Talk:Nazi salute

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

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Hitler salute → Nazi salute — This article deals with both the "Sieg Heil" and "Heil Hitler" topic. —Mootros (talk) 10:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

How nice to pretend there was any discussion. Lars T. (talk) 01:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup: towards a better/good article

We should discuss what needs to be cleaned up. If there's no discussion, I'll remove the tag in a day or two--Work permit (talk) 01:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Good idea! Mootros (talk) 11:03, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Here a quick assessment, open to further suggestions:

"Description" needs clarification and more details. (If you are able to read German have a look at the German wikidpedia to get an idea)

Do you have a link to the article? Needless to say, we'd need sources.--Work permit (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

[[1]] Actually, there is less than I thought there was. But what there is (unreferenced) here [[2]] sounds a bit more accurate. I.e. that it was expected to use the salute in day-to-day interaction and only on later (when?) people where "penalised" when they did not comply. Two robust looking references (but not text citation), and one very interesting weblink (verbatum from Soldatenzeitung, 1944) are there:

Karl Prause: Deutsche Grußformeln in neuhochdeutscher Zeit, Breslau 1930. (Älteste/erste Sekundärliteratur zu diesem Thema)

Tilmann Allert: Der Deutsche Gruß. Geschichte einer unheilvollen Geste. Eichborn Berlin, Berlin 2005, ISBN 3-8218-5761-7

http://www.ns-archiv.de/system/kultur/deutscher-gruss/

Mootros (talk) 10:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"Origins and adoption" needs some copy editing through and liking in the last paragraph in the main narrative. A 5-10% reduction of this section could be considered.

I'd agree with copyediting that still stays close to the sources. I happen to think the length is fine, its the other sections that need expanding--Work permit (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"From 1933 to 1945" needs a substantial input, especially on the relation to everyday live... the gradual changes/ adoption in the 12 years... the fines, later imprisionment.. counter strategies.. etc.

Would be great. Tillman is a good source--Work permit (talk)

I've just added a couple of paragraphs on "ordinary life."--Work permit (talk) 23:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"Sieg Heil" needs to be made more relevant; this section is very unfocused.

Agree, including its origins, etc. TO be expected since the original "sieg heil" article was badly sourced and not very coherent--Work permit (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"After 1945" needs to be expanded on the use by neo-Nazis, plus convictions, or attempts to do so.

It's a bit of a slippery slope, how do we distinguish between "neo-fascists" and "neo-nazi's"? There is an article on the roman salute that addresses fascist movements other then the nazis.--Work permit (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Not sure here. I think roman salute misses the point with the lengthy section "Adoption by Fascists", and even worth "Post-war use". This is a retro-fitting of history (what is "Roman" about this?) By closer examination, perhaps we need to move into the direction of Salute_(Nazi_Germany), Nazi_salute_(Italy). Or move the Italy section in here and make the intro more relevant to this. What do you think? There might than also something which might not fit into such categories: http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_20057210.aspx

Also something a bit more straight forward, the recent developments in Switzerland:

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_20057210.aspx

Again thanks for your good effort and motivation. Cheers, Mootros (talk) 10:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Mootros (talk) 09:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch, StGB)

Per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. And so I've added Tilman to back up the primary source--Work permit (talk) 06:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Good! 217.171.129.74 (talk) 19:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Axis countries

After expanding the Roman salute article and doing more research, the section on "other countries" belongs, imho, in the Roman salute article and not the Nazi salute one. The salute makes a transition from film to Italian fascism. There is no clear delineation between its adoption by the Nazis and other fascist movements. There is much to expand on in the Nazi salute article on its use in Germany alone, there is no need to broaden it to other movements here rather then the other article. As a reminder, Fascist salute redirects to Roman salute, as it should.--Work permit (talk) 10:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

OK! Mootros (talk) 19:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous engraving from the Illustrated Exhibitor Magazine dated 1852

“ There is an anonymous engraving that depicts raised arm gestures during the installation of an ancient German king. According to the The Illustrated Exhibitor and Magazine of Art (1852) that shows this engraving to illustrate an article about the investiture of early medieval kings, the reconstruction of such ceremonies among the Gauls and Germans was undertaken by the French historian Augustin Thierry. The 1989 edition of the Brockhaus Encyclopedia repeats the claims of a Germanic origin for the salute, stating that "the Nazi salute was derived from the Late Germanic Time".

An installation ceremony of an early German king, in The Illustrated Exhibitor and Magazine of Art (1852), based on the work of a French historian

”

I removed the photo and reference to "anonymous engraving from the Illustrated Exhibitor Magazine dated 1852, illustrating an article about the investiture of early medieval kings". If anyone actually has this article from 1852, lets discuss its contents.--Work permit (talk) 03:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Worthy of discussion. FWIW, I've gone through the related Roman salute article found that statements with referenced footnotes were not consistent with the references (specifically clark). I cleaned them up. And so I think its worth while to question this particular reference. I have no access to this 150 year old manuscript from a defunct journal. What exactly does Augustin Thierry say in it? And what should we make of it? Is the Illustrated Exhibitor and Magazine of Art a defintive source worthy of mention? Is highlighting an "an anonymous engraving" giving too much wp:weight? All other sources in this article are readily availble secondary sources directly addressing the issue at hand. Except for this source.

I also deleted the statement from the "Brockhaus Encyclopedia". It is a Tertiary source and should not be relied as a reliable source when secondary sources conflict. To quote

Our policy: Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources. Some tertiary sources may be more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others. Wikipedia articles may not be used as tertiary sources in other Wikipedia articles, but are sometimes used as primary sources in articles about Wikipedia itself.

Access to these UK/ Ireland libraries?

Does any one have access to these libraries in the UK/ Ireland and would be willing to check the above mentioned article about the investiture of early medieval kings, in the Illustrated Exhibitor and Magazine of Art (1851): Mootros (talk) 16:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• British Library, London, VOL. 1, 1852- 2, 1852 *A=1: Humanities and Social Sciences, St Pancras Reading Rooms PP.1803.E
• University of London - ULRLS, Senate House Library STACK SERVICE PR Z Vol. 1-Vol. 2, Published in 1852 only
• National Library of Scotland, Edinburgh, General Reading Room (George IV Bridge); stored in George IV Bridge K.208.a ; Reference use in NLS
• Trinity College Dublin Santry Book Repository C.c.39,40
• National Art Library (V&A Museum); Periodicals Store PP.8.QDW
• Cambridge University Libraries UL: Order in West Rm (in Rare Bks if pre1850) Not borrowable L900.b.63.1; UL: Order in West Rm (in Rare Bks if pre1850) Not borrowable L900.b.63
• Oxford, Bodleian Library Bookstack Johnson d.4774 In place 2 v. in 1; Bodleian Library Bookstack Per. 170 d.17 In place 2 v. in 1

A copy of the article about the investiture of early medieval kings, could be put on wikimedia because copyright will have expired: "This applies to the United States, Australia, the European Union and those countries with a copyright term of life of the author plus 70 years "

The Portuguese Consul General incident in Hamburg

Is it known when this happened? Mootros (talk) 11:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

From the source it's not clear. Presumably before the effective disbandment of the SA in july 1934.--Work permit (talk) 19:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The SA wasn't disbanded in 1934, just decapitated. It continued with a large membership, though not its former political power, until wartime conscription thinned its numbers; the SA provided the principal muscle for Kristallnacht in 1938. Solicitr (talk) 16:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Origins

I've provided more direct statements, and used more specific page references, for the description of the origins of the gesture. In general, references shouldn't span many pages, since that leads to wp:synth. I've addressed the art work citations, and will address the plays and films shortly.--Work permit (talk) 04:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Parentheses mismatch in the first sentence

.

 Done Lars T. (talk) 16:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

After 1945

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/02/mongolia-far-right

Falange Española

I think it's important to say in the article that before 1945 this salute was used in Spain like an "official" salute in the Franco's regime. People said "Arriba España" when they did it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.32.58.221 (talk) 19:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Please read the top of the article

This article is about the fascist salute used in Germany. For fascist salutes in other countries, see Roman salute.

--Work permit (talk) 02:06, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Move?

Nazi salute is probably the most popular term for the NSDAP's saluate, but the official term for it was the "German greeting". Would anybody object if the page were moved to that title?--A.S. Brown (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes, Germans would, I for one. This would mean following a line of Nazi propaganda. The German greeting is Guten Tag (North), Grüß Gott (South), Guten Morgen (everywhere, though in the evening it naturally becomes humourous). --77.4.72.90 (talk) 10:43, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I believe that moving the Nazi salute to "German greeting" would be offensive to many German editors (me included). Plus, the name could create the perception that the salute is still common among Germans. --Der rikkk (talk) 17:42, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Goebbel's list

In the 'Sieg Heil' paragraph, I found a mention of a list Goebels made of prominent Nazi-members. Although the list Goebbels made is probably a fact, it is totally unrelevant as a text in the place where it was entered. It doesn't even have a reference to the 'Sieg Heil' greeting in it. It was probably meant to be somewhere else, perhaps a different article (?). I therefore removed it, a week ago, to improve the logic of the whole text, but an unnamed reader has reversed my edit.

Why? I don't think its inclusion is useful (there). — Preceding unsigned comment added by CLA (talk • contribs) 13:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. A second agenda seems at work here. I found exactly the same sentence "In 1944 Joseph Goebbels made a now infamous list with "irreplaceable artists" called the Gottbegnadeten list with people such as" ....etc. inserted in other articles, e.g. Nazism and cinema (appropriately, more or less), Joseph Goebbels (also appropriately, I'd say) and Hermann Göring (out of place) - and of course here. Was this mainly meant to unfavourably highlight someone's name as often as possible? --CLA (talk) 18:09, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

It appears to be banned sock-master User:Pierlot, who is solely obssessed with adding pictures of and references to the German actor Johannes Heesters on as many pages as possible. Far from unfavourably highlighting his name, I think the editor wants to elevate him to the level of Strauss as an indespensible major artist. Paul B (talk) 12:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Anders Breivik

Is the Breivik's salute far-right should be included in the post 1945?

Anders Breivik just far-right salutes while he entered court in Oslo, Norway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.232.5.89 (talk) 16:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

No direct link to this article. Mootros (talk) 10:21, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Olympics???

"During the opening ceremony for the London 2012 Olympics, a German dignitary jokingly raised his arm in a Nazi salute in pride, as his country's athletes arrived in the stadium. This greatly amused Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall and London mayor Boris Johnson, and also sparked much entertainment in the social media.[65]"

This is POV since there is no evidence that it was "jokingly in a Nazi-salute" the article itself indicates that the Hitlergruss is right-handed and there seems to be nothing to attribute any motive to than one dubious "humorous" news story. So I'm deleting iton teh grounds of POV and probably casual racism at the base of the joke and assumptions. 94.197.127.186 (talk) 09:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Heil

Prior to fascism it was a common greeting in Bavaria and Austria. Mostly in Germany the supporters of the Greater German solution used it after the victory of Prussia in order to show that Austria was part of Germany as well and it always was connected to politics. In western Austria however, it is still common esp. in rural areas. (Heil!, Berg heil!, Schi heil!...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.46.163.139 (talk) 23:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Although it is not an English word, the word "heil" is included in the English translations. This only works for readers who already know that it means "hail", with which it is cognate. I propose to amend it to "hail" in the English translations: "Heil Hitler!", "Heil, my leader!" and "Heil victory!". Any thoughts? AlanS1951 (talk) 10:22, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Heil Hitler!

I read somewhere that Hitler himself disliked being greeted with "Heil Hitler!" because he didn't want to talk about himself in the third person, and instead wanted to be greeted with "Heil, mein Führer!" to which he would reply with simply "Heil!". But what's the distinction here? What other Führers could there have been? What would have stopped Hitler from replying to "Heil Hitler!" with simply "Heil!"? JIP | Talk 14:49, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Adding "Mein Führer" ("My Leader") restates an implied bond of personal loyalty and lasting submission to the Leader - compare the use of "the/our dear Leader" in North Korea. The name Hitler would not have made that point. 83.254.154.164 (talk) 23:55, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Military Use

The traditional military salute was not permitted when not wearing headgear - in common with most armies (the USA being a notorious exception). That does not mean that "all salutes performed bareheaded,...made the Nazi salute de facto mandatory in most situations". Apart from the poor English, the logic is also flawed. If not wearing a uniform headgear - or other headgear - there is no salute given. The Nazi salute is entirely voluntary is such cases.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:34, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Satirical Use

I remember seeing footage in one episode of the 1970s documentary series 'The World at War' of a dance in England, probably before the war got serious in May 1940, in which the dancers were encouraged to give the Nazi salute as a gesture of mockery. There was a song that went with this footage, of which I only remember the words 'Not to love the Fuhrer is a big disgrace, so we'll Heil, Heil, right in the Fuhrer's face!' Perhaps worth a mention, if anyone is interested in digging for the reference.

Djwilms (talk) 07:06, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Hezbollah nazi salute

I have my doubts about the salute of Hezbollah is equal to the Nazi salute. The Hezbollah salute comes from Shiite customs and is a salute for Imam Hussain, he was an important Shiite figure who had his right hand cut off: "http://www.hujjat.org/index.php?option=com_content&id=166:imam-husain-a-murdered&Itemid=100013"

People visiting the grave of Imam Hussain each year also salute Hussain using this gesture: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=835045769870545

Thus i don't think Hezbollah fits in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spenk01 (talk • contribs) 16:26, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Ku Klux Klan salute

Some American KKK groups use a Nazi-style salute with the left arm raised to a 45-degree angle with the hand extended. Is that salute, if identified with Klan activity, legal in Germany?Pbrower2a (talk) 19:21, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

'Occupation of Czechoslovakia'

The photo caption about the 'German occupation of Czechoslovakia, 1938' (complete with a link to the Wikipedia article on the occupation) strikes me as misleading, for it implies that the salute is being given by native Czechs or Slovaks, supposedly weeping for joy at the invasion of their country. There were of course pro-Nazi Czechs and Slovaks, but this picture must surely have been taken during the Reich's annexation of German-speaking Sudetenland in 1938, as the shop signs in the background are in German only. The rest of Czechoslovakia wasn't occupied until the following year. In fact, given the German signs, perhaps the photograph isn't from Czechoslovakia at all but from Austria, which was also annexed in 1938. I mention all this because knowledge of what actually happened all those years ago is starting to fade, and I feel Wikipedia should try to preserve historical accuracy.92.111.250.34 (talk) 17:43, 1 May 2015 (UTC)