Talk:Fusion power

Archives
/Archive_1 – 2002 - 2006 /Archive_2 – 2007 - 2010

Economics

The economics section is misleading in that it compares budget fusion research vs other research for one EU agency. The overall effect is that it seems like fusion is getting disproportionate funding when research for other fuel sources are funded through other agencies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.195.141.204 (talk) 08:52, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Error in figure?

It looks to me as if there is probably an error in the "IFE and MFE parameter space.svg" figure here, as the DT gain contours look wrong. There are five contours (labeled 1e-5 to 0.1) with a claimed spacing of 10× to the lower left, and then three (labeled 10 to 1000) at the upper right, also spaced 10×, but the "DT gain"=1 contour is missing. If it were present between 0.1 and 10, the spacing for just that one contour would be about half all the others before and after, so I think the labeling must be incorrect. Can one of our experts check this? Thanks. Wwheaton (talk) 15:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Balance of article

I'm a bit concerned the article doesn't fully balance tokamak and laser designs with due weight. Can someone take a look? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 15:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Solved it, I think - review? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 15:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Advantages

I have editted this section as follows:

- Used more precise in discussion of renewables and sustainables. Fusion is not renewable, but is effectively indefinite energy source. I also fixed the link to the paper documenting this long life.

- I moved up the discussion about no greenhouse gases and dependable power, as I think these are stronger than the next couple of arguments.

- I simplified the discussion on fusion and economies of scale. Fusion power stations would be large and require sites with cooling water, at least with current technologies. This will also limit the number of optimal fusion power sites. I can see arguments both for and against fusion economies of scale relative to other options. I have left the point, but reduced the claim as I am not entirely convinced and it is not presently defended by references.

- The discussion on desalination is also challengable. It is hard to see that the probable lack of fresh water this century in much of the world could be solved by a very expensive energy source. And if indeed desalination was feasible with expensive energy, it is not obvious why that would be an advantage for fusion, and not for a variety of other energy sources. Also, the concept that the process used to extract the fusion fuel would itself provide useful amounts of water seems to me to be irrelevant. The energy released from the fusion fuel would provide much more desalination power than the small amount of water possibly associated with fuel extraction. Again I have left the main point for now, but reduced the amount of discussion.

- I think there are some other advantages that might be raised here, but I have not yet done so. E.g. large (industrial) amounts of power, possible high conversion efficiencies in advanced fusion concepts, and ultimately possible role is space travel.

Gierszep (talk) 03:51, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Your edits show a more neutral point of view, which is good. Concerning the advanatages that are not pointed out yet, what role may fusing power bring for space travel? A better and contained energy source? Some current unmanned missions use fission nuclear power for on-board systems. I even wonder if SMART-1 didn't use such a power source for its ion thrusters, more specifically its Hall effect thruster, Snecma's PPS-1350.

I have changed the "citation needed" flag to a "fact" flag for the following passage:

Another aspect of fusion energy is that the cost of production does not suffer from diseconomies of scale. The cost of water and wind energy, for example, goes up as the optimal locations are developed first, while further generators must be sited in less ideal conditions. With fusion energy, the production cost will not increase much, even if large numbers of plants are built.

In fact, the point which is made here is not that some sites may or may not have as much water needed to cool the reactor (and some reactors don't even need water if I'm not mistaken) but more that wind turbines impact the actual wind, rendering the installation of wind turbines near other problematic, and idem for water energy plants which require a minimum of current to operate efficiently. In other words, you can build as many fusion plants as you want, the price of these plants shouldn't increase with regards to its location because the location just doesn't matter.

Xionbox^₪ 06:29, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

There's more to economies of scale than just real estate and resource quality. You'll see a theoretical increase in price(especially early on) due to skilled labor shortages, according to the basic economic theories. Nuclear engineers and technicians aren't cheap, and there are only so many. If we're willing to accept original research as a basis for statements in the article, you'll be faced with the real problem that the inverse can be claimed just as easily. Please keep the fact tag, as there's a reason WP:OR exists. Truth or falsehood has little to do with it. I also removed some of your change because of the tone and redundancy against the previous sentence. i kan reed (talk) 13:54, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

JT60, Q>1

The article lacks mention of the japanese JT60 tokamak, which operation lead to some outstanding achievements. As given on the JT60 project homepage http://www-jt60.naka.jaea.go.jp/english/jt60/project/html/history.html this reactor has already achieved *more* fusion output power than consumed power (Q>1) since 1996. In the paragraph "Current Status" the article just states "Several fusion D-T burning tokamak test devices have been built (TFTR, JET), but these were not built to produce more thermal energy than electrical energy consumed." It should be corrected, since this phrase sort of suggests, that Q>1 was never reached. In fact Q>1 *was* reached, but due to the fact that the machines were not built for such high power removal from their structures (as the quoted sentence from the article nearly correctly states), it was only sustained for short periods of time in order not to damage the machines.

Current Status updates please

Could use updates including Focus Fusion and Polywell with respective sources (Focus Fusion webpage and recovery.gov - the latter is just a step away from a peer reviewed journal, as the funding would dry up if the project goals are not demonstrated). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.3.28 (talk) 17:51, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Scientists claim that power from nuclear fusion is just 30 years away. That's kind of a running joke. (They claimed this back about in 1960, and were still claiming the same in 1990. I don't think they're so optimistic these days.)--71.38.171.80 (talk) 16:39, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Wires array.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Wires array.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 00:59, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

laser induced fusion energy

This press release from Sept 2009, starts with: "Attention is given to a rather shocking new discovery: NUCLEAR ENERGY WITHOUT RADIOACTIVITY".

Is this a topic that should be added to this article ? --POVbrigand (talk) 08:53, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

No. Or rather, the topic is already covered. Look at the section Fusion_power#p-11B_fuel_cycle, which links to Aneutronic_fusion#Residual_radiation_from_a_p.E2.80.9311B_reactor. Furthermore, a press release is not generally a reliable source, there is no sign that anyone else is paying attention to this, and the accuracy of the content is questionable. --Art Carlson (talk) 09:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. --POVbrigand (talk) 16:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Neutron reflection and absorbtion; waste reduction

Neutrons reflected into the plasma can be used up breeding Tritium from Lithium instead of activating the PFCs, the coolant or other materials behind. Does anyone know sources for materials and designs which achieve that kind of reflection, and about their efficiency?

1. Neutrons are hard to reflect.
2. You don't want lithium in your plasma because it will radiate away the energy.
3. The mean free path of neutrons in a fusion plasma must be millions of kilometers.

--Art Carlson (talk) 07:54, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, can radioactive isotopes be efficiently separated from non-radioactive isotopes in the aforementioned materials, limiting the amount of waste produced? Can these radioactive materials be in any way reused in the same facility, so that the don't need to leave the grounds and be deposited as waste.

Doomguy (talk) 17:21, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Recent edits

A lot of sourced material and associated citations seem to have been dropped from the article recently. On 24 December 2011 the article had 45 references (see [1]), but now the article has only 37 references ([2]).

A particular concern is that several important references, which helped to bring some balance to the article, are now missing (See Scientific American and New Scientist).

What is going on? Johnfos (talk) 20:43, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Have reverted edits by FT2, to restore sourced material and missing citations. Johnfos (talk) 04:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

LENR, etc?

I posted the same question in the list of fusion experiments page, but...

Is there any particular reason why the multitude of LENR experiments (MIT, NASA, Osaka University, DARPA, Navy SPAWAR, (Navy) NRL, Andrea Rossi, etc) aren't even given mention here as an experiment?

Barwick (talk) 13:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Bueller? Anybody? If you don't have any opposition, I'll work on putting together a short writeup about LENR experiments. Barwick (talk) 15:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Fusion as economic energy source

I've been reading recently about entropy and remembered reading once about how inefficient energy wise the fusion process is in the sun. Maybe I'm been a complete porridge head here as I'm not a scientist, but how is fusion as an net energy source not a violation of the second law thermodynamics. I understand with fission fuel the work was put in during the supernova implosion but I'm confused with regards to fusion fuel.

W66w66 (talk) 19:49, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

It's the Big Bang. The universe started with essentially infinite temperature, i.e., zero entropy. For the most part, it remained in thermal equilibrium while it was expanding, including a soup of protons and neutrons. But that soup cooled down a bit too fast for all those particles to glob together into helium. Only 25% of them made it. The rest are left over as protons that would like to form helium, if someone would give them a second chance. Art Carlson (talk) 08:01, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

The energy isn't coming from nowhere, it's coming from the matter being fused; note that there is an actual mass difference between the products pre-fusion and post. The difference in mass is what we get as energy. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:28, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

It's also meaningless to talk about the energy efficiency of the sun. Efficient at what? Making light? Making heat? Emitting charged particles? In general energetic terms, it's absolutely 100% efficient, just like everything else in the universe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.123.14.50 (talk) 21:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

There is a serious point to be made: Einstein predicted that matter can be converted to energy, and vice versa. For matter to becomes energy, its atomic structure must be simplified or 'milked' (as in fission). To create a compound from two elements (say hydrogen and oxygen) a violent combustion (bang) occurs. To split water into its components, that same energy is absorbed (certainly in electrolysis maybe even (as up to now) in nuclear fusion reactors - ¿who knows?).

In the sun, combining four (elemental) hydrogen atoms into one helium atom may well absorb more power than the reaction produces (but, a there is lots of matter in the sun, ¿is this important?). Almost as big and energetic is the military secrecy issue that surrounds fusion research - may that perhaps indicate that the huge public investment in 'clean fusion' is bit like seeking the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow (an activity hardly unknown in human affairs as in The South Sea Company or, the rather more recent 2007 bust and its subsequent real estate bubbles for similar scams - but then, as a Pensioner, I have seen quite a few public confidence tricks, so ¿maybe I am legally entitled to have become a cynic as to the viability of this process?) Timpo (talk) 14:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Your first paragraph, I don't know what you are saying. In your second paragraph you claim there is Military secrecy around fusion. I take it then that you don't know about real fusion research nor do you know any fusion researchers. Please remember this isn't a WP:FORUM and posts should be about improving this article. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:36, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Kir Komrik links

These links have been added under "External links" four times now, once by Special:Contributions/75.61.203.110, twice by Special:Contributions/75.247.196.89, and once by Special:Contributions/75.208.86.211:

• Twenty-One Castle Mike Twenty-One Castle Mike by Kir Komrik under commission of [name withheld] Marine, LLC.
• Twenty-One Castle Mike Diagrams Twenty-One Castle Mike diagrams by Kir Komrik under commission of [name withheld] Marine, LLC.

These links are a violation of a number of the content guidelines specified under WP:LINKSTOAVOID, in particular

1. Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article.

2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting.

and especially

11: Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority. (This exception for blogs, etc., controlled by recognized authorities is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for people.)

The editor adding these links (presumably), left me this message at User talk:75.208.86.211:

Art -

I've read the policies here and there is no policy violation for these links, nor do I see why you denominated it a "crank" website. You are vandalizing legitimate links, please knock it off.

I have reverted this edit twice, and will do so again, but it would be better if other editors were also involved. Art Carlson (talk) 22:50, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

I just removed these links again. I should make it clear that there are a number of reasons they should not be included, but the most straightforward one is point 11 of WP:LINKSTOAVOID: They link to personal web pages of a person who is neither recognized as an authority nor otherwise notable. Art Carlson (talk) 16:30, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if I'm responding in the correct place and space, but in any case, I will grant you that the policy application is necessarily subjective. However, there are references within the article to peer reviewed, mainstream research regarding traditional tokamak fusion. So, that policy is not violated. As for factual inaccuracy, if you could point out some mistatement of facts it might advance the conversation since I can't find any, nor can hundreds of other readers. The part about blogs is surprising because I see links from wikipedia "all the time" to blogs. So, it isn't clear to me how that is being applied. But let me say this, if an article happens to be served up in the domain space of a blog, should that really disqualify it by itself? Finally, anyone who deletes links to this article without realizing what they are deleting is harming the advancement of research in fusion power. Not all research is published in traditional peer-reviewed material when corporate America is obssessed with trade secrets (and there is a reason why this was published in this manner). Furthermore, I cannot provide all of the information I would like to for the reader because I am under obligation of a non-disclosure agreement. I really think someone competent in the field of magnetic tokamak fusion should read the article and vet it as a peer review might do, because I believe you are making a mistake by deleting these links. I understand that you have a valid interest in maintaining site credibility but if you take this too far you are truncating knowledge in an unnatural and myopic manner. Thank you, Kir Komrik — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.210.255.194 (talk) 19:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is the correct place to respond, and thank you for doing so. Whether or not you think it is reasonable, the policy is that blogs are not considered to be a reliable source. If you think an exception should be made in this case, the burden of proof is on you to convince the other editors of that. The purpose of Wikipedia is to hold a summary of notable information from all branches of knowledge. Its job is not to advance the research of fusion power or to promote any particular ideas, no matter how good they are. If you want to include your ideas here, you must first attract significant attention to them on the outside. Once other people start writing about your ideas, then they can be discussed in this article. (I've tried twice to look at your article, but I got bogged down. It lacks a decent summary.) Art Carlson (talk) 20:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

:: Thank you for the response. Overall, I can only say, "fair enough". I will work on a better summary and wait until it percolates up in google. But I can tell you this, this is a real program funded by real serious money worked on by real physicists who are real convinced a major breakthrough has occurred that rests squarely on the considerable amounts of research previously in magnetohydrodymanics and tokamaks. Unfortunately, it is being researched by a very secretive industry. The sad truth is that gobs of money (literally billions) can be thrown on something like this privately when public projects like ITER get nothing by comparison. I am in a position to discuss some aspects in public and I will do that in hope of garnering the interest you referenced - kk Art Carlson (talk) 20:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.210.255.194 (talk)

Ecat mention

I've shortened the paragraph below to one sentence. Suffers from recentism, no independent source and conjecture. I left one sentence sourced with the study... unsure of its validity and moreover its notability. - RoyBoy 02:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

However, recent research into low energy nuclear reactions (cold fusion) has led to the creation of a device called the Ecat developed by Andrea Rossi. The Ecat has been independently tested and the results point to excess heat greater than can be described by chemical means. The mainstream media and scientific community still for the most part refuse to acknowledge that tests have taken place.

The first link was to the Ecat website where the claim is made. The second was to where it was third party tested. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:98.159.74.193&redirect=no) you wrote that "Wikipedia avoids giving coverage to new science / technology unless it is published in peer-reviewed journals and/or receives 3rd-party coverage." The third party test would go under the or. I would reccomend leaving the mention as you have changed it (not removing it completely) except with the addition of a cite to the Ecat website where readers can see where the claim is initially made and a mention within the one sentence to differentiate between the initial claim and the third party test. - User: 98.159.74.193

Ecat.com is a commercial website (selling a product), it cannot be associated with the Fusion article with notability in question. To clarify, a 3rd-party test isn't the same as 3rd-party coverage. By coverage, I mean a truly independent publication / organization verifies the technology and mechanism; equivalent to this would be peer-review of a 3rd-party test confirming the fusion reaction. After reviewing the 3rd party test, their conclusion clearly states an "unknown reaction" is at work. It does not confirm, or even hypothesize fusion is involved. Let us know the results of future tests, for now everything has to be removed. Sorry. I would love to see Ecat succeed, small sustainable reactors are very exciting. - RoyBoy 04:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This article in Forbes shows there is some coverage, however I just found the main E-Cat article, called Energy Catalyzer and the 3rd party test is extensively discussed Talk:Energy_Catalyzer#draft_for_test_section. - RoyBoy 05:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Yep, cold fusion only gets weight in this article because sources discuss cold fusion and fusion power together in a prominent way (WP:ONEWAY), mentioning the E-cat, a proposed device of undisclosed mechanism, in this article is undue, IRWolfie- (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Did Eddington really notice a discrepancy in solar mass?

Hi Timpo,

I noticed that at 13:42 hours on the 30th of July 2013 you added to the Fusion power page the statement: "However, [Arthur Eddington] detected a small (0.7%) difference in the actual solar mass compared to its theoretical value,..."

Could you supply a reference for that statement? - Fartherred (talk) 02:34, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Fartherred,

I heard it on a BBC science radio program which is no longer available. I have not been able to find a 'respectable journal' ref, but generally BBC material is well researched and a Duckduckgo search seems to confirm its validity. Are there any astrophysicists editing who could help? Timpo (talk) 08:05, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I think we will reach the facts before long. - Fartherred (talk) 17:36, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

A helium atom is 0.7% less heavy than the four hydrogen atoms out of which it could be made by fusion. I think Timpo heard about this on the radio and thought the statement referred to the mass of the sun. In any case there is no reference for the statement about a discrepancy in solar mass and Timpo admits a lack of technical knowledge in the area. I think it is safest to delete the unsupported statement until someone comes up with a reference to support it. - Fartherred (talk) 21:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Reorganization of history section by date

People, this history section is a mess. I purpose we restructure it by date. If I am ambitious enough, I might even do it in 5 year increments. If something happened in 1966, then put it in the 1960 to 1950 decade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiHelper2134 (talk • contribs) 16:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Ok. It is a little better, but still a mess. Stuff can be consolidated. Also, doing it by date, moves this section into a "history" section and not a "this-is-how-it-works" section. I saw lots of physical mechanisms described. However, if it is in the history section, it ought to be a who, what and when, with a reference. This still needs more cleaning up, more references and more details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiHelper2134 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Atom / Nuclei

There is a general mix between nuclei and atom in this article, the 'Mechanism' section is especially prone to this with phrases such as "To fuse atoms you must overcome the repulsive Coulomb force. This is an electrostatic force caused by two positive nuclei (containing protons) coming together". This is using the word atom in the 1950s popular science sense combined with the more appropriate word nuclei.

I think that most of the mentions of atoms in this article should be nuclei. It needs a initial clarification saying what the relation between the nucleus and a atom is maybe with a quick mention of ionisation states but it is a important distinction and should not be allowed to get messy. Mtpaley (talk) 00:37, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Colloquial Terminology & Non-expert phrasing

There seems to be a lot of colloquial terminology on this page, but I don't know enough about the topic to be confident in my edits. I made some edits yesterday, but sections like the one quoted below strike me as though they were written by someone who either is not an expert in the field or by someone whose English is not particularly good.

"If the atoms hit head on, fusion is more likely. Cross sections for many different fusion
reactions were measured mainly in the 1970s using particle beams.[4] A beam of species A
was fired at species B at different speeds, and the amount of neutrons coming off was measured.
Neutrons are a key product of fusion reactions. These nuclei are flying around in a hot cloud,
with some distribution of velocities."

--68.15.61.2 (talk) 01:00, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I originally wrote that section. It has been modified a little. I could have used fancy words to say the same thing... but my focus has always been on simple words to explain complex stuff. There is an equation to predict the fusion energy rate of a fully ionized gas bouncing around. The text for this is Lyman J. Spitzers book: "The physics of fully ionized gases" but there is also a good explanation in the first chapter of Azenti's (sp?) book on ICF. The equation is based on: (1) the angle of impact (2) the fuel being fused (3) the relative velocity of impact (4) the energy released by the reaction. This is for individual particles - but we tend see the equation written for a large cloud, where everything has to be averaged over the energy/velocity distribution.

The "Fusibility" is known as the cross section. It is specific for this nuclei hitting that nuclei. Measuring cross sections was a major undertaking, and a import early step in fusion research. I am not totally familiar with all the work that went into that. I do know it was done with particle beams and I know that george miley did some of this work.

Velocity distributions do vary. People have models for different situations. For example electrons in a beam, tend to have very tight distributions. Beams come up in allot of places in fusion research, ions or electrons can be injected into some magnetic confinement field... people talk about distributions morphing from "beam" to "bell" or "maxwellian" to "Non-maxwellian". At the end of the day, all these models blow when compared to real, actual, hard, data. That is why I get skeptical with highly theoretical papers.

Bottom line: What is the problem with clear simple words? I think experts hide their ignorance behind terms.

WikiHelper2134 (talk) 15:35, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Introduction

In the introduction, it is stated that the term "fusion power" is similar to the term "steam power", but then goes on to say that useful energy would likely be extracted by heating water to produce steam. Wouldn't a better analogue be a current source of heat for steam-turbine power generation, e.g. coal/oil/natural gas? The sentence is still useful, to draw a contrast with wind or hydroelectric power generation, which do not rely on heating their working fluid.