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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 116.255.8.253 (talk) at 09:24, 21 May 2013 (→Namba wan Jesus man????). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Bai

Is it true that the future marker "bai" comes from English "by and by"? I thought it came from Portuguese "vai" ("goes"). Portuguese has influenced a lot of pidgins and creoles around the world, even pidgins/creoles which are not Portuguese-based. --Antonielly (talk) 10:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Tok Pisin "bai" is an abbreviated alternative of the Tok Pisin word "baimbai" which derives from the old fashioned English expression "by and by." ~~CMC~~

In Tok Pisin, bai means "will". For example: "Em bai wokim" means "he will work". Αδελφος (talk) 15:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, it would mean "He will make it" - verbs with "im" are transitive. "Wok", especially in the transitive sense generally corresponds to English "make" rather than "work". English "will", in this construction, is a future tense marker, corresponding pretty precisely to Pidgin "bai" (which, as someone said) is straight from "bye and bye", and has no Portugese connotation whatsoever. ---Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In Brazilian Portuguese, he will work would be translated as ele vai trabalhar... Albeit I think Europeans would prefer ele trabalhará. 177.98.96.111 (talk) 13:40, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pis

I removed the statements that "pis" can mean "piss" or "beach" (in addition to "fish, "peace", etc.) since this is NOT true. "Piss" is "pispis", "beach" is "nambis". —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcusCole12 (talk • contribs) 03:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MarcusCole12 (talk)

Broken English

Just edited the link to "savvy" out, i dont think tok pisin has anything to do with a californian wrestler MikeTango 22:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A Tok-Pisin Wikipedia just opened. Please contribute!

--Milaiklainim 5 April 2004

why does Broken english ridirect here?

  • Good question. --Whimemsz 01:00, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
I believe "Broken English" and just plain "Broken" are common names for various English-based pidgins and creoles. Torres Strait Creole also goes by these names. They are surely considered pejorative these days. — Hippietrail 03:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
AFAIK, "broken English" refers to the poorly-spoken English by non-native speakers... not any specific dialects/pidgins/creoles, etc. - SigmaEpsilon → ΣΕ 15:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, pidgins and creoles are not broken English. I've changed the redirect, so Broken english now goes to Broken English (the Marianne Faithfull album). There's a (rather dubious) disamb notice on that page. -- Wantok 05:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Creoles are not “broken English,” but AFAIK several non-standard varieties are referred to by native speakers as “broken,” including perhaps Torres Strait Creole and, for example, Nigerian Pidgin English. —Wiki Wikardo 20:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Why is this article not at Tok Pisin language, instead of that location redirecting here? --Whimemsz 20:22, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

  • Probably because Tok Pisin is only a language, and nothing else, whereas English for example can refer to either the English language or to people from England; on the other hand, there are no people called "Tok Pisin," it refers only to the language. -- DocSigma 20:49, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nb. "bikpela" does not primarily mean God. It primarily means "big." To put "God" as the primary meaning is to miss an important TP idiom (God is big, get it?). Besides which, it is more common to say "Papa God" where one would invoke The Big Judeo-Christian Diety in the Sky, anyways. 68.7.98.29 03:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What is the basis for the statement that German creole (whatever that is) was used in German New Guinea? German New Guinea only lasted from 1884 to 1914 -- hardly long enough for creolisation. The influence of German on New Guinea Pidgin is decidedly minor compared to that of English -- the frequently proposed etymology of haus as coming from the German haus is just plain daft: obviously haus is simply house in the Pidgin orthography. Fr. Frank Mihalic's Jacaranda Dictionary and Grammar of Melanesian Pidgin (Milton, Qld: Jacaranda, 1971) remains the single most authoritative source and he simply states it to be "E."Masalai 18:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the info here is inaccurate, it seems. According to Wurm and Mulhausler's "Handbook of Tok Pisin", Tok Pisin has /N/ phonemically. Amungst other things. Bryan 82.44.212.6 21:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A reading of the article on Unserdeutsch indicates that the creole developed over more than the German era (the German influence in the Catholic orphanage referred to continued after the German era). But thirty years of first contact is plenty of time to develop a pidgin - which is all the German era helped to do; the creolization of Tok Pisin is a more recent development. Don't underestimate the German influence. The use of haus pre-dates major english influence, and it is highly likely that it did at least in part have German impetus in its use. The word for hospital haus sik translates a German structure which is not used in English - "krankenhaus". Another example is manki (see my comments below) - which is NOT derived from English - its use was common in the former German Territories, and NO WHERE ELSE in the world where the English had influence, and where piccaninny or its equivalent prevailed. The influence has faded, but is not entirely gone. Regards, Colin Richardson

  • I've got a question to the following word (in Vocabulary):

maski - it doesn't matter, don't worry about it

Does it come from German "macht nichts" (or like "machnix" in some dialects) which has the same meaning?

Vadimka 00:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to Mihalic, yes. Masalai 14:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Manki

  • Just edited vocab word manki. It is not derived from English "monkey" as is commonly believed. As the German influence has faded it is often forgotten that many Tok Pisin words had their origin in the German colonial era in New Britain and northern New Guinea. Manki derived from the rather paternalistic put-down German word, männchen (little man) - and until the 1980s was the common Tok Pisin word for a child. A male domestic worker assigned to mind the boss' kids was called manki-masta - the boss of the kids. Due to the distance from the German era, and the dying out of the older generation, most PNG people today believe it derived from English "monkey", and naturally tend to object to its use. In the 1980s, there was a governmental initiative to try and eradicate the use of manki, manki-masta and meri, all perceived as derogatory. In the case of manki they have largely succeeded - it has been largely replaced by pikinini (curiously, derived from the Portuguese "pequenino" - meaning the same thing!) - though manki is still widespread as an equivalent to "kids". Manki-masta was supposed to be replaced by domestik - which never caught on. It is usually replaced by haus man or haus meri. In the case of meri the failure to change it to woman was abysmal - it is too deeply entrenched, and meri is heard everywhere still. Colin Richardson
Can we get a citation for this? Männchen is pronounced [mɛnçən], which I would expect to be adapted to Tok Pisin phonology as something like mensen, not manki. --Ptcamn 12:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily. Historical texts show that the "ch" sound in German was borrowed into the language as "k" One example of this is the early Tok Boi "kirke" from the German "kirche".
Sorry - can't give a citation. It was something I learned in years in PNG, both as a kid 45 yrs ago, and as an adult. The modern German pronunciation you cite is not necessarily final - German has many dialects and regional pronunciations. The Flemish word "mannekin", and the French "mannequin" have a common origin with "männchen", as I understand it - and pronunciations a lot closer to manki. Changes from English into Tok Pisin can be wildly different from the origin - compare pikbel with "pig belly", or banis with "fence" (via Pacific Pidgin "fenis", Bislama "fanis"). Curious that if the origin were "monkey" - why does the same word not appear in other parts of the world where English had influence? The term manki appears only in ex-German New Guinea - not in Solomons, not in former British West Africa, not in Vanuatu, not in Aboriginal pidgins - all of whom use variations on "piccaninny". Significant, I think. Cheers, Colin
Of course manki (meaning a small boy) comes from "monkey"!! The idea that somehow it shouldn't be is based on a sort of "anti-racist cringe" - or perhaps from confusion with the once common, and genuinely racist/offensive, "PNG English" usage - still heard from expatriate Australians well into the nineteen seventies - of "Rock Ape", meaning a PNG national, especially a particularly thick headed one. The idea of it being derived from any known German word is extremely far-fetched - the words cited do not resemble each other very closely, as remarked above. Any Australian (remember Australian English is the main source of Pidgin vocabulary) who was a small boy in the nineteen fifties or earlier would probably remember the tendency of adults (including his own parents) to call him a "little monkey" - and perhaps even warning him on visiting the zoo to keep out of the way of the keepers lest he get put in the monkey cage by mistake. Correct derivation of "Manki" is something like "Small boy - from jocular/affectionate Australian English slang monkey = small boy. I think this only started to be called into question at all when the custom of calling boys monkeys in Australian English had become less fashionable. Incidentally, this makes it clear (I hope) why the word never got a hold in places where non-Australian forms of English formed the basis of creoles. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 04:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are several problems with this theory too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that your arguments are "wrong" but they are certainly debatable.
i) The term "monkey" to refer to a child is common in British English even to this day. It's not used exclusively to refer to male children, it isn't and never has been specific to any period of time and has never been a feature limited to Australian English. Therefore using this as explanation of it's use in a given time, place or gender relevent to Australian English not completely sound.
ii) Texts from the early 20th century show the use of two different words. "Manki" to refer to a boy or unmarried man, and "monki" to actually refer to a monkey. Whereas there are many hundreds of examples of Tok Pisin applying multiple definitions to a single English derived word, there is not one instance (that I'm aware of) of Tok Pisin taking a single english word and then separating it into two different words with different meanings and pronunciations (excepting of course "doubling-up" such as "lukim" / "luklukim"). In short, if both these words and meanings were derived from a single English word, this would be a freak occurance. It may simply be that differences are down to regional pronunciation or that the transcribers were subconciously influenced by English spelling, but we simply can't be sure beyond doubt.
iii) Historical texts show that the "ch" sound in German was borrowed into the language as "k" One example of this is the early Tok Boi "kirke" from the German "kirche". Ruling out the proposed German origin on the grounds expected phonological transformation, would seem to be premature. Now, the question of the missing "n" remains, but there are valid explanations for that too.
iv) Why is an extended derivation of "monkey (monkey) > boy (manki) > unmarried man (manki)" easier to believe than one of "young man (mannchen) > unmarried man (manki)" once the phonological issues are removed?
In short, the origin of the word is a matter of reasonable dispute, and one which goes back to references in the 1930s at least. Your theory about modern political correctness "might" be true and is certainly ineresting, but without an academic citation it should not be included. What is also plausible is that this is a case of multiple words giving birth to singular term in a creole, of which there are several examples. e.g. antap - on top (English = on top) + atap - roof (Tolai = roof) or sanga = forked branch, tongs (English = shanghai for catapult, German = Zange for pliers, Malay = tjang for branch) It may well be that the word came from multiple sources and was adopted variously in terms of time and place, with different origins and conotations, then ultimately both words "merged" due to similarity in meaning and sound. Neither origin seems to be completely satisfactory on its own. That's just my theory though.
The matter would seem to be a matter of valid academic discussion and far from settled, so I have edited the entry accordingly to remove bias and uncited claims and simply say that the origin is disputed, quoting both suggestions.Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have further edited this to preserve the mention of the possible "German derivation" while reducing "waffle" and labouring the "dispute" bit a little less. Your point that other English speakers also call small boys monkeys taken (I'd only heard it here). Derivations of words, even in languages with extended literary traditions, are of course often unclear and ambiguous. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough :)Bearinasidecar (talk) 11:14, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Sorry for the "original research" but I think we all know there are not too many official sources on Tok Pisin.) When I lived in Lae and learned Tok Pisin from people there, they said "Mangi" for boy. The lady who taught me most was from Sepik, but I learned from a wide bunch from Tari, Goroko and all over the place. They all said "Mangi". Of course they all spoke Pisin as a 2nd language and I'm Scottish, so also not mother tounge. 206.248.129.83 (talk) 22:25, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just quietly we are all in "original research" mode here for the same reason you are! But there is of course no doubt at all that "Manki" in pidgin is the usual term for a boy, unless there has been, at least in some circles, a kind of cringe away from it. The dispute is over the idea that it might NOT be derived from the English word "Monkey". Well, I suppose that is just possible - frankly the (very) obvious derivation seems to me to be, well, very obvious - and I honestly can't think what the need to bring in German words is, especially when the sound (as opposed to the spelling) is actually quite distinct. Won't repeat my old comments, which remain very aposite. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:12, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shadowoflinux 20:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that's fixed now. Really, when you see a broken link, you can just go ahead and fix it - no need to consult. Wantok 01:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tok Pisin Wikipedia and Wiktionary

For those with an interest in Tok Pisin who are not watching WikiProject Melanesia, there's a move afoot to revitalise the Tok Pisin Wiktionary and the Tok Pisin Wikipedia. Please go to the discussion page, and specific subpages for Wiktionary and Wikipedia, if you are interested. Wantok (toktok) 10:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have been doing some work over there but it is going slow at the moment. I am currently expanding the New York City (Niu Yok Siti) and the Washington D.C. page (Wosinten D.K.). If anyone else is interested, please help expand the Tok Pisin Wikipedia. Αδελφος (talk) 15:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vocabulary list

I'd like to remove the vocabulary list for Tok Pisin. It doesn't belong here. I'll leave the couple of sentences there, though, and add one or two examples for the languages of borrowing, though. Vocabulary should go into Wiktionary. If no one complains, I'll do it tomorrow or someday. — N-true (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree that the vocabulary enntries should go into the Tok Pisin Wiktionary, but there's a good reason why they won't, or can't, be put there.  Up until July 2007, when I was removed as a Tok Pisin administrator for the both the Tok Pisin Wikipedia and the Tok Pisin Wiktionary, I had been working on producing a significant revision/upgrade to the existing (but exceptionally minimal) Tok Pisin Wiktionary (tpi.wiktionary.org). My philosophy back then was (and still is) that the two Tok Pision Wikis should be bilingual, so that contributions to them could be made by anyone, regardless of the level of their ability to read/write/speak Tok Pisin. My removal as administrator was contentious, an intense conflict between my bilingual philosophy and another user's TPI-only philosophy, a user who most vehemently insisted that the two Wikis should be entirely in Tok Pisin -- and wanted me removed and have himself appointed as the Tok Pisin administrator. The new administrator then began translating into Tok Pisin all of the English-language editing functions, tabs, and contents in both Wikis.  In the process, the new administrator also deleted all the extensive work I had done to revise, edit and upgrade both the TPI Wikipedia and the TPI Wiktionary, effectively setting both Wikis back to the condition in which I originally found them.  As for the TPI Wiktionary, you can actually see now at tpi.wiktionary.org what that Wiki looked like before I began working to bring the Wiki up to the appearance and standards of other foreign language Wiktionaries.   Most hurtful to both Wikis was that that after completing his translation into Tok Pisin of the editing functions in the two Wikis (a process that took him about three months), the new administrator just dropped everything and walked away from the project.  As I predicted back then, nothing has been done or contributioins made to either Wiki since that time.  I think you'll be able to see what I mean when I say that unless you either speak, read, or write Tok Pisin you won't be able to add to or edit any entries to the TPI Wiktionary. K. Kellogg-Smith (talk) 15:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

well, I like the vocabulary list, it's interesting. Might as well keep it there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.198.113.130 (talk) 17:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Tok Pisin wiktionary should be mostly Tok Pisin because it is for people who speak Tok Pisin. I think Papua New Guineans would be glad to see a website in their language. Αδελφος (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What about a new page specifically about Tok Pisin vocabulary and etymology? Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Derivation of "pisin"

According to the video series "The Story of Human Language" created by John McWhorter for The Teaching Company, "pisin" is derived from "business." Does anyone have a citation to the contrary? If not, the page should be amended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.94.128 (talk) 23:59, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed this too! There are countless citations saying that the word "pisin" is derived from "pidgin" but whether or not this is just a common assumption or whether the citations in turn refer to a single (correct or incorrect) previous source is anyone's guess. I'll try to find out more...
Does anyone actually know? I've noticed that the Tok Pisin Language page states both as possible origins.Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The English word "pidgin" refers to a KIND of language. In common use it means any kind of "simplified" English (or, more rarely, other language) - typically with a drastically reduced vocabulary, and a (simple and rudimentary) grammar based on or strongly influenced by a language other than English. (This picture has been complicated by linguists - forget about them for the moment!) The original "Pidgin English" was a "trade language" mixture of English and Chinese, used in 18th - 19th century China between European and Chinese merchants. The Portuguese had been in the far east much longer, and it seems there was already a "Pidgin Portuguese", which influenced the original Chinese/English pidgin as well as all later Pidgin English languages.
NOW the derivation of this English word (pidgin) is pretty universally thought to be derived from the (Chinese) Pidgin English word for "business" or "trade". This makes a good deal of sense, and there seems to be no good reason to doubt it. The use of the (English) word "pidgin" (pisin) in the name of the PNG lingua franca, is evidently derived from the name of the earlier (and quite different) Chinese pidgin variety.
So once more - nothing mutually exclusive here! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 19:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Number of Native Speakers

The English version of the site states that there are 1 million native speakers, whereas the Tok Pisin site says 120 000. Does anyone have any firmer figures? I think some consistency would be helpful.Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is often very difficult to determine if an individual growing up in PNG is a "native" pidgin speaker or not. Many children in PNG learn to speak in several languages at once - especially if are born into a linguistically mixed extended family (my own eldest daughter was in this situation for a year or two!). There is a difference between learning some pidgin words and grammatical constructions when very young, and speaking the language properly, as one's "main" language, by the time one is six or seven. Can one be a "native" speaker of more than one language? I suspect some people are, especially in PNG! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've found one reference claiming 122,000 native speakers (50,000 monolinguals) and 4 million L2 speakers. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=tpi Any thoughts? Should these figures be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearinasidecar (talk • contribs) 11:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The figures themselves seem pretty meaningless unless you know exactly where the original figures were derived, and what they mean by "native speaker". To my knowledge attempts to determine the numbers of speakers of different PNG languages by scientific statistical surveying techniques go back at least to 1966-67 - but I'd want to know if there was something up-to-date behind these (very much "rounded") figures, or if they were (say) projections based on "colonial-era" statistics. The website has a terrific bibliography - how much of this is accessible through libraries etc.?? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 18:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar of "i"

Can we have some expansion or citation for the comment; "This may or may not be written separate from the verb, occasionally written as a prefix. It was once thought to be an abbreviation for "he" or "is", but now is thought to be a grammatical construction instead."?

Although, it seems quite clear that "i" does have a grammatical function when used with impersonal constructions and in specifying agents in complex sentences, is it not also the case that the word itself is derived from "he"?

The above comment seems to suggest that the facts are mutually exclusive. Bearinasidecar (talk) 17:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Verbs in Austronesian languages in general tend to include include particles like this. You are correct that "i" derived from "he": just as "yu", "mi" and "ol" (they) are derived from "you", "me", and "all", this is simply obvious common sense. Grammatically however they are (generally) not pronouns in the English sense, but a part of the verb - as in "Barata bilong mi bai i kam kwiktaim" = "My brother will be coming soon". The verb is "bai i kam" = "will come", with a third person singular implication. The facts are certainly NOT mutually exclusive, of course.--Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems we agree :) I've edited the sentence in question so that it doesn't imply mutually exclusive facts.

Melanesian Pidgin

Should Melanesian Pidgin English really redirect here? I’ve seen that term used to refer not to Tok Pisin specifically, but to a larger group which includes Bislama and Pijin. It’s also surmised that Tok Pisin is “perhaps more commonly” called New Guinea Pidgin in English. I don’t speak Tok Pisin and am not from that area of the world, but have only ever heard it called Tok Pisin. —Wiki Wikardo 20:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was just wondering the same thing, actually. But somebody would have to write the article on the group. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Namba wan Jesus man????

Not impossible that a devout Catholic might refer to the Pope that way I suppose - but hardly standard Pidgin usage! Anyway I have cut it from the "vocabulary" list. In any case "Jesus man" seems unlikely - more idiomatic would be "man bilong Jesus". I fear this one is in the category as such "monsters" (obviously composed by Europeans) as "Mikismasta bilong Jesus" for helicopter, or "bigpela bokis sapos yu paitim long maus i kraiaut" for "piano". These (and others) were both quoted to me as "typical" of pidgin (by people who I suspect of knowing much better) before I went to New Guinea - in practice of course unfamiliar ideas are much more likely to result in the coining of a new loan word than a long-winded circumlocution. ---Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree. The phrase "magimix bilong Yesus" (Magimix belonging to Jesus) Is entirely apocryphal. Why would someone use a rare (dare I say entirely unfamiliar given the supposed time this phrase supposedly originated) piece of complicated machinery to badly describe another piece of machinery that many folks in PNG where far more likely to have seen. It sounds like a joke that someone took seriously. Since when is a casual mention in a royal fluff piece by The Gaurdian a respectable resource? Mitch 19:23, 21 May 2013

Tenses of Tok Pisin

This sxn starts out about tense/ aspect marking, but discusses a number of generic grammatical things (prepositions, plurals,...) Either change sxn title, or move the non-tense related stuff elsewhere. Mcswell (talk) 17:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tok Pisin

Mi save gut long Tok Pisin tasol mi gat wanpela kwesten. In English we don't refer to le francais but French. So is it proper to refer to it as Tok Pisin rather than Pidgin English? Masalai (talk) 19:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If there were dozens of unrelated languages all called "French" and only one called "francais" we might well use "francais" to make what we were referring to clear. In this case there are in fact several languages called "Pidgin English" (all named after the original "Pidgin", used as a trade language between Western traders and their Chinese agents in the 18th/19th centuries). In fact the very bad English of someone who is in the early stages of learning English as a second language is often refered to as "Pidgin English". (Cognate terms might be "Franglais", "Chinglish", "Double Dutch", or "Babu English"). "Tok Pisin" on the other hand refers specifically to the language under discussion, and so is the appropritae title for this encyclopedia article. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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