Talk:Syrian civil war

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Turkey Support of ISIS

Infobox should have Turkey as supported of ISIS, there are undeniable evidences:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/links-between-turkey-isis-now-195700510.html http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/18/turkey-cut-islamic-state-supply-lines-erdogan-isis Dafranca (talk) 20:11, 19 November 2015 (UTC) http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/19/turkeys-informal-isis-support 179.105.82.13 (talk) 16:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

You received no response, and below you a separate discussion took place about whether Turkey should be listed under support of Kurds, somehow the deccision was made to continue listing Turkey as a Kurdish support. This article like so much of wikipedia when it comes to anything controversial in geopolitics, its essentially laughable and worthless pro-USA propaganda. Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Qatar are at the very least NOT in favor of the Kurds, and a strong case can be made to list all 3 states as being more or less with ISIS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.45.52.222 (talk) 04:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Douma massacre page, call for input...

2015 Douma market air strikes, call for input/edits to get article in shape. Rename to 2015 Douma market massacre?

Turkey on same side as the Kurds?

Erdogan's "air force has mostly bombed the Kurds" rather than ISIS, according to "The Economist". Why are they on the same side in the infobox? Esn (talk) 03:42, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

• Excellent point; it makes no sense to include them on the same side. They should go in the opposition column. DylanLacey (talk) 09:26, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

They're in the "coalition", though, and separation with a line should be enough. Other groups in the same columns have fought as well (FSA, Nusra, etc.). FunkMonk (talk) 09:40, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

What is actually happening should take precedence over what is theoretically happening. Turkey supports the Sunni rebels and opposes the Syrian Kurds. Esn (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

So you'll remove Turkey from the coalition? FunkMonk (talk) 16:29, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

As little sense as it makes, it makes less sense to remove Turkey from the coalition it is officially part of. I suggest we throw in a footnote and leave Turkey in column 4. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:53, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Depends on which Kurds - the infographic here is pretty good at explaining a complex situation. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33690060 Legacypac (talk) 23:31, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Let's at least find a solution that does not involve splitting the coalition. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 15:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Turkey and PKK are not allies, but opponents. Turkey and YPG, are not allies. Rojava and Turkey are not allies either. YPG has close ties with PKK, a lot of the YPG people, are saying that they are the same people, and it is from the conflict with Turkey that they have gained their experience. PKK and Turkey are opponents for 40 years now. In addition even now, Turkey is attacking PKK in Iraq and Turkey and PKK is attacking Turkey, in Turkey. It is POV to add Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK and Turkey in the same alliance. I will post a few images that show the, imprisoned in Turkey, leader and founder of PKK in banners, flags and houses of the YPG.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/files/live/sites/almonitor/files/images/almpics/2013/10/ypgocalan.jpg http://www.davidmeseguer.com/wp-content/uploads/Asayis2.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8b9sdEVnfow/VYv9x7L-HFI/AAAAAAAAASI/jy5hvwXb1Ko/s1600/ku3.jpg.

Rojava is YPG, BF is YPG plus FSA, PKK is PKK, so there are not allies with Turkey. Adding Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK and Turkey as allies, will find, neither Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK and their sources, nor, the Turkish government and its sources, to agree with.

You can add the European and North American countries plus Australia in the same side with Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK as well as FSA, but from there and on you need to check more, about who to add, and its relation with them Ron1978 (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Now it became even more POV than before, since in the same alliance a part have being named Democratic forces, with allies all the Sunni Islamic organizations, and in the same alliance you also find PKK and Turkey, which are not allies but opponents. I suggest the following:

In one column to add the NPF and its allies, something which is clear. In another to add the Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK-Iraqi Kurdistan. Keep on mind that those, are allies neither with the Islamic organizations nor the Turks. In another the FSA and its allies. FSA has some Islamic allies. In another the US-led coalition. If you prefer to add the coalition in the same side with Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK-Iraqi Kurdistan, then it is NPOV only if it contains the countries that are allies with and not opponents. In another any Islamic groups that are not allies with the FSA. In another Isis.

Keep on mind, that the main combatants are the NPF, the Rojava-BF-YPG-PKK-Iraqi Kurdistan, the FSA, the Islamic groups and Isis. Those are the ones that is NPOV to have the infobox based on them. Ron1978 (talk) 00:11, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I count 6 columns in that suggestion. That is too many. Forget that Turkey and Kurds in Turkey are fighting. In the context of the SYRIAN CIVIL WAR Turkey is in the NATO/EU American led group. That group is fighting against ISIL and (politically) Assad. Most of the NATO/EU support has been coordinated with the Kurds. So we have it right, within the context of a complex situation. Legacypac (talk) 06:04, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Turkey has openly admitted to intentionally shelling the YPG in Syria, acc. to the BBC. You're making it seem like Turkey is only fighting the PKK in Turkey, when in fact they are attacking U.S. allied Kurds in Syria. DylanLacey (talk) 12:54, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I am just suggesting the 6 columns based on what is going on. If anyone else agree on that, you can tell it here and then we can proceed. From there and onwards, anyone can add anything that he/she wants, with the appropriate sources. DylanLacey you are right that Turkey has shelled the YPG and that BBC said it. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34645462 I haven't disagreed with that. I have just said that Turkey is at war with PKK, I haven't denied anything else. Both you and everyone else, are welcome to add any sources claiming anything, in the case Ron1978 (talk) 16:36, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

The template lists them PYD & Turkey as allies, but in fact Turkish Army have targeted PYD positions in Syria. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-hits-pyd-twice-for-crossing-euphrates-pm.aspx?pageID=238&nID=90385&NewsCatID=352 Kavas But historically and as in Iraq, Peshmerga is an ally of Turkey. (talk) 23:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

A fifth column should be formed to exclude the CJTF–OIR from the Rojava in the Main belligerents table, and to exlude world leaders from being listed under Rojava in the Commanders and leaders table. -Dominator1453 (talk) 05:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Including Turkey and the Kurds in the same column is the height of absurdity; however, adding a fifth column is not the answer as the infobox is complicated enough as it is. DylanLacey (talk) 08:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Turkey is fighting the Kurds in Iraq, not in Syria, so no, it isn't that absurd. They're good at playing divide and conquer with the Kurds and Arabs. The Kurds are not an unified group in any way, they have many internal conflicts. FunkMonk (talk) 13:08, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Are you unaware of the fact that Turkey has bombed the Syrian Kurds multiple times? This very discussion contains sources outlining this. DylanLacey (talk) 01:53, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Nusra (and other Salafist non-ISIS groups) has attacked FSA multiple times. They're in the same column. Also, Turkey did let Peshmerga through the border to enter the fighting in Kobane. So it's not clear cut at all. Furthermore, Turkey is cosy with the Kurdish government in North Iraq, which looks the other way when they bomb PKK fighters there. FunkMonk (talk) 01:59, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Counting Iran's casualties

Perhaps someone with more knowledge could shed some light on this situation. Currently, the infobox displays the number of Iranian KIA as 146. However, this excludes the approximately 385 Afghan and Pakistani troops who died fighting for the IRGC. How, exactly, should we categorize the Afghan and Pakistani fighters? They appear to be in a similar situation to the French Foreign Legion, and so should count as part of the Iranian military:

• They get paid salaries by the Iranian military. Specifically they get between $500 to $1,000 a month, plus naturalization papers.
• They undergo training in Iran, and are equipped by the IRGC.
• They are led by IRGC officers.
• They wear something like a uniform, even though their uniforms usually don't have IRGC insignia.
• Some organizations (such as the Levantine Group and Washington Institute) flat-out refer to the two "auxiliary brigades" (Fatimiyun brigade [Afghans] and Zaynabiyun brigade [Pakistanis]) as IRGC formations/Iranian operatives.
• On the other hand, sometimes (but not always) Iran denies that the Afghans are IRGC members, and they're apparently not considered citizens at the times of their deaths.
• On the other other hand, they're still given state funerals involving uniformed IRGC personnel.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/31/world/meast/syria-afghan-fighter/ http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/shiite-combat-casualties-show-the-depth-of-irans-involvement-in-syria
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/irans-afghan-shiite-fighters-in-syria
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSkrFNBXAAAxnT6.jpg:large

So? Should the number of Iranian military KIA be listed as 146+ or 531+?-Nihlus1 (talk) 08:35, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

They are equipped, trained, payed and sometimes led by the IRGC, but they are not organisationally part of the IRGC. Some have even identified them to be now part of Hezbollah Afghanistan [1]. Also, most reliable sources when pointing out IRGC dead they are referring to the Iranians and not the non-Iranians who are talked about in a separate capacity. Based on all this plus the overall vagueness, Iranian military dead need to be separate from the other non-Iranians. EkoGraf (talk) 21:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Rebel groups

Introduction section was edited to make article misleading. Introoduction part should describe the nature of the conflict and oposing forces. The information about opositioon was deleted on 1st November and introduction only describes Government forces. The follwing section should be reincluded into intrduction:

The armed opposition consists of various groups that were either formed during the course of the conflict or joined from abroad. In the north-west of the country, the main opposition faction is the al-Qaeda-affiliated al-Nusra Front allied with numerous other smaller Islamist groups, some of which operate under the umbrella of the Free Syrian Army (FSA). The designation of the FSA by the West as a moderate opposition faction allows it, under the CIA-run programmes, to receive sophisticated weaponry and other military support from the U.S. and some Gulf countries that effectively increases the total fighting capacity of the Islamist rebels. In the east, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), a jihadist militant group originating from Iraq, made rapid military gains in both Syria and Iraq. ISIL eventually came into conflict with other rebels, especially with Al-Nusra, leaders of which did not want to pledge allegiance to ISIL. By July 2014, ISIL controlled a third of Syria's territory and most of its oil and gas production, thus establishing itself as the principal anti-government force. As of 2015, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey are openly backing the Army of Conquest, an umbrella rebel group that reportedly includes an al-Qaeda linked al-Nusra Front and another Salafi coalition known as Ahrar ash-Sham, and Faylaq Al-Sham, a coalition of Muslim Brotherhood-linked rebel groups. Also, in the north-east, local Kurdish militias such as the YPG have taken up arms and have fought with both rebel Islamist factions and government loyalists.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.70.4.126 (talk) 21:04, 6 November 2015‎ (UTC)

References

Your opinion ?

Please read the article and express your opinion, is there any grounds to consider these facts as supporting IS? Thank. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/research-paper-isis-turke_b_6128950.html

in addition http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/turkey-has-spent-years-allowing-jihadist-groups-to-flourish-so-beware-its-real-reasons-for-shooting-a6747161.html

http://www.infowars.com/former-nato-commander-turkey-is-supporting-isis/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.252.229.3 (talk) 12:34, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2015

There is credible information regarding the list of allies ISIS has. Turkey should be listed as an ally towards ISIS, Turkey has been purchasing all of the oil ISIS is able to capture or produce. Mark Van Muur (talk) 02:00, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

• Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Stabila711 (talk) 04:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Turkish businesses have been trading in gray market oil, but this kind of thing happens in all wars. Turkey is not militarily supporting ISIL and the infoboxes reflect which countries and militias are aligned with each other. Turkey is not fighting (generally) but is providing base access to the US and maybe other NATO forces soon. Legacypac (talk) 19:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2015

Turkey has allies within the listed group of oppositions, including Saudi Arabia. It is a known fact. Mark Van Muur (talk) 02:03, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

• Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Stabila711 (talk) 04:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Your opinion? 2

new event - http://www.euronews.com/2015/11/27/turkey-detains-journalists-who-allege-army-lorries-carried-weapons-for-isil/ - I still can't find the original Turkish article, in Euronews article said about "intelligence agency MIT trucks carrying weapons"...

Inappropriate reference link

Reference link (a) 143 under Course Of Events does not provide specific support for the statement and should be removed. I think it is just an editing artifact. The same link appears in the next sentence, to which it is actually relevant. Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.103.180 (talk) 01:39, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Ceasefire attempt 2012

This section starts off somewhat abruptly - "the peace plan" with no background could probably be improved. Also the sentence introducing Kofi Annan feels abrupt. Think this could be cleaned up a little (first impression while reading through article). -KaJunl (talk) 02:51, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

also I don't love that Friends of Syria is mentioned without definition -KaJunl (talk) 02:55, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

NPOV & Uncertainty

Article says, "On 24 November 2015, Turkey reportedly shot down a Russian warplane due to repeated airspace violation.[564]" The word "reportedly" is used, but also "reportedly" that claim is false. The article says, "due to." But the cause of this action is uncertain. The "due to" could be Turkey's desire to protect Turks living in Syria, and the Turkish explanation could be a "prophasis," and not the real reason. Claims such as made in this article require at least 2 reliable secondary sources -- the sources are not reliable if coming from prejudiced or ax-to-grind sources. And there should not be ostensibly reliable sources contradicting the claims. Who knows what happened & why? Was this the shoot down after a 30 second fly over a tiny protrusion of Turkish land into Syria -- shoot down occurring after Russian plane was gone and over Syria? These questions lead me to propose that the sentence be changed to "On 24 November, 2015, Turkey reportedly shot down a Russian warplane. Turkey justifies this action as a response to airspace violation. Russia denies the alleged violation." I so changed the entry for the editors' consideration.(EnochBethany (talk) 18:45, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2015

Remove Recep Erdogan from infobox supporting kurds and place in column supporting ISIL, as per discussion

Mathaddict (talk) 05:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. a boat that can float! (happy holidays) 14:40, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Light grammar cleanup

I've been reading through the article and making mostly minor grammar changes. So far mostly consistency for things like capitalization. Feel free to change anything if you think I picked the wrong standard in cases where things were being done two ways - my preference is just that you keep it consistent throughout the article. Maybe it'd be worthwhile to have some sort of list somewhere of the preferred spelling/transliteration/capitalization for common terms? Not sure. -KaJunl (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• **Numbers - words vs. digits is not consistent, do we have a solid rule for when to use which?
• "Governorate"
  • Which is correct, typically: "governorate" or "the governorate"? I notice that this isn't entirely consistent. For example "in the Aleppo Governorate" but "in Ar-Raqqah Governorate." I changed the one instance of "in the Aleppo Governorate" to "in Aleppo Governorate" for consistency with the rest of the article, but I didn't search extensively for other inconsistencies here.
  • I capitalized all instances of "governorate" after a name ("Aleppo Governorate" instead of "Aleppo governorate"). This wasn't done consistently at all, but the capitalized version seemed more common. The only ones I didn't change were the plurals ("Aleppo and Raqqah governorates") which I was less sure about. Feel free to change this to whatever is best; I just didn't like the lack of consistency.
• "Syrian Army"
  • Capitalized "Army" throughout the article. Previously was not done consistently.
• Raqqa vs. Raqqah
  • Changed a few instances of "Raqqa" to "Raqqah" but I'm not sure which is most appropriate. Also, is there consensus that Ar-Raqqah is better than Al-Raqqah? And is there a preference for when "al" or "ar" are included/left off? I don't know enough about Arabic or the Wikipedia conventions for such things.
• al-Nusra Front
  • "al-Nusra Front" was most common but there were some "Al Nusra Front" and "al-Nusra front." I went with "al-Nusra Front."
• al-Qusayr
  • Used al-Qusayr, changed an instance of "al-Quseir"
• What is a "column"? This line confuses me: "Before the column was stopped, government forces had captured the high ground at Maaret al-Arteek." However, I might just not be familiar with the terminology.
• ISIS vs. ISIL
  • Have *not* made any changes here but is it worth discussing? Should we only use one or the other or switch back and forth?
• US vs. U.S.
  • Noticed this in the "ISIL offensives and U.S. airstrikes (June 2014 – January 2015)" section, but I'm sure it's an issue throughout. Also, UK and UN. Not sure what the preference is for periods but it's switching back and forth within paragraphs. I tried to change a few but didn't want to bother moving forward until I was sure what it's supposed to be..
• Defense vs. defence
  • Just noting this and hopefully someone else can take a look.
• Reporting, censoring, and propaganda section
  • Didn't love the tone/grammar here, so I rephrased it a bit, but I'd appreciate someone taking a look.

Belligerents - Axis of Resistance - Russia

I think this section can be expanded/redone. Doesn't need to be huge, but I don't feel like the couple of sentences there currently paint a good overall summary picture. -KaJunl (talk) 21:17, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

ISI and al-Nusra

The following line is in the article: "In April 2013, the leader of the Islamic State of Iraq released an audio statement announcing that al-Nusra Front is its branch in Syria." Should we still include this? I feel like it's more confusing than anything, given how things have evolved. ISI/al Quaeda in Iraq has morphed into ISIL and is generally separate from the al-Nusra Front (right?) -KaJunl (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

It is important for historical purposes to be mentioned somewhere at least. Nusra is just ISIL light. And not even by much. FunkMonk (talk) 22:01, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. Maybe could be reworded though? I'll let others weigh in. To me, it just sounded more like "recent news" even though it wasn't recent, and it kind of muddied my understanding. Just a viewpoint from not-an-expert reading through the article the first time. -KaJunl (talk) 22:07, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Belligerents

The belligerents section is beginning to feel a bit outdated. The section on the Kurds probably could be expanded to talk more about Rojava and recent history. The ISIS section has some seemingly random lines, like the bit about Palmyra, that probably fit best elsewhere.

Overall, I feel like we should make sure that this section always lines up nicely against the "main belligerents" section of the chart on the right, seems to be talking about the same groups/groups them together the same, etc.

-KaJunl (talk) 22:05, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Rojava

Given that Rojava is listed as one of the 4 main belligerents, after reading this article, I feel the topic is not adequately covered. I know that there is the separate "Rojava" article, but I think the amount of territory currently in YPG control warrants some more information on the group in the Syrian Civil War article. -KaJunl (talk) 22:31, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Not a civil war

The term "civil war" does not seem to be appropriate anymore, given the very high number of foreign belligerents and their impact on the course of the war: Western coalition, Russia, Iran, Hezbolah, Kurds from Turkey, Afghans, foreign jihadists etc. Furthermore, the term "Syrian civil war" is very seldom used in the media. I suggest we rename this to "Syrian war". Lerichard (talk) 20:06, 2 December 2015 (UTC)