Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

WikiProject Professional Wrestling
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WWE NXT, NXT Wrestling and History of WWE NXT

I'm at a loss here. In my opinion, "NXT Wrestling" is not the same territory as FCW. The article states that it's the same, but the venue changed, the titles were dumped, all storylines were halted, and the show debuted introducing the characters as if they appeared for the first time. To me, it's a completely different show. Furthermore, it seems like it's a completely different show than what "NXT, the reality competition" used to be as well.

I'm thinking we should restructure these articles into:

1. Florida Championship Wrestling, focusing on WWE's old developmental territory that was ran by Steve Keirn from 2007-2012.
2. WWE NXT, the television show that ran from 2010-2012.
3. NXT Wrestling, WWE's new developmental territory at Full Sail University which broadcasts under the name "WWE NXT" in select markets and on Hulu Plus. Although it shares the other TV show's name, we would keep most of its information under this article to avoid confusion.

Now this process would be a little tricky, so what we'll have to do is:

• The article that is currently named "NXT Wrestling" should be moved to "Florida Championship Wrestling" and be stripped of all information regarding the new territory.

• The article that is currently named "WWE NXT" should be moved to "NXT Wrestling" and be filled with the information that was removed from article 1.
• The article that is currently named "History of WWE NXT" should be moved to "WWE NXT" and be stripped of the information regarding the newer version of the television show. We can instead have a small section that links to the above article.

After doing these changes, I think these articles would begin to make more sense while also removing the small bits of content forking that are affecting this topic. What do you guys think? Feedback ^☎ 19:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It sounds good. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:03, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

I like it too. Looking back at the article histories, it seems the "History" article was so named as an attempt to present the developmental territory's current webcasts as a continuation of the reality-type series. It really isn't. oknazevad (talk) 16:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Update

1. I reestablished the Florida Championship Wrestling article officially recognizing that the promotion was disbanded in 2012. The article encompasses the promotion's history throughout it's 5 years and it also includes a list of alumni that are currently featured in WWE programming.
2. The WWE NXT article has been reworked. It focuses now on the NXT Wrestling "promotion" that WWE is running down in Florida. I've requested the article be renamed "NXT Wrestling" at WP:RM citing the consensus reached here. Hopefully, they'll get around to it soon.
3. I have yet to rework the History of WWE NXT article. I've requested it be moved to WWE NXT once the above move is finalized. After that, I'll start working on moving most of the broadcast and episode information into the article.
4. It seems obvious that this new version of "WWE NXT" has no link to the previous version. Therefore, I'm treating them as two distinct homonymous television shows (similar to Knight Rider (1982 TV series) and Knight Rider (2008 TV series)). The first incarnation will be located at "WWE NXT" while the second incarnation will be located at "NXT Wrestling".
5. I know it's a small distinction, but it seems rather misleading for us to continue classifying WWE's developmental program as a "promotion". They are obviously no longer using promotions to farm their talent. They instead are creating their own training facility and using Full Sail University as a venue to air their WWE-branded television show. If we can reach a consensus on this, we can start editing the article to reflect exactly what NXT Wrestling is.

That's all for now. Please voice any concerns, oppositions or ideas below. Thanks, Feedback ^☎ 21:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd call it a promotion. They put on shows, advertise, people buy tickets and watch. Sort of like how colleges have radio stations, kitchens and IT departments. They're still legit, even if they're for training. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:35, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

But if you use that criteria, Smackdown and Raw would each be promotions as well. I think all three brands are on the same boat. Of course, the difference is that NXT has a specific roster, but during the brand extension days, we didn't call each brand a "promotion". WWE is the promotion, the three of them are just different shows. At least, that's how I view it. Feedback ^☎ 02:13, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I viewed Raw and SmackDown as two promotions while they were split. Different rosters, different tours, different management, different image, different TV deals. Same company behind them, of course. WWE is the promoter, not the promotion. Sort of like how Kraft Dinner and Kraft peanut butter are different food products. Not a huge deal to me, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:47, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

The problem with treating NXT as just another WWE show is it ignores that there is far more to the promotion (which is what Triple H, who oversees it as Exec VP of talent, has called it in interviews) than just the once-monthly TV tapings at Full Sail. They run house shows throughout Central Florida almost every weekend, in much the same fashion as FCW did. Unlike Raw and Smackdown during the brand split, which were only autonomous on TV screens, NXT has a much greater autonomy in its day-to-day operations. It is true that it is less autonomous than FCW (and DSW or OVW before that); indeed part of the change from FCW to NXT was in part to get better oversight over the developmental program. But there's more to NXT as a promotion than just the TV tapings.oknazevad (talk) 05:40, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Whoa, much has happened on this topic since the last time I came to this page. It's kinda hard for me to digest, but here are my thoughts: I strongly support the merging of "WWE NXT" and "History of WWE NXT" into a single article which talks about the five seasons of NXT.

Also, I'd like to point out that the "NXT Wrestling" website has ceased to exist and now points to the "http://www.wwe.com/shows/wwenxt" page. While previously "NXT Wrestling" was obviously separate, now the distinction is much more blurred. Even "NXT Live" events are shown on the WWE page at "http://www.wwe.com/events/all/wwenxt". It appears that the "WWE NXT" television show is more important than "NXT Wrestling" right now. Starship.paint (talk) 11:04, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Well this whole NXT-business is confusing. After further researching, it seems that you're right the name "NXT Wrestling" has been phased out. Right now it seems that WWE NXT is the name of (1) the developmental system, (2) the show that features the developmental system and (3) the old reality-competition show. Right now, (1) and (2) are the topics of NXT Wrestling while, (3) is the main topic of WWE NXT. However, now I'm thinking we should just rename them WWE NXT and WWE NXT (2010 TV series). What other solution is there? Feedback ^☎ 23:50, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Problem is that we don't know if NXT is in "transition" or has completed the change. Should we wait for a week or a month? We'd be losing valuable momentum, though. Starship.paint (talk) 13:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I am fine with waiting for consensus, but deciding to wait for WWE to clear up the situation would be a disservice to all the readers who want to know about NXT. I don't want them to be reading false information. Another possible solution would be dividing the topic into four articles: (1) FCW, (2) NXT TV Show V.1, (3) NXT TV Show V.2, and (4) the NXT developmental system. The last one can stay in construction for about a month, but we should keep the others up to date. What do you think? Feedback ^☎ 05:07, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I think there only needs to be three articles. 1) FCW 2) WWE NXT (Season 1-5) 3) <one article for the developmental territory> Starship.paint (talk) 01:40, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

HHH? Hulk? oknazevad? Any updated comments given that as it seems, NXT Wrestling is no more and it appears to be only WWE NXT now? Would you support the three article proposal in my above post, with only one article for the developmental territory combining NXT TV Show V2 and the NXT developmental system? Starship.paint (talk) 22:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I'm going to get more administrators involved because everyone did a controversial move without any sort of vote. We voted several times to keep the articles the way they are and suddenly you guys again changed them all, this time without some sort of a vote. We need this to be done properly because this is way too controversial to just move without vote.

Also why the heck do we have 2 "WWE NXT"s? It's the same show with its program direction changed half-way through. That's completely inaccurate for an encyclopedia and I have no idea where you guys get that from. I require sources on the fact they're 2 completely separate shows.

My point is this: The accuracy of these articles are now being challenged due to controversial moves done against Wikipedia's system by selected individuals here. Either change it back or vote. The guidelines are there for a reason. Honestly, this frustrates me that we FINALLY have a good system that we voted on and someone just comes in and ruins it all. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 20:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

"Selected individuals"... from the Pro Wrestling WikiProject? The move was proposed by FeedBack, and supported by HHH Pedrigree, InedibleHulk and oknazevad. That's four yes "votes" with zero opposition, and if I saw FeedBack's proposal in time, I would have supported it too, making it potentially five votes from June 25 to July 11, two weeks for six people to voice their opposition to overturn the "vote". Keep in note Srsrox, that the last time there was a vote, WWEJobber and Nomelck, who supported you, were actually later proven to be the same person using two accounts and both accounts have been banned. Starship.paint (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a mess seriously. We have two "WWE NXT" shows on Wikipedia. This is inaccurate! WWE NXT is the same show with a different direction. Where are your sources for suggesting it's two different shows entirely? No doubt, I will challenge this. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 20:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I just caught wind of this conversation. On Wikipedia, we do not decide consensus by votes. "Votes" don't matter, only arguments do. I made an argument above about how the system wasn't working. I suggested a solution on how to organize the articles and it was accepted without opposition by various members. Ever since I edited the archive code, old discussions are kept on WT:PW for 14 days after the last comment which was plenty of time for someone to oppose it. You are always welcome to suggest improvements and to challenge current consensus, but to belittle our consensus because we didn't "vote" is quite frankly inappropriate. Feedback ^☎ 20:54, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Srsrox what do you mean "we have two "WWE NXT" shows on Wikipedia"? Right now we have two articles, 1) WWE NXT - this article focuses on the five seasons / 2) NXT Wrestling - this on the developmental territory Starship.paint (talk) 09:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

We have WWE NXT and NXT Wrestling#WWE NXT. That is very confusing because of the how the WWE NXT's page is arranged. It's almost like the page is organized like the show lasted until 2012, but then there are random mentions of it going on as part of NXT Wrestling today. Another words, its organization is horrible. I actually like the look of the section on NXT Wrestling's page, but it has the feel that that section has all the info on it (especially when it has the logo/Infobox there and not on the main page). Common organization practices don't have a section that includes an Infobox unless it contains all info of the section. That's just confusing. Having both a large section on NXT Wrestling and a HUGE page on WWE NXT is just confusing. "History of WWE NXT" just made a lot more sense.

My suggestion is to keep the WWE NXT section on NXT Wrestling's page and rename WWE NXT page to History of WWE NXT.

One more thing Feedback ^☎, while it isn't technically wrong to move pages without discussing, it certainly is courteous, ESPECIALLY when there has been discussions about them already and are controversial. That's respecting other people's times and efforts. It would be much more courteous to request/discuss about the move first. I for one felt my opinion did not matter nor does it matter now. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 18:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

We discussed it. You're literally posting in the section where this discussion took place. Our consensus was unopposed for 2-3 weeks. It's been a month since the consensus was achieved and the moves were made. Your lack of participation in this consensus doesn't make it less valuable. Feedback ^☎ 21:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The proper way (as opposed to legal) would have been to discuss this topic in the article's talk pages OR at least note SOMETHING on the talk pages that the pages were in discussion of being moved. I've been on Wikipedia for the whole last month and had no way of knowing this was happening. A note on the talk pages would have made sense to let other editors know that the page was being discussed. This could have been handled better, I guess is my point. But I digress.

No way to know this was happening? I do agree the changes were implemented pretty hastily after gaining a consensus, but if you were watching the talk pages, you would have figured that out on your own. If you didn't bother to read the articles to find out about the changes, why would posting on the talk page make any difference? You're just making things up to stir up trouble. Feedback ^☎ 00:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Going back to the topic, please note what I said about the two WWE NXT sections. Tell me what you think. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 16:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

"History of WWE NXT" is misrepresentative. The article does not reflect the history of the brand like History of WWE. It's pretty much a season-by-season account of what occurred on the show. The standard would be for that information to be included in the TV series' main article or split up in "season" articles. I am not against renaming these articles "WWE NXT (2012 TV series)" and "WWE NXT (2010 TV series)". Or perhaps, WWE NXT and WWE NXT (2010-2012). But then again, I brought up the idea above, and others didn't seem to agree. I'm fine with the current consensus, but you can go ahead and try and change others' minds. Feedback ^☎ 00:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I want as few articles as possible -> one article for season 1-5, one article for developmental. If you want to rename the current WWE NXT article, I would prefer WWE NXT (2010-2012) over History of WWE NXT. Anyway as time passes on, it seems like NXT Wrestling has definitely been "consumed" by WWE. Anyone's thoughts? Starship.paint (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Feedback ^☎, I don't know where you're getting your sources from, but there isn't two "WWE NXT"s. It is only one show that had a change in direction. If we make it into two different shows, we are not being accurate at all. It a very simple solution to just merge the section with the article if we must have one article and have a small blurb on NXT Wrestling's page.

Second point, honestly, I hate the sheer length of WWE NXT's page (I don't think its notability equals to the long length of the article), but for some reason, people want it to be a rather large article. I think that the article needs to be summarized a lot better than it currently is. It's like it's WWE's/Wrestling's Wikia page length or something. Way too much detail... srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 19:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. The article is too long. I find the elimination tables rather silly, but it seems to be the standard for all reality competition series on Wikipedia. As for every version of WWE NXT all being one show, that's just wrong. WWE's newest developmental territory is called "WWE NXT" and is homonymous to their old reality-competition series, but they share no link. I think the main issue right now should be that NXT Wrestling is not named correctly. We need to form a consensus on how to rename both articles. Feedback ^☎ 19:42, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing "just wrong" about WWE NXT being the same show, because it was, even if you don't agree to it. It was a show the changed its direction, but never was considered by WWE a different show. Even WWE uploaded past "WWE NXT" episodes as part of the list of current WWE NXT shows, so it's clear it's considered the same show. Almost all websites will list WWE NXT starting in 2010 by way of simple Google search.

You DO Have a great point in the name "NXT Wrestling". After looking it up, it seems clear that "WWE NXT" is the promotion's name, Not "NXT Wrestling". I agree on that 100%.

So on that note, I also push to rename "NXT Wrestling" -> "WWE NXT (promotion)" and "WWE NXT" -> "WWE NXT (show)" or something along the lines of that. And yes, we NEED to shorten the length of the show's article. Just too much. We CAN make the table automatically collapse. I'll look into that if you guys are fine with that. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 13:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

All of this is rather confusing, but there is no way I could say that the "WWE NXT developmental territory" has anything to do with the "WWE NXT reality-competition series". They are nothing alike. The only reason they share the "NXT" name is because WWE needed to take into consideration their international contracts for "WWE NXT". They would have made it much easier for us if the developmental territory and the television show had different names. But they decided to confuse us further by strapping the NXT name on everything.

How about we rename NXT Wrestling to WWE NXT, and the current WWE NXT article to WWE NXT (TV series). We can have a hatnote at WWE NXT that directs the reader to the TV series. Feedback ^☎ 18:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

NXT Wrestling to WWE NXT seems fine. But, the current WWE NXT article to WWE NXT (TV series), I strongly disagree. (2010-2012) is fine, or (Season 1-5), but I think that (TV series) is not clear enough. Starship.paint (talk) 01:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Srsrox feels that the "WWE NXT" that WWE currently broadcasts is the same show as the old one. I disagree, but if that reflects popular opinion, then we should move all broadcast information of the show into WWE NXT (TV series). There would then be no confusion. In his support, TV.com treats it as the same TV show. Then again, I think the people at TV.com must be just as confused as we are. Feedback ^☎ 03:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

My problem is with the wording "TV series". I don't see how the current NXT is not a TV series, given that it is, after all, broadcasted internationally, just not in the US? [1] As I said, let's go with (2010-2012) or (Season 1-5). Starship.paint (talk) 09:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me be clear: When you say "same show as the old one", that is close to what I mean. I mean that it is the same uninterrupted TV series, yet a completely different direction half-way thru. To suggest it ended in 2012 would not be accurate. It's like I said, WWE has treated it as continual, so we should too. "(Season 1-5)", however, indicates a continual tv series, so I'd agree to that. But again, I think we need to prove that the promotion's name is "NXT Wrestling".

When it comes down to it guys, it is not important what are opinion is more than what the facts are. I love the name "NXT Wrestling", but is that was it's called? I don't mind treating it as two separate shows, but were they EVER listed as different shows? We can have opinions all day, but we need to back things up with proof and facts. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 13:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Just commenting, the show didn't end in 2012, but the seasonal aspect did. NXT Wrestling did exist until June 2013 when the website was shut down. It was the re-branded FCW from August 2012. But now, it looks like NXT Wrestling has merged into WWE, therefore there is no more official name, just the supposedly "WWE NXT" branch. Starship.paint (talk) 23:25, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

We don't have to treat them like two different shows. We can have one article for the developmental promotion at WWE NXT and another one for the show at WWE NXT (TV series). We can make the distinction of the two versions of the show on the latter article. I think this is the best "happy medium" we will be able to achieve. Feedback ^☎ 04:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I like your idea! Heck, I'll vote on it now. Support. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 20:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Nope. As I pointed out above, I strongly disagree with the wording "TV series", there might be confusion as the current aspect of NXT is also broadcasted internationally on television. Let's go with WWE NXT (Season 1-5). Starship.paint (talk) 23:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

You didn't seem to understand what I said at all. The latter article will include the latest and current TV season. It would be about every incarnation of the series, not just the original one. Feedback ^☎ 00:45, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I get what you mean now, but I'm just not 100% comfortable because the current incarnation really does not appear to be in a seasonal format. It's like Raw / SD, long-running with no end in sight. Starship.paint (talk) 01:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. That's why I propose the article should refer to the new version as a reboot. We'll then have a "Main article" tag linking the reader to the NXT territory more information on the wrestling promotion behind the show. Feedback ^☎ 22:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Reboot, fine I guess. Just note that, while NXT Wrestling was definitely a developmental territory... in June 2013, the NXT Wrestling website has been shut down and all NXT info was moved to WWE's main website while FCW/NXT President Steve Keirn left WWE, there's no evidence that NXT is a developmental territory any more. It certainly seems to be an WWE's internal developmental system, as opposed to FCW/NXT Wrestling which had a larger degree of separation from WWE. Starship.paint (talk) 07:38, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Eh hold on, I based the "Keirn left" statement on PWInsider's June 29 report on "Steve Keirn is not making the move to Winter Park, FL." A later report by PWInsider's main writer on July 12 said that he saw Keirn in the flesh training developmental talents during a visit to WWE's new performance center. Starship.paint (talk) 07:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Leave it to WWE to confuse all. *sigh* srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 19:48, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Feedback and srsrox, I will no longer oppose WWE NXT -> WWE NXT (television series) and NXT Wrestling -> WWE NXT Starship.paint (talk) 07:58, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like a consensus to me! I will move the page, but I just started Med School, so I will have about 1/278916 free time on my hands, so I will need others to focus on the rest of the implementation. Feedback ^☎ 23:41, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations, and good luck! InedibleHulk (talk) 23:46, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

I may be busy, but lemme know what I can do to help. :) srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 05:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

TNA Specials

Since January, TNA has only 4 PPVs, Genesis, Lockdown, Slammiversary and BFG. However, Destination X and Hardcore Justice have returned as Special editions of Impact Wrestling. User:Black60Dragon add them to the article List of TNA pay-per-view events due to the previous status of PPV. I don't think so, because now aren't PPVs and the article talks about PPVs, no TV specials. Second, he modified the Template:TNAPPV, including the 2013 editions of HJ and DX. Dragon, LM2000 and me talk about them in the talk page, but is hard. The other example, Template:WWEPPV, have some problems. It's a navbox about PPVs, so we include PPVs. For example, it doesn't include the King of the Ring event pre and post PPV, only 1993-2002. However, it includes the 2012 edition of Great American Bash, a Smackdown special. What do you think?--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 21:53, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

If its not shown of pay-per-view, it's by definition not a PPV, and therefore doesn't belong on either list or template.

That said, the significance of PPV is really in that they are special supercards, which predate PPV as a distribution paradigm. Strictly speaking, the first Wrestlemania was more intended as a closed circuit television broadcast; PPV was a new and still very experimental thing at the time, and WM1's limited availability on it was more a throw in. As such, there may be something to be said for mentioning them in a footnote like fashion. oknazevad (talk) 23:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

That may be true, from a fan perspective. But, from a business standpoint, a single PPV is far more significant than a single TV supercard (even if Andre the Giant returned and beat Cena). That said, all the TV combined made $57 million for WWE last year, compared to $46 million through PPV. Irrelevant to the truth that a free show can't be called a pay-per-view, of course. Just a "fun fact". InedibleHulk (talk) 09:31, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I think that we definitely should indicate that the events stopped being shown on PPV by listing 2012 as the last year. The WWEPPV lists The Great American Bash/The Bash lasting until 2009, despite linking the 2012 Smackdown show, so in the least I think we should continue to differentiate between the free TV and PPV shows this way. I'm more open as to whether or not we should actually link the events in the navbox though.

There's a question on the Destination X (2013) article, asking if these Impact specials (Hardcore Justice (2013) too probably) are worthy of their own articles, separate from the main Destination X (and Hardcore Justice) article(s). Much like the Great American Bash Smackdown, I think they deserve a section on the main articles but the current separate articles are unnecessary.LM2000 (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

2012 SmackDown Great American Bash, 2013 Destination X and Hardcore Justice are all the same, just a "special episode" of a weekly television show, not pay-per-view. They certainly do not deserve their own articles, and they can be mentioned in the main Destination X article for example. Where in Template:WWEPPV does the 2012 Bash get mentioned actually? I don't see it being listed. Starship.paint (talk) 07:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

If you're on a WWE Great American Bash article, you should see 2012 listed with 2004-2009 in the navbox, however the WWEPPV template itself says the PPV only lasted from 2004-2009.

I also just want to note that Black60Dragon, who was the only one fighting for this position over at TNAPPV and created both of the aforementioned articles, has been banned for a month.LM2000 (talk) 08:05, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

That's a relief. Though I'm not against the articles he created. Not really for them, but they are somewhat special events. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:33, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah okay, I'm looking at that article. I propose instead of 2012' we put 2012 SmackDown television episode to distinguish. By the way, what's the point of all the "2004 [edit source | editbeta] Main article: The Great American Bash (2004)" on that article? Starship.paint (talk) 08:15, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Starship, we should differentiate between actual PPVs and free TV, so the 2012 SmackDown television episode is essential. As far as the separate articles go, "special" free TV episodes almost never get their own articles, including the Smackdown GAB show which this is most comparable to. Is anybody totally opposed to redirecting? As to HHH's original question, I'm still not sure whether they should be linked in the navbox either way.LM2000 (talk) 01:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Made the changes to WWE The Great American Bash. Go ahead and redirect Destination X (2013) and Hardcore Justice (2013) Starship.paint (talk) 06:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay, both are now redirects. Keep an eye out though, although Black60Dragon is gone someone else may oppose. If that happens we'll have to have this same discussion on the individual articles.LM2000 (talk) 08:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I did the 2013 Impact Wrestling episode shtick. Starship.paint (talk) 09:00, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Nice. Now, should we include GAB 2012 in the navbox? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:20, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

As oknazevad pointed out, there are possible exceptions to include special supercards, such as the first Wrestlemania and the first Royal Rumble. I don't think these cases are like that, because these shows were just special episodes of Smackdown/Impact, rather than being their own show. I don't think it belongs on the template. It seems that the only person that did is now banned.LM2000 (talk) 22:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I've fixed The Big Event, as far as PPV goes (and half its weight in overcitation). Is this one of those exceptions? If so, feel free to unfix it. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:51, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

When they called it The Big Event they weren't kidding. But Slam explicitly says it was not a PPV, and unlike Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania it never became part of their PPV lineup. I'm not entirely if there is a template where it would fit but either way I don't think it works in the PPV template.LM2000 (talk) 00:28, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

TNA One Night Only. Canon?

Not long ago, I had a discussion/edit war about the 2013 TNA World Cup. I've no doubts about the points I argued it on, but it got me a thinking about an entirely different point, which may be more controversial.

From my understanding, these One Night Only shows are called that because they exist outside the "real" universe, like a Treehouse of Horror Simpsons episode (or whatever comic book example you'd prefer). So, if true, should any 2013 World Cup winners have this listed in their C&A, even after the show airs? Or will it be all just a dream? InedibleHulk (talk) 09:48, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a viewer of TNA, so I could be misinterpreting the point, but I'd say yes, they should still be. Even if the One Night Only shows aren't part of the story arcs or things like that, they still won the matches, and those victories would be recorded. For example, I expect you'd be able to find those accomplishments in Wrestlingdata.com. — Richard BB 12:00, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

They don't have it on Daniels' page. That may be only because it hasn't aired yet, though. They list his 2004 X Cup win, and 2004 and 2008 teammates. They also list the taping results. They do list James Storm's Jokers Wild tournament win (another One Night Only show). So I guess these count for them. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:24, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I think they should be included - canon isn't really the issue here. TNA's bios and title histories aren't a definitive source for things like this, since they will naturally overlook/amend history as they see fit (just like every other promotion). I'd compare the "One Night Only" accolades to something like the Kuwaiti Cup Tournament - something that happened, but wasn't greatly emphasised by the company since it was aimed at a very specific market rather than the mainstream audience. McPhail (talk) 20:23, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

There's a difference between "not emphasized" and "not canon", isn't there? These PPVs are marketed globally, but the promotion seems to treat them as, well, one night only. I don't think TNA should be the definitive source for real things (names, injuries, outside history, etc.), but why shouldn't they be the ultimate authority on titles and other story things? They're the creators. Not really arguing, just curious. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:55, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Storylines, etc, are open to interpretation, but the "One Night Only" events undeniably happened, whether or not TNA choose to acknowledge them. There have been cases in the past of promotions trying to "rewrite history", e.g. WWE omitting the pre-Shane Douglas ECW World Champions or the pre-Taka WWF Light Heavyweight Champions from its official histories, so the promotions can't necessarily be trusted to provide accurate title histories, etc. McPhail (talk) 23:44, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

True, but that's because pro wrestling, like any form of serialized fictional storytelling, is subject to retcons. oknazevad (talk) 20:37, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I was trying to remember that word. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:15, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

Another move request

"Warrior (wrestler)" to "Ultimate Warrior". McPhail (talk) 23:39, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

World Wrestling Entertainment, Inc.

I think we've all been duped. WWE supposedly changed their name, but not according to this. Feedback ^☎ 23:55, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

After an extensive search on their corporate website, WWE seems to avoid using "World Wrestling Entertainment" in most of the prose, but they include it at the top of the header in their press releases. http://corporate.wwe.com/documents/Q32012EarningsPressRelease11.01.12FINAL_000.pdf http://corporate.wwe.com/documents/WWESecondQuarterResults_002.pdf http://corporate.wwe.com/documents/4Q12PressReleaseFinal_000.pdf This is confusing. Did they actually drop the name or did they just start downplaying it? Feedback ^☎ 00:02, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

That first link 404s for me, but there's no dupe. Just confusing the trade name with the legal name. Legal name is World Wrestling Entertainment, Inc. Trade name is WWE. Here on Wikipedia, we use trade names (what they are doing business as) for companies. Microsoft, not Microsoft Corporation, for instance. Here in Ontario, all corporations are legally called "(six-digit number) Ontario Inc.".InedibleHulk (talk) 18:48, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

A standardised approach to naming tag team articles

I think it would be useful to give a bit of thought to how we name articles in Category:Professional wrestling teams and stables. There is a lot of variance in how disambiguation is applied to articles. For example, we have articles titled New Breed (ECW), New World Order (professional wrestling), MNM (wrestling) and NWA (wrestling stable). I'd suggest standardising these. I'd favour using (professional wrestling), but it'd be good to hear what people think.

There's also a bit of inconsistency in how we use definite articles in article titles - i.e. The Fabulous Freebirds versus Faces of Fear. I'm planning on standardising these so they all use "The" where appropriate. Again, any thoughts are welcome. McPhail (talk) 14:11, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much all of the articles already use (professional wrestling). "NWA (wrestling stable)" can't use it, since "NWA (professional wrestling)" should link to National Wrestling Alliance and "New Breed (ECW)" can't use it since there's also "New Breed (tag team)". MNM should absolutely be moved.Ribbon Salminen (talk) 14:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this input. On a related note, for consistency, should we be using "(professional wrestler)" rather than "(wrestler)", e.g. "Kane (professional wrestler)"? McPhail (talk) 15:42, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Definitely prefer (wrestler) and (wrestling). "Professional" is a long word, and likely won't ever be needed to distinguish from an amateur wrestler or topic with the same name. Also definitely support putting "The" on the proper nouns. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:25, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, there is a bit of a conflict between Pinfall, redirecting to Pin (professional wrestling), and Pin (wrestling), redirecting to Pin (amateur wrestling). But can't be much else, can there? InedibleHulk (talk) 16:50, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Also prefer just (wrestler) and (wrestling), pinfall can be made an expection. Starship.paint (talk) 02:18, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Any objection to The Three Faces of Fear? Numbers under 13 are generally spelled in English, and Google results for "3 faces of fear" (minus "wiki") don't match the quality of "three faces of fear" sources. And then there's this, clear as day. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:09, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't wait for objections, since that last source is so clear and official. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:20, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Wrestlers' intro

Hi. User:Vjmlhds and me have a little discussion. He says that the wrestlers's introduction only includes national Titles. For example, he delete the FIP and PWG World titles from Daniel Bryan's introduction, because "aren't national promotions and people never hear about that". He says that most Wrestling fans only know about WWE or national promotions, like ROH or TNA and NJPW an NOAH. I don't think so. We are an encyclopedia, so we are talking about wrestlers carrer, not about what people know. He says that we can say it in the body, but are notable titles of notable indy promotions and we have entire sections for the companies. I think that Cesaro had success in the indy circuit, why Can't we include in the intro that he won the PWG World title and CHIKARA, CZW and JCW tag team titles? Are notable titles in their career and the promotions are covered by notable media, like PWTorch and PWInsider. Of course, I'm talking about notable titles, not every single indy titles that somebody won. For example, "He was previously known for his work on the independent circuit under his former ring name Jon Moxley before signing with WWE." I think that's better "before signing with WWE, he was previously known for his work on the independent circuit under his former ring name Jon Moxley in promotions like FIP and CZW, where he won the CZW and FIP World titles. So... opinions? I saw the style guide, but I saw nothing about this.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

The question here seems again to be "what constitutes a 'notable Indy'?" Same issue we had with the former list of world titles. Personally, I'd be wary of relying on PWTorch and the like, to determine which Indies are important, as they have a habit of just posting results sent in to them by someone connected to the promotion. So having the results on those sites does nothing to make them inherently more prominent, just smarter at marketing. I'm also concerned with giving undue weight to minor promotions for a guy whose been in a major national promotion for years when it's work in the major promotion that makes the person most famous. Cesaro may have been Chikara tag champ, but outside of the specialist community, that's not what he's known for. oknazevad (talk) 14:35, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I understand as "notable" promotions that usually apears in wrestling media, like PWTorch and PWInsider. I don't read anywhere that only the national titles appear in the intro. The intro is a section where we put the key parts of their carrer, national and independent. Cesaro had a huge success as KOW and SMH, but say "he won the ROH World Tag team Championship"... I think that silly, delete them only because are indy titles, when it was key point in their indy career. It an introduction for their career, no national career. We are an encyclopedia and we are talking for everybody, smart wrestling fans, WWE fans and no wrestling fans. One (strange) example, Peter Jackson, he did huge movies and indy movies. Look the introduction, he did 1, best known (hobbit, TLOTR), 2, other notable films 3, indy movies. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Indy titles are fine with me, as long as the reign was something significant. Either a top title in the promotion, or a long reign or multiple reigns with a lesser title. I'm not fond of the way it often is now, where we list every WCW/WWE/TNA title, regardless. Castagnoli's PWG title is far more important than any of John Cena's tag titles, or Bradshaw's European. There's a general bias toward the big leagues, but those are just part of the story. If sources indicate a title reign was significant, that's all that matters. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:31, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

I'm also okay with Indy titles, granted we don't give them the undue weight Oknazevad has mentioned. In the case of Daniel Bryan Danielson I think the lede was fine the way it was mentioning some of the important indy titles he has won because of his prolific run on the indy circuit, which even WWE has brought up enough times to even make it WWE canon. Writing out every title every wrestler has ever won is a bit too much for ledes though, as HHH pointed out we don't write out the entire filmography of an actor or director, though we don't just list their most notable films either. We just have to find the right balance and the right perspective. I don't think Bryan Danielson's 160 day PWG reign and John Cena's unforgettable >1 day tag reigns with David Otunga/Miz are comparable but given Bryan's indy legacy I would say that that reign belongs in the lede. Does the tag reigns deserve a mention in Cena's lede? More debatable.20:37, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

We have to consider the titles in the context of the career, not the world in general. To The Ultimate Warrior, the NWE Heavyweight Championship is a blip, overshadowed by the WWF Championship. But in Romeo Roselli's case, it's a big deal. Likewise, Cena's tag reigns weren't nearly as significant as Billy Gunn's or either Dudley's.

Leads are meant to summarize, not exhaustively list things we repeat in the C&A. If someone new asked why Hulk Hogan is notable, in a nutshell, would anyone honestly bring up the tag reign on SmackDown with Edge? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:36, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Hulk I get your point about Cena and Hogan not needing to list their tag reigns, but how do we come up with an official guideline? This surely has to be on a case-by-case basis? Starship.paint (talk) 02:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it needs to be a case by case basis. Not all indy reigns are equal. For example there would be a big difference between hypothetical wrestler A who held an indy title for 5 days and wrestler B who had the longest reign in the promotion's history.--70.49.82.207 (talk) 04:29, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, case-by-case. Sometimes human editors are needed to make decisions. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:41, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Hulk and IP are both right. I'm not sure if we can create an official guideline based on how long a reign may be, how much exposure the reign must have had, the organizations, etc. We need to look at everything on a case by case basis. WP:LEAD says "The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects" but "important aspects" varies wrestler to wrestler. I think we can all agree that Bradshaw's 8 day European Championship run was not an "important aspect" of his life, where as that same title was the only single's title DDP held in WWF and was the last championship he ever won.

Hulk shared that video of Steve Austin reading Kevin Nash's lead and he was out of breath and needed a drink by the time he finished... I don't think there's anything wrong with Nash's lead, the guy had a long and prosperous career, but some of these leads go on forever and I feel like Austin did after I get through with them! I applaud User:Vjmlhds for removing some of the fat on a number of these articles. Daniel Bryan's lead in particular went on forever and it does look amazing compared to before. But I think the title's HHH mentioned belong in the lead too. We just don't need to go on and on about it.LM2000 (talk) 07:40, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The reason I did what I did was over the fear that editors would want to include every little 2-bit indy title that a guy has ever won in the lead. Listing Bryan and Cesaro's WWE/ROH titles in the lead is like giving the reader a taste before digging in to the meat of the article. It's like the appetizer before the entree. You don't give someone a large pizza as an app before the main meal of steak and potatoes. Now whatever the consensus winds up being, I'll abide by it, but I just wanted to let it be known where I was coming from. Vjmlhds (talk) 13:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

One other bit of business...while Cena's tag title runs have been fairly insignificant in and of themselves, they do deserve a quick mention in the lead as they contributed to Cena's overall WWE career of winning 20 total championships in the company (13 of them being World titles). Vjmlhds (talk) 13:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Anything wrong with just saying he won 20 titles (and 13 world)? If someone is interested in which titles those are, we have a clearly marked Championships and Accomplishments section. Going back your pizza, the ad for a twenty-topping pie would likely not list them all, but they'd still be there when a consumer starts eating/reading. I've fixed Cena and Nash's articles, but don't want to do too many until we're (more) certain. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:41, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

I understand it. I don't include every single title that Christopher Daniels has won. But if an indy title is relevant for the wrestler career, indy or national, I think that we should include it. Bryan had succes as indy circuit and national wrestler, but I don't see the logic to include only one part of his career in the intro. We can make very good intros, like Peter Jackson. He is best know for LOTR and The Hobbit, he also did King Kong and his first cult film is Bad Taste. We can talk about his carrer in WWE, ROH and other indy promotions (not every single promotion, use common sense), but delete the titles because "people don't know about PWG and FIP"...--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Seems like something needs to be changed here

Today I stumbled upon the WWE 2K page, and I do not think I am the only one just a little confused by the title. Considering 85% of the article is about WWF Smackdown/Smackdown vs. Raw, why is the article title the name of the most recent series, that has yet to even release a game. In my opinion either the title needs to reflect the overall WP:COMMONNAME of the history of games, or better split it into different articles one for the WWF Smackdown/Smackdown vs Raw games and another for the new 2K series. WWE '12 and WWE '13 could be thrown into either, but their really needs to be a distinction between the series'. WWE 2K might not be significant enough for its own article yet, but in that case there would be a section on it on the page still. I mean it is not like we have WWE Day of Reckoning and the old WrestleMania games thrown into the same article. If this is just the case of a new title and it should not be considered a new series, then the article title should still not be "WWE 2K" as that is generally not what the article is about. We should use a common name for the series not the name for an upcoming game that has yet to be released. STATic message me! 05:30, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

That makes a lot of sense. For twelve years the series had SmackDown in the title, during the last five of those years Raw was added. In the next two years it was simply WWE and only this year will 2K be used. Based on the fact that WWE 2K at this point is only being used for one of the fifteen games in the series I see no reason that WWE 2K should be the title of the Series page.--70.49.82.207 (talk) 18:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)