Talk:Northern Ireland

Kingdom of Ireland

I have a question: is Northern Ireland to be considered a realm like Scotland, or just a constituent nation like Wales? Because the coat of arms of the British Crown still brings the Irish's Harp; but, Ireland existed as a separate kingdom in 1921-1949 (when Éire became a republic), while Northern Ireland was part of United Kingdom. Thus, is Northern Ireland a realm, or not? Filippo83 (talk) 13:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is a remnant of the former (prior to 1801) Kingdom of Ireland. This can be seen in the jurisprudence of the United Kingdom, which is comprised of three legal jurisdictions with separate laws and legal traditions: England and Wales (formerly the Kingdom of England), Scotland (formerly the Kingdom of Scotland) and Northern Ireland (part of the former Kingdom of Ireland).

This is separate from the question of "nation". For example, the former realm of "England" (the former Kingdom of England) comprises what we would today call two nations: England and Wales. And Northern Ireland continues to form part of what we would today call the nation of Ireland (e.g. national sporting teams). However, that question of nation in NI is complex.

It is also different from the question of "realm". Whilst the various kingdoms that formed the UK kept their separate legal traditions, they formed "one United Kingdom" i.e. there is only one realm. So no, Northern Ireland is not a separate realm. Neither is England or Scotland today. All are today part of one realm: the United Kingdom. --RA (✍) 14:45, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Good answer. --HighKing (talk) 15:08, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I have not seen where Scotland has been described as a realm following its union with England and Wales. TFD (talk) 16:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you all for the answers: that is right what I wanted to know, whether Northern Ireland is the remnant of the old Kingdom of Ireland, or a new entity created in 1921/'22 (with the Free State becoming the only "heir" of the old realm). I beg your pardon for the unproper use of realm, but I was looking at how many "old realms" today form the United Kingdom: if England and Scotland only, or Ireland too. of course, they are not three separate crowns today. Filippo83 (talk) 13:43, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

@Filippo - As you use the Irish language name for the state named Ireland here on English Wiki, I will be consistent here and stick to Irish for the other territories mentioned. Editor RA generally got it right. Tuaisceart Éireann is not a realm. Neither is Alba. Technically I regard RA's answer as faulty in one respect. Tuaisceart Éireann was created in 1921. At that point in time the old Ríocht Éireann hadn't existed for over a century. Ríocht Éireann disappeared off the map when it amalgamated with and into An Ríocht Aontaithe. So obviously, Tuaisceart Éireann was simply carved out of a part of An Ríocht Aontaithe. It could not possibly have been carved out of Ríocht Éireann. Hope that clarifies. Best. Frenchmalawi (talk) 22:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you @Frenchmalawi. I think that my use of the word "realm" is misunderstanding: let's then say, I refer to British Coat of Arms. It should represent the three united crowns, England, Scotland, and Ireland; and it is slightly different from England to Scotland, which can be both defined as "realms" not by myself only (e.g. get a look at this link). I think that you all already answered to my questions, but to tell the truth all started from this point. Filippo83 (talk) 21:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Mistake in List of Cities

Under demographics there is a list of cities in Northern Ireland. Londonderry is incorrectly listed as Derry. Whatever your OPINION is, the official name of the city is Londonderry. This is not a matter in dispute, and your use of a nonstandard name may lead readers to believe that Wikipedia is biased. And we all know that could never be true, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.165.180 (talk) 21:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

See WP:DERRY and Derry/Londonderry name dispute. Wikipedia is not based on UK law but on reliable sources and by a wide margin they refer to it as Derry. Dmcq (talk) 23:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

So in other words Wikipedia is an opinion page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.165.180 (talk) 21:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

This talk page is about Northern Ireland. Talk:Derry is the appropriate page if you have something constructive to say. It currently has a section at the top where someone else has been complaining about the name. Dmcq (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Legality of and Opposition to Northern Ireland

Closing as unconstructive. To fork Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:FAQ/Forking. --RA (✍) 22:00, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
History is written by victors not vanquished . but if Wiki claims neutrality and abides by it should'nt it be essential to represent opposite factions . Or is Wiki going way of badly written British Fiction propagated as history This is a British masturbatory article at best where the legality of north Ireland goes unquestioned.Subjugation forced colonization or Irish is completely white-washed . There is not even a single section even on countries which dont recognize North Ireland. Here is a suggestion just like Chinese Wikipedia lets make a British Wikipedia . Where Popular British History is Passed off as fact and that will allow Fish-n-Chip folk to live in is a bubble . First the quality of featured articles and now this ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.179.93.29 (talk) 17:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC) If you disagree with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, then you need to take it up on the policy pages. TFD (talk) 17:40, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Also the only two countries that matter both recognise Northern Ireland, that is Ireland and the UK. Who cares if Myamar doesn't. Anyway since it's not a sovereign country in it's own right there is no international recognition needed, everyone recognises the UK. So what's the issue? Or is this more a case of people don't know what it looks like and can pass it in the street without knowing what they're looking at? Canterbury Tail talk 17:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC) This is what I dont understand, some passerby spouting uneducated shite, cliaming a whitewash on the article, yet due to the amount of eyes on this, it is probably one of the more neutral articles on here. Annoys me to the gut, political charged POV soapboxing, wikipedia isnt here to say who is feckin right or wrong its a feckin encyclodia and there is flippin no need for someone who hasnt experienced feck all to do with the subject matter talking shite to show their lack of understand of the subject matter or what wiki is about. Rant over. Murry1975 (talk) 19:05, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Oooh, I feel like sticking in something to see if I can get you do a longer and even more vehement rant ;-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmcq (talk • contribs) 23:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Ulster Scots

This must be a joke. Ulster Scots is not a language, it is at best a dialect with words of the english language spelt phonetically. It should not be there in the lede or infobox. In Scotland or England they do not include regional dialects in the lede ir infobox. What a joke, why don't we add Klingon whilst we are at it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.87.164 (talk) 20:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It's recognised as a language in the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages Catfish Jim and the soapdish 13:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Typical ignorance of minority languages. Ulster-Scots is simply the Ulster dialect of Scots - a language taught in Scottish primary schools, recognised by the European Charter and the Good Friday Agreement. It is similar to English simply because they both descend from Old-English (Anglo-Saxon), which is no surprise as Lothian was an Anglo-Saxon area, even after the Norman invasion of England, which left Lothian part of Scotland.

Just to show a comparison: Scots-Gaelic and Ulster-Gaelic are quite similar, compared to Irish Gaelic, but they all come from the same Old/Middle Irish origin. Does that mean Scots-Gaelic isn't a language? No it doesn't. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Only because it is incorrectly termed a minority language instead of a dialect by the United Kingdom. The only reason why the UK government even toy with the idea of it being a language was because hibernophobic unionists hated the idea of Irish being given an official status and sought a means to divert resources from the Irish language, which is an irrefutable fact. How many people actually speak the "Ulster Scots language"? In fact I remember in the news when Ulster Scots signs were put up in areas only then to be vandalised by unionists because they thought it was Irish. Just says everything.

According to the 2011 census, 8.08% of people in Northern Ireland have some ability with it, compared to 10.65% with some ability of Irish. I suggest you read the Scots language article for a proper insight into Ulster-Scots's parent language. Though as someone once said, the difference between a language and a dialect is the size of the army used to enforce one over the other. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

"Some ability", how deliberately vague. What are the actual numbers, how many people are actually fluent in it compared to Irish? Not many. There are far more people speaking Irish in Ireland, and in Northern Ireland alone the number is growing, the same cannot be said for Ulster Scots.

Wikipedia uses reliable sources and it is classed as a language of Northern Ireland in reliable sources, end of story. When you get your views published in a scholarly work and peer reviewed then editors will take more notice of them. Dmcq (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Here you go:

-Irish English: History and Present Day Forms, Cambridge University Press, 2007. pp.85–120,C. Macafee (2001)
-"Lowland Sources of Ulster Scots" in J.M. Kirk & D.P. Ó Baoill, Languages Links: The Languages of Scotland and Ireland, Cló Ollscoil na Banríona, Belfast, p121
-C.I. Macafee (ed.), A Concise Ulster Dictionary, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996), xxxvii
-http://www.scotslanguage.com/Ulster_Scots_in_the_Northern_Ireland_Census
-http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10702890212201#.Uhz8gz8biZM
-After the Peace: Loyalist Paramilitaries in Post-accord Northern Ireland,p. 94,by Carolyn Gallaher
-Plural Identities-singular Narratives: The Case of Northern Ireland, by Máiréad Nic Craith.

As you can see they are not my "original views", as you are trying to insinuate. Hence the above list of just a small portion of the "reliable sources" and "scholarly work and peer reviewed work" that you are looking for. Not even the Good Friday Agreement referred to it as a language (but it did with the Irish language). Are you and "other editors" going to take more notice of them now, or are you just going to ignore the facts? I know these facts are a bitter pill for certain people to swallow.109.76.192.115 (talk) 19:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

"This must be a joke. Ulster Scots is not a language" your opinion is not backed up by the sources given. Dmcq (talk) 22:10, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Then you clearly have not bothered your arse to read the sources. Away with you flegger.

"3. All participants recognise the importance of respect, understanding and tolerance in relation to linguistic diversity, including in Northern Ireland, the Irish language, Ulster-Scots and the languages of the various ethnic communities, all of which are part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland."

"linguistic diversity", whatever could that mean? Close and move on. Murry1975 (talk) 20:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Interesting wording! I'd never noticed that before: "Irish language" and "languages of the various ethnic communities", but not "Ulster Scots language". Now, if 109.76 is proposing that we take Ulster Scots out of the article altogether, then I totally disagree, but I do think that somebody needs to do the necessary research and clarify the status of the language/dialect in the article. For instance, in the "Ulster Scots" section the terms "language", "dialect" and "varieties of the Scots language" are all used. Worse, the sentence "Under the Good Friday Agreement, Irish and Ulster Scots (Ulster dialects of the Scots language)..." makes it sound as though Irish and Ulster Scots are both dialects of the Scots language! Neither is there any discussion of the distinction between Ulster Scots and Mid-Ulster English, which, according to that section, "shows influence from the lowland Scots language." That entire section could do with tightening up by somebody who knows their stuff. The infobox should not be changed, however. Ulster Scots is recognised by the GFA and the distinction between language and dialect is too fine to merit a discussion there. Scolaire (talk) 21:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Dialects -> dialect done. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's a start :-) Scolaire (talk) 21:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

No not altogether, but having the Ulster Scots "translations" in the infobox and lede as if it is of the same linguistic standard os Irish, which is an internationally recognised language, taught all over the world, with over a few million speakersm whilst "Ulster Scots" is not is absurd. People still have not given me the numbers of Ulster Scots speakers.109.76.192.115 (talk) 23:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

IP109. Scots is a recognised language, Ulster Scots is a dialect of this language. As for the translations in the infobox, WP:IMOS covers that. Now if you have something to discuss other than your open please add. BTW census figures show 8% with a Knowledge of Ulster-Scots with less than 1% being able to speak read nd write it (and that was easy to find). Murry1975 (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Why are you even bothering to respond to an editor who obviously has a closed mind in regards to this matter and won't be persuaded otherwise? They probably think that the most famous Irish word in the world craic is actually Irish in origin. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Because they know I am right, Ulster Scots is not a language of its own like French, Irish or English, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, it is a "dialect" of Scots, or as most rationale people would consider; the phonetic spelling of English in a Ballymena accent.

Flag

The Union Jack is a flag in Northern Ireland. Why don't we put the Union Jack at the top of the page considering it is the only flag that is officially used and recognized in Northern Ireland.--Mick man34 ♣ (talk) 13:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_flags_issue — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.192.115 (talk) 15:02, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

It is the United Kingdom flag. It isn't specific to Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 16:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)