Talk:Dracula

Bits and pieces

Shouldn't there be more historical context information in the analysis section, especially about victorian gender roles and the "new woman" concept? I also think it reads rather clumsily to include elements of vampiric lore in the analysis. There should be a separate section for that. Laurencooper 11:30, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

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Hello? "a secret fraternal order of knights called the Order of the Dragon, founded by King Sigismund of Hungary (who became the Holy Roman Emperor in 1410) to uphold Christianity and defend the Empire against the Ottoman Turks"?

Call me a running dog lackey of the evil rationalist zombies, but whenever I see something like this my Conspiracy theory alert goes off. Anybody have anything to back this up?

(I'm not calling anybody names here, I just want to know where this came from.)

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If I had time, I'd want to compare this article to [1] and other sources. --LMS

Thanks, Larry. Page says that the info there "was taken from The Vampire Book, The Encyclopedia of the Undead by J. Gordon Melton""

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"Dracula is the most famous (fictional, or mythical) vampire."

This would be as opposed to "real, non-mythical" vampire?

Well, we don't want five-year-olds reading this and finding out that, according to the encyclopedia, it seems that Dracula actually exists or existed! :-) I'm not sure how best to word this. --LMS

I gave it a shot. :-)

But Carmilla is definitely the most interesting... sjc

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There is no evidence that Stoker ever read anything about Vlad Drakul/Vlad the Impaler while doing research for his book. See "Dracula: Sense and Nonsense" by Elizabeth Miller. --corvus13

Oh dear, Elizabeth Miller really does have you wound up, doesn't she? Her viewpoint is kind of unique amongst scholars.... It is just a theory; there are many other arguments against her point of view. There are 3 threads to the source of Dracula: 1. Irish folk-myth (some of the Sidhe were thought to drink human blood; 2. Carmilla by Sheridan le Fanu and 3. (and problematically from Ms Miller's viewpoint) Vlad Tepes. 1 and 2 are not disputed by Ms Miller. Her argument definitely substantiates Carmilla as a source. But. Her arguments are based upon a number of assumptions, and while they are intellectually coherent, many of them are circumstantial. We will never know for sure. sjc

The strange wolf

"Lucy's mother is killed by a strange wolf and Lucy becomes pale and distrait. The Dutch vampire expert, Professor Van Helsing, is brought in and determines that Lucy's mother was killed by a werewolf and that Lucy is dying. "

Um, it's a while since I read the book, but isn't the wolf actually Drac in another form (as shown in the Buffy episode)? Hence not a werewolf.

There's a comment in the source of the page, reading

The wolf is a real wolf, which Dracula breaks out of London Zoo for backup; the narrative includes a press clipping about the wolf's mysterious escape and subsequent return. Is this worth mentioning in the plot summary?

I've left the comment there, and added "See Talk: page", as I interpreted the clipping as being the press 'explaining' the presence of a strange wolf, rather than as an actual explanation for it. — OwenBlacker 22:29, Jun 22, 2004 (UTC)

That was me - and I stand by that interpretation, which I made having just re-read the book. The press clipping isn't about "the presence of strange wolf", it's about the mysterious disappearance and subsequent reappearance of an actual wolf of known provenance which had been at the zoo for years. It doesn't even mention the incident at Lucy's house. --Paul A 09:02, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

One reason for mentioning the clipping is that it is an example of the multi-media nature of the novel, as discussed in the opening paragraph. Ortolan88 00:18, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Films

Zoe, KQ, film buffs alert! There is no link on this page to either the Browning film or the Hammer films, because, amazingly there are no articles in the Wikipedia on any Dracula film except Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein!

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Wasn't there a recent movie about the filming of the original Nosfertatu in which the actor playing the vampire actually was a vampire?Ortolan88

Yes, Shadow of the Vampire, with John Malkovich as Murnau and Willem Dafoe as the vampire. -- Zoe

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There are more than enough movies featuring Dracula to serve as the basis for a Wikipedia article entitled List of movies featuring Dracula, but would it be more efficient to do a List of vampire movies and include a special section for Dracula? --Modemac 17:27, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the second option: "List of vampire movies". --Paul A 01:38, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The reference to the IMDB search finding fourteen films with "Dracula" in the title was removed - an IMDB title search can't get more results than that anyway. All the sources I've checked give the number of Dracula-related films at 160 minimum, so I've included that number instead. -Sean Curtin 08:32, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Fred Saberhagen

Should this page mention the series of books by Fred Saberhagen told from Dracula's point of view? The Dracula Tape is a re-telling of the original book by Dracula himself, taking a predictably dim view of Van Helsing's MO. There are several more, including one with Sherlock Holmes as Dracula's nephew (explaining the remarkable physical resemblance between the two characters :-). --Phil 11:01, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

It does now. (Reminiscence: I once saw the first two books in the series published in an omnibus edition under the title Vlad Tapes. Ouch.) —Paul A 09:36, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

New image

I've just uploaded Image:DraculaLugosi1931Poster.jpg, but I've not added it to the article, as I don't know the copyright status. I would assume that a 1931 film poster is now PD, but amn't sure how best to check... OwenBlacker

At least in the U.S., something from 1931 would not be public domain, but a small image of a movie poster in a relavant context would almost certainly be fair use. -- Jmabel 17:53, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

In that case I'll add it…  :o) — OwenBlacker 11:49, Jun 26, 2004 (UTC)

Separate book from icon

Compare this page to superman. In this case I think separating out Dracula (about the character, its history, the current meme and its many offspring in literature and otherwise; with a brief summary of the various tales of Dracula's life) from Dracula (book) (with detail on Stoker's novel, a more fully spoilered plot synopsis, and analysis of the text). The many paragraphs of textual and character analysis are out of step with an article giving an overview of what modern audiences (who have yet to read the original novel) think of when they hear "Dracula". For that article, perhaps a movie poster picture of a black-and-white dracule about to sahck someone's blahd? +sj+ 04:26, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

More details on modern versions of the story

A mini-list from a quick google:

Dracula: Prince of Many Faces: His Life and Times by Radu R. Florescu and Raymond T. McNally is a chilling biography of Vlad Dracula. (UK)

In Search of Dracula: The History of Dracula and Vampires, also by Raymond T. McNally and Radu Florescu. This book explains the connections between the real Dracula and Bram Stoker's fictional vampire. (UK)

Vlad the Impaler: In Search of the Real Dracula by M. J. Trow. Was Dracula a heroic freedom fighter or a bloodthirsty mass-murderer? This biography peels back the layers of myth and history to reveal the the real Vlad the Impaler. (UK)

Vlad III Dracula: The Life and Times of the Historical Dracula by Kurt W. Treptow. A scholarly biography. (UK)

Dracula: Sense and Nonsense by Elizabeth Miller. The author, an expert on Bram Stoker's novel, believes Stoker did not base his Dracula character on Vlad the Impaler. (UK) Other Novels

Dracula, the Son of the Dragon by Neal John Iacono. A novel about Vlad the Impaler. (UK)

Covenant With the Vampire: The Diaries of the Family Dracul by Jeanne Kalogridis. The first in a trilogy of novels about a fictional descendant of the real Prince Dracula who uncovers the secrets of his family's past.

Children of the Vampire: The Diaries of the Family Dracul by Jeanne Kalogridis is the sequel to Covenant With the Vampire. Dracula's descendant continues his battle with his evil ancestor.

Lord of the Vampires is the final book in Jeanne Kalogridis's Diaries of the Family Dracul trilogy.

Vlad Dracula: The Dragon Prince by Michael Augustyn is a novel about the real Dracula. Out of print, but may be available.

Vlad by Melodie Romeo. Another fictionalized account of the real Vlad Dracula's life. (UK)

Love story?!?

I'd really like to know how the original novel Dracula became so much a "love story" that the claim was worth making in the first paragraph. While Bram Stoker's Dracula portrayed Dracula's pursuit of Mina as a love story, this is clearly revisionism and not what Stoker intended, and the relationships between the human characters really don't justify the classification of the book as a "love story". -- Antaeus Feldspar

I concur, Antaeus. —Stormie 00:05, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

I think it might be too complicated to put in the article, but I'm guessing that someone was trying to get at the idea of romanticism, of which the novel is certainly representative, and got confused between romanticism and the eroticism of the Count's relationhip with the women, and came up with "love story". Ortolan88 00:18, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Prehistoric Origins

In an early issue of OMNI magazine (now that takes me back more than a few years) there was an interesting speculation that the Dracula Myth might go back to prehistoric man. I don't have the original article, nor do I remember all of it (which is why this belongs here on the discussion page and not edited into the article). But the main point went something like this. When our ancestors were living in caves some might have strayed so far into them that they might have been bitten by bats, either when awake or asleep. This might have led to the onset of rabies, symptons of which can include an aversion to light and water. The madness that can follow might cause such problems in the tribe that killing the person might be the only way to protect the rest. Of course, this could all be terrible codswollop (or batswollop if you prefer). I wanted to post it as food for thought for Dracula fans and just in case it puts me in contact with someone who hung on to their copies of OMNI and can let me see the article again. MarnetteD | Talk 19:56, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

fictional character VS book title

sorry if that has come up already, but I looked for the book "Dracula" and the first definition was: "Dracula is a fictional character" - wouldn't it be better to put something like "Dracula is both a novel and its eponymous antagonist"? (clem 19:06, 14 May 2005 (UTC))

pop culture references

somebody should mention the simpsons episode that parodied bram stoker's dracula from season 5. where mr. burns is dracula.

Influences

It may be important to put moree influences on the story. Here is and *example. Stoker got his ideas from a lot of places, not just a few.

Broadway Muscial

Was Dracula: The Musical, which was on Broadway earlier this year, mentioned in the article? Link: http://frankwildhorn.com/projects/dracula/ --Kindeditor 16:08, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Separating Book from Character

Shouldn't there be a page dedicated to the character of Dracula himself, perhaps listing differences between his various incarnations?

Image Copyright Status

The image of the Dracula postage stamp appears to violate the conditions of fair use that are claimed on the image page:

It is believed that the use of postage stamps to illustrate the stamp in question (as opposed to the subject of the stamp) … qualifies as fair use

BrainyBroad 21:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Arminus Vambery

I am fairly sure Professor Van Helsin makes a reference to Arminus Vambery at some point in the novel. If so, then there is some evidence of Stoker and Vambery knowing of one another and possibly communicating. Does anybody else know? -- Pejhman 23:27, 07 January 2006 (AEDT)

Most accurate movie

According to Leonard Wolf a published expert on Dracula (who wrote "The Essential Dracula"), the most faithful reproduction was a BBC mini-series (I'd have to look up which) -- I think we should not be overly definitive about one movie or another being the most accurate. --Stbalbach 15:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Mr Wolf is referring to the 1977 production titled Count Dracula with Louis Jourdan in the title role. It also starred Frank Finlay as Van Helsing and Judi Bowker as Mina. Although not a miniseries it was two and a half hours long and covered virtually all of the book. It includes all of the main characters with the exception of blending Arthur Holmwood and Quincy Morris. It includes scenes filmed in the town of Whitby and we see characters recording events in their diaries, letters and dictaphones much like the way the book is written. In particular the character of Renfield is very close to the way that he is portrayed by Stoker. Some viewers decry its special effects but if you take into account the state of BBC TV F/X of the time they are actually fairly effective (for me anyway). I have read at IMDb that it is available on DVD from ebay, although some postings on their message board say that the quality is so so. Here in the US it was an annual Halloween broadcast on PBS for a few years in the 1980's. My VHS copy of it is starting to show it's age a bit. I agree with your statement about easing the rhetoric about which versions are the most faithful and I will try to help in keeping an eye on this page. User:MarnetteD | Talk 17:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Daylight Analysis

the Analysis section includes a mention that in Nosferatu was the first mention of daylight being fatal to the Vampire, and that in Dracula , the Count is able to move around by daylight. Would somebody point me to where this happens? Becaus I feel it's wrong.

My memory tells me of Harker meeting the Count only by night... and of the Vampire having to be carried in his earth boxes on the ship, presumably going out at night to feed, since the ship was mysteriously found devoid of life, and at the end, he's not moving under his own power but carried in a coffin by his gipsy servants. This goes well with the traditional view that, by day, the vampire must lie down in a torpor, and may not act (or he might have been able to defend himself at the very end... (he was looking exultand, gloating at the fact that the sun's disappearance would leave him free to act).

Now, the novel is thick and I may not remember or never have noticed key passages. Just where in that book is the count active by day? --Svartalf 21:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I just read it and the count is active by day throughout the entire novel. It is only by night that vampires transform into another creature or take ethereal form. Stoker had a lot of inconsistencies in the novel, saying one thing about vampires, and having them do another (for example Stoker early on says they are killed by a stake to the heart and/or cutting off the head, but Dracula himself is killed simply with a cut to the throat). The gypsy scene at the end is another inconsistency. --Stbalbach 23:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It's been a while since I last read the book, but Stbalbach is right. Dracula prefers night time but he may easily move about during the day, albeit with limited powers. Orlok, in Nosferatu, however is killed by the rising sun as he stays on the equivalent of Mina's bed too long. As I understood it (but again, it's been a while) Bram Stoker has beheading as the means of killing a vampire - the cutting the throat may be just a part of that. But somehow the stake (in Balkan legends only to nail the vampire into the coffin, so that he stays there) has somehow become more popular, appearing in many vampire movies and even in the Lord of the Rings movies. Str1977 09:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

minor change, first paragraph

Just made some changes:

changed the last sentence of the first paragraph to:

"much of the vampire's popularity in Western culture can be attributed to his novel, which spawned scores of theatrical and movie interpretations."

from :

"the novel's influence on the popularity of vampires cannot be overestimated, spawning scores of theatrical and movie interpretations."

the previous just sounded awkward, I didn't like the use of "overestimated", but some might not find it as awkward sounding as I did, so please change it back if it sounds better to you

Suggestions

Ok some Drac-buffs need to do work here:

(1) Separate the novel and films from the character. The character should include different portrayals of him and also comparison to Vlad III. Dracula (novel) Dracula (character)

(2) The best picture we have is of a postage stamp?

(3) A separate article on the castle, with renditions and possible candidates for the real Castle Dracula. Castle Dracula or Dracula's Castle

--Codenamecuckoo 09:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a note

The section explaining the references in Vampire Hunter D referred to the series as manga and movie series. I simply changed it to book series because the movies are not a series in any form.

"Marxist Analysis"

I am not the author of this section but I felt the articles NPOV suffered because of this section. I hope the author is not offended and I'm glad they are contributing to Wikipedia, but this seems much to 'fan-crufty' to be included. It also is of questionable validity--The Wizard of Oz and the Gold Standard anyone?

Marxist analysis of Bram Stoker's dracula

It may not have been Stoker’s intent, but in light of contemporary global political turns, it can be argued that Dracula is a satire of capitalism and the social castes that led to it. Stoker often creates and exaggerates the then modern divide between the classes, and illustrates the rising middle class in his mainline characters and their interaction with secondary personae.

Bram Stoker seemed to be very deliberate in placing his characters smack center in the social spectrum. Van Helsing, Jonathan Harker, Mina Murray, Lucy Westenra, John Seward and Quincey Morris are all members of the rising middle class by either trade, birth or marriage. [While Dracula and Goldaming are both members of the now defunct and then dying upper class or bourgeois.] As Senf notes “Considering the importance of class in the nineteenth century […], it would be a mistake to ignore class when reading anything written in the nineteenth century” (Senf, 99). This includes when one reads into the characters present in such a story. “Nineteenth century preoccupation with class should motivate readers of any nineteenth-century work to examine class issues, Stoker’s novel is so obvious in its treatment of class.” (Senf, 99). The barefaced nature in which Stoker separates class and defines the divide in Dracula only serves to further accentuate the satirical nature in which Dracula would be read by a Marxist or neo-Marxist observer.

Dracula can be viewed as stokers Marxist attack in capitalist upper class citizens in Europe. “Recent Marxist critics have alighted on Dracula as illustrating what they see as inherent contradictions in capitalism” (Leatherdale, 216) those illustrations in particular being the nature of Dracula as a vampire (whose nature it is to thrive by causing others two falter. The bourgeois, like the vampire, strives only to the end of impoverishing the lower class of money (blood) and to placate the proletariat’s desire to rise against them; “They, therefore, endeavor, and that consistently, to deaden the class struggle and to reconcile the class antagonisms.” (Marx, 24) In essence Dracula is the archetypal capitalist exploiter” (Leatherdale, 216) and is similar to the Marxist bourgeois in the way that he returns continually to exploit the blood of his victims; “No sooner is the exploitation of the laborer by the manufacturer, so far at an end, that he receives his wages in cash, than he is set upon by the other portions of the bourgeoisie, the landlord, the shopkeeper, the pawnbroker, etc.” (Marx, 7). Stoker only strengthens these points when he makes reference to “The Czarina Catherine” in choosing a name for his ship; coincidence that the ship which carries Dracula (symbolic of capitalism and the bourgeois) away from England is named for a member of the monarchy that spawned one of the first, and most notorious Marxist revolutions?

The nature of Stokers satire is reverberated and gains strength in the way he is consistent with his opinion of the working class peoples. As Senf suggests, “In general, Stoker is condescending towards his working-class characters, presenting them as drunkards and cowards, occasionally even as thieves” (Senf, 105) and as a result, he establishes a stage for Dracula’s air of superiority, and an exposition of his ignorance regarding the nature of his own social position. For instance “While still in Transylvania Dracula ‘works’ as a coachman, a cook, a chambermaid, and a valet” (Senf, 106). and “In England Dracula adds another menial occupation to his resume of skills—That of laborer. […] The laborer who helps him unload the boxes of earth at Dracula’s estate at Piccadilly” (Senf, 107). in both instances Dracula’s likens himself to the lower class, in contradiction of the nature of his aristocratic position as ‘count’.

Finally one must take time to examine the nature of endings in the book. The time must be taken to notice it is significant that the the only American present was made to die. Ironic, how the nation that has become synonymous with capitalism today was represented in the book by a character who was unable to live. It can be assumed that this is representative of communist/neo-communist apathy towards capitalism. This apathy repeats itself in Dracula’s death, a most anti-climactic climax if there ever was one. Dracula falls limply from the protection of his box, and is slain by the quick and swift motion of a working class blade.

If stoker did not intend his work to be a Marxist satire on the capitalist bourgeoisie, and was instead truly a bigot against the lower class, it is the duty of the intellectual proletariat to interpret his work in such a way, and return it to the sphere of intellect, to demonstrate the efficient nature of the working class effort.

Sources Senf, Carol A. “The comedy of class: Blood Drunkenness, and Hard Work.” Dracula: BetweenTradition and modernism. London: Prentice Hall International, 1998 99- 113.

Leatherdale, Clive. “Dracula as Social and Political Commentary.” Dracula: The Novel and the Legend. Willingborough, Nothhamptonshire: The Aqaurian Press, 1985. 206-222

Marx, Engels, Karl, Frederic. "The Communist Manifesto." Pro. January 25, 2005. Project Guttenburg. 21 April 2006 <http://isis.library.adelaide.edu.au/pg/6/61/61.txt>.

(someone please review this section for grammar/spelling as they are not my strongest point.)