Talk:Zilla (Godzilla)

Discussion Archived

13/10/2009 Archived the original Talk Page. Getting a little too long.--ACE Spark (talk) 14:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Final Wars and Name - Editing War

Apparently, there seems to be an editing war going on - someone keeps trying to change this page and all references to "American Godzilla", and any and all information regarding it's cameo in Final Wars keeps getting removed. So to the people that keep doing this, come on, this is a discussion page - DISCUSS it. What's with the constant editing war? This Godzilla re-appeared in Final Wars (go on, check it up on youtube, here's the video!, it deserves a mention, even if it's only a line or two. It happened. It's fact.

As for the name, Toho offically named it Zilla. So, there you go. That's it's name. Gino should be briefly mentioned in the article as the name fan's gave it before it's offical naming, but it's offical name should be used overall.

To those that keep editing the page, please discuss your reasoning here. Let's keep it civil. I've stated my opinion. Post yours.
--ACE Spark (talk) 14:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no doubt that the info should be there. However, it appears that the removal is the work of one user, since all the deletions are by IP addresses that can be traced back to AT&T Internet Services (specifically, a range of IP addresses that appear to be reserved for the Irvine, California area). --Jtalledo (talk) 23:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Not that I have anything to do with this, but well, I personally find it unfair. Toho didn't create the "American Godzilla", so why do they have the right to "officially rename it"? TriStar Pictures got their rights to use the concept, the name. What THEY call it should be what it IS called, even if Toho was the original creators. It's not their version. Sure, they can do whatever the hell they want with it in their own Godzilla universe and timeline, but that is NOT a part of the TriStar Godzilla universe or timeline. From the '98 movie's "perspective", Final Wars never occurred. Right?

--Swiiman (talk) 05:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I think at the time I was a little annoyed by people trying to change this article and all references into what is basically fannon names. The Article is either about "Godzilla (US)" or "Zilla". Quite frankly, i'm not a Godzilla fan, so I don't really care either way, or what people want to call it. Providing it's not GINO. Gino isn't offical one way or the other. I'm just going with what's sourced. --ACE Spark (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Swiiman. Toho doesn't have the authority to officially rename the creature from the film made by TriStar. I doubt TriStar would even consider Final Wars s part of their Godzilla continuity. "Zilla" really was just Toho making a jab at the TriStar version of Godzilla.--24.147.62.26 (talk) 03:10, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I have merchandise from the 1998 film, and it says that the monster belongs to Toho. 75.157.115.154 (talk) 07:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Toho can call the CGI critter in their movie Zilla or whatever else they want. They can't welch on having licensed the original name to TriStar. TriStar could, if they produced additional material in which they declared the name as changed. You are just being confusing by calling it something other than what is written on the box. JethroElfman (talk) 02:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I went looking for sources that confirm Zilla as Toho's official name. Their site is in Japanese, so I can't tell what's up there. MonsterZero.us, now SciFiJapan.com, doesn't have the editorial up anymore. Most sites use Wikipedia as their source. IMDB references an interview with Kitamura, quoting, "he said that he named the Hollywood version Zilla for his film"[1]. Is there anything substantial out there? This makes "Zilla" something Kitamura came up with as director, rather than as a spokesman for Toho. It also makes it clear he accepted "Zilla" as belonging to Final Wars and not Godzilla (1998). JethroElfman (talk) 03:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

This information is wrong. Toho themselves have stated that Zilla is indeed the American Godzilla and was created as a way to give the fans closure after Roland Emerich took the "God" out of Godzilla. And seeing that TOHO not TriStar OWNS AND LOANED the Godzilla license I believe that gives them all the rights in the world to rename it and put the creators in their place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.110.82 (talk) 16:59, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you JethroElfman. On many sources, sites and information that I can find (including IMDb, Toho Kingdom and the Monster Legacy blog etc.) it appears there never was any real name change, but a global misunderstanding, it actually seems like if Kitamura actually created the name "Zilla" when he created the American Godzilla character that should be in his Final Wars film, but he just didn't want his American Godzilla to bear the same name so obviously he created a new name for his creature so that it would please dissatisfied fans, although the creation of Zilla caused many fans to misinterpret Zilla as an actual new name for the American Godzilla species and as either the actual character Godzilla (which was killed by the way) from the 1998 Godzilla film or Godzilla Junior from Godzilla: The Series. Even if this name change myth was true, it would have been shown more clearly, at least in later movie re-releases and DVD/Blu-ray copyright disclaimers which are still mentioning "Godzilla" instead of "Zilla", but it appears the official statements are actually that Godzilla (1998), Godzilla Junior (1998-2000) and Zilla (2004) are completely different characters based upon the same design and species, and that Zilla is an exclusive Japanese creature that is also exclusive to the Japanese Godzilla: Final Wars. End of story. TurokSwe (talk) 10:16, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Should this page be merged with Godzilla?

The film Godzilla is about Zilla so Zilla is also known as Godzilla and could rightfully be covered on that page. Opinions? 89.100.194.115 (talk) 21:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it is worth mentioning Zilla in the main Godzilla page but still worth it to have a seperate article. --Blackbox77 (talk) 03:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

There's really no reason to merge these articles. The Godzilla articles is long enough as it is and Toho (the company which created Godzilla) has shown they draw a distiction between this monster and Godzilla, both in naming him differently and in having him appear in the same film as Godzilla. I think instead of merging this with Godzilla a page cover ALL the Toho companies monsters who do not require their own pages should be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.234.146.46 (talk) 07:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Zilla article, to me, looks big enough to stay seperate from Godzilla. --Andromedabluesphere440 (talk) 18:44, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

why should we merge it? there both big enough articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.37.99 (talk) 20:12, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

As of 2004, they have been considered separate entities, both by Toho and the fanbase. The only reason there should be a merger if individual notability was not established, and I can see there is no reception section but if anyone could take over the Zilla article, reception would be established in a snap. Merger is definitely unessecary. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 19:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Zilla is a different character, and Toho intentionally wanted to separate Godzilla from Zilla which is why he renamed the Zilla character to what it is. If we mention Zilla on the Godzilla article, then we would have to mention all the other Kaizu on there too. ScienceApe (talk) 22:07, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

No to merge. Just as Clover gets its own article, this incarnation of Godzilla can have its own, being so distinctive from the rubber-suit version. For that matter, I much prefer the title "American Godzilla", with a note about the appearance in Final Wars. They don't get to change the character's name 10 years later. The creature in the 1998 movie was obviously called Godzilla. It's eponymous! You don't get better than that for being the definitive name. It's not like the term Xenomorph used by fans for the Alien; it's spelled out for you on the screen and on the cover of the box. A look-alike or parody was used in Final Wars, and called Zilla for that appearance, without changing what it was called in its original appearance. JethroElfman (talk) 06:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Definitely don't merge them. Within the 1998 Godzilla movie, it's clear it is a different creature. In two following Toho films, it was made clear that while they may share a continuity, they are different creatures.El Gonz (talk) 18:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Zilla is its own creature, Toho even said that it has little relation to Godzilla.

No, ridiculous idea, especially since every other Godzilla monster has their own page, and Zilla is officially a separate creature in Godzilla canon. Yonskii (talk) 23:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The American Godzilla certainly deserves to be mentioned on the Godzilla page because of the fact that the American Godzilla is another kind of Godzilla, because it was a remake of the Godzilla creature, and because it is the American Godzilla. Zilla is just another character, Zilla is not the species, the species is American Godzilla. The species includes the characters/monsters Godzilla (1998), Baby Godzilla (1998), Godzilla Junior (1998-2000), Cyber-Godzilla (1998-2000), and Zilla (2004), and they're all American Godzillas (despite that the creature Zilla (2004) is Japanese). In short, true Godzillas. TurokSwe (talk) 16:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Pro-Toho bias

Please use this as a place to corral all discussions of bias in this article so that the template can be removed promptly. Universaladdress (talk) 12:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. BDD and Andrewa both have valid concerns about the article, but they're outside the scope of RM and need to be addressed elsewhere. Jenks24 (talk) 14:34, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

---

Zilla → American Godzilla – This page is obviously mostly about the fictional American Godzilla species, where the characters Godzilla (1998), Baby Godzilla (1998), Godzilla Junior (1998-2000), Cyber-Godzilla (1998-2000), and Zilla (2004) belongs, and because of the fact that Zilla (2004) is just another character/monster within the American Godzilla species I don't think that "Zilla" is an appropriate name for this page, since the page seems to cover the whole American Godzilla species with all characters within it and not just Zilla (2004). The current name was obviously based upon the famous name change myth, but no sources indicate that there ever was a name change for the species or the other characters. It actually appears that Ryuhei Kitamura named his creature Zilla exclusively for the 2004 film "Godzilla: Final Wars" and that Zilla's appearance in the film caused a huge misintepretation and misunderstanding among fans that actually falsely believed the American Godzilla to have been renamed Zilla, while Zilla was actually just another character within the American Godzilla species. TurokSwe (talk) 16:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support Yeah, I guess that accurately describes what's going on here, but separating this from Godzilla seems like pedantic WP:FANCRUFT. Stay tuned for my article on Daniel Craig James Bond, where I explain how the James Bond portrayed by Daniel Craig is a distinct character because he looks different. :/ --BDD (talk) 17:46, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • The name change was a widely spread myth, and by myth it means it's not real. There are no official statements that Zilla is the new name for the American Godzilla species and its characters, there are however some statements that Zilla is just a different character with its own exclusive name. This page still covers the whole American Godzilla species and therefore "Zilla" is not an appropriate name. If we're naming this page after the characters within the species rather than the actual species name (American Godzilla) then we could aswell name this page Godzilla, Godzilla Junior, Baby Godzilla, or why not Cyber-Godzilla? Just because a special amount of people are familiar with the name "Zilla" doesn't mean we have to name the page "Zilla". The page should be named after what it describes, and it describes the American Godzilla species, and not just one of all its characters. I honestly don't see how this is a matter of "weak support". Again, there are no official statements that "Zilla" is the name of this fictional species, and the best and most famous sources tells that "Zilla" is not the name of the species. There are even people who don't know about the name change myth and still stay to the idea that the American Godzilla is the real name for the species. "American Godzilla" is the best title for this page. TurokSwe (talk) 20:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

It's weak because I'm skeptical that this article should even exist, not that I disagree with your reasoning. To people who aren't fans of the series, such as me, the "American Gozilla" from the Emmerich film was simply a modern interpretation of the original character. --BDD (talk) 20:14, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand, but since there are articles on other Godzilla-monsters why not having this one exist? It's true that the American Godzilla was a modern interpretation, but it is also in one way a different monster, or at least according to some, but I think I understand your point. But even if this article shouldn't exist, at least it doesn't deserve to be called Zilla instead of American Godzilla. TurokSwe (talk) 20:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: In terms of WP:AT there seems no case either way above. Suggest also urgent work on the lead, it's currently [2] one over-long paragraph containing some not very encyclopedic and even not very English phrasing. Multiple issues with the article as flagged but IMO the lead is a good place to start. Andrewa (talk) 20:23, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Current merge discussion (March 2013)

It seems the consensus has definitely shifted from the obsolete 2010 merge discussion above on this page. Interesting development - a strong opinion in the above rename discussion seemed to be that the page should be merged, not renamed, although this was understandably not an option under that discussion. Strong opinion seems to be that the existence of this page is WP:FANCRUFT (as indicated by the bizarre intro text that doesn't really qualify as encyclopedic and instead serves as an apologia for the page's existence) and that it should be merged with Godzilla. Discussion above also notes that BDD and Andrewa's concerns need a place to be aired, so this is it. ToFeignClef (talk) 01:50, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think the page shouldn't be merged, because the American Godzilla is neither officially recognized by Toho or the greater majority of the fanbase as being Godzilla in any way, other than bearing the name. You can ask millions of Godzilla and Zilla fans, and they would at least admit that the American Godzilla and Godzilla are different things.
  Merging this page with Godzilla would be excactly like merging Final Fantasy III with Final Fantasy VI; the American version is not the japanese version, not officially in the name or the design. If possible, the most that can be done would just be mentioning Godzilla 1998 in the Godzilla article, but not claiming that they are in fact, the same being.
  (Check the Gino thread down below for strong facts regarding Zilla and the 'Zilla-name change misconception' misconception. I meant to type misconception twice, because that is what it is. 493Titanollante (talk) 23:26, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Gino

It says in this article that GINO is Godzilla, and it is not at all (and I've got very strong facts to prove it). Here are some pictures from the GMK movie to prove that this is not officially recognized as Godzilla by Toho. Click the links to see the pictures.

[3] [4] [5]

You can buy the DVD of Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack, or just look for this bit on YouTube and you can see these people say that this is not Godzilla. Also, after Sony's rights to Godzilla expired in 2003, the creature couldn't be left in the air and Toho assumed the creature's copy-rights. The reason the 2006 DVD re-release still says "GODZILLA used with permission" etc., is because of the very obvious fact: They named the film, "GODZILLA". When TriStar 'took advantage by re-releasing GODZILLA', they just took advantage, and they didn't alter anything in the film whatsoever-- not the Title of the movie, not the name of the creature, not the copyrights on the back, nothing was changed except just moving the GODZILLA movie from VHS to DVD.

So, these are some very good and strong points I'm giving. You may still call this thing, which is officially known as ZILLA, American Godzilla, but the whole 'misconception' thing about the Zilla-Name Change is actually true, and it was proven in Final Wars. Just look at these creatures in Final Wars and in the movie. Do they look any different from each other?

[6] [7]

I didn't think so either. Not to mention that the 1998 GODZILLA film and Godzilla: Final Wars do not take place in the same timeline and/or Universe, so it could very so be the 1998 creature without any plotholes whatsoever. At least Zilla Jr (from Godzilla: The Series) had some differences from his father, like actually being durable and having a beam, as well as being a different color; these two look exactly alike, except the 2004 Zilla is CGI of lesser quality. Also, it cannot be stated that Zilla is 'more destructive' or 'eats humans' or anything, because Zilla was being mind-controlled by the Xiliens, which would obviously mean it would have a different personality, just like the other Final Wars kaiju like Rodan, Anguirus, and King Caesar, who are known to be defenders of Earth rather than the monsters who cause destruction.

All this means is that the 'Zilla Name-Change Misconception' is a misconception itself, with millions of Godzilla and Zilla fans knowing the truth that Toho changed the creature's name to Zilla. I hope this is enough evidence from Toho and TriStar themselves that Zilla is, as a matter of fact, not Godzilla in any way.

PS: Isn't it ironic that 'The American Godzilla' is a French Polynesian Iguana? 493Titanollante (talk) 19:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to a video that uses my points to argue that Toho officially renamed the 1998 creature to Zilla. Everyone should check it out. 493Titanollante (talk) 03:25, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Why is it being changed to American Godzilla?

First off, American Godzilla isn't an official character. Secondly, the character has been copyrighted as Zilla. It used to be copyrighted as Godzilla but Toho has changed his name ala MOUGERA.--KPLives! (talk) 01:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Needs to be moved back to Zilla

The claims that the "Zilla" name is unofficial or that it applies only to the Final Wars incarnation are blatantly false. The NAME and DESIGN have been TRADEMARKED by Toho; check the corporate logo on the back of the Godzilla: Final Wars DVD. This is what is known as a retcon. Its name is retroactively (and more important, LEGALLY) "Zilla" and it's NOT this article's place to dispute that, for this would be Original Research and against wikipedia's rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.43.174 (talk) 15:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I second this motion, it's been officially and legally copyrighted as Zilla by Toho, the above arguments by 493Titanollante are MORE than sufficient enough. And all the edits by TurokSwe are nothing but disruptive and bias lies, and he has NOT learned his lesson about the edit war policy, as he has gone and went RIGHT back to what he was doing and changed this page back to his biased version! Please, someone from the Administration REALLY should ban him! 66.26.66.25 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, the name dispute doesn't really matter. "Zilla" is a simple and effective way of differentiating the two creatures, and with a new Hollywood-produced film in the makings, "American Godzilla" could only cause further confusion. And I know that a common comparison would be between Mothra and Mothra Leo, or Mechagodzilla and Kiryu, but they were both still in movies entitled "Mothra", "Mothra 2", "Mothra 3," and "Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla" and "Godzilla x Mechagodzilla"; Not "Mothra Leo," "Mothra Leo 2", "Mothra Leo 3" or "Godzilla x Kiryu." What the creatures are called isn't particularly important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.160.210.161 (talk) 04:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not the name "Zilla" is a matter of a name change or not is a matter of opinion and speculations relly [the real name for American Godzilla], since we only have speculations and asumptions to go on until an official statement is made confirming a[movies and icons and a lot of evidence of the] name change. Look at my altered version, it is not biased. The current version of the article does not claim that the name change is true but niether that it is not true. Stop being so ignorant and please try to see this [is very truthful and correct]. I'm trying to [not] contribute to the neautrality of this article, so should you, but that cannot happen as long as you stand on just one side (being biased) and thereby including opinions [a neutral playing field and see everything how it really is]. The article cannot use assumptions and speculations but it needs to be verified [yeah, just like me, i use blog sites as a reliable source, and the reliable source is a photo from a VCR, but the author and I believe it's from a 2006 DVD. Of course, we like lying to everyone], and as long as a name change cannot be verified the article should not be based on a name change claim [is real (which I and certain other Zilla fanboys on YouTube and DeviantART don't want to accept]. A monster icon does not confirm a name change, it can['t] be interpreted in different ways, therefore people assume that this measn one thing when it could also mean another thing [wow, I'm a really confused middle-schooler, I use monster icons from a DVD re-release as proof that Zilla's name is actually "Godzilla", yet I say that a monster icon from Godzilla's parent studio is up to interpretation. God I'm a genius!]. You cannot use that as evidence, what you need is conclusive and reliable evidence [like personal blog sites which use pictures from a VCR release of GODZILLA and pass it off as a 2006 DVD re-release of GODZILLA. See, isn't that marvelous and reliable?], like an official statement from a spokesman of Toho confirming a name change [or an official statement from TriStar DISproving the name change :)]. We cannot go on fan-assumptions, speculations and opinions here, it doesn't matter if the article contradicts your view and opinion/belief using the very clear evidence that we have from the movies from Toho, such as the new monster icon, the extreme similarities with 2004 Zilla and 1998 Zilla, the statement from GMK, all the random variables in Godzilla: Final Wars, the fact that TriStar didn't give Toho the 3D model of Zilla, etc. etc. etc.... there's so much evidence against my fan-beliefs, but I just srug them off, get into endless arguments, call the truthful people names like "butt-hurt" and "liars" and say things like "grow up" even though if you check my FaceBook, you can clearly see that I'm a middle-schooler (don't believe me about me saying that stuff? Scroll down the comments of videos like "Godzillathon 23", "Gareth Edwards from the set of Godzilla", "American Godzilla is NOT ZILLA", etc....) I'm a very hateful person, and I just disguise this all in my Wikia and DeviantART account! I created my own "Gojira" Wiki, so I can take down Wikizilla, I created my own, biased Wiki "The American Godzilla Wiki" in which I've loured Zilla fans, turning them into fantrolls like me every second, I have multiple sockpuppet accounts such as "Niko Tatopolous" and "Nicholas09862" on YouTube, I got myself to be very hated on the internet, gaining countless enemies, I've got myself a hater whose account is specifically directed toward hating me, which I call very childish, and whose facts I have shunned, called fan-beliefs, thumbed down, and flagged for spam! I've gotten into arguments with GZilla9000, GodzillaGamera2012, Koopa Meltdown, I called GORIZARD a disruptive editor and got him unrightfully blocked for life! I've blocked every single person I mentioned, and it's because I myself am a butt-hurt swede (no, really, I'm from Sweden) who is obsessed with an American re-imagining of a giant fictional lizard!]. The wikipedia article is based on conclusive and reliable evidence and sources [lies I made up. Have you checked my edits on dinosaur pages? They're so true they got me blocked for using the 3-revert-rule!]'. You need to understand this. Wikipedia is about facts, not assumptions [like the ones I make, ignoring the facts], not even if the facts might be incorrect, it all has to be verified [again, it's ironic how I use a personal, lying blog website which uses a VCR monster Icon to confirm my claim of a 2006 DVD, which according to Toho Kingdom, doesn't even have a monster Icon, saying Zilla still being called Godzilla! I'm the most ironic person in the world, am I right? Well, be sure to go to my channel on YouTube. I'm called TurokSwe there, too. Oh, and watch all the videos on my sock-puppet accounts. Their dislikes are greater than their likes, for some odd reason]. TurokSwe (talk) 11:11, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

it can be interpreted in different ways

Nonsense. There's nothing up to interpretation. The logo has the character's name and design on it, both accompanied by a trademark.

The various Toho monsters have gone by many names over the years, but Toho's official monster logos are what we've always used here to determine what the characters' names are officially. This is why "King Shisa" was moved to King Caesar and "Kamakiras" was moved to Kamacuras back in the day. Doesn't matter what name they may have been referred to originally, we go by their most recently trademarked official english names.

Wikipedia is about facts, yes. Absolutely! And it is a verifiable FACT that Toho has officially trademarked this character design with the name "Zilla". They own it, they decide what's canon.

What official, legal capacity has the name "American Godzilla" (emphasis mine) ever been used for this character, anyway? None. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Doesn't appear on any of Toho's corporate logos or trademarks. This article's very name is guilty of speculation! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.43.174 (talk) 13:17, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Two Pages

It's great to see this page has been moved back to its original title but apparently, there's a copy of this same wiki page? - Armegon —Preceding undated comment added 08:47, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I've noticed this as well, now that the editing war is over, and the Zilla page has been restored, there's no need for this American Godzilla page anymore. It should be deleted, and the redirect should be reversed, so that when people type in "American Godzilla", it should be redirected to the Zilla page. Kaiju-Human (talk) 06:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Hm, that's very true. No more TurokSwe means no more reverting facts, so we should do it. 108.214.32.91 (talk) 03:37, 1 May 2013 (UTC)