Talk:Jack Ruby

"Gun" removed from Popular Culture

I have removed the sub-section "Gun" from the section "Popular Culture". Even though the type of gun to kill Oswald was a .38 Caliber Colt and has been referenced many times in pop culture, the specific gun that Ruby used to shoot Oswald has not been referenced in any pop culture and the sub-section was only about the auction that the gun was sold at.

Anyone looking to reverse the change let me know. Ug5151 (talk) 02:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

LHO "accused" or "alleged"

Multiple government investigations have concluded that LHO assassinated JFK. The evidence is copious and compelling. The fact that Oswald never stood trial, due to Ruby having shot him, is immaterial. We have numerous sources giving us the authority to say that Oswald assassinated Kennedy. Trying to water down the facts to allow the possibility that someone else killed Kennedy is WP:FRINGEy and against WP:WEIGHT. --Pete (talk) 04:33, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

That government investigations concluded LHO assassinated JFK does not prove he did it. I am not a specialist, but apparently there are evidences that have been disregarded or that contradict the conclusion of the government investigations. I do not think it is the role of Wikipedia to judge the evidences and conclusions, it is enough to say what is known: that LHO is accused of killing JFK. I will modify to say the he "assassinated, according to government investigations", as in the article on LHO. --Cokaban (talk) 10:52, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

To prove something, it is better, if possible, not to cite copious evidence but to cite one fact. --Cokaban (talk) 10:55, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

In fact, i know next to nothing about this story, but do not believe there can be a "proof", and Wikipedia should not affirm something unknown. After watching one documentary and looking up a map, i have the question: wasn't JFK shot from the front, according to the gun wound and witness accounts, while LHO was supposed to be behind on the right? Why to affirm something unknown? --Cokaban (talk) 11:24, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

This peripheral page is not the appropriate place to debate whether LHO should be described as the "alleged" assassin. Consensus at the primary topic articles is that "alleged" is inappropriate weasel-wording. The fact that he was killed before being tried does not make it impossible to state as a fact that LHO was the assassin without a trial and conviction, and the use of "alleged" is undue weight in favor of a wide variety of conspiracy theories. Acroterion (talk) 12:48, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I did not write "alleged", i wrote "accused", i do not see what was wrong about it. It was not that LHO was killed that makes impossible to state the fact. It looks like it is not known to be a fact, even if it is true. The known fact is: LHO was accused of killing JFK. --Cokaban (talk) 14:34, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

To put it simple: anyone who wishes to state in Wikipedia that LHO killed JFK must at least personally KNOW it. Otherwise only known facts should be stated. This is not about conspiracy theory (i do not propose any theory), it is about known and proved vs. unknown or unproved. Maybe i will try later to give examples from elsewhere in Wikipedia or other encyclopedias. --Cokaban (talk) 15:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand your position, but in this community, we go by the community rules and standards regardless of what we ourselves believe. This question has been debated long and hard, but we have sources - good, solid, reliable sources - that we can use to support the statement that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. Views to the contrary lack the weight we need. That's how we work, and if you think wikipolicy should be changed site-wide, then this is not the page to argue that view. --Pete (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

In this case, these sources must be cited. As i have not seen them, i cannot say more, but i doubt that, given the circumstances, a "hard" proof is even theoretically possible. Wikipedia is not about beliefs but about facts. I do not yet see the contradiction with the wikipolicy, but i have not checked the links you gave yet. --Cokaban (talk) 09:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

In fact, there is nothing special about wikipolicy in this case, rules are the same as in real life. How would you tell, for example, your child who was LHO? Would you say that he killed JFK, or would you say that he is believed by you and some others to have killed JFK? --Cokaban (talk) 10:19, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I have reinstated my contribution, amending it to include definitive proof that LHO was deemed the lone killer before any investigation could even begin. Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach designated him in his memo to Mr. Moyers, issued the day after LHO's removal. Given the official sources I have provided, it would appear extremely odd were Wikipedia to reject my contribution. Accused or alleged? Neither applies. He was simply "designated". Let's stop the bickering once and for all. 4eyes (talk) 16:50, 23 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes (talk) 16:47, 23 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes

The reliable sources all say that Oswald fired the fatal shot, and therefore he was the assassin, and that's what these articles must say. The wide variety of unreliable souces pushing many speculative, mutually exclusive conspiracy theories does not change the clear consensus of reliable sources and professional investigations. Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy, just as John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln. Neither was tried nor convicted, but both are called the assassin by the reliable sources. All other scenarios are unreliable speculative conspiracy theories, which can be described in the articles about those conspiracy theories. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:53, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The Warren Commission

It is known fact that this group began with the premise that "LHO killed JFK" and then set out to write the report that supported that claim. It is known fact that the three shots supposedly fired by LHO were physically impossible to make in the time allotted. This is not "leaning towards conspiracy theory". It is stating independent fact. It is therefore perfectly acceptable to make reference to the uncertainty surrounding the culpability of LHO when stating that JR killed him. 4eyes (talk) 00:01, 22 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4eyes (talk • contribs) 23:19, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

You are completely incorrect that it was "physically impossible" to get off those three shots with that rifle at those people in that moving vehicle from that sniper perch. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? Absolutely not. Oswald was a marksman and other skilled shooters have duplicated the feat, as closely as conditions can be replicated. Skilled and lucky shooting, from Oswald's point of view? Yes. Impossible? Absolutely not. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:07, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Read my references!

People, why is it so hard for you to accept reality? My contribution cites official, verifiable information. The latest "undo" of it cites "common sense". Are you serious? Also, before invoking WPBRD, I suggest you read it. I did. And I have followed the procedures. You have NOT. NO ONE has chosen to refute or discuss my contribution in a civilized manner. Stop your baseless bullying and fulfill your obligation to publish FACTUAL, verifiable information, not "common sense", especially here, on such an important historical incident. Thank you. 4eyes (talk) 21:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes

The sources provided are far from adequate to support the assertions made.

Your interpretation of a memo is neither official nor a verifiable source. You claim this memo instructed the Warren Commission to make certain findings, yet the memo was written before the commission was established, and in fact indicated Katzenbach's preference that such a commision not be established, relying on an investigation by the FBI instead.

The History Channel is known for having many dramatic episodes about Nazi Germany; it is not known for its scholarly research. Even if it were a marginally reliable source, citing a full 93-minute video for a contentious point is about as acceptable as saying "Read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It's in there somewhere." Where and by whom is it stated that "considerable hard evidence proving the contrary was known at the time"? Fat&Happy (talk) 23:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I sometimes enjoy watching shows on the History Channel, but some are better than others. Many of their shows resort to sensationalism and speculation, and they are willing to advance wild fringe claims to get viewers, often accompanied by low key disclaimers stating that they don't as a network endorse the factual nature of the claims the show makes. That channel should not be considered a reliable source for controversial claims. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:02, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin". What is not clear about that sentence? I am not "interpreting" anything. It's written in plain English. As for the establishment of the commission, it was set up shortly after the issuance of this memo. Had you thoroughly read it, you would see that the proposal to create a commission (composed of "unimpeachable" people) was made in a "cya" environment (cover your ass) because there was doubt that the simple issuing of an FBI report would be sufficient to convince the US and the world. That's why, ultimately, the commission was formed. As such, their "investigation" began with the fait accompli outlined in that memo. Links to it are readily available, including from the official government archives JFK commemorative website. Note that there is also a plain text version, however I personally prefer the old typewriter version with date and signature.

Also, citing totally unrelated subjects, such as you done here with the History Channel, is common practice used to distract and derail the debate. I will not reply further.4eyes (talk) 16:19, 24 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes