Talk:Christ myth theory

To Do List: Source Verification and Revisions

Use this section to report false, misquoted, and misrepresented citations, and to explain subsequent revisions.

To Do List: Source Verification and Revisions

Use this section to report false, misquoted, and misrepresented citations, and to explain subsequent revisions.

Citations Specifying the Narrow Definition of the CMT

section is for references only
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm creating a new section for reference purposes. Can someone make it collapsible so it doesn't clutter up the rest of this page? (I forgot how to do it and I don't have time to look it up.) Defense of Biblical criticism was not helped by the revival at this time of the 'Christ-Myth' theory, suggesting that Jesus had never existed, a suggestion rebutted in England by the radical but independent F. C. Conybeare. William Horbury, "The New Testament", in Ernest Nicholson, A Century of Theological and Religious Studies in Britain (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003) p. 55 Zindler depends on secondary works and writes with the aim of proving the Christ-Myth theory, namely, the theory that the Jesus of history never existed. John T. Townsend, "Christianity in Rabbinic Literature", in Isaac Kalimi & Peter J. Haas, Biblical Interpretation in Judaism and Christianity (New York: T. & T. Clark, 2006) p. 150 The radical solution was to deny the possibility of reliable knowledge of Jesus, and out of this developed the Christ myth theory, according to which Jesus never existed as a historical figure and the Christ of the Gospels was a social creation of a messianic community. William R. Farmer, "A Fresh Approach to Q", in Jacob Neusner, Christianity, Judaism and Other Greco-Roman Cults, 4 (Leiden: Brill, 1975) p. 43 Negative as these [hyper-minimalist] conclusions appear, they must be strictly distinguished from the theories of the mythologists. According to the critics whom we may term minimalists, Jesus did live, but his biography is almost totally unknown to us. The mythologists, on the other hand, declare that he never existed, and that his history, or more exactly the legend about him, is due to the working of various tendencies and events, such as the prophetic interpretation of Old Testament texts, visions, ecstasy, or the projection of the conditions under which the first group of Christians lived into the story of their reputed founder. Maurice Goguel, "Recent French Discussion of the Historical Existence of Jesus Christ", Harvard Theological Review 19 (2), 1926, pp. 117–118 The Christ-Myth theory (that Jesus never lived) had a certain vogue at the beginning of this century but is not supported by contemporary scholarship. Alan Richardson, The Political Christ (London: SCM, 1973) p. 113 If this account of the matter is correct, one can also see why it is that the 'Christ-myth' theory, to the effect that there was no historical Jesus at all, has seemed so plausible to many... Hugo A. Meynell, An Introduction to the Philosophy of Bernard Lonergan (2nd ed.) (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1991) p. 166 [W]e have to explain the origin of Christianity, and in so doing we have to choose between two alternatives. One alternative is to say that it originated in a myth which was later dressed up as history. The other is to say that it originated with one historical individual who was later mythologized into a supernatural being. The theory that Jesus was originally a myth is called the Christ-myth theory, and the theory that he was an historical individual is called the historical Jesus theory. George Walsh, The Role of Religion in History (New Brunswick: Transaction, 1998) p. 58 The Jesus-was-a-myth school... argue[s] that there never was a Jesus of Nazareth, that he never existed. Clinton Bennett, In Search of Jesus: Insider and Outsider Images (New York: Continuum, 2001) p. 202 Though [Charles Guignebert] could not accept either the Christ myth theory, which held that no historical Jesus existed, or the Dutch Radical denial that Paul authored any of the epistles, Guignebert took both quite seriously. Robert M. Price, in Tom Flynn, The New Encyclopedia of Unbelief (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 2007) p. 372 As we have noted, some legendary-Jesus theorists argue that, while it is at least possible, if not likely, an actual historical person named Jesus existed, he is so shrouded in legendary material that we can know very little about him. Others (i.e, Christ myth theorists) argue that we have no good reason to believe there ever was an actual historical person behind the legend. Paul R Eddy & Gregory A. Boyd, The Jesus Legend: a Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007) p. 165 Price uncritically embraces the dubious methods and results of the Jesus Seminar, adopts much of the (discredited) Christ-Myth theory from the nineteenth century (in which it was argued that Jesus never lived), and so on. Craig A. Evans, Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 2006) p. 25 For as "extreme" a critic as Rudolf Bultmann, the existence of the historical Jesus is a necessity; and if historical criticism could successfully establish the "Christ-myth" theory, viz., that Jesus never really lived, Bultmann’s enture theological structure would be shaken. George Eldon Ladd, The New Testament and Criticism (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967) p. 15 And a recent attempt to revive the Christ myth theory (that Jesus was simply invented as a peg on which to hang the myth of a Savior God), hardly merits serious consideration. Reginald H. Fuller & Pheme Perkins, Who Is This Christ?: Gospel Christology and Contemporary Faith (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1983) p. 130 ...on the one hand, literal acceptance of everything in the New Testament as the veridical record of what happened, and, on the other, some form of Christ-myth theory which denies that there ever was a Jesus. But neither of these extreme positions stands up to scrutiny." John Macquarrie, The Scope of Demythologizing: Bultmann and His Critics (London: SCM, 1960) p. 93 But in contrast to the Christ-myth theories which proliferated at an earlier time, it would seem that today almost all reputable scholars do accept that Jesus existed and that the basic facts about him are well established. John Macquarrie, "The Humanity of Christ", in Theology, Vol. 74 (London: SPCK, 1971) p. 247 His published work on the Synoptic Problem had already contributed towards exploding the theory of the “Christ-myth”—that Jesus as a historical person never existed—by providing the two oldest records of His life to be genuine historical documents." George Seaver, Albert Schweitzer: The Man and His Mind (New York: Harper, 1955) p. 45 In Germany, England, Holland, America, and France, a group of scholars developed the hypothesis that Christ had never lived at all, the Christ-myth theory. Margaret Hope Bacon, Let This Life Speak: The Legacy of Henry Joel Cadbury‎ (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1987) p. 22 There have even been learned and intelligent men who have denied that Jesus ever existed: the so-called "Christ-myth" theory. Donald MacKenzie MacKinnon, Objections to Christian Belief (London: Constable, 1963) p. 67 JESUS CHRIST, MYTH THEORY OF. The theory that Jesus Christ never existed. Bill Cooke, Dictionary Of Atheism, Skepticism, & Humanism (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 2005) p. 278

Accepting compromise

It amazes me that prominent proponents of a theory can be ignored in the very definition of their own theory without it constituting a contravention of WP:V or WP:NPOV, but so be it. I will accept Proposal v9h, as the least-wrong of the versions on offer. Wdford (talk) 20:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

"Key arguments" are sorely "lacking"

Reading both articles for Historicity and the degrading title "Christ Myth Theory" several things are made clear.

The very definition of CMT as it own category of a "Theory" is not only unnecessary, it is inherently biased, as it implies that it is some sort of unified movement of any kind. There is no reason why this article can't be named "arguments against the historicity of jesus" instead.

The "Key arguments" shouldn't be lumped under the perspective of a single historian from the 1800s as the very article shows several other perspectives, many of which are a lot more current.

It is necessary to mention in this section the following facts, which if ignored will make the article biased by omission.

Just by reading both articles it is evident that all arguments claiming Christs existence to be unquestionable are either based on "arguments from authority", "arguments from popularity" or a "Historian's Fallacy" which pressuposes past historians to have been unbiased on the very assumption of historicity.

So much substance in both articles is devoted to such fallacies as arguments that bad science is shown to be the norm on the subject matter and this fact merits its own mention.

A strong case for the argument from silence that can be made simply by the fact that the alleged consensus about the historicity of jesus is almost entirely built on claims of its imperviousness, than on actual evidence.

Young earth creationists are rightfully considered to be "extremists" precisely because there is an insurmountable amount of evidence for evolution and the age of the universe.

"Mythicists" on the other hand are only presented with the writings of Josephus and Tacitus as the indefinite proof.

Consequentially it becomes very important to also document the evidence for forgery in Josephus and Tacitus writings, which, if true, would show clearly that other than a "scholar consensus" about something that if questioned would "prevent employment", the actual demonstrable basis for historicity isn't even half as ironclad as both articles make them out to be.

Finally, the quote used in "criticism"

"If we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."

Is not, in fact, criticism.

The emphasis should be on "as we should", which make it clear that "the same sort of criteria" should be applied, and the "existence of a mass of pagan personages as historical figures" should be questioned as well.

If there was an organized movement of "mythicists" they surely wouldn't object to implementing stronger criteria to the historicity of any "personages", those which questioned and manage to hold up to the criteria will remain historic and those that don't will not. That is actually the very definition of good science to begin with.

The two links below show excerpts from the book "Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled", which in turn offers a sourced compilation of evidence of forgery for both Josephus and Tacitus. http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm

I am sure there must be other sources out there that are worth using as well.

179.221.119.71 (talk) 00:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)KKDragonLord

Why do critics of myth theory say there's tons of evidence Jesus existed, but can't name any of it? 170.3.8.253 (talk) 14:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Biblical Scholars vs Prominent Atheists

I'm a rabid fan of both Dawkins and Hitchens, but neither of them gained their notoriety for biblical scholarship. Are they here more to add recognizable names to a list of scholars in the driest of dry fields? Or is the view more that their opinions, being heard by bigger audiences, are more likely to be widely held?

I'm not disputing the relevance of their popularity to the salience of their opinions in themselves. Nor do I dispute the advantage of showing opinions that are themselves (possibly) widely held, but when you boil it right down, Hitchens wasn't and Dawkins isn't a biblical scholar.

Considering the previous discussion here, I could easily see not wanting to touch anything just to keep the peace; but if discussion here CAN be civil, I'd be interested in seeing a bit of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JasCollins (talk • contribs) 08:46, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

The Christ Myth Theory has hardly any support among biblical scholars. Not that it is clear to me that the views of biblical scholars rather than historians should carry special weight on this topic. Whether Jesus existed or not is a historical question, but for whatever reasons real historians rarely discuss it. Martijn Meijering (talk) 10:14, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think Dawkins (who has said he thinks Jesus probably existed anyway) or Hitchens really belong in this article but others do and that is not something I feel strongly enough to fight about.Smeat75 (talk) 14:03, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I think Dawkins is mostly relevant since he is a respected scientist who considers the CMT credible, i.e. not fringe science. Martijn Meijering (talk) 15:41, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

The only credibility Dawkins has is in biology. In philosophy and ancient history, he's out of his depth and, therefore, not a reliable source However, I don't really think it's a big deal to have Dawkins/Hitchens mentioned in the article. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 19:40, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, all. I think Martijn Meijering's point is well made, and when (read if) I get some time, I'll try and find some more real historians with opinions--pro AND con. Ehrman and Carrier are both entertaining authors, but they they CAN'T be the only ones who have something to say. JasCollins (talk) 02:56, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Thomas Verenna

I have deleted a sentence referring to Thomas Verenna because it is unreferenced and self promoting. It is referenced only by a self published PDF file which appears to be a university term paper or internet forum post to which the link is broken.Burdenedwithtruth (talk) 12:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Self-published material like this doesn't belong in the article. That applies to the includiong of Ralph Ellis, that I've reverted. Dougweller (talk) 13:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

What about Joe Atwill? He was promoted by Richard Dawkins recently and his work has been reviewed by other mythicists? It is an important theory. He is mentioned as a mythicist author and his works are self published. A lot of things are only on the internet these days, such as Wikipedia. Is this not being anachronistic? I think both Atwill and Ellis should be mentioned because of the potential importance of their theories.Burdenedwithtruth (talk) 03:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia bias

why the hell is this an article when it's about a fringe theory? No serious historian actually believes Christ myth theory.--92.236.209.177 (talk) 13:57, 16 May 2014 (UTC)