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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lilkrystenb (talk | contribs) at 15:53, 24 April 2013 (→‎Oppose). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Edit warring

I have fully protected this article due to the edit war. Please use the talk page to discuss and work out differences in the article in accordance with WP:Consensus. If you cannot agree, please consider WP:DR. The article has been protected as it was when I found it. If the content is perceived to violate WP:BLP, it may be reverted during the discussion, but there will need to be some explanation of how it fails that policy. Please feel free to explain here, with {{Edit protected}}. (Please be specific about the issue you perceive. Critical commentary is permitted on Wikipedia, as long as it is properly sourced and otherwise meets the requirements of WP:BLP.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:20, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping the controversy Section in this article

LoveYourNeighbor1

I am having the Annual report of FCRA published by the Home Ministry Of India from 2003 to 2009. It clearly shows how much amount Gospel For Asia (USA) had send to India and how much money Gospel For Asia (India) and Believers Church had totally shown as received and spend for charity. I have solid proof of every real estate transactions done by Gospel For India and their office bearers. Believers church is having a Engineering college in Kerala and one medical college is under construction. Can you please let us know how many students of these colleges are from any of the charity mission supported by this organization. Childrens from mission are not meant to study only in Bible colleges. They can also become doctors and engineers. Where did the money came to build such big infrastructures? You mean the purpose of purchasing 2800 acres of land is charity. Then why doesn't that charity apply when some economically backward people tried to encroach the land under this organization. Why was force including the people of this organization and police applied to remove them from the estate? Why had international amateur radio union monitoring system ordered to remove transmission of Gospel For Asia from Issodun ? Why certain sections of the website of Gospel For Asia is redirected using a CDN script from accessing in India? Benedictdilton (talk) 21:43, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LoveYourNeighbor1 This page is not about Gospel For Asia this is about K P Yohannan. So your question about raising complaint about an organization don't apply here. I had provided supported reference of credible published media. If you can find any reference that corroborate aganist the points raised by me in the controversy section I am always happy to remove it. I had never heared in my life a pastor being consecrated as a Bishop and he then ordain himself as a Metropolitan. If these kind of matters are hidden from the eyes of the public time will not be far that he declares himself as the Pope. There are media reports by the home minister of Kerala stating that Gospel For Asia is a 7 member trust comprising K P Yohannan and his family members.Benedictdilton (talk) 10:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the following two points should be removed unless sourced better. -crores collected for charity and rehabilitation of Orphans used to purchase 2800 acres of land in Kerala. [12] - this source in no way makes this statement. It states that land was purchased, but it does not say that they used money collected for charity for this purpose. -On a case filed by the Government Of Kerala the High Court Of Kerala had ordered not to sell the land held by him or create any liability. [13] - not a reliable source for a BLP LoveYourNeighbor1 (talk) 13:08, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LoveYourNeighbor1

I would like to chance the first point as follows

" Foreign Funds Of Rs 1044 crores received in the last 15 years was diverted to purchase 2800 acres of land including 2200 acres of Cheruvally estate " Its almost equal to what mentioned on the article.

On the second point moderators and admin can take a decision on the credibility of the source and take any action they seems fit.

Benedictdilton (talk) 15:42, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding first point - it is already stated in the article. No need to repeat allegations.

In order to better follow BLP guidelines, I think that the introduction should change the term controversy to allegation, and we need to include that none of the allegations have been proven in a court of law as of today. Proposed text is "Yohannan's work has been the subject of various allegations which have not been proven or confirmed in any court of law." Then, any well sourced allegations can be added. This will ensure that Presumption in Favor of Privacy is followed.LoveYourNeighbor1 (talk) 16:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Let us take a look at what others had to say about this topic. I am against changing the section name. Controversy is the word that suits this kind of situations. If you have any reference against the points noted here kindly quote that. I am open to edit it. Admin and moderators can take any action that they seems fit for the situation. Benedictdilton (talk) 16:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As a reader, I would be interested in knowing what the results of any investigations were. 1. What happened to the petition filed by the Kerala Government in point 7? 2. What are the results of tracking that 1048 crore in point 8? 3. They were accused of land grab in point 9. Were they convicted? Did the government confiscate the land? 4. What was the result of the Home Department investigation in point 10? You seem to have a lot of information on these topics. Are these investigation still going on? Do we have their case numbers? Is there an update. It seems strange to have so many investigations started on allegations with no further details on anything, especially since some of these are over 8 years old.LoveYourNeighbor1 (talk) 18:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dear LoveYourNeighbor1 I don't think you as a reader. I clearly feel you are hell bend on making sure all articles related to K P Yohannan, Gospel For Asia and Believers Church looks clean. Are you aware of the procedure for a person to become a Bishop in an episcopal church. All norms were floated to make Mr K P Yohannan a Bishop. Why you want to hide that fact from the public? These people should have done a lot of good things start a new section and mention it over there. How can you justify throwing a muslim girl out of the school for wearing her traditional head scarf ? If I start to put all the information I collected today evening about these people then I feel one page wont be enough. I don't have any more time to waste after this on this matter As people like you are working over time to make sure that nobody should criticize these guys. I am having answer to all your questions except the second one. I can publish it here if any of the moderators or admin think that I should do so. If you want we can start from the case these guys filed to obtain the domain gfa.org . Why should I worry about the donation given by 1,01,600 United States federal employees under Combined Federal Campaign Why should I worry about money wasted on the name Charity??? Benedictdilton (talk) 22:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mantaining, cleaning or removing Controversy section

Well, there is clearly an ongoing discussion regarding the maintenance of Controversy section in this very same article, to uninvolved editors a edit war took place regarding this matter, one editor is in against keeping controversy section while the other on the opposite side, so to reach a better outcome I think a RfC should take place to help this resolution. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 00:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with #'''Support''' or #'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons. Also avoid threading the opposing or support statements, any comment goes in the subsequent section.

Support for retaining controversy section

  1. its absolutely true...kp yoahann is a corrupt man top to bottom....he accumulate and collect money from various people for helping indian poor children but he siphoned this to his personnel assets, recently kp yoahannan purchased 2800 acres of rubber estate ....those who paid the charity knows that he buying rubber estate.....? and kp yoahanna investing money fro various other real estate projects....and bishop yohanan is not a proper ordained bishop...he paid money to various other church leaders and forcefully those attended the ordained functions....this topic was very well discussed in kerala.....yohanann native village and tiruvalla knows him very well, he is a fraud bishop — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.22.217.174 (talk • contribs) 03:06, 24 April 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  2. Support for controversy section the cotravorcy part of kp yohannan absolutely its true....bishop yoahannan is not a proper ordained bishop as per Episcopal way,.because of his money muscle power he paid illicit money to various churches leaders,bishops and they attended the function finally it was criticize several independent church leaders, during the church managing committee , those who attended church bishops apologized unconditionally ...and they unanimously stated kp yohannan is not a ordained bishop and these people will never invite Mr yohanana for any other church functions as usually ...

    bishop yohanan collected money from various place for helping indian poor children and he siphoned money for buying for his personnel property....buying the rubber plantations, anyone pay charity ......? buying real estate property any people in the world will pay for charity.....?top to bottom he is a corrupt....his native place and tiruvalla people knows him very well how much dirt this person have — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.22.217.174 (talk) 03:06, 24 April 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  3. Support for controversy section
    All users interested in this article are requested to go through the above links and give a genuine opinion. Marktaylor12 (talk) 06:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  4. Support for controversy section Believers Church was a pentacostal church from the starting. It became a Episcopal church because of the money power of Mr Yohannan. No norms of the Episcopal church were followed to ordain him as a bishop. Believers church was in the news again because of their move to convert itself as a Jacobite Church. 74.50.123.9 (talk) 07:06, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support for controversy section Please refer to the Chicago Tribune link in the above post. Forcing gospel while taking advantage of the needy people is not acceptable. This is not what Jesus Christ preached and practiced. 101.63.201.51 (talk) 07:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  6. Support for controversy section kp yohanannan of belivers church one of the christian church mafia dose not following any ethics in their christian life, with money power they are doing all unethical practice specially self styled bishop kp yohanan..just over marthoma churches maramon convention he went their with out any invitations and capture the second raw of the seats, many people eyebrows this episode...a reliable sources confirmed he given huge some of money to marthomoma churches, his name to be one of the speaker for next maramon convention.....how a normal person become bishop ....? but the case of yohananan he paid money to CSI churhes head and he got ordained through illegal way....collecting money in the name of charity and spending for buying rubber estate ....of-course he has to answer to the god ..how he ditched and cheated millions of people around the world, askin for various social works in india...and diverting for his personnel growth........59.177.161.192— Preceding undated comment added 08:50, 24 April 2013‎ (UTC) This template must be substituted.
  7. Support for controversy section There are 9 schools under the banner of believers church. One Engineering College they bought and One Medical College is under construction. Assuming that the schools are for educating children under their mission is wrong. All are CBSE schools meant for upper class of the society and most of them are residential aimed at NRI Children. A dispute between the Parent Teachers Association and the school management regarding a huge hike in the school fee comparing to other schools in the locality took the matters to the high court of Kerala. The principal of the same school was made scape goat earlier for throwing out a muslim girl for wearing her traditional head scarf. Now they are building a medical college at a place where there is 2 more medical colleges. The motive behind the medical college is not to serve the poor but take advantage of the self managed education business. 115.242.225.138 (talk) 10:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  8. Support for controversy section As per wikipedia Controversy

"is a state of prolonged public dispute or debate, usually concerning a matter of conflicting opinion or point of view. The word was coined from the Latin controversia, as a composite of controversus – "turned in an opposite direction," from contra – "against" – and vertere – to turn, or versus (see verse), hence, "to turn against."

The most applicable or well known controversial subjects, topics or areas are politics, religion and sex.[1][2][3] Other areas of controversy include history and philosophy. Other minor yet prominent areas of controversy are economics, science, finances, culture, education, the military, society, celebrities, organisation, the media, age, gender, and race. Controversy in matters of theology has traditionally been particularly heated, giving rise to the phrase odium theologicum. Controversial issues are held as potentially divisive in a given society, because they can lead to tension and ill will, as a result they are often taboo to be discussed in the light of company in many cultures."

I feel we can't find a better name for this section. Same name is used in almost all topics were there is some thing like this problem exists including politicians and religious leaders. So I request the admin and moderators to continue the section and start a constructive discussion in what should be the content under the section. In India a crime to be proved in a court of law takes 15 - 20 years. In that case all content with creditable reference of print media should be included in the section that is my request. Benedictdilton (talk) 13:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Oppose - At least until the content can be improved by editors who have knowledge about everything, I believe the controversy section should be placed in the talk page LoveYourNeighbor1 (talk) 03:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose - This section is confusing and does not make sense 166.137.116.25 (talk) 05:32, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose - Since Biographies of Living Persons have a higher standard to meet this section should be moved or removed until it can be written in a way that properly conveys the information while avoiding confusion. As currently written it looks libelous which is highly undesirable in this forum Truthseeker877 (talk) 05:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  4. Oppose - I know nothing about the topic and after reading this section, I still know nothing about the topic. It should be removed. Truthandmyth (talk) 09:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  5. Oppose- There seems to be lot of information and links. However the section should be removed until the information can be written and consolidated properly117.201.57.33 (talk) 10:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC). This template must be substituted.[reply]
  6. Oppose - These are serious allegations and therefore, I strongly oppose it being published in this confusing formatTruthtobeknown (talk) 10:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  7. it should be removed no sense, the person who did donot know God , he is just a money seeker User:Lovehuman 24 April 2013. This template must be substituted.
  8. "Oppose" Since Biographies of Living Persons have a higher standard to meet, I believe this section should be removed for now4thelost (talk) 15:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Oppose -Since Biographies of Living Persons have a higher standard to meet, I believe this section should be removed for nowLilkrystenb (talk) 15:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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