Talk:Christian Science

Errors

Marrante, you said above that there were errors in the article. It would be helpful if you (or anyone else) would list the errors you've found. Something like the following would help us keep track. SlimVirgin ^(talk)

List of errors/proposals

Archived

"Normal school" needs link  Done No such thing as malping  Done (footnote removed) Wiktionary link to "at-one-ment"  Not done (not an RS for a dictionary definition, and not appropriate within a quotation) Add etymology of atonement  Done (added OED ref) [1] Normal class instruction not 6 weeks, it is 1 week (See Manual, Article XXX)  Done Stephen Gottschalk was not a "member" of the Committee on Publications – it is ONE person, as per first definition  Done (changed to "worked for") Dickey ref (cited in Gardner) is inaccurate - no names are mentioned on this page (I have the book)  Done (This is about footnote 91: Dickey 1927, p. 45, cited in Gardner 1993, pp. 116–117. I don't have the book in front of me, but Dickey is named on pp. 113, 114 and 116, according to Google snippet view [2] "According to Dickey" removed for now, added quote from Cather and Milmine to footnote. [3]) State time frame (1878 / witchcraft trial) - footnote makes time frame clear, but article creates false impression of watches (see discussion)  Done (Added "In preparation for the trial, Eddy organized 24-hour "watches" in her home, during which her students (known as "mental workers") were asked to use their minds to block MAM from Kennedy or Spofford. She continued to organize watches for the rest of her life. In her home at Pleasant View in Concord, New Hampshire, where she lived from 1889, she required the watchers to attend two hour-long daily meetings to address specific issues that might be manifestations of MAM, such as bad weather or a negative newspaper article. Gill writes that Eddy took the term watch from the New Testament story about Jesus's night in Gethsemane with his disciples.") McClure's not identified as prominent muckraking magazine  Not done ("muckraking" just means watchdog/investigative journalism; readers can click on the link if they want to read more about McClure's) "Mary is dying" story is inaccurate (is in MBE section, end of par. 2) - see discussion  Not done (we would need independent sources arguing that it was wrong) Add physicians who have become Christian Scientists  Not done (violation of UNDUE and lack of secondary sources) Add Helmuth James Graf von Moltke to list of people who grew up in CS, but left it (in his case at the age of confirmation in Germany) - not an "error" per se, but would broaden the list to include non-Americans  Done "given no formal education" – should be "little formal education" (she attended Sanbornton Academy and possibly Holmes Academy - see discussion)  Done Helmuth James Graf von Moltke should either not be piped or pipe it to be "Helmuth James von Moltke". His father was Helmuth von Moltke. That family tree is a nightmare to follow. I frankly would leave it unpiped, long as it is.  Done Remove Hemingway  Done Normal class - when I wikilinked this, I only did "normal" because I thought "normal class" would make it look like the link was to an article about CS normal class, when it was just the word "normal" that needed clarification ("normal" had been in quotes because not understood as referring to the training of teachers) - I tend to think it should remain that way, even though your change seems intuitive  Not done (linking "normal" alone would look odd) "Raised by Christian Scientists" (notable members) should be changed to "raised in Christian Science" – "by Christian Scientists" makes it sound like the parents were adoptive – would you write "raised by Jews"?  Done "Scientific statement of being" is not "repeated during services", it is read to the congregation at the end; footnote to branch church website with photos should be removed – it does not contain what the footnote says, no photo shows it being read, nor does text say so  Done (changed "repeated" to "read out") Tommy Davis ("Notable members") does not seem to be wikilinked to the right article  Done "The president for 2012–2013 is Chet Manchester.[217] The organization is presided over by a five-person executive" – the "president" presides, not the Board of Directors, who are executive administrators and stay in office indefinitely, unlike the president who serves 1 year. Manchester, btw, is no longer president.  Done Cult references (par. 2 of View of the Christian clergy, Mark Twain) highly misleading – the word is not a pejorative. The NYT reference should be removed as per WP:RNPOV and the definition of the word explained in the article (see discussion)  Done (added quote to footnote, which explains the usage of cult at the turn of the century) Christian Scientists do believe that Jesus died  Not done (sentence made invisible for now; update: unable to find CS or academic sources confirming that CS holds Jesus died, so restored some of prior text with in-text attribution) Christian Science is not part of New Thought - see section: New Thought/Christianity  Done (the article follows the academic sources; added "J. Gordon Melton writes that Christian Science leaders see their religion as part of mainstream Christianity, and resent being identified with the New Thought movement; he argues that there are nevertheless strong differences between Christian Science and traditional Christianity, including views about the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, the creation and atonement for sin.") Change "contributions called testimonies" – remove "contributions called" (see discussion)  Not done ("testimony" implies that it is more than a claim) Theology misstated – story of creation is not "a set of allegorical narratives", the allegory begins with the second chapter of Genesis  Done (not clear what is being proposed; update: this now simply says: "Eddy saw ... the creation narrative in the Book of Genesis (c. 950–500 BCE) as spiritually authoritative, but not a literal account.") Payment of annual tax (Governance section, current par. 4) should state that the tax is a minimum of $1 – is highly misleading w/o this detail (amount is stipulated in Manual)  Not done (the article says: "Requirements include ... payment of an annual tax to the church ..." We would need a source to show that this is misleading as written, and/or that significant numbers pay only $1.) Eddy's second marriage description is highly misleading (see discussion)  Not done (the article says "Her second husband, who left her after 13 years of marriage ..." then discusses the guardianship; anything else is too detailed for this article, especially as the sources disagree) Gottschalk misconstrued in par. 1 of "Christian Science prayer and treatment" (see discussion)  Not done (not clear what is being proposed) Add that Introduce Christian Science as a Christian denomination. How many sources? 1. http://time4thinkers.com/t4t-events/christianity-beyond-borders/ Rev Doctor Michael Kinnamon, General Secretary of National Council of Churches. Perfect reference!!! Very lovely discussion about how Christian Science is Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.253.210 (talk) 01:43, 25 January 2014 (UTC)  Done (worded differently and with a different source}

Traditional Protestant Theology

I've changed this to be more in accord with the sources given: "Christian Scientists see their religion as consistent with Christian theology, despite key differences from traditional Protestant teaching.[7]"Be-nice:-) (talk) 14:55, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I reverted it, as it unduly picked out part of the cited text. You could equally have picked out that it "radically reinterprets" or "conflicts with" mainstream Christianity, which would be bad in the other direction. The consensus text is a good neutral summary of the text cited as source. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 15:04, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't mind "radically reinterprets".Simplywater (talk) 19:25, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Nor do I. In fact I don't see a problem with saying that CS conflicts with mainstream Christianity (but that may be just me so let's ignore that)...How about this: "Christian Scientists see their religion as consistent with traditional Christian theology, despite the fact that it radically reinterprets the latter." (Or leave out "traditional" if you like.) Consensus?Be-nice:-) (talk) 00:34, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't see what's wrong with the current wording, namely "key differences." If it radically reinterprets, it means there are key differences, not least of which is that CS says the world does not exist. That's a fairly major difference right there! :) (Just from a writing perspective, fewer words are always good for the lead, so "despite key differences" is better than "despite the fact that it radically reinterprets the latter.") SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:38, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I would leave out the 'traditional'.Simplywater (talk) 01:01, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, first of all I am amazed that you can make such a basic error as stating that CS believes that "the world does not exist." CS certainly does teach that the world exists, as evidenced by the following quote from Science and Health (definition of "Earth" on p. 585 of S&H): "To material sense, earth is matter; to spiritual sense, it is a compound idea." CS teaches that the world is real and that it exists, but that it exists as spiritual reality rather than as materiality - the spiritual world is the only world there is, but it is misperceived as being material. The closest parallel I know of in philosophy is Platonism, though Platonic philosophy is not exactly the same as the philosophy of CS. (Indeed, Platonic ontology/metaphysics is sometimes defined as "realism" since, like CS, it teaches the reality of a world of forms or ideas beyond our current experience.) More recently, Berkeley argued that there is no reason to use the term "matter" to describe what we perceive as the world around us. In contemporary philosophy, materialism and realism have been fighting a losing battle with anti-realism and perspectivism for decades. Quantum physicists debates whether we are just one of a multitude of parallel worlds, or alternatively whether we are creating the world as we go along via the process of observation. All we know about a material world comes to us through photons, vibrations and molecules and corresponding electrical signals which are interpreted by mental expectations and remembrances etc that we bring to bear on them. (We might as well be brains in a vat for all we know, or victims of mechanical energy-vampires living in an illusory consensus reality a la The Matrix.) Anyway, apart from all that, the problem with the current wording is that (a) it doesn't accurately reflect the sources; and (b) it states (erroneously) that there are key difference between CS and Christian theology per se, rather than between CS and mainstream (or traditional) Christian theology. By the way, if we had been having this discussion a thousand years ago, mainstream Christian theology (under the influence of Plato rather than Aristotle who later came to dominate it) would have been much more in accord with CS teaching than is the case today.Be-nice:-) (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I meant the material world. :) As for that sentence in the lead, it used to say "traditional," but Simplywater removed it. [4] SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:21, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

OK...anyway I enjoyed the philosophical riff...speaking of which, I just ordered the book "CS and Philosophy" and hope to make some use of it if I get the time (which doesn't exist according to CS...) And Simplywater, could you have another look at what SV says above? I think we're both trying to say the same thing, but let's keep it as simple as possible! ThanksBe-nice:-) (talk) 01:35, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I worry in general that the secondary sources impose a coherence on Eddy that isn't really there. For a lot of the sentences in which people say she argues X, I'm pretty sure I could find something where she seems to argue not-X. But maybe I need to sit down and read Science and Health from start to finish, rather than dipping in and out as I have; I think I've read it all, but I've done it by bobbing around. Interesting that you ordered that book; I look forward to hearing more about it if you have time. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:40, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't sentence my worst enemy to read Science and Health from beginning to end. I suspect most Christian Scientists have not. It is more than occasionally a flavour of 19th century expository prose that makes Henry James look transparent. By that token (and this may be part of the problem here) it almost requires interpretation by secondary sources to be accessible to modern readers, including students of Christian Science, not familiar with CS language. How to make sense of (always my favorite) "Ancient and Modern Necromancy, alias Mesmerism and Hypnotism, Denounced" to a 21st century reader? --Digitalican (talk) 03:54, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I find I need to press the "reverence" button in my consciousness to read S&H with some understanding. (Even then, the mind has a tendency to wander into the byways of materiality and relativity.) There is a dialectical relationship between understanding the whole and the parts - a familiar issue in exegesis. BTW in regard to issues of interpretation, Nietzsche - perhaps the dialectical opposite of Eddy in ideological terms - suffers from the same syndrome of apparent lack of straightforwardness. (Though in his case there seems to be almost a wilful delight in making contradictory statements.)Be-nice:-) (talk) 10:35, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Also, Eddy often shifts between an "absolute" and a "relative" mode of description. One needs to bear in mind the absolute/relative dichotomy in her thought in order to understand what she is saying at any particular point.Be-nice:-) (talk) 10:43, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

This is how I have come to understand it. I may look at a tree and see a material form. That's because I can't conceive of the spiritually perfect Good, as Jesus Christ could. My physical senses, my finite conception of life have reduced the tree to a material form. For us, Jesus, as his Son, saw as God sees. With his spiritual senses he could see a person's spiritual nature. Which is really qualities, and not matter. Intelligence, integrity, honesty, beauty. For us, there aren't two worlds. Matter is 'viewing through that glass darkly'. The spiritual reality is right in front of our noses. Our finite understanding of God, The Kingdom of Heaven, All Good, perceives individual natures in a finite form that we call solid matter.

This biblical verse always accompanies the Scientific Statement of Being

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.Simplywater (talk) 21:35, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

We all (implicitly) value truth above all else in our disputations. (Even people who claim that there is no such thing as truth, put that forward as a true statement.) We value beauty and sublimity above other qualities, when it comes to the appreciation of nature. We implicitly value goodness and love in our moral systems (whatever they may be). These are intangible ("spiritual" if you like) qualities which all, or most, people believe should be cherished and striven towards. Even if people don't believe that such qualities (ideas) actually exist in some way (as eg Plato and Mary Baker Eddy did), they almost always behave as if the qualities in question might exist more tangibly in the future. These qualities or values are, in a sense, what make the world go around. Christian Scientists claim that such qualities actually have substantial existence; most other people behave as if they ought to have such existence, at least. In the realm of spiritual reality there is a reconciliation of "is" with "ought", because that which is (spiritually speaking) is what ought to be, and vice versa. I can't conceive of that as anything else but total dematerialization and the abolition of dualism and fragmentation. In reality, we are all hanging in there together in love, as we (unsuccessfully) strive to do in our poor human symbolic world, and some day we will find in Spirit that union that we seek futilely in matter. There is only one "I" or "Us" as MBE writes in the textbook. Personally, I see very little difference between CS and Buddhism when it comes to such ultimate issues, though there are no doubt Christian Scientists who would disagree with me on that.Be-nice:-) (talk) 20:33, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Recent edits

These are the problems with the recent edits. I've written this out in case it's helpful, but please bear in mind that this is time-consuming, so it's not something that can be done whenever edits like this are made.

Edit

The significance of this event which Mary Baker Eddy would later refer to as her "falling apple" "marked the abandonment of Quimby's mental and magnetic teachings". As she was alone, without her magnetic healer, Eddy's spiritual realization highlighted for her, Jesus as healer and that his powers "could be acquired by others."

Issues

1. Re: Lewis p 176: This is The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions, 2001, which isn't referenced already; the Lewis book already in use is Lewis 2003, so "Lewis p. 176" causes confusion.
2. Gooden isn't the author of that book (she just wrote an intro). The author is Mrs. Edward Mix, and the title is Faith Cures, and Answers to Prayer.
3. Gooden's intro isn't about Eddy (she is mentioned only in passing).
4. I can't find much of a publishing history for Gooden.
5. Gooden doesn't say anything about Eddy being alone without her magnetic healer, doesn't mention Quimby that I can see.
6. It wouldn't have been the significance of the event that marked the abandonment, but the event itself.
7. The edit assumes that the event (the fall) was significant at the time, but the rest of the section contradicts that. If you want to argue that it was significant for Eddy when it occurred, rather than something she invested with significance years later, you would need sources to show that (there aren't any that I'm aware of).
8. Minor punctuation issue: the period should be placed before the ref tags (i.e. after teachings).

Edit

As editor of the Christian Science Journal, Emma Curtis Hopkins secretly investigated the accusations of the Dressers. While Melton claimed Hopkins eventually left Eddy's movement because of philosophical differences, Harley claims and she may have been fired for her investigation. In 1885 Hopkins wrote of her findings "I found Eddy free to her own original inspiration. I saw all the letters said to be written to Dresser and Quimby and not one them could be held as argument against her supreme originality"

Issues

1. The article hadn't by this point mentioned the Christian Science Journal or Emma Curtis Hopkins.
2. The article had so far mentioned only one Dresser, not two.
3. Why did Hopkins have to investigate secretly? Needs an explanation.
4. Who is Harley? (needs full name, link or description on first reference)
5. That Hopkins might have been fired for this makes no sense, so would have to be explained (this is just a guess on Harley's part, and indeed she goes on to qualify it).
6. This is the first mention of letters.
7. Minor punctuation issue: the comma should be placed before the ref tags (i.e. after differences), and the final sentence lacks a period.
8. Minor referencing issue: the article uses short refs in the text and long refs in the References section.

An article has to have a narrative flow, so that someone reading it from start to finish will understand it. Material can't just be pasted in; each sentence and paragraph within a section should flow from the previous one. It's important to check that new material hasn't already been mentioned, and that it doesn't contradict other material without explanation. When a new name is introduced, it needs to be linked or described, sometimes both. When a new issue is introduced, it has to be explained.

Also, an effort should be made to determine whether a source is appropriate for an issue, rather than relying on the minimum threshold of reliability. It's worth checking, too, that the source is scholarly and rigorous, and doesn't express a tiny-minority view (which could mean the source should be used with caution and in-text attribution, or perhaps not used at all). SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:39, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your wonderful reply. Let's take this one step at a time

• Narrative flow. I agree completely. You write very tightly so it is difficult to add anything without rewriting your work, which I don't feel comfortable doing. I add what may be interesting and allow you to weave it in as you like
• I can fix the Lewis reference
• Eddy found herself alone - Up to that time, and for still a time after this fall, Eddy is dependent of the mesmeric aid of others for health.. We don't have any record of her healing herself.

1. Gill - Mrs. Patterson asked for her Bible, sent everyone out of her bedroom, and then amazed them all by getting out of her bed unaided. 162
2. Mrs. Mary Glover wrote to Mr. W.W,Wright, I have demonstrated upon myself in an injury occasioned by a fall, that it did for me what surgeons could not do.
3. "The falling apple that led me to the discovery how to be well myself, and how to make other so." Gill page 163

For Eddy, this event marks the start of her trust in "God" as the healer as opposed to a person.

• Abandonment- Both Lewis and Melton, Encyclopedia Handbook of Cults, refer to this event as Eddy's departure from Quimby and recognizing "God" as the healing agent.

If Eddy had fallen, and Quimby had healed her, her departure from mesmerism to Christian Science wouldn't have happened. The death of her brother, her first husband, her son, her mother, the death of her father, the death of Quimby, the absence of her husband, and poverty, forced her to turn to something else than a human. She turns to Jesus' words with a new paradigm than before she met Quimby and understands something. Something that at the age or 40 something makes her life take 180 degree turn. What is amazing to me, is that this woman had the most pitiful life, and comes up with a theology that God is all Good.

Faith, Cures and Answers to Prayers

• is from a series of Women and Gender in North American Religions. Amanda Porterfield, and Mary Farrell Bednarowski are the series Editors
• Gooden generously devotes 6 pages to Eddy, (you may not have the book)meticulously making a case that Eddy is a link proving that 'mind cure' is simply an offshoot of a movement inspired by Wesley in the late 1700's in England. An argument that others, including Melton, Curtis, and Porterfield make in various degress.Simplywater (talk) 01:42, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

continuing the denomination discussion

Not sure why this was archived.

Slim Virgin, we need to discuss why this article will not use the word 'denomination. Why aren't you participating in this discussion?

"The Christian Science Church is considered a religious denomination with an organization in the United States."http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/87563.pdf RS sources that refer to Christian Science as a denomination.

"Between 1900 and 1925 Christian Science was one of the fastest growing denominations in the United States"

Vorton, James C, Nature Cures, The History of American Medicine in America, Oxford University Press (page 123)http://books.google.com/booksid=N21eyOQlE0kC&pg=PA123&dq=women+founded+denomination+eddy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ymEPU6uzDeHQ0wHwkoDoBQ&ved=0CFYQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=christian%20science&f=false

".... women were preaching and some like the Pentecostal Aimme Semple Mc Phersm, the Shaker Ann Lee, The Seventh Day Adventist Ellen Gould White, and the Christian Scientist Mary Baker Eddy, founded their own denominations."

Oppenheimer, Mark; Knocking on Heaven's Door: American Religion in the Age of Counterculture, Yale Press (page 134) ://books.google.com/books?id=7j6wzn4Aoz8C&pg=PA134&dq=denomination+founded+by+women+eddy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lVwPU97vMO-50AGF4YGoBQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=denomination%20founded%20by%20women%20eddy&f=false

"Revivalism and the work of charismatic leaders had also been an important source of new denominations contributing not only to the schims of the Great Revival period earlier in the century but also to the later emergence of such denominations as the Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Salvation Army, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Pentecostal Holiness Church."

Wuthhow, Robert; The Restructuring of American Religion, Princeton University Press pg 21

"In most books on cults published from the turn of the century inot the 1960's the largest share of space is devoted to movements that generally viewed themselves as Christianity and eventually would be recognized as respectable denominations: Christian Science and New Thought groups, the Latter Day Saints, apocalyptic sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Pentecostal Adventists."

Jenkins, Philip; Mystics and Messiahs, Cults and New Religions in American History, Oxford Univerisity Press. page 46

"Christian Science and Seventh Day Adventism were two denominations that institutionalized their approaches to healing and the body in religious context"

Harvey, Paul; Themes in Religion and American Culture; The University of North Carolina Press. p. 86

1. "It is by no means easy to produce direct evidence of the age structure of the Christian Science denomination in this country"
2. "Christian Science is one of the few denominations in the United States which had, even by 1926 spread.
3. " Christian Scientists had risen by 300 per cent in value, a figure approximated by only one other denomination - the Disciples of Christ."

:::Wilson, Bryan; Sects and Societies, Univerisity of California Press, pages 205, 149, 150

"In 1875 Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910) introduced a new variety of Protestantism with a radical rendition of the modernist position: not only can Christianity accommodate science, it is science" :::Hillerbrand, Hans, The Encyclopedia of Protestantism,p 410

"Christian Science, religious denomination founded in the United States in 1879 by Mary Baker Eddy (1821–1910), author of the book that contains the definitive statement of its teaching, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures (1875). It is widely known for its highly controversial practice of spiritual healing...." :::Melton, Gordon and Gottschalk, Stephen - Encyclopedia Britannia, http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/115181/Christian-Science/8362/Significance

"The increasing pluralization and secularization of society, as well as the substabtial splintering of Protestantism and the creation of new non-orthodox denominations such as Christian Science and the Latter Day Saints, weakened the social and cultural consensus of traditionally Protestant nations."

Naphy, William, The Protestant Revolution: From Martin Luther to Martin Luther King Jr. Random House page clxxxii.

'"Fry eyed four major denominations which had doubled in size in the previous twenty years. These were the Church of Christ, Scientist, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the African Methodist Episcopal Church and the Churches of Christ."'''' :::Marty, Martin, University of Chicago Press, Modern American Religion, Volumne 2 1919-1941. p 33

"Seventh Day Adventism remains unusual among the new denominations which include the Church of Christ, Scientist, the Church of Latter Day Saints, and Jehovah's Witnesses in establishing training hospitals and contributing actively to medical research. Several but not all of the denominations have instituted strict codes of dietary practice. Between the physicians and the Christian Scientists, between the physcisians and the Jehovah's Witnesses, relations have been and remain strained" :::Faubin, James; An Anthology of Ethics, Cambridge University Press p 228

"Another illustration of the policy of the law in preventing religious opinion from resulting in overt acts of afforded by the Christian Scientists. This denomination believes that all the ills of the body can be cured by prayers." :::Zollermann, Carl; American Civil Church Law, The Lawbook Exchange pg 18Simplywater (talk) 01:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Break

Simplywater, I'm sorry but I think this is going to be my last response to you, barring anything unforeseen. (By the way, the more bold, italics and raw links there are in your posts, the harder they are to read.)

You are using the word denomination in a loaded way. Most people who use it simply mean religion or religious group. Just as it's best to avoid the words sect and cult, it's similarly sensible to avoid the word denomination in case it's understood in its loaded sense. (Sect is not used in the article at all to describe CS; cult is used only in one sentence to describe how CS was seen historically, and in a second to describe that some church people were angered by the Bliss Knapp book because it made CS look like a cult.) The article therefore sticks with terms that most of the academic sources (not only cherry-picked ones) use and would not dispute. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:27, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Due Weight.

Trying to understand what you mean by "loaded". It seems like a very normal word to me. Which you refuse to use. That is your perspective.

Could you give me a source that says that 'denomination' is a loaded word? Perhaps in a Orthodox Christian world that wants to control what is a denomination and what is not, the word is loaded. :But Wiki doesn't live in that world.

Your opinion needs to be sourced. Do you have one? Love to see it. Simplywater (talk) 00:23, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The word is used simply to mean religion most of the time. But there is an academic debate about the denomination–sect–cult divide, where the terms have particular meanings, and some scholars say Christian Science is not a denomination in that sense. (I had assumed you knew this; otherwise there would be no reason for you to keep adding it.) Because the word has a particular meaning within that debate, and not all academics agree about it, the article avoids it (so as not to take a "side"), and also avoids sect. It now also avoids cult, except for the two exceptions I mentioned above, where the use is unavoidable. Instead, the article uses terms to describe CS that no academic would object to. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:35, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, let's count sources. How many RS sources do you have that say that say the words "It is not a denomination?".Simplywater (talk) 00:41, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

SV, several months ago when you told me there weren't any sources that called Christian Science a denomination, I believed you. And I thought, huh, I always thought we were a denomination. So I looked around and found lots and lots of dictionaries and non RS sources that said "Christian Science is a denomination, bla bla bla". And I brought them here. And was told "It's not RS". And I thought. huh. ok. I guess we really aren't a denomination. Then I learned what was RS. And I looked deeper. And found that lots of RS sources call us a denomination from Oxford University Press, Princeton Press, Yale Press. Do you think these RS academics don't know what they are doing when they use the word 'denomination'?

But when I saw on the Christian Science page, a quote by Philip Jenkins that Christian Science was a cult. Only to look deeper at his book to find him saying..... "But really it is a denomination". And when I added that to the text, you removed it. Then, SV, I lost all trust. Which is not good.

• What I've learned is that most scholars are not participating in that petty debate about if it is a denomination or not.Simplywater (talk) 01:14, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
• It simply is a denomination.

waiting for your list of RS sources that say "it is not a denomination". Simplywater (talk) 19:28, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Tremont temple.

Last Historic topic is Tremont Temple.

These books cover the event -

• Faith, Cures, and Answered Prayers, -Rosemary Gooden University of Syracuse Press
• Mary Baker Eddy, Gillian Gill
• The Emergence of Christian Science in American Religious Life and Rolling Away the Stone Gottschalk, Stephen,
• Joe,EW Kenyon and his Message of Faith, The True Story, McIntire,
• Fundamentalists in the City, Conflict and Division in Boston's Churches, Oxford Press
• Defense of Christian Science against Joseph Cook and J. Gordon's religious ban, Mary Baker Eddy

This is an obscure book by Mary Baker Eddy. This is not circulated by the Church, but is available on-line by Kessinger Publishing as a historic document.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PhNlewAACAAJ&dq=defense+of+Christian+Science+against&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WvotU6maMYeEogT29oF4&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg Not sure where it should go, but it is historically noteworthySimplywater (talk) 21:15, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

This is rough. Holiness movement and Tremont Temple.

The 19th century religious landscape was complex making it difficult to categorize the healing movements of the time. The explosion of Protestant divine healing movements (also referred to as faith healing, faith cure, or simply healing movement)crossed several Protestant denominations starting in the early 1800’s in England with the Primative Methodists inspired by "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection" written by John Wesley.the minister who founded Methodism. Christian Science needs to be viewed within the context of the Holiness movement both because of the access this movement gave to women and because Eddy was “an heir to Wesley’s understanding of Christian Healing.”

John Wesley ‘emphasized the importance of subjective experience of the Spirit’ and wrote “I believe that God now hears and answers prayer even beyond the ordinary course of nature.” Although he healed, spiritual healing was not his focus. In the 1830’s American Methodist lay woman, Phoebe Palmer “reformulated” John Wesley’s teaching. Palmer argued that ‘perfection’ or ‘holiness’ didn’t need to be a process but could be immediate. Physical healing of the body was evidence of instantaneous sanctification. Ethan O. Allen a Methodist layman who believed that purification from sin would eradicate sickness, became the first evangelist to make healing his ministry. Charles Cullis, an Episcopal layman and homeopathic physician in Boston advocated that complete salvation included both spiritual and physical healing.

Mary Baker Eddy is included in the list of Protestant reformers “who objected to the notion that God ordained bodily suffering”. </ref> Porterfield, Amanda; Healing in the history of Christianity, Oxford University Press, pp 178-180 and Christian Science had in common the beliefs of nineteenth century evangelical Protestantism which included a strong belief in the spiritual power of healing. yet Christian Science and other ‘divine healing’ leaders never joined forces. When clergy tried to point out the differences, in the eyes of the public, they seemed the same.

In 1885 Methodist minister and Boston University Professor Luther T. Townsend, an adversary among others, of the divine healing movement and mind cure movement, wrote a treatise called “Faith Work, Christian Science and Other Cures”. In that treatise Townsend highlighted the similarities between the divine healing movement and Christian Science saying both were the response of the operation of ordinary ‘physical laws’ without intervention or the miraculous power of God. Around the same time A.J. Gordon a proponent of Christian perfection and involved in the divine healing movement, wanted to distance his movement from Christian Science. A letter, written by Gordon was sent to the popular Evangelical Boston lecturer Joseph Cook, and in February 1885 at the Tremont Temple Monday lectures, to a crowd of 3,000, the letter was read by Cook. Through the letter Gordon attacked Christian Science saying it was a 'false religion'. He also said through Cook that “it was anti-christian in it’s no personal Deity, no personal devil, no personal man, no forgiveness of sin, no such think as sin, no sacrificial atonement, no intercesary prayer”. Hearing about the attack, Mary Baker Eddy wrote Cook and asked for the opportunity to reply. He agreed and gave her 10 minitues to defend her system of healing as Christian at one of the Monday Tremont Temple lectures

On March 16, 1885 at Tremont Temple, to a crowed of 3,000 in an extemporaneous reply, Eddy asked “Do not the reverend gentlemen demand the right to explain their creed?” She then commenced to explain her doctrines on atonement, God, sin and the trinity. She said

Do I believe in a personal God?

I believe in God as the Supreme Being. I know not what the person of omnipotence and ominipresence is, or :::what the infinite includes; therefore, I worship that of which I can conceive, first as a loving Father and Mother; then as thought ascends the scale of being to diviner consciousness, God becomes to me, as to the apostle who declared it, “God is Love”, - divine Principle, - which I worship; and ‘after the manner of my fathers, so worship I God.”

In reply to attacks on her doctrine of atonement, Eddy replied that ‘this becomes more to me since it includes man’s redemption from sickness as well as from sin. I reverence and adore Christ as never before.” Some argue that Eddy’s doctrine of atonement, which includes both salvation from sin and suffering was the same doctrine of the faith cure movement and a result of the Protestant healing movement of the 1830's Although having "obvious ties to Christian tradition", many theologians feel a deeper understanding of the theology places it outside traditional Christian theology. Today Christian Scientists distance themselves from 20th century faith cure movements who have have “ridgely proscriptive views of medicine” . . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simplywater (talk • contribs) 04:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

why are we using Fraser' book? It is not RS

Still trying to understand the rules here? This book is not RS.Simplywater (talk) 20:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)think we should look at what she says about people feeling ostrasized for using medical treatment and not

I don't mind Fraser's book so much, although her experience is nothing like what I had growing up. But I do perpetuate the thought that Christian Scientists who use medical treatment are somehow hypocrites. I can honestly say that I had more "shaming" from non Christian Scientists than from Christian Scientists when the topic of medical use was brought up. "oh, I thought you were a Christian Scientist" (I've never used medical care, but just so you know, non Christian Scientists can be much harder on Christian Scientists. You can see that in this article.

In a few places, this article tries to place "shame" on Mary Baker Eddy on her private health care choices. Refering to her husband, As if she were a hypocrite. I feel this article should not in anyway promote the thought that if a Christian Scientist, even if it is Mary Baker Eddy, chooses a particular medical route, that it is hypocritical. Each of us practice it in the way that we are able. Neither the Christian Science community nor wikipedia should point fingers at personal health choices or hold those choices up for others to make judgement. Perhaps we could reword a few of those parts to make them a bit more neutral.Simplywater (talk) 20:47, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

This section is a bit one sided. And I didn't see any references that give insight on the Christian Science perspective. I would like to add this quote/

.... members of this denomination take community concerns about the well being of children with deep seriousness. They have a strong record of cooperation with public officials over the years. (When Parents Say 'no')http://books.google.com/books?id=b-1RxqQM65QC&printsec=frontcover&dq=when+parents+say+no&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BOQxU_CzBNL9oATy34GICw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=christian%20science&f=false

or I guess we should just get rid of the Fraser book which is not RS.Simplywater (talk) 20:56, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The health claims of CS are subject to WP:FRINGE guidance and should be placed firmly in the context of the mainstream view (that they are harmful nonsense). That is the neutral way. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 21:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

So sorry you misunderstood the quote. This quote does not make any reference to 'health claims'. Perhaps you didn't read it. The quote is from a medical book. It talks about CS cooperating with health officials.

...members of this denomination take community concerns about the well being of children with deep seriousness. They have a strong record of copperation with public health officialsSimplywater (talk) 21:44, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Any health material needs to be better-sourced than this. You've cherry picked something from a quoted 1983 position paper from the CS church and put it in Wikipedia's voice - that's about as unreliable/undue/non-neutral as it's possible to get! Something like PMID 20506692 could be better, but I'm not sure it's saying anything the article lacks. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 06:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

No Problem, Here are a few other RS sources that say the same thing.

• Transcultural Concepts in Nursing Care, Wolters Kluver Health Page 382

Where medical treatment is required by law, Christian Scientists strictly adhere to the requirments

• When Parents Say No, Sigma Theta Tau Publishing (http://www.nursingsociety.org/Publications/Pages/default.aspx

members of this denomination take community concerns about the well being of children with deep seriousness. They have a strong record of cooperation with public health officials over the years. (quote from Nate Talbot. but the book is RS and very respected in the nursing field.)

• Many faces of Faith, A Guide to World Religions, page 191

Christian Scientists also teach full adherence to the law

This particular section is a bit loaded and needs something to add balance and neutrality. I feel it I important that the message about obeying the law comes from a Christian Scientist and from an RS source. When Parents Say 'No' is RS. That communicates a clear message to any Christian Scientist and to the public who reads this article. We obey the law. We cooperate with public health officials.Simplywater (talk) 21:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I've found several different places where Fraser's information is simply incorrect. ie where there is an established CS movement in the world. We have never had a big following in Scandanavia. Wow.

I don't mind her work being used if there is an RS source to back up what she is saying. Other than that. It needs to come out. She is not an academic teacher, there is a reason her book is not peer reviewed. It is not factual and is only based on 'her feel' of things. Which is not academic. We are all playing by the same rules.Simplywater (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

"Thoughts of the parents can harm the children" - This is misquoted. Mary Baker Eddy is referring here to heredity specifically. She doesn't use the word 'harm'. She is just acknowledging that in this world, there is a strong belief that the 'genes' of the parents can influence the health of a child. Christian Science translates that into 'thoughts' You can imagine a doctor saying 'well you had XX and through your gene have given it to your child" So in Christian Science, before one can prayerfully address the problem of a young child, the parent must first handle it for themselves. Simplywater (talk) 22:18, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Rosemary Gooden - allowing a different voice

Really surprized SV that we can't find a place for Gooden's theological analysis. Looking at wiki, black theologians are simply missing. Faith Cures and Answered Prayers is RS, and a part of the Women and Gender in North American Religions... edited by Amanda Porterfield and Mary Farrell Bednarowski. Wiki needs to make a greater effort at encouraging a presence of african american theologians.

She devotes a great deal of thought to Christian Science in her introduction and I am sad that her ideas are not being allowed. I have tried 4 different ways to include her ideas. Each have been reversed by you.Simplywater (talk) 21:36, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The sex, ethnicity, beliefs, sexual preferences, etc. of authors do not in general count towards how their sources are evaluated for Wikipedia's purposes. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 06:58, 26 March 2014 (UTC)