documents/N82/82_03_03_Argus1.html

As to Hare's "slight injury" and fleeing from the battlefield, the Wanganui Herald reported:

"In connection with the Kelly gang extermination, we regret to learn that Superintendent Hare has suffered very much from the wound he received in his arm. Lately the symptoms are very unfavourable, the splints and shattered bones not all having come away, and fears were entertained that the hand would have to be amputated! A consultation was held by Drs Youl, Ryan and Fitzgerald, who determined to perform an operation. The arm was cut open, numerous pieces of bone and splints were removed, the shattered bones were chiselled smoothly, and any destroyed bones also removed. All the bones of the arm were found to be shattered by the rifle ball, which entered on the outside and passed slanting right through the bones and flesh. Hopes are now entertained that the hand will not have to be amputated."

His recovery was long, as erysipelas had set in. Since Hare's eventual retirement from the force was accompanied by a disability allowance of 100 pounds a year, it would seem to have been much, much more than merely a 'slight wound'.

It might prove more responsible to include a link to the Commission's actual report, than to rely on interpretations by secondary sources having obvious bias. 67.187.136.140 (talk) 00:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

List of Victims Killed or Wounded by the Kelly Gang

In the table detailing the victims of the Kelly Gang, Constable Lonigan is listed as Constable Lonergan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.129.191 (talk) 04:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Fixed typo.David.moreno72 (talk) 09:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Someone needs to tidy up the List of "Victims Killed or Wounded by the Kelly Gang" since a few of the names including the Jones were shot in the shoot-out at Glenrowan accidentally according to material i've read - probably not by the Kelly gang either since Mrs Jones was later charged with helping the Kelly gang (and got off). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.181.108.233 (talk) 11:08, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Irish Australian?

Kelly was neither Irish nor Australian. He was of Irish descent, and neither Australia or Ireland existed as countries at that time. The correct terminology would be to call him British or Victorian, or if neither of these is acceptable, not to use nationality at all. Suggested opening sentence: "Edward "Ned" Kelly (June 1854 or 1855 – 11 November 1880) was a bushranger who operated in the area of the present-day Australian state of Victoria." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.118.113 (talk) 05:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC) And in the box, his place of birth is listed as "Australia", which is blatantly incorrect, unless we're listing continents now.

You're technically correct about the status of the two countries at the time, but Kelly's Irishness is an essential part of his story and cannot be omitted. HiLo48 (talk) 08:35, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not omitting his Irishness, it's mentioned in the rest of the article, so could you make the edit to the opening sentence and place of birth and death? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.118.113 (talk) 09:12, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Copyedits

[From my talk page with responses inline]

In the Ned Kelly armour section, you have a syntax error for a conversion.

Fixed

....For instance, the in the Jerilderie letter, it you seem to have confused the two letters.

I can't see what this refers to. I think my edits were minor. Please clarify.

In the Aaron Sherrit section, you got rid of the famous bit of the policemen hiding under the bed, and you got rid of "You must be drunk, Anton. You know that it's over that way,'.

Restored.

In another section, you got rid of the very famous act when Curnow convinced Ned to let him go.

Restored.

You also got rid of 'the outlaw howled like a wild beast brought to bay, and swore at the police' Again, very famous.

Restored.

You also got rid of what happened to Martin Cherry,

Not really-he died-but I restored some detail.

Then you got rid of ' that they must have killed one another'. This is incredible crucial, and the subject of much controversy..

Restored.

You also got rid of 'After Ned Kelly's capture there was considerable debate over having the armour destroyed,' That is not copy editong, it now starting to become vandalism.

Restored, but really, why would a non-fan care without at least a rehearsal of the two sides' arguments? Also, "vandalism"? Get over yourself.

Then you made a change which reslted in 'Two stolen circular saws iron tacks were tried'. Circular saws and iron tacks are two different things.

Typo. Fixed.

Also plough shares and mould boards are two different things.

I think that remained clear, but I tweaked it. The armour section remains confusing because it ends with a newspaper report which contradicts what came before, using an unrelated stream of evidence.

You have certainly made a mess of the page of one of the most well known Australians. Could you please improve the page in response to the errors which I have highlighted. Once that is done, I will then highlight the other numerous errors which you have caused.

Go for it! Also, this article is way too long. Please consider splitting it so that a casual reader can get the basics without such a big time investment. Lfstevens (talk) 17:35, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Round 2

What I would like to clarify though is the Jerilderie Letter. I think there needs to be clarification that Ned is famous for two separate letters. The first one was posted to Mr Donald Cameron on 16 Dec 1878. The second, and more famous is the Jerilderie letter, given to Ms Gill on 9 Feb 1879. To make it easier, I suggest that 'Excerpts of the Jerilderie letter given to Ms Gill on 9 Feb 1879' instead of 'Excerpts of the second letter '.

I leave these changes, which my edits didn't affect, to a more knowledgeable editor.

Also, when the police arrived at Glenrowan, they travelled in two trains, a pilot train with a policeman strapped to the front, and the main train, which carried the bulk of passengers, so the term 'trains' needs to be used.

Trains. right.

Also could you put back that Byrne's body was secretly buried by police.

Restored.

Also, could you put pack the heading of Kelly's statement, as now the statement is missing who said it.

Typo

Also, you state that 'armour section remains confusing'. This is all part of the Kelly legend, where fact and fiction have become intertwined, so the many facets of the story needs to be revealed, even if they contradict.

Yes, but the contradication should be acknowledged, not merely included. Again I leave this to a more knowledgeable contributor.

This is partly why the article is so long. He killed 3 police, held up two towns and stole from their banks, and then went down in a final siege with homemade armour. When the Kelly gang was in the area, entire towns would shut down in a 'perfect panic'. FYI, I have been to the actual site of the Glenrowan Inn, which is now just a vacant lot.

The article isn't long because he's famous. It's that way because it includes too much detail for a main article. The detail, e.g., how the armour was constructed, should be factored into separate articles. Australians have every right to ensure that all the details are in the record, but a casual reader is not interested in how many trains there were or whether a minor participant did or didn't say something comical. The one part of the article that warrants more content is that about Kelly's legacy and the extent to which his actions reflect larger historical forces that echo down the years, rather than his individual characteristics. All the more reason to factor the details...

Lfstevens (talk) 02:04, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this article is far too long. Ben Finn (talk) 17:45, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 August 2012

The word 'mitochondrial' is incorrectly spelled mitochonrial.

This can be found underneath the 'Historical and forensic investigation of remains' heading.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mitochondrial

Danielyoung88 (talk) 07:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. Jenks24 (talk) 07:18, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Censored profanity

What's up with the censorship of vulgar words in this article? I'm all for civilized language, but I believe showing the actual words used by these historic figures provides a more complete image of them. Also, as someone who's interested in language in general I'm curious what swear words were used in those times. Censorship in quotations doesn't seem to be the norm on Wikipedia (I could be wrong about that). Is there a "official" policy regarding this? Couldn't find anything in the Help section. Zonder (talk) 10:44, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree that the censoring is inappropriate. Wikipedia is not censored. HiLo48 (talk) 11:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree than censoring is inappropriate, but in this instance, it is a different case. Most of the censored transcripts come from court procedures or interviews that were then printed in the newspapers of the time. It was illegal at the time to print swear words, but they were allowed to print a dash in place of the swear word. If anyone is able to retrieve the original documents, I'm sure that we would all be very interested. David.moreno72 (talk) 03:36, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Red or John?

I'm making the assumption that his father was called John and nicknamed Red, but the article seems to use the two names interchangably without explaination. I'm not going to change it as I don't know that my assumption is correct, but could someone who does know clarify? Talltim (talk) 13:18, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

   Fixed David.moreno72 (talk) 15:18, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Victims?

I notice that some facts are inconsistant "Hostage Martin Cherry was found dying..." "...He seems to have been shot by the attacking force"

However a couple of sections later "List of victims killed or wounded by the Kelly Gang" claims that Martin Cherry was shot dead194.74.237.82

(talk) 09:46, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Family details

The sentence "When Red Kelly died he was survived by his wife and seven offspring, Ned and Dan, James, Mrs Gunn, Mrs Skillion, Kate and Grace." is anachronistic and confusing for readers not already acquainted with the story. Neither Annie nor Maggie were married at the time Red died. Also, I'm pretty sure 'children' is a more neutral term than 'offspring'.

RedDubh (talk) 21:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)