Talk:Syrian civil war/Archive 30

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Community sanctions on Syrian civil war articles

I would like to note that from now on, Syrian civil war topic articles are coming under community restrictions based on 1RR rule, as a result of motion from July 2013 [1] and a consequent WP:AN discussion over imposing sanctions [2] on articles of the Syrian civil war topic.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Please add this information to article

• U.S. Tried to Derail UN Syria Probe; Dubiously Claimed Too Late for Evidence : “Despite the U.S. effort to portray the Syrian government policy as one of ‘delay,’ the formal request from the United Nations for access to the site did not go to the Syrian government until Angela Kane, UN High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, arrived in Damascus on Saturday, as Ban’s spokesman, Farhan Haq, conceded in a briefing in New York on Tuesday. Syrian Foreign Minister Moallem said in a press conference Tuesday that Syria had not been asked by the United Nations for access to the East Ghouta area until Kane presented it on Saturday. Syria agreed to provide access and to a ceasefire the following day."

• Syria asks UN to immediately investigate 3 new ‘chemical attacks’ by rebels : "Ambassador Bashar Jaafari said he had requested of UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon that the team of experts currently in Damascus investigating an alleged use of chemical weapons last week also investigate these other attacks. The attacks took place on August 22, 24 and 25 in Jobar, Sahnaya, and al-Bahariya, Jaafari told journalists Wednesday. The “militants” used toxic chemical gas against the Syrian army, the diplomat said. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.78.51.137 (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Neither are reliable sources. Sopher99 (talk) 16:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

How so? The Institute for Public Accuracy doesn't even have a dog in this fight and is a reputable non-profit organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.78.51.137 (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

For Sopher, no source is reliable unless it is pro-Islamist. He is nearly a one man propaganda team. He works this article tirelessly trying to get his discourse out as the main narrative on this conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.82.188.161 (talk) 20:45, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The question is: are you using your phone as a phone? hm Coltsfan (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Use the award winning RT as a reliable source. She covers all the things US mainstream media censors out. LOL Blade-of-the-South (talk) 05:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

RT is utterly unreliable. It's a propaganda outlet for the Kremlin. I have my complaints with the mainstream media in the U.S., but if you have a cursory understanding of the American press, you'll know it's not editorially controlled by the government the way virtually all Russian media is. (I'm sure President Obama occasionally wishes otherwise...) -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Move request

The subject of this article is a proper noun and should be moved to Syrian Civil War.[3] I can not imagine this as controversial, yet it is move protected so I posted the request here. Am I missing something here?—John Cline (talk) 23:53, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Ariha

Ariha under the government control by sep/03/2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syria-truth (talk • contribs) 03:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Claims the US planned false flag chemical attacks in Syria

Hi, according to reporter Yahya Ababneh, who talked with rebels in Ghouta, chemical weapons was given to them by Saudi's guys. But rebels didn't know how to use them - so weapons exploaded by mistake. [4] date=29 August 2013

Hi, I'm not a regular in this article but I encountered this information that may be of current relevance - I didn't find discussion of it in a search of the archives and I'll leave it to regulars to decide whether to include.
U.S. 'backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria and blame it on Assad's regime' (Daily Mail, Jan. 29 2013)
US 'backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria, blame it on Assad govt': Report (ANI, Jan 30, 2013)
Interesting view on deletion of the original Daily Mail article --Dailycare (talk) 18:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

You can't be serious... Is this a joke? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

It was covered by several reliable sources (I remember the story), so I don't see the "joke". But I think it would be wrong to use this now, because we need new sources that relate the two issues. Otherwise, it's original synthesis. Another interesting issue is the fact that Turkish authorities caught rebels in Turkey with certain chemicals not so long ago. FunkMonk (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Which two issues do you mean? If you mean the alleged false flag attack and the civil war, the article discusses "government forces and rebels" which IMO clearly places it in the context of the Syrian civil war. --Dailycare (talk) 18:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The issues is this alleged plan, and putting it in relation to the recent alleged chemical attach. FunkMonk (talk) 18:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

If one reads the Daily Mail article it becomes clear that this is a rather ridiculous piece of junk: an email, allegedly released by a Malaysian hacker, (as a British security company has their mails servers in Malaysia - that's totally logical), this email between two private contractors says that "We’ve got a new offer. It’s about Syria again. Qataris propose an attractive deal and swear that the idea is approved by Washington." Which Qataris? Who are they? and even if they swear that it is approved by Washington... who in Washington? What person there? Well, nobody knows, nobody has an idea - but the Daily Mail concludes "that the White House gave the green light to a chemical weapons attack in Syria". Really??? The White House? What person? Who? Ah, nobody has a clue and nobody knows... but that December 25th mail (Christmas Day!) is taken for truth, when in fact anyone could cook some BS like this up in his own free time. noclador (talk) 19:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah ok I see - but I wasn't thinking of placing it in the context of the recent alleged chemical attack, just including it in the article overall, the article does have material spanning a long timescale relating to the civil war and chemical weapons. --Dailycare (talk) 20:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is proof that this mail is a forgery: [5]. noclador (talk) 05:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

wow, thanks! --Dailycare (talk) 17:16, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I have seen the article. Reminds me of the Iraq WMD fraud that was used to justify an attack. I think in time US intel in his latest situation will likely be outed as fraud also. Lets wait and see. Certainly USA strikes now would be a direct violation of international law. http://rt.com/news/russia-us-syria-intelligence-236/

Since we are an encyclopedia and always have neutral POV (LOL) the others side story is of course key to impartiality and lack of bias in the article. So heres this. http://rt.com/news/syria-denies-us-intelligence-235/ Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Kosovo war, Bosnian war, Libyan civil war. And the two you'l love the most United_States_invasion_of_Panama , Russia–Georgia_war Sopher99 (talk) 03:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• If the information comes from RT, Press TV or SANA, and if it's against the opposition, then it's absolute truth. But if it comes from a western source, it's a lie, propaganda and bias. Right? Right? lol Coltsfan (talk) 15:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

RS that claim it's a false flag [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] USchick (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The Euronews and Thehindu are only reporting that assad claims its a false flag. The Indepdentent is not saying its a false flag, rather just collecting any doubts intel has gave all in one piece. Indypendent? regardless that source too, is only reporting on the syrian government's accusation Sopher99 (talk) 19:39, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources are reporting that this attack is being seriously considered as a false flag attack. USchick (talk) 20:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No. Reliable sources are reporting that this attack is being seriously considered by the Syrian government as a false flag attack. Sopher99 (talk) 20:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Since when do US politicians like Rand Paul and Pat Buchanan work for the Syrian government? USchick (talk) 22:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Strong Bias in Article

Just read the 'chemical' section. Its non POV, biased and not encyclopedic. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Instead of making vague accusations, how about we break down the paragraph of concern and see if it really is so scary.

On 21 August, Syrian activists reported that Assad regime forces struck Jobar, Zamalka, 'Ain Tirma, and Hazzah in the Eastern Ghouta region with chemical weapons. At least 635 people were killed in a nerve gas attack. Unverified videos uploaded showed the victims, many of who were convulsing, as well as several dozen bodies lined up. <the death toll definitely needs to be updated, other than that we simply give a who, what, where and when. The videos were also a highlight in the media that day.>

Experts in chemical weapons stated that the footage showed signs that a nerve agent may have been used. <backed up by a BBC source, experts - who exist - saw videos - which exist - and concluded it was most likely nerve agents - which exist.>

Early sources reported a figure of 213 in a poisonous gas attack. The SNC chief said that the overall death toll stood at an estimated 1300, as only a fraction of the bodies could be collected and many died within their own homes. <death tolls - all deadly attacks have death tolls.>

The Syrian government initially prevented United Nations investigators from reaching the sites of the attacks, despite their accommodations being only a few kilometers away. <backed up by HRW and Reuters, Syrian government - initially - blocked access. Ghouta is only a few kilometers from where the UN inspectors were staying. Unless using the metric system instead of the imperial system counts as POV, I see nothing wrong here.>

On 25 August, the Syrian government agreed to allow UN investigators to visit the site of the attacks.<The syrian government allows them in>

The UN inspectors arrived to the site of the attacks, despite being fired upon by an unknown party while underway. UN officials say that inspectors have gathered "valuable" evidence. < no blame attributed to the attack on the vehicle, UN statement says valuable evidence collected. Not seeing a problem unless you really want to strech it by saying "valuable" is an inappropriate point of view>

On 26 August the inspectors reached some sites, but after an hour and a half, were ordered by the Syrian government to return due to 'safety concerns', and the inspectors could not reach the six main sites. <the events that took place on 26 August, Guardian source>

<The paragraph is fine, just needs to be updated> Sopher99 (talk) 03:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The section looks fine to me. What's the problem? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Even I think it's fine and I am strongly against Islamist propaganda. However, we need to change the combatants box so that the Mujahideen section is changed to "foreign militants." Don't give one side the more honourable title "Mujahideen" and others the title "foreign militants." Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.17.180 (talk) 15:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No - because the foreign militants under the Syrian government are exclusively foreign, where as for the mujahideen only a small fraction are foreign. Sopher99 (talk) 17:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

What do you base the last assessment on? FunkMonk (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

yes Sopher ref that widely. You cant. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Im surprised no ones seen it. What is bias? When one side is represented and the other not, right. Its called balance when its done right. There are no relevant sections stating Syria's legit government position on various accusations, (refs available on RT). No Russian position re Rebels did it, (refs available on RT). No Russian position re lack of evidence, real evidence not trial by media (refs available on RT). And on and on. To get your head around the need for balance you may need to understand three things. 1/ evidence of sarin alone is not guilt for Syria. 2/ The rebels could easily have been supplied with sarin by their mid east backers. 3/ Who gains from this attack? Not Assad. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

That's because Sopher thinks only Western (and Gulf) media is neutral. FunkMonk (talk) 02:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes well its a common problem in many. IMHO Al Jazerra is dodgy, and RT is fine. The NYT is biased IMO, but smooth about it. Thats why a wide range of views is good. Syria is getting biased media coverage in the west. Why? Political reasons Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

But in the east, it's all fine and dandy! The media coverage in Russia is not bias at all, right? And how can RT be neutral if they are openly funded by the russian government? It's like I have said before! To you guys it's like "If the information comes from RT, Press TV or SANA, and if it's against the opposition, then it's absolute truth. But if it comes from a western source, it's a lie, propaganda and bias." C'om! Coltsfan (talk) 10:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

way too simplistic Coltsfan. BALANCE is required. RT and the like are required for balance. I know there are agendas all round but think on this. If that was a false flag the backers of those who ordered it are evil. If those are the backers of the rebels, the Wests people, us, have a real problem. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I've often pointed to the comically pronounced pro-rebel bias on this article. And the fact that Sopher99's efforts (i.e. numerous edit wars) are focused on keeping it as much in-line with islamist rebel propaganda as possible. Setting aside the fact that much of the world media sources not friendly to the Sunni insurgency are disregarded - even western media are being ignored when they have something to say that might reflect badly on the rebels. Just yesterday I heard on CNN that the insurgency is composed of separate movements, the largest of which is the Al-Nusra Front. Does the article reflect that? Or is it a poster for fairy-tale propaganda from the "Syrian National Coalition".. -- Director (talk) 20:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"This article is pro rebels"! "Western media is bias"! "This article is propaganda"... Same old, same old. The pro Assad guys thinks this article is propaganda. The pro opposition guys thinks this article is also propaganda. Give me a break. Coltsfan (talk) 21:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't give a damn about Assad or (if you'll pardon) Syria in general. I care about our project and its reputation. If you think people voicing concerns of bias "cancel each other out" I hope you'll think again. -- Director (talk) 23:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't give a damn about both sides either. I look at this article and it's too big! There is a lot of crap here. But I don't think it's bias. And I don't think that it shows a western view of the conflict. And regarding the sources, RT is just as bad as Fox News, for instance. Coltsfan (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing that should be in there for balance. 'Russia releases key findings on chemical attack near Aleppo indicating similarity with rebel-made weapons'. http://rt.com/news/chemical-aleppo-findings-russia-417/.

Heres a teaser from it. 'the shell used in the incident “does not belong to the standard ammunition of the Syrian army and was crudely according to type and parameters of the rocket-propelled unguided missiles manufactured in the north of Syria by the so-called Bashair al-Nasr brigade”;

Oh there will be war, certain powers want it bad, but Im not going to be a sap and not see the bias and wrongness beforehand which is also evident in this article. I live in the West, Im white, have 2 degrees, so what? Well when I see bias in Wikipedia thats all Im saying. I also have views on how democracy has been subverted, I like Snowdens stand. Again so what. Bias is bias and its dangerous. Its feeding an illegal US strike. It will lead to loss of life in Syria. Why should an encyclopedia support it? Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"Bias is Bias and its dangerous. its feeding an illegal US strike" I think this sums up the hypocrisy of the talking points around here. Sopher99 (talk) 00:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Not clear what you mean, explain in detail. As for your quote in italics: I dont know where you live but here in Australia on commercial and state sponsored news its trial by media and it is feeding public opinion toward bias. Iraq WMD are forgotton by some. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 01:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Sopher is not aware that a US strike would indeed be illegal in terms of international law. Such things are generally not given much attention, though. Many past and present US foreign entanglements are more-or-less illegal in that sense, so people got used to it decades ago. Sopher is basically saying that your (rather naïve) reference to international law indicates bias. To be sure, both Iraq and now Syria are essentially cases of naked aggression, legally speaking, and the media in the west are generally supportive thereof, no question. -- Director (talk) 02:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Therein lies the rub. That is why the USA never will sign up for the world court. Their leaders would be tried, no doubt about that. I believe many see where this will end, by and by. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 03:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Russia Today is not a reliable source for any claim that supports the Kremlin's view.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

But US media is a reliable source for claims that supports the US government's view? You really don't see the double standards here? Same with Gulf Arab media. FunkMonk (talk) 06:15, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The Funky Monks right. Its also what I said above. I have to say though that the push and bustle IMHO is from the West. An event happened. Children died. But there is something very wrong with the media coverage. Im suspicious of such things post 9/11, post Iraq, Afghanistan. I would not be surprised if it comes out one day the attack came from non Assad sources. The Al Q affiliated rebels in fact. There is enough coverage for this doubt to be included in the article. I'm suspicious also of some editors here too, because its really obviously biased. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 07:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

FT, you clearly misunderstand WP:NOTFORUM. Kindly refrain from messing with posts you personally disagree with and/or are annoyed by. Also please try to keep your language civil ("rambling"). -- Director (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree, FT uses WP:NOTFORUM incorrectly. The result of this is to shut down for some an uncomfortable, but legitimate debate. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:33, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• This is a discussion about content, so of course it should not be hidden. This[11] section was pure unsourced speculation, yet I didn't see Future whining about that. FunkMonk (talk) 04:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear, that [12] is a clanger. Seriously though we need some neutral work in here like the banner at the top of this page urges Blade-of-the-South (talk) 08:17, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Sources

Most sources describe the conflict as gradually having turned sectarian. Whats wrong with mentioning that? Futuretrillionaire removed that. Pass a Method talk 03:25, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• Re-add it. It is basically how this war is defined, whether Future likes it or not. FunkMonk (talk) 04:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

This article is 1RR so i cant re-add it yet. Pass a Method talk 04:35, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Reader feedback: This page needs a picture th...

93.150.144.50 posted this comment on 28 June 2013 (view all feedback).

This page needs a picture that shows all of the relations between the factions that are involved

(like for example, there can be a green line between the "syrian government" and "Hezbollah" to show that they're allies).

It would also be better to see an example of the art produced by the war.

Thanks.

Any thoughts?

I think neither of these ideas belong on this page. A graphic for the relations of the Syrian government during the war, should be under "Foreign involvement in the Syrian civil war" or " International reactions to the Syrian civil war", this page is crowded and overly lengthy already. Also, Wikipedia is not an art gallery. At most there should be one representative piece of art, if it becomes famous, noteworthy or significant, or affects the course of the war, otherwise no, I do not believe it belongs here. Ottawakismet (talk) 13:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Al-Nusra Front or Jabhat al-Nusra?

The article should be consistent in which version of the group's name to use. Which one do we use? Persnonally, I prefer Al-Nusra Front because that's the name of the Wikipedia article for it.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:21, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Why don't we call it by its english name - we do so for the "national defense force" and Islamic state in Iraq and Syria. Sopher99 (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

English language media is using Al-Nusra Front. USchick (talk) 17:29, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree with USchick Blade-of-the-South (talk) 01:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Undue weight to Israel content in Interntaional Reaction/Humanitarian Aid section

First and foremost, this is not an attack on Israel or POV pushing. I just noticed in reading through this setcion that the first paragraph which details almost all other humanitarian aid, involving thousands, is a small and more concise read than the seemingly overinflated paragraph that follows. The second paragraph seems to have a much greater level of detail on the Israeli effort than is warranted by the scope of the article. It's increidbly laudable that Israel is providing aid, I don't mean to take anything away from them or to downplay their effort. I just think we go into too much detail in comparison to the previous paragrah. If we can sum up all US and other sources of aid, which affect thousands or millions, in one paragraph, do we really need to spend a whole paragraph talking about how Israel provided aid to 100? It seems undue weight. Israel's effort is certianly not negligible, but it's certainly not of the same scope as everything else put together. I would recommend shortening that paragraph to one sentence, something like "Israel has provided medical aid to 100 people through special entry permits for critically wounded Syrians." Everything else is pretty much extraneous detail. If equal detail was put into USAID efforts, it would be a whole article. Much love for Israel, but let's keep it short and sweet?204.65.34.29 (talk) 22:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. Israel probably won't even show up on the first ten pages of google when you look up "Syria humanitarian aid" on google. Sopher99 (talk) 01:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and edit it; if reverted, please bring to Talk.204.65.34.204 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Just to notify you - i created Humanitarian aid during the Syrian civil war, so the info could be transferred there.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Sectarianism in the lede

I don't want to go into edit war again with Sopher "Blame Assad!" 99, so I'm just pointing this out. Right in the lede we have a statement: "The conflict gradually took a more sectarian nature between Sunnis and Shia Alawites when the Syrian government began establishing Alawite militias to substitute defected soldiers."

This, of course, is just a part of the truth. Influx of Sunni extremists, funding of Sunni groups by Gulf states, spillover of sectarian conflict in Iraq and calling for jihad against Shi'a are the other aspects, not mentioned there.

Can someone edit that in some neutral way? Thanks. --Emesik (talk) 23:54, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Your quite correct Emesik that lede is childish in its understatement of the facts. The problem is its such a complicated international geo political mess in Syria, Wiki editors would be flat out keeping up and even more flat out doing non POV balanced and neutral with reliable refs. Thats why talk pages exist, to help this process. Well thats the idea, lol. I didnt see your edit war, but have been in two that rivaled the conflict in Syria. So Im not surprised. Its not helpful having people come in and shut off threads or post replies that are reactions, but thats usually part of the process, then it settles down. Just keep plugging away. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 01:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any source\info in the article(which the lead reflects) showing that all the things you mentioned resulted in the sectarian nature of the conflict and not the other way around? --PLNR (talk) 13:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Let's start with the two sources already cited there ([13], [14])

First of all, neither of them supports the statement that "Syrian government began establishing Alawite militias to substitute defected soldiers". Yes, they say about militias, yet there is no single use of word "defected".

Second, they do not point out the establishment of Alawite militias as the starting point of sectarian conflict. The root is much deeper, in decades of Assad's minority rule and moving Sunnis away from power.

Third, one of the sources says: "Starting as an uprising that transcended sect, the Syrian conflict has taken on an increasingly sectarian hue thanks to the Sunni Gulf states’ support for the rebels and to the backing of Bashar Assad’s regime by Iran’s Shia leadership and—more relevant to Lebanon—by Hizbullah." — which is pretty consistent with the version I had introduced before Sopher99 reverted it.

Fourth, the UN source cited here says it straight out: “The risk of the Syrian conflict devolving from peaceful protests seeking political reform to a confrontation between ethnic and religious groups has been ever present,” the Commission stated. “As battles between Government forces and anti-Government armed groups approach the end of their second year, the conflict has become overtly sectarian in nature.”

What I'm saying here is that the shift to sectarian conflict was gradual and there is no single point in time to name as a border between non-sectarian and sectarian war.--Emesik (talk) 16:26, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Peace Conference

I read and hear things about a projected peace conference in Geneva. Is anyone able to add a section on initiatives of that kind? --Corbertholt (talk) 08:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

does it really matter.it wont achieve anything.70.28.7.229 (talk) 09:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

To mr 70.28.7.229: we are an encyclopedia: we are describing the world. That's all we want to achieve. Now, there is talk of some peace conference; who knows more about it? --Corbertholt (talk) 09:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

It is Geneva II Middle East peace conference. Indeed we may add "peace attempts" section to describe it aling with previous proposals and the peace missions of Kofi Annan and Lakhdar Brahimi.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:58, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

article statement

However, experts say that hard-line Islamists make up only 8,000 of the 140,000-strong rebel force.

This statement is highly misleading.If not simply wrong.

First of all, the source article, which is the basis for this statement, says that 140,000 opposition fighters are FSA fighters.and that 8000 are islamists.

but the FSA itself is composed of Islamists (3rd paragraph).

second of all, just because one is not a hardline islamist, does not mean one is secular.one could believe in some form of Islamic democracy.

In short, it is a very misleading statement, and the extent to which the opposition is secular is at best unclear.99.254.53.216 (talk) 22:54, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree, sloppy work originally. Try this for search ideas. One US intelligence estimate found as many as a quarter of the 300 different rebel groups in Syria may be fighting under the banner of al-Qaeda, according toRep. Mike Rogers (R-MI), chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. http://news.antiwar.com/2012/09/08/jihadists-striving-for-autocratic-theocracy-make-up-syrian-rebels/ Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:23, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Its not misleading. Hardline islamists are extremists. Only 8k are extremist.

Anti-war.com? Really? the pov is even in the name of this one. Sopher99 (talk) 00:03, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Sopher99 really. Did anyone at all suggest Anti-war.com as a reference? No. Instead I said this, 'Try this for search ideas'..i.e. this info, 'Mike Rogers (R-MI), chairman of the House Intelligence Committee'. Sopher can you try to follow the lines of reasoning because when you dont its disruptive. Thankyou. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 00:53, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I think a statement like that is based on very little, "Experts" doesnt mean any kind of authentication imho. Is this conclustion based on a survey of attitudes of rebel fighters? LOL Neither the Syrian government nor the rebels have a definite list of who is fighting and who isnt. Ottawakismet (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Ottawakismet I think you are correct no one knows how strong in number the hardline Islamists are. Its messy and the article could show that or say that rather than put up figures that are flawed Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:35, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I am willing to bet it's a majority.99.254.53.216 (talk) 00:35, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

• What exactly does the term "Hardline islamist" mean and how is it defined? Jahbat al Nusra is presumably counted, so that is 5000+, but what about the Syrian Islamic Front and the SILF, there are tens of thousands in these umbrella groups, are they hardline Islamists or just ordinary garden variety Islamists. A more useful terminology would be Islamist > Salafist > Jihadist (SILF > SIF > Jahbat al-Nusra & ISIS) Gazkthul (talk) 03:52, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

An islamist is someone who wishes to impose islam on society.This is not a moderate view.Having said that you are right, this is probably the least extreme view among the rebels.Really, I think the answer is obvious, and we are just arguing semantics99.254.53.216 (talk) 05:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

• Lol at Sopher always clinging to the most ridiculous of FSA Twitter-propaganda as if it was gospel. Here's a recent source on the actual numbers: http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/09/09/syrias_insurgency_beyond_good_guys_and_bad_guys#.Ui4-DCXmSmc.facebook FunkMonk (talk) 17:28, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

unfortunately this article does nothing except further muddy the waters.read the 5th paragraph, where it claims islamist jihadists are not extremists.so then what exactly qualifies as an extremist?.99.254.53.216 (talk) 02:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Lede: Designation of Jabhat al-Nusra as terrorist group by US

Do we really need to have that info in the lede? I'd say it's WP:UNDUE. US is just another country, not even involved directly in the conflict. --Emesik (talk) 15:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Why Hezbollah is called Foreign Militants in InfoBox but Mujahideen aren't called Foreign Militants?

Why Hezbollah is called Foreign Militants in InfoBox but Mujahideen aren't called Foreign Militants?? even Anti-Assad new channel CNN reported that, Mujahideen are not Syrians they are Jihadist from different countries?? SpidErxD (talk) 23:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Because Hezbollah and such are exclusively foreign. SIF and Nusra simply contain foreigners, but most aren't. Sopher99 (talk) 23:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Most of the Jihadist who are supporting FSA aren't Syrians but you are hiding them. This article is biased because all the news is cited from UK,US,Qatar,Israel news channels who are against Syrian Regime. I didn't see any citation of Russia,Iran,China news channels. SpidErxD (talk) 00:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. USchick (talk) 00:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

For Russia it would have to be a reliable source like Interfax or Moscow times. As for Iran and China, I do not know of any independent/free reliable media there. Sopher99 (talk) 00:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll tell you guys what - I'l replace all Al jazeera, Al arabiya, and if possible - all US media sources. Sopher99 (talk) 00:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with SpidErxD . I would also like to ask you User:Sopher99 if you have any interest concerns, paid or unpaid that make you a non neutral editor. Are you too involved to be impartial? I ask this based on your edit history alone. And User:Sopher99 other people will be putting in other refs not from UK,US,Qatar,Israel. You need to understand that. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 01:12, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

it's not the sources that make this article biased, but the way information is presented. For example, in the lede of an article about a Civil war, what could possibly be a good reason to include a random opinion from a government halfway around the world? "The United States has designated the pro-Assad Shabiha militia and the al-Nusra Front as terrorist groups with links to al Qaeda in Iraq" How is this relevant in a civil war? USchick (talk) 01:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Ask blade of south that. He put Al nusra and its alqaeda links in that paragraph. I added the shabiha part because it wouldn't be fair unless we list both organizations the US deems terrorists. If blade of south removes the Al nusra and alqaeda, I will remove the shabiha thing. That way both of us self reverts instead of reverting each-other. Sopher99 (talk) 01:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

That sounds like a good start. USchick (talk) 01:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

OK agreed lets remove it, I'll do it now. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

White House says it has no “irrefutable” evidence that Syrian President Bashar Assad was behind the August gas attack

Snatch. 'The Obama administration has also referred to its satellite and signals intelligence, as well as military communications, as proof that the regime was preparing to use poisonous gas just days before the alleged attack took place. Yet the administration has refused to let the public see the evidence allegedly connecting Assad to the crime - even though ample amounts of satellite imagery was released earlier by the US in order to demonstrate the consequences of the attacks'. http://rt.com/usa/white-house-syria-evidence-586/ Blade-of-the-South (talk) 06:28, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Russia Today is not a reliable source listed by wikipedia, as it is operated by the russian government. Jacob102699 (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

RT (TV network) is an Autonomous non-profit organization (ANO) [15] governed by the Federal Agency on Press and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation. Autonomous is independent. Where is it listed on Wikipedia as unreliable? USchick (talk) 22:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Of course RT is reliable. News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. The NYT has disputed reliability when its opinions are used as facts, (see Edward Snowdon talk archives). Everything is disputed these days but facts are facts. This from Wikipedias protocols allows use of RT for facts. 'News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. "News reporting" from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors'). I have to say that genuine query of sources is healthy. Political motives driving keeping out reliable sources in here are not. Its puerile and repugnant. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:27, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Still waiting on an answer about what makes RT (TV network) unreliable. User:Jacob102699 would you like to clarify? Or anyone else? USchick (talk) 04:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Does it ever critisize the Kremlin.70.28.7.229 (talk) 10:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/arts/television/18heym.html?_r=0

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/controversial-propaganda-using-stalin-to-boost-russia-abroad-a-518259.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/from-russia-with-news-1869324.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/18/russia-today-propaganda-ad-blitz

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/putin-fights-war-of-images-and-propaganda-with-russia-today-channel-a-916162.html

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/07/russia_today_goes_mad

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/russian-backed-propaganda-networks-claim-obama-is-a-cia-agent/

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/29/7_clips_larry_king_should_have_watched_before_joining_russia_today

Sopher99 (talk) 11:32, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

See WP:NEWSORG. Also see RT (TV network) for information on RT's alleged bias and propaganda. Specifically, one thing that caught my eye was the calling the Boston Marathon bombings a gov conspiracy. If that is not propaganda idk what is. On WP:Newsources/Europe RT is not listed as one of the several reliable sources based out of Russia. Lastly, I recall RT being decided not reliable several times on this talk page in the last 2 and a half years. Jacob102699 (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Re 'Lastly, I recall RT being decided not reliable several times on this talk page in the last 2 and a half years' Is that a joke, like that counts. Lol. A few of you get together and pow. Srsly.

John Feffer, codirector of Foreign Policy in Focus says he appears on RT as well as the U.S.-funded Voice of America and Radio Free Asia, commenting "You’re going to find blind spots in the coverage for any news organization."[97] American journalist Glenn Greenwald listed the corporate and government owners of prominent western media like NBC, BBC, Voice of America, Wall Street Journal, Fox News, Politico and The Washington Post and asked why it was "an intrinsic violation of journalistic integrity to work for a media outlet owned by the Russian government." He also wrote that the real cause of American media hostility toward RT is that "the reporting it does reflects poorly on the U.S. Government, the ultimate sin in the eyes of our 'adversarial' press corps."[52] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_%28TV_network%29#Objectivity_and_bias Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

greenwald is a left wing hack.108.175.224.13 (talk) 13:18, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

POV unless ref shown. Lol srsly agent do better Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

1949 coup and context of modern Syrian history

I see that earlier talk page consensus favored including a brief description of the 1949 CIA-backed coup in the background section of this article. I can't find a record in the talk archives of a later consensus to remove the material, and so I've restored it, in abridged form. Two sentences, giving background on the early struggles between democracy and dictatorship in Syria, are certainly useful to readers hoping to place the civil war in context. -Darouet (talk) 16:50, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

ali habub mahmmud

he has no defect,they were nopthing more but rebel propaganda!!!!!deleted it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.151.241.195 (talk) 11:48, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Syrian civil war → Syrian Arab Spring war – Protesters do not generally turn into an army without being one to begin with. There is no reason to suppose the demonstrators were not invaders, going from one country to the next to fight, like Alexander or like crusaders. The demonstrators could conceivably be the 250,000 lift in Iraq by U.S. President George H.W. Bush. Thus “civil war” is probably not what is going on there. 69.3.115.148 (talk) 19:20, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

• IP user who know how to make move request... do we need to take this request to move a 2 years old article with no redirect seriously? --PLNR (talk) 19:33, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
• Snowball close; enough said. noclador (talk) 19:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes its a dirty corrupt war and no name I suspect will do it justice. Of course its way beyound a civil war. Its a geopolitical power play. I like 'The Syrian Conflict' for a name, as it leaves room for the host of back room, shadowy nasty interfering players as well. But I think we are stuck with this name because of the pernicious nomenclature in mainstream media and those who oppose any changes based on common sense. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 22:39, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I believe that it actually is a civil war. I mean the definition of civil war is a war in which a country is fighting itself. Kydon Shadow (talk) 17:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The only media channel that doesn't call this conflict a civil war is SANA and Press TV. All the others, including RT, calls it a civil war. The UN calls it like this as well, the Red Cross, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current name. Coltsfan (talk) 00:28, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Wikipedia's policy on article titles, we should use the most common name used by most reliable sources and mainstream media. Zzyzx11 (talk) 00:54, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose – the given rationale sounds more like a POV than a reason to move an article. Dicklyon (talk) 03:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
• Abstain Blade-of-the-South (talk) 05:39, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - per WP:UCN. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:57, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. --Norden1990 (talk) 12:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

mujahideen

Is this article implying the rebel groups under mujahideen are jihadist or islamist, while the rest are not.70.28.7.229 (talk) 04:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Mujahideen Sopher99 (talk) 11:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Not really. It refers to the number of foreign islamists. There are other "indigenous" islamist groups mentioned in the infobox. However, it is good that you started as a topic, because the mujahideen number is slightly troublesome. The source on which the number of 10,000 is based (an article from the Times whose full access is restricted) mentions that "as many as 10,000 foreigners fighting to overthrow President Assad". However, because it is restricted it is unclear to what extent the number of 10,000 overlaps with the estimates for other groups in the infobox (e.g. al-Nusra). I hope somebody who does have access to the full article can answer if these matters are resolved in the rest of the article. Otherwise I will put an asterix at the mujahideen estimate with the remark "Number possibly overlaps with estimates for other groups." --Tomvasseur (talk) 10:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Putins message for Americans re Syria

This is a key statement, and should it be ignored the UN's role is over, compromised. Snatch: 'It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America’s long-term interest? I doubt it. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us.”'.

continuing. 'My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal'. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-11/vladimir-putin-addresses-america-nyt-op-ed-calls-caution-syria. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 01:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It probably makes sense to link the actual op ed rather than a repost by Tyler Durden. What specific improvements to this article do you propose? VQuakr (talk) 03:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Linking sounds reasonable. Let me think on what the improvements are. Heres a NYTs link. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1& Blade-of-the-South (talk) 00:14, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Words are wind. Coltsfan (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

So Coltsfan 'words are wind!! heres me thinking words were sound waves with resonance in frequencies our civilisation uses for communication. Have you found an effective way to communicate without words which means you are on a vow of silence I presume, perhaps using note paper and the PC exclusively. Do tell. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 00:14, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Words are wind unless you have nuclear weapons to back them up. The US is moving undocumented nuclear warheads, and when they "accidentally" go off in Syria, I wonder who will get blamed, Iran or Al-Qaeda? [16] USchick (talk) 02:15, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

USChick, keep the noise to a minimum please. The serious editors are trying to develop difficult articles, and you are not helping by bringing up BS articles from BS sources that are never, ever going to be used. VQuakr (talk) 02:33, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll remind you about this conversation when it hits the fan, ok? Cheers! USchick (talk) 03:04, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Sure. Of course Wikipedia will probably be down what with the destruction of all infrastructure and everything, but we can sit around the campfire and share slug kabobs while you remind me of how right you were. VQuakr (talk) 06:12, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Nasty development. Ref? BTW VQuakr Improvements to help reduce the POV noted in the article by several editors could include phrases along the lines of these from the links above. Russia believes, a US strike

1. would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism.
2. will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond Syria’s borders.
3. undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the Iranian nuclear problem and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and further destabilize the Middle East and North Africa.
4. (would be) ineffective and pointless.

and a strike would be counter to.

1. improve(ing) the atmosphere in international affairs and strengthen(ing) mutual trust. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:20, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Isn't this getting a bit off topic? I suggest a spin off article about anything that Russia and US may or may not believe. USchick (talk) 02:28, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Obviously your numbered list here is a draft, but I think two or three sentences, clearly attributed to Putin, would be an excellent addition to the International reaction section. The last paragraph there is outdated, and Putin's op ed is effectively an update (albeit through unconventional channels). VQuakr (talk) 02:33, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Yup draft, two or three sentences would be good. I dont care who puts it in btw. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 03:59, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Updated draft replacing the last paragraph of the section is in the article. Feel free to revise. VQuakr (talk) 04:42, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

OK did so needs an upgrade Blade-of-the-South (talk) 09:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Turkey?

I think this edit should be reverted because there's no evidence that Turkey has offered lethal suport. Only evidence they offered land for its supply. Otherwise we will have to add Jordana nd a host of other countries to the list as well. Pass a Method talk 10:04, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure why Turkey is there either.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:55, 16 September 2013 (UTC)