Talk:M (James Bond)

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Judi Dench / etc

I'm a bt peeved about this reversion - as I state in edit summary, "M*** M******" is not a set of initials - MM would be the initials, and lacking any specific word for what "M**** M*******" is, I think my edit is perfectly justified. As for Judi Dench, if it's notable she this M has children and that other Ms have family, it's notable that her M is married and that her husband died. -mattbuck (Talk) 10:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Not really - your version was a truly horrible mess. The current version is not only still correct (the only identifying aspect is the initials, rather than anything else) and has the advantage of being supported by the citation and the version that Fleming used in the novel. As to Dench, your edit needs to carry a reference - this article avoids primary references (or the unencyclopaedic "implicit references") wherever possible as they are the bastions of fancruft, WP:OR and arguments (and articles should never, ever, ever carry the word "presumably": he either is or isn't and the film does not make it clear). Everything else here carries a suitable citation and there is no reason why this should be different. - SchroCat (^ • @) 10:42, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I seriously cannot understand why the world "presumably" cannot be used. I see that, as an authoritative writing, the article cannot presume, per se, but in this case, the presumption is in the mind of nearly every person who saw the movie. Is there a way of including that information while still allowing that a viewer might assume it's her husband; especially now that we know that she did have a husband before the events of Skyfall? Also, I don't think the word "denouement" is correct, here. M dies in the climax of the film, that is to say at the end of the climactic battle. The new M is introduced, along with the new Moneypenny, in the denouement of the film. (Nedclubned (talk) 18:20, 20 November 2012 (UTC))

Because "presumably" is among the least encyclopaedic words available. "Presumably" means you are making a connection between two things you have seen for which there are plausibly alternative explanations. How do you know it's her husband? She could have been having an affair (a case of art mirroring life?), or was this a relationship after her husband's death? No-one knows, so "presumably" is essentially WP:OR: you've put your spin on two short scenes in two films and drawn an unsupportable conclusion. It's nothing but bloody awful fancruft, which is why nothing goes in unless it's supported by sources. - SchroCat (talk) 18:34, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Ms last appearance in Skyfall?

Why does it say that Skyfall is the final appearance of M? The character will be in the next film as we have a new M played by Ralph Fiennes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.132.166 (talk) 14:22, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Not sure it does say that, does it? I can see it says Dench's character dies, which is correct, but that's not the same thing. - SchroCat (talk) 14:26, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes it says at the top of the page "last appearance: Skyfall." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.132.166 (talk) 19:33, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

That's because it is the last appearance to date. Before Skyfall was released it said Quantum of Solace; when the next one comes out it will have that title in there. - SchroCat (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

I can understand how some would find that very misleading. Just to give an example the page for the Doctor Who/Torchwood character "Jack Harkness" it does not give his last appearance because he has not had his final appearance yet. Neither has the character of M, so the "last appearance: Skyfall" should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.133.209 (talk) 18:58, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

It's an interesting thought, but on balance the title of the film where they last appeared is suitable and certainly fits within the guidelines for the relevant field information. Thanks - SchroCat (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be two different ones? Because if it was a characters final appearance just say 'last', which you've got to confess it does mostly imply the last one. And the other one could be 'latest'. Charlr6 (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

No, there's no field for latest. Either way, it's a bit crystal ball gazing to say that there will definately be another film. Anthing could happen that would stop the series, or mean that M is not involved and we would have an incorrect entry. The last film M was in was Skyfall: that's entirely true. - SchroCat (talk) 19:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

It has been announced there will be more movies, and I doubt any of us would really think that in like two months times it would turn out that there is never going to be another Bond film after Michael Wilson and Barbara Broccoli decide its enough.

I've only just realised this, but there isn't actually a page for James Bond for the film version of Bond is there? It is just literacy, and I've checked the page and it is mostly about the character in the book, and the 'last appearance' there says "Carte Blanche". Charlr6 (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Very true on the planned next film, but there was an announcement of Dalton's third film, which never happened too (unforseen legal issues). No one foresaw MGM almost going bankrupt (thus the gap between QoS and Skyfall, which saw the series nearly disappear again. Things happen: no one can be certain there will be another film, or that it will contain M.

There is a film character article ready to go live, but I need to revamp one of the other articles before I launch it to ensure it survives scrutiny (I tried to do it before, but someone had it deleted saying there was already an article that covered it - they got it seriously wrong: they were too blind to see what was in front of them and too arrogant to back down later on). I'm hoping to get it launched in the next couple of weeks... watch this space! - SchroCat (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

James Bond wasn't really at a high point with Dalton's films. Were received better critically, but not at the box office sadly.

Thats good about the film character article. I only just thought "why isn't there one?". And if anyone thinks that the literacy article covers mostly everything then they are too blind. Haha. But I look forward to seeing it. Charlr6 (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Full name of M

It should be noted somewhere that the new M in Skyfall is the only screen M for whom a full name has been revealed. The Bernard Lee M was only ever once referred to as "Miles"; his last name was only revealed in the novels. And assuming the Robert Brown M is indeed Hargreaves (some aspects of fandom believe Brown to be playing the same man as Bernard Lee), we've never learned Hargreaves' first name. And we never heard either a first nor last name on screen for the Dench M, not even in Skyfall (I believe Raymond Benson gave her a name, but that's not the same as uttering it on screen). 70.72.211.35 (talk) 03:23, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable secondary source to support it, and you consider it passes WP:WEIGHT and WP:FANCRUFT, then it is should certainly be considered. - SchroCat (talk) 03:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Apparently Mallory calls Dench's M "Eleanor" in the film but I didn't catch that when watching it earlier today. Someone should verify that. --Kevin W./Talk•CFB uniforms/Talk 00:14, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

That quote was in the movie. It's on IMDB and I caught it when I saw that scene. Mallory says something like, "Eleanor, you should retire with your dignity", to which M replies, "To Hell with dignity, I'll retire when the job's done!" 98.228.231.176 (talk) 05:20, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

She's called M by Mallory, not Eleanor. IMDB isn't a reliable source as it's filled in by other people who didn't hear things properly. - SchroCat (talk) 10:39, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed about IMDB's reliability so far as quotes go. I've seen some wrong ones. Plus I don't remember M being called 'Eleanor' though it is possible it did happen....William 19:15, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Club membership

Isn't it possible that M is simply quite wealthy (through inheritance maybe?) and works because he wants to rather than out of necessity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.81.0 (talk) 17:30, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Entirely possible, but Fleming doesn't cover that so we can't. What we have covered is the membership question that was raised by one of the reliable sources, who also didn't speculate on the possibility that M was independently wealthy but worked out of a sense of duty. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 05:18, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Olivia Mansfield

Can this be credit as M's name? [1] Jonesy702 (talk) 18:15, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd rather defer to SchroCat about this. I'm not sure comingsoon.net counts as a reliable source, but I have seen the still in question on a website and yes, the bulldog box clearly says "Olivia Mansfield bequeaths James Bond". - Fantr (talk) 20:38, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

But we don't have any confirmation that "Olivia Mansfield" is actually M's name. Dialgoue in Casino Royale implies that her name is a closely-guarded secret, so it's entirely plausible that her will was read under a pseudonym to protect her identity even in death. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

It's been confirmed by Eon Productions: "We’ve searched around and as far as we can see this is the first and only time anyone’s ever revealed M’s real name. It may not have been spoken, but if you were watching on a big enough screen it could have been visible, so we’d argue it’s now canon." [[2]] I'd say that's pretty conclusive. Prioryman (talk) 11:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Well done for ignoring silly things like WP:BRD, or bothering to search for a source that's more reliable. Good work! - SchroCat (talk) 11:43, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I know the DM has a questionable reputation for news reporting, but we should treat it on a case-by-case basis. In this case the journalist has evidently called Eon and got a quote from them. What do you expect other sources to do? Call Eon themselves and get the same quote? I can't see anyone wanting to do that - it would be a waste of effort, as the DM's already done it, and would add nothing to any story. It's not a contentious topic and there's no particular reason to suppose that the quote is inaccurate, fabricated or misrepresented. Blindly reverting on the grounds that "it's the DM" is not a sensible thing to do in such a situation. Prioryman (talk) 11:55, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

EON didn't confirm anything. The Daily Mail stole the quote from that blog that posted the information two months ago. EON never made that quote. The blog writer did. --68.45.60.81 (talk) 20:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Excellent work 68.45.60.81. DM did indeed steal the quote. Therefore the name has no place in the article. - Fantr (talk) 22:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that. I agree that it's unsuitable for inclusion. Incidentally, there is an interesting report in today's New York Times that mentions the DM's practice of stealing content, which seems to be endemic: [3]. Prioryman (talk) 21:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Yep, it's one of the things that makes them (nearly) inherently unreliable as a source. - SchroCat (talk) 07:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I amended this article with Olivia Mansfield's name without seeing this talk page. Should have checked first and the reversion was correct. That said, in this article from The Metro, http://metro.co.uk/2013/05/07/james-bond-fan-uncovers-ms-real-name-from-skyfall-scene-3714729/, Meg Simmons, archive director for Bond production company Eon, said: ‘We’ve searched around and as far as we can see this is the first and only time anyone’s ever revealed M’s real name. ‘It may not have been spoken, but if you were watching on a big enough screen it could have been visible, so we’d argue it’s now canon.’

That seems to be a verifiable quote from the horse's mouth so I will reinstate "Olivia Mansfield" as the name of the character in a few days unless someone can suggest a reason why not. Hope that helps!

Mommy/Mummy

To IP:121.223.36.187, please don't revert again without discussing it here first and gaining a consensus. (See WP:BRD, which explains that after you make a Bold edit that someone Reverts, you Discuss on the talk page, you don't revert again). Regarding the substantive parts of your edit. Firtly, M is shot and killed. We do not say that she dies instantly, and this article does not need the whole plot spelled out here, as it is all written out in the Skyfall article for people to read. Secondly, please watch the film and pay attention to what Bardem says. He doesn't say "Mummy", he says the American form "Mommy". Although the rest of the article is written in British English, this diversion into Americanese is justified because it is what Bardem actually says. - SchroCat (talk) 11:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Concur with SchroCat. He clearly says "Mommy". - Fantr (talk) 17:46, 18 March 2013 (UTC)