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Chinese, Japanese, non-Japanese

I removed these qualifiers, as I was confused about what they were referring to. For example, the qualifier "Chinese" just appears once, but there are many articles about ethnic slurs for Chinese people. Also sangokujin is qualified with "non-Japanese", but this would seem to be controversial, as the term itself is used to distance "mainland" Japanese people from those of Japanese ancestry who have settled elsewhere. I wouldn't mind putting the qualifiers back in if we can find a good way to avoid this kind of thing. All the best. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 00:44, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I removed "Celestial" also, as it was brought to my attention that it is not necessarily a derogatory name. --Funandtrvl (talk) 04:24, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Russians

Russians are not Asians. At least, not more than Poles. --188.93.211.210 (talk) 07:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Get a map. --91.10.13.118 (talk) 10:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that most of the Russian Federation is located in Asia does not make Russians any more Asian than Poles, who are related to them. Also, bohunk and khokhol are terms for Ukrainians, not Russians. It seems like an ironic joke that a template on ethnic slurs implies that Russians are Asians and Ukrainians are in fact Russians. 80.252.48.236 (talk) 16:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
One is Asian if their ancestral homeland is located in Asia. For Russians, I understand it is complex. I just went with Asia because most of Russia is located there.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:26, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Useless Template Box

I only checked the German entries, and for them this box is almost useless:

  • Three entries point to the same article (List of terms used for Germans)
  • One points to a different generic article (List of ethnic slurs)
  • One points to an article about a historic topic (Nazi), no mention of the slur.
  • One points to an article about an Irish band (Squarehead)
  • A single one points to Kraut, which is the way it works for any other template box

So useless almost without exception. Worse, I don't see a way how it can be fixed: Should there be an entry for all terms, all pointing to List of terms used for Germans? All pointing to List of ethnic slurs? Both would make this template box completely redundant. Individual articles for all terms? WP:NOT#DICTIONARY. I don't see a way that the situation could be different for other ethnicities.

This box should be replaced with a link to List of ethnic slurs (ie. deleted), or at least replaced with a much shorter box pointing to List of terms used for Germans-style articles. --91.10.13.118 (talk) 10:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question

I noticed Hispanics were listed under the "Europeans" section of this template. While I'm not educated in anthropology or any other kind of cultural studies, I'm fairly sure "Hispanic" denotes a person of Latin American origin (especially seeing as "Spaniards" is listed as a separate entity on the template). Nevertheless, the terms listed under the Hispanic column are all in reference to Latin Americans. Would it be a good idea to move this to its own section? felt_friend 06:12, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jews

I have removed Jews from "White people" (assuming this means "Europeans", because otherwise Arabs would be included here as well) and placed them under "Asian" for the following reasons.

1. Jews are a Middle Eastern diaspora with ethnic/cultural roots in the Levant, not Europe. Their presence in Europe is the result of immigration and/or exile from their original country, whereas the rest of the groups on that list (save for Hispanics, who really don't belong on there either) are all indigenous European nationalities, born and forged within Europe. Obviously, there is no comparison, and all of these arguments about "how long ago" it was are ultimately irrelevant, since Jewish ethnic identity has remained intact to this day.

2. Gypsies spent many centuries in Europe as well, but they are listed under South Asian. The same should be done for Jews, no? For consistency's sake?

3. Last, but not least, not all Jews are Ashkenazi. Many Jews, including my own family, have never set foot in Europe, but all Jews (or at least the overwhelming majority of us) trace our roots to Israel.

Overall, I see no valid reason to place Jews under White People without doing the same for Gypsies and Arabs.2601:84:4502:61EA:547A:83AE:26CC:7052 (talk) 04:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In response to the editor who reverted me, most if not all of the anti-Asian slurs on that template were invented by Westerners and Europeans, so that argument falls flat as well. Also, accusations of killing Christ are not endemic to the West, as there are millions all over the world who believe the Jews are responsible for Jesus' death.2601:84:4502:61EA:F4EB:98A1:2590:F045 (talk) 00:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ashkenazi Jews are European (and white), not Asian and most of the slurs are European. If you want to create a separate category, fine, but saying Jews (particularly Ashkenazinm) are all Asian is simply incorrect. Mizrachi Jews are Asian/North African but Ashkenazim are not. Electoralist (talk) 04:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, Hungarians and Finns originally migrated from Cental Asia (see Magyar tribes) so by your argument they should be classified as Asian rather than White. Electoralist (talk) 04:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ashkenazim are Jews, an Asian ethnic group (Jew = Judean; Judea is nowhere near Europe). The fact that they spent the past 1,500+ years in Europe doesn't suddenly erase that. Am I a Native American simply because some of my ancestors lived here for several hundred years? No. Living somewhere is not the same as being indigenous to it.
Hungarians and Finns are not from Central Asia. They were from Western Russia, i.e. the Urals. The Magyars in particular emerged BETWEEN the Volga River (which is even further West) and the Ural Mountains. The majority of Finns are Baltic and Swedish, save for the Sami who originate in the Laplands, which is divided between Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Russia. Moreover, all of these groups forged their national/ethnic identities in Europe (whereas Ashkenazim in general had always identified with the Jews/Israelites of the Levant; Ashkenazi is a regional designation and diaspora subgroup, not an ethnic identity in itself), and descend primarily from indigenous inhabitants of their respective countries (Ashkenazim, by and large, do not). It's not comparable.
Lastly, the category says "Jews", not "Ashkenazim" (not that it would make any difference).2601:84:4502:61EA:F9CC:B932:48BE:625A (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Summary:

Anyone who actually thinks Jews are white and Arabs are somehow not has no idea what they are talking about - they don't know geography, history, linguistics, and culture.

1) geography: Jewish genetics can be traced to the Levant. Period. Studies have almost entirely shown this. Even ashkenazim came from the Middle East originally.

2)as such, our culture is very distinct.

3) our language, Hebrew, is linguistically similar to Arabic. Even Yiddish, the Ashkenazi language, uses Hebrew letters and some Hebrew words.

4) history and archaeology: evidence of the Jewish attachment to Israel that we've carried with us everywhere we went

We are technically west Asian. We are next door neighbors to the Arabs who are indigenous to the Hejaz peninsula and the cultural similarities show. Any denial of this reflects a very poor understanding of Judaism and Jewish culture, and if you are a Jew it means your upbringing was not as strong as you may think.

I believe that if Arabs are not white, Jews cannot be white either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexandraMichelleMarkus (talk • contribs) 18:34, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, if the category is "White people", that would include Arabs as well.2601:84:4502:61EA:F9CC:B932:48BE:625A (talk) 18:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Jews are not "white," they are a Diasporic, Semitic (Afro-Asiatic, Southwest Asian, etc.), Ethnocultural/Ethnoreligious, People of Color. So I am okay for Jews (and Arabs) to be listed under "Black" or "Asian" in the template — depending where you consider the Middle East. Jeffgr9 (talk) 18:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ashkenazi Jews are certainly as white as all the other groups listed under "white". But if you're talking about all Jews you can't claim Ethiopian Jews and other African Jews are Asian. Electoralist (talk) 02:18, 2 July 2016 (UTC).[reply]
The essential issue here is that Jews as a whole are not an ethnic or cultural group but a religious group so Jews should not be listed under ethnic groups but under religious groups. The template is supposed to include both. Electoralist (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Jews officially self-define as a nation and tribe, not a religious group. A very large number of Jews are secular or atheist, for example. Even Jews who belong to other faiths are considered Jewish under Halakhah (our laws). Moreover, as mentioned above, the overwhelming majority of us are related to each other, and trace our ethnic/ancestral roots to the Levant. A Jew in Poland has more in common with a Jew in Iraq (not that there are any Jews left in Iraq) than he does with an indigenous white Pole. There's a reason we call ourselves "the nation of Israel". 2601:84:4502:61EA:44DA:81B3:CC2E:6B09 (talk) 05:17, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Ashkenazi Jews are certainly as white as all the other groups listed under "white"."
But they're not. That's the entire point. They're definitely less white/European than Germans, British, Poles, and Italians, and about as white/European as Gypsies and Arabs. African Jews are definitely more mixed than, say....Ashkenazim, but they have Israelite descent just like the rest of us.2601:84:4502:61EA:44DA:81B3:CC2E:6B09 (talk) 05:49, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Officially"? According to whom? Not according to any rabbi. Sorry but an ethnic Swede or sub-Saharan African who has an Orthodox Jewish conversion doesn't suddenly become Asian. Electoralist (talk) 07:43, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's how we've identified for millennia. It was never exclusively (or even primarily) about religion or faith, at any point in history.
Also, converts have been exceedingly rare for almost 2000 years, and there are many other indigenous tribes (including many Native North American ones) who adopt outsiders all the time. Does this suddenly make the majority of Indians "White European"? Obviously not.2601:84:4502:61EA:952A:D7E8:EB27:811B (talk) 13:03, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you can't just keep reverting over and over again when there are at least 3 others who disagree with you. Please stop. Obtain consensus here first.2601:84:4502:61EA:952A:D7E8:EB27:811B (talk) 13:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"That's how we've identified for millennia." That's simply not true. Jews identified as a religion for millenia. Ask a rabbi. In fact, it was the "scientific" racism of the late 19th and early 20th century that invented the concept that Jews are a race or ethnicity rather than a religion and Hitler who popularised that concept. Electoralist (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
See, for example:

Essentially, it's a matter of contention. Rabbis, for the most part (particularly prior to the mid-20th century), say Judaism is a religion full stop. Secularists may argue differently. Given that, at the very least, whether or not Judaism is an ethnicity is a contested concept, along with which ethnicity (or which several ethnicities), it makes more sense to simply list Jews as a separate category. Electoralist (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it is how we've identified for millennia. It is an integral part of Halakhah. We've always been the *nation* of Israel, the twelve tribes, etc. "Ask a rabbi" is a poor response, especially considering most of them (excluding Reform rabbis, but even they have softened their stance over the years; in addition to NK/Satmarim who are fringe extremist groups at best) would agree with me. Moreover, I've never heard of any religion that puts this much emphasis on descent, or considers atheists and practitioners of other faiths as one of their own.
Also, that source seems to be a blog or some other independent website. Not suitable 2601:84:4502:61EA:488D:8712:A339:2597 (talk) 22:24, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, you're wrong, especially re halakha and moreover your only source is your own assertion. No consensus for the recent template change that Jews are Asian. Electoralist (talk) 23:27, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your only source so far is yourself premised on being Jewish. Well,I'm Jewish too so not sure where that leaves your argument.209.171.88.77 (talk) 23:45, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the categorization of Jews as Middle Eastern/Asian has been discussed many times on other articles. And each time (to my knowledge at least), there was a consensus for our inclusion as a West Asian ethnic group.
I haven't provided sources because my arguments are self-evident. If Jews were a religious group only, non-observant Jews would all be excluded, and the vast majority of us wouldn't be related to each other by common descent (from *drum roll* Western Asia).2601:84:4502:61EA:488D:8712:A339:2597 (talk) 00:02, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"I haven't provided sources because my arguments are self-evident." Sorry, that's not the way Wikipedia works. See WP:Sources. There is neither a consensus to move Jews to the Asian category nor have you produced a single source to support your position. Electoralist (talk) 01:15, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Everything I've written is easily verifiable, and usually based on what is already written and sourced on Wikipedia itself. Jose R Martinez Cobo's indigenous status checklist is one such source.

Jews are definitely Asian. If they were white they wouldn't have been killed in the holocaust, they would have been considered white. Their language is similar to other Semitic languages and their culture too is very Semitic. I find it offensive that we are even having this debate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexandraMichelleMarkus (talk • contribs) 11:50, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there are numerous discussions where consensus was achieved on this. I'll see if I can dig them up.2601:84:4502:61EA:491E:ED16:23CE:D19A (talk) 11:35, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Should Jews be classified as Asian, European, or in a standalone category?

In this template, should Jews be listed under Asians, Europeans, or as a standalone category? Electoralist (talk) 01:20, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]


  • Standalone Jews consist of multiple ethnicities including Ethiopian Jews who are ethnically Ethiopian and Black, Bene Israel who are ethnically South Asian, Ashkenazi Jews who are ethnically European etc. To claim Jews belong to a single ethnic group is misleading and also dismissive of the diversity of the Jewish population. In addition, there has been a large degree of conversion to Judaism over the millenia (which is one reason for ethnic diversity among Jews). A Swede or Black person who converts to Judaism is 100% Jewish but does not suddenly become Asian. It makes more sense to treat Jews in the template in the same way as Hispanics and have a distinct category rather than try to shoehorn them under Asian (or European). For several years, Jews were listed as "White" in this template, recently they were moved to "Asian". Neither category is adequate. Electoralist (talk) 01:29, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Asian Jews have a semitic language that is very close to Arabic linguistically. They were exterminated in Europe precisely because they were not white. If Jews are white then Arabs must be white too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexandraMichelleMarkus (talk • contribs) 12:41, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention our proven cultural and ancestral/genetic origins in Israel.ChronoFrog (talk) 12:57, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Standalone. I came here from the RfC notice. I agree that it does not make sense to try to fit them into another category. And there is also a distinct history of antisemitism behind those slurs. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:12, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As a follow-up comment in what looks like a chaotic discussion, it seems to me that the arguments for Asian should really be arguments for moving every entry in the template to African. After all, the scientific evidence is that all humans originated there. It is true that the Jewish people emerged from earlier groups in what is now called the Middle East, but it gets silly to say that someone of completely non-Asian ethnicity should be called Asian based on incomplete anthropology. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:33, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The human species originated in Africa, but that's completely different from ethnogenesis, where a people/nation/culture/etc originate. Genetics is only one part of that (although yes, it does reaffirm that the majority of Jews trace most of their lineage to the Levant). Martinez Cobo's Indigenous Status criteria is (to my knowledge) what we usually use to determine where a certain group "belongs", and per that criteria, Jews are squarely West Asian.ChronoFrog (talk) 05:01, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that's a good reply. It makes me wonder: would it make sense to divide Asian into East Asian and West Asian? (This has also been mentioned by Jeffgr9 below.) After all, there is certainly a difference between Judaism and Shintoism. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:48, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, and it seems as though Jeffgr9 has already implemented this idea.ChronoFrog (talk) 20:57, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked at the template again, and I see that. It works for me. What it really is, is a standalone listing for Jews (along with another for Arabs), within a West Asian listing. That strikes me as the best of both proposals, and as entirely logical. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:48, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Asian, Black, or Middle Eastern/Afro-Asiatic As I said above, Jews are a Diasporic, Semitic (Afro-Asiatic, Southwest Asian, etc.), Ethnocultural/Ethnoreligious, People of Color. Jews have many branches, most genetically connected, but all Ethnoculturally or Tribally connected via core Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite (however each branch/sub-Tribe identifies) values (i.e. Torah, Tzedakah, Tikkun Olam, etc.). All Jews originated in Spirit in Middle East (Southwest Asia) and speak a dialect of or related to Hebrew language, which is both Semitic and Afro-Asiatic. So, either make a Middle Eastern/Afro-Asiatic category, or put the Jewish ethnic slurs in either the Asian or Black categories. Jeffgr9 (talk) 05:08, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Asian Ashkenazi Jews are not ethnically European. Living somewhere for a long time is not the same as being native/indigenous to it. Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews are obviously Middle Eastern as well, and although African, East Asian, and Indian Jews are more mixed, they too have common descent from the Levant. Off hand, recent converts are the only exception I know of, but they are both a very tiny percentage of the global Jewish population and, more importantly, analogous to outsiders who are adopted into Native American tribes. Does this mean Native Americans are no longer an ethnic group? Also, just a quick note, I'm the guy with the really long IP address from above. I made an account just now.ChronoFrog (talk) 12:54, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Asian The Jewish people originate in the Levant. While in the Diaspora we've become much more genetically diverse, but the cultural origin is Levantine. Ashkenazi Jews are genetically both Asian and European, but Ashkenazim do have substantial genetic connection to other Jewish groups, and DNA studies generally show patrilineal Levantine and matrilineal Southern European ancestry.

While European cultures have contributed to diasporic identity to some extent, it can hardly be said that the European peoples we lived among considered us to be European. (Amos Oz addresses this in A Tale of Love and Darkness: "Out there, in the world, all the walls were covered with graffiti: 'Yids, go back to Palestine,' so we came back to Palestine, and now the worldatlarge [sic] shouts at us: 'Yids, get out of Palestine.'")

We have maintained very substantial links with our native culture throughout exile. To suggest that because we had to flee our native lands that we are now native only to our places of exile - frequently places that were the site of our slaughter - seems unreasonable. Kitty (talk) 12:57, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Asian. The only land which can be called the land of the Jews is the Land of Israel, in Asia. All the names of the Jewish people point to a region in Asia: Israel, Hebrews (after Abraham, who crossed the Euphrates in flight from Babylon to Canaan), and Jews (which, among other related meanings, indicates Judea). No matter which group of Jews you point to, their prayers are in Hebrew, which is obviously not a European language, and they all pray, facing Jerusalem, to return to Israel, which throughout Jewish writings is called "our land," "the holy land," or even simply "The Land", without further description beyond the definite article.
Occasional converts do not change the culture of the people; in fact, in the case of Judaism, they nullify their own previous status and adopt the identity and culture of the people they join. This is clear from the halachic archetype of Ruth as such a convert and her statement that "Your people is my people" (Ruth 1:16, and Rashi there et al). Unlike comparatively superficial naturalization to a nation, converts become culturally Jewish. This of course includes the religious implications and obligations of Jewish culture, which come from Asia, as mentioned above. The convert's culture can hardly be said to have a culturally transformative effect on the people as a whole.
The religious obligations are not what define the Jew. If a non-Jew were to start keeping the Jewish commandments on his own, that would not make him a Jew. Rather, the obligations are understood as an effect of Jewish heritage. (Converts are thus said to be direct children of Abraham and Sarah in a spiritual sense.) With regard to religious practices, G-d is understood to be saying, "I took the children of Israel out of slavery. If you are of the children of Israel, do this for Me." Hence, Jewish heritage is the core of Jewish identity. This is why a non-religious Jew is still a Jew: his Jewish heritage will stay with him, whatever he himself thinks of it.Musashiaharon (talk) 13:19, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, here is consensus about Jews' Southwest Asian origins. Jeffgr9 (talk) 13:25, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment It's much more complex than simply being Asian or European (or African).
"A high degree of mixing of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Italian and Syrian Jews caused them to become more closely related to each other than they were to Middle Eastern, Iraqi and Iranian Jews. This genetic split seemed to have occurred about 2,500 years ago.
The author uses his observations to refute theories that Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of converted Khazars, a semi-nomadic people living in medieval Eurasia who welcomed Jews to their midst. He also reports that in addition to southern Europeans, the closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Beduin and Druse. “The genetic clusters formed by each of these non-Jewish Middle Eastern groups reflects their own histories of marrying within the group,” he said." [1]

In fact, there are different ethnic groupings within Judaism, interrelate yes, but to say Jews are "Asian" is a gross oversimplification. In addition, the various comments here suggesting that conversions to Judaism over the millenia are insignificant are not borne out by the fact that there are different Jewish ethnic cleavages. If the number of conversions were truly insignificant than Ashkenazim wouldn't have white skin, Ethiopian Jews wouldn't have black skin, Bene Israel wouldn't have brown skin, and Chinese Jews wouldn't have yellow skin etc. Electoralist (talk) 16:35, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, there are many Ashkenazim who don't have white skin, and many Levantine Arabs, Druze, and Samaritans (whom diaspora Jewry are very closely related to, despite the Samaritan's long history of inbreeding/refusal to accept converts) who do. Second, it seems you're still not getting the point. We are Asian because our collective national/ethnic origins are in the Levant, specifically what is now (and was historically) Israel. It's a given that a people who are dispersed from their homeland, for whatever reason, will pick up new genes along the way, but that does not negate our identity. If blood purity is a requirement for us to belong under a specific category, then none of the groups listed would go anywhere. What makes us a people, what makes us "Jews", is our (proven) collective historical, ancestral, and cultural origins in Judea, in Asia.ChronoFrog (talk) 21:14, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm Jewish and I'm not Asian. Electoralist (talk) 21:59, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See Are Jews white? Electoralist (talk) 22:19, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that's a blog, one man's personal opinion. Ethnic identity and categorization on here is determined by collective self-definition (we identify as the "nation of Israel" and have done so for millennia), accordance to relevant facts, adherence to WP:RS, particularly the UN's established criteria for indigenous status, and above all, consistency. You may or may not like or accept that Jews are Asian (I personally couldn't care less), but per the above factors, they are.ChronoFrog (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's from a science blog from Discover Magazine by an individual who is a doctoral candidate in genomics and genetics at the University of California, Davis so no, it's somewhat more than "one man's personal opinion" and is somewhat more expert than any of the lay opinions we've seen in our discussion. Electoralist (talk) 01:09, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Electoralist (talk) have you not read anything I have written? By the way, I am Jewish as well. If not, please read above. You, and all Jews, are at the core of both genetics and culture aboriginally West Asian/Afro-Asiatic/Middle Eastern that does not take away from the identifications of East Asian or South Asian. Jews are indeed Jews—and almost their own "race"—but Jews' ethnogenesis was in Eretz Yisrael. During Jews' various Diasporas (which include the Igbo people as well) they mixed with surrounding "hostland" groups; but their homeland is in West Asia/Middle East. Do you see? Also, the page you cite shows that all Jews intersect with other Middle Eastern genealogy and originate there as well. Jeffgr9 (talk) 00:03, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Standalone - As per Electoralist; as a second choice, Middle Eastern/Afro-Asiatic, as per Jeffgr9. Jews are an ethnoreligious group with plenty of genetic admixture and intergroup diversity. If I went out, converted, and became Jewish, my ethnicity would not change, period. It makes little sense to shoehorn them into another category, as even an individual may have multiple ethnicities (German-Jewish - Karl Marx, Italian-Jewish - Primo Levi, Russian-Jewish - Vasily Grossman, and so on). There is no single "Jewish culture" - rather, many separate Jewish cultures have developed, influenced by local cultures. These differences arise in cuisine, dress, language, etc. This is clearly a heated discussion (as all ethnicity-related ones are). GABgab 00:07, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This response ignores many of the points raised above. Also, notice that all of your examples have "Jewish" attached to them; the term Jew was coined to denote one "of Judea", a region in historic Israel. What makes us a distinct group is our Jewish background, namely our collective national/ethnic origins in Judah, which is in Western Asia. Suggesting that a German Jew is really just a German and not Judean (thereby ignoring the "Jew" part) is like saying that an Irish American or an Indian Canadian are not really Irish or Indian, and that they have lost a part of who they are simply by virtue of living somewhere else, whatever the circumstances are.
Since when does the dispersion of a people and cultural/ethnic intermixing nullify or erase our identity and origins? I'd like at least one other example of this. And as mentioned previously, many indigenous tribes in North America (and elsewhere) have made a habit of accepting outsiders into their fold. The occasional acceptance of converts or newcomers does not change the ethnic identity of the whole. The vast majority of Jews are not converts.ChronoFrog (talk) 00:24, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
GAB, Jews indeed have admixture and intergroup diversity. But, if you convert, you join the Tribe, that means you do become a different ethnicity—that is what happened with Abayudaya—they are ethnic Jews now as per Torah law. And your statement does not contradict that Jews are one people, but with many and intersecting branches. They all stem from same place/genetics/philosophies/cultural practices/etc.
Jews worldwide are more Ethnoculturally related to Middle Eastern groups than to any other 1 StudyAnother Study . They may adopt/exchange with hostland peoples, but their core identity is Jewish—which also serves as some of the reasons why Jews were persecuted by those in their hostlands, racism literally known as Anti-Semitism. Jeffgr9 (talk) 00:36, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you convert you become a different religion and may even adopt a different cultural affinity but your ethnicity per se does not change. A Black African converting to Judaism does not become Asian. Similary, Rachel Dolezal did not change her ethnicity to Black just because she adopted African American culture and would not have even if she converted to an indigenous African religion. Similarly, Europeans who convert to Hinduism do not become ethnically Indian or South Asian. Electoralist (talk) 01:12, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you immigrate to France, you become French (at least in part), even if you don't belong to that nation's indigenous ethnic majority. Likewise, if you immigrate to Britain, India, China, or anywhere else in the world, same principles apply. If you become a Jew, you become Judean (at least nominally, in a national sense). Are you seeing the point now? Black Americans are not, and never were, a tribe/nation, but Jews are both.ChronoFrog (talk) 01:17, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"If you immigrate to France, you become French" - now you're confusing nationality with ethnicity. Electoralist (talk) 01:18, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not. This is what most of us have been saying all along. Jews self-define as a nation, and our ethnic majority is Israelite. England is also a nation, whose ethnic majority is Briton or Anglo-Saxon (even though not all Brits belong to either group). Take this and apply it across the board. Now do you understand?ChronoFrog (talk) 01:24, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you are confusing nationality and ethnicity. In particular, you are confusing civic nationalism with ethnicity. Electoralist (talk) 01:25, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
e.g. a South Asian immigrant to the United Kingdom may become British by nationality (or English if they live in England under a civic nationalist view of nationality) but they do not become ethnically Anglo-Saxon. Electoralist (talk) 01:29, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Jews are a nation, converts (and once again, most Jews are not converts) become part of that nation, but the ethnic majority is still Judean/Middle Eastern. What are you not understanding about this?ChronoFrog (talk) 01:31, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"e.g. a South Asian immigrant to the United Kingdom may become British by nationality (or English if they live in England under a civic nationalist view of nationality) but they do not become ethnically Anglo-Saxon." Exactly. He is still South Asian. And Anglo-Saxons remain ethnic Brits. Likewise, ethnic Jews are still Judean, no matter where they live. The occasional acceptance of converts doesn't change our ethnicity.ChronoFrog (talk) 01:31, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"most Jews are not converts" Most Jews living today are not converts per se but over the past 2,000 years it is reasonable to conclude that a significant number of people have converted to Judaism (and/or there have been significant admixtures with other populations due to reasons other than conversion) and that therefore a significant number of Jews are descended at least in part from populations that are not "ethnically" Middle Eastern Jews. "The occasional acceptance of converts doesn't change our ethnicity." But a significant admixture does - and indeed the existence of entire Jewish populations such as the Bene Israel of India or Ethiopian Jews who are laragely descended from converts means these populations are not ethnically Middle Eastern (or Arab Jews as the Mizrahim were previously called). If you disagree, please explain why not all Jews look Middle Eastern (indeed, most Jews do not look Middle Eastern). Electoralist (talk) 01:37, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"And Anglo-Saxons remain ethnic Brits." Again, you are confusing nationality and ethnicity. See British people - arguably there is no British ethnicity per se, it's a multiethnic culture and nationality. Electoralist (talk) 01:40, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Most Jews today are Ashkenazi, Sephardi, or Mizrahi, and they are all at least partially (most estimates have it at around 40-60 percent) Judean/Middle Eastern. As far as looks go, most people belonging to these diasporic divisions (especially Mizrahim) look Middle Eastern, or have at least some typically Levantine traits. Moreover, you didn't address my earlier point, that many Levantine Arabs, Samaritans, Druze, and so on look very European (no doubt a result of Crusader and Roman conquests, but also the fact that Levantines in ancient times weren't as "dark" as we imagine; the Egyptians depicted us as having blue eyes, and King David is said to have been a redhead). African, East Asian, and Indian Jews make up a much smaller percentage of Jews and (obviously) have assimilated with their host populations to a much greater degree, but they are shown to collectively carry Israelite descent as well. Recent converts are an even smaller minority, and with regards to that, I refer you back to my above comments.ChronoFrog (talk) 01:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Again, you are confusing nationality and ethnicity." You keep saying this, but have repeatedly failed to articulate how. Nationality and ethnicity can and do often overlap. You know that, right? Also, British nationality is defined by Anglo-Saxon ethnicity, culture, language, laws, etc.ChronoFrog (talk) 01:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And again, that's besides the larger point; the addition of converts/newcomers/immigrants/etc to a nation or tribe does not change the ethnicity or identity of that nation/ethnic group.ChronoFrog (talk) 01:56, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"'Again, you are confusing nationality and ethnicity.' You keep saying this, but have repeatedly failed to articulate how." You suggested that if someone immigrated to France they become ethnically French. This is incorrect, they adopt French nationality but they do not change ethnicity. Hence, you are confusing ethnicity and nationality. "British nationality is defined by Anglo-Saxon ethnicity, culture, language, laws, etc." Actually, it's not. British nationality is defined by the United Kingdom Parliament which, last time I checked, does not exclude someone from becoming an MP on the basis of ethnicity and is not exclusively made up of Anglo-Saxons. Perhaps you are thinking of the South African parliament during apartheid which did exclude certain ethnicities from its membership? "Nationality and ethnicity can and do often overlap" - they are distinct concepts. However, ethnic nationalism is a conflation of the two as opposed to civic nationalism. Electoralist (talk) 02:08, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"You suggested that if someone immigrated to France they become ethnically French." Obviously, you misinterpreted my comments because I never said this. Immigrants to France become nationally French, but not ethnically. Likewise, converts to Judaism don't adopt our ethnicity, just our nationality. And just as ethnic French people remain ethnic French regardless of immigration, ethnic Jews remain ethnic Jews (that is, Judean/Middle Eastern).ChronoFrog (talk) 02:20, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Actually, it's not. British nationality is defined by the United Kingdom Parliament which, last time I checked, does not exclude someone from becoming an MP on the basis of ethnicity. Perhaps you are thinking of the South African parliament during apartheid?" No, I'm not. English national identity is historically Anglo-Saxon, and Anglo-Saxons make up the majority of English people to this day (although this can change in the future). This does not mean that non-Anglo Saxons can't become MPs or influential in British culture. I never suggested that. Also, apartheid South Africa was largely Afrikaner (Dutch), not English.ChronoFrog (talk) 02:20, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"they are distinct concepts." In a literal sense, yes. But the overlap is there, so they can't be divorced from each other that easily. Especially as it plays such a significant role in Jewish self-identity.ChronoFrog (talk) 02:20, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Asian. DNA studies in recent years have confirmed that overall, Jews, regardless of where they lived in the Diaspora, still constituted a distinct genetic identity for the most part that is West Asian - Middle Eastern, similar to genetic profiles in Syria, Eastern Turkey, R. Froikin

Whoever you are, you didn't sign your name. I also edited your post to reflect your vote, if you don't mind.ChronoFrog (talk) 18:23, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Electoralist (talk, Rachel Dolezal was not accepted into a Tribe. That is one of the key differences, and is even discussed [here]:

"You can’t become a Jew on your own; conversion rituals must be done in front of three people. Identity entails both an individual choice and a communal response.
As one rabbi told me: 'Your own personal sense of identity and $3.75 will get you a no-foam latte. It’s not enough to say ‘I am who I say I am.’ It’s a two-way process. The community must welcome someone in.' "

This author posits that you can change your "ethnicity" if you are Tribally recognized/accepted. Rachel Dolezal did not do that, she lied. The Abayudaya have passed down many generations of Jews who live very separate lifestyles from other Ugandans; they are thus a part of our Tribe and Ethnoculturally linked to Israel, Southwest Asia, the Middle East, and Afro-Asiatic/Semitic Peoples. Their struggle is our struggle plus whatever individual struggles they have to encounter in their hostland. They have joined the Diaspora in Spirit/sociopolitical affiliation and have laid their lives on the line for that affiliation. To say that they are not Tribally/Ethnoculturally Semitic people insults their commitment, dedication, and sacrifices. Yes, their genetics are, as far as anyone knows without testing and analyzing, not "Semitic," but their Ethnocultural distinction in Ugandan society no longer makes them ethnically Ugandan, they are now a new branch (or sub-Tribe) that sociopolitically, and thus racially in Uganda, intersects with all Jewish People, and essentially with other Diasporic Black People in general.Jeffgr9 (talk) 20:45, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Did you read the rest of the conversation? If not, I strongly suggest doing so, as there were many valid points/counterpoints raised. If there are any concerns you have, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.ChronoFrog (talk) 20:57, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I read the conversation. I don't have any questions, thank you. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 21:13, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Standalone. The term "Jews" refers to a complex mix of ethnicity, religious affiliation, and cultural roots. Even within the ethnic portion, there is considerable diversity and the origins of some groups are unclear. Furthermore, anti-Asian sentiment would be unlikely to imply anti-Jewish sentiment (whereas Semitic would be a valid superset in this sense). HGilbert (talk) 08:24, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Per Wikipedia itself. "The Jews (/dʒuːz/;[11] Hebrew: יְהוּדִים ISO 259-3 Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation [jehuˈdim]), also known as the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group[12] originating from the Israelites, or Hebrews, of the Ancient Near East.[13][14] Jewish ethnicity, nationhood and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation,[15][16][17] while its observance varies from strict observance to complete nonobservance.

Jews originated as a national and religious group in the Middle East during the second millennium BCE,[10] in the part of the Levant known as the Land of Israel.[18] The Merneptah Stele appears to confirm the existence of a people of Israel, associated with the god El,[19] somewhere in Canaan as far back as the 13th century BCE (Late Bronze Age).[20][21] The Israelites, as an outgrowth of the Canaanite population,[22] consolidated their hold with the emergence of the Kingdom of Israel, and the Kingdom of Judah. Some consider that these Canaanite sedentary Israelites melded with incoming nomadic groups known as 'Hebrews'.[23] Though few sources in the Bible mention the exilic periods in detail,[24] the experience of diaspora life, from the Ancient Egyptian rule over the Levant, to Assyrian Captivity and Exile, to Babylonian Captivity and Exile, to Seleucid Imperial rule, to the Roman occupation, and the historical relations between Israelites and the homeland, became a major feature of Jewish history, identity and memory.[25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34]

Genetic studies on Jews show that most Jews worldwide bear a common genetic heritage which originates in the Middle East, and that they bear their strongest resemblance to the peoples of the Fertile Crescent.[64][65][66] The genetic composition of different Jewish groups shows that Jews share a common genetic pool dating back 4,000 years, as a marker of their common ancestral origin. Despite their long-term separation, Jews maintained a common culture, tradition, and language.[67]"

Also, and this should go without saying, there is no such thing as a 100 percent genetically contiguous population, so it seems silly from an encyclopedic standpoint to make this a prerequisite for considering a population indigenous to a specific area. It seems especially silly when people (seemingly) make this demand only of Jews.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 22:35, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From the same article: "Jews are often identified as belonging to one of two major groups: the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim. Ashkenazim, or "Germanics" (Ashkenaz meaning "Germany" in Hebrew), are so named denoting their German Jewish cultural and geographical origins, while Sephardim, or "Hispanics" (Sefarad meaning "Spain/Hispania" or "Iberia" in Hebrew), are so named denoting their Spanish/Portuguese Jewish cultural and geographic origins. The more common term in Israel for many of those broadly called Sephardim, is Mizrahim (lit. "Easterners", Mizrach being "East" in Hebrew), that is, in reference to the diverse collection of Middle Eastern and North African Jews who are often, as a group, referred to collectively as Sephardim (together with Sephardim proper) for liturgical reasons, although Mizrahi Jewish groups and Sephardi Jews proper are ethnically distinct.[95] Smaller groups include, but are not restricted to, Indian Jews such as the Bene Israel, Bnei Menashe, Cochin Jews, and Bene Ephraim; the Romaniotes of Greece; the Italian Jews ("Italkim" or "Bené Roma"); the Teimanim from Yemen; various African Jews, including most numerously the Beta Israel of Ethiopia; and Chinese Jews, most notably the Kaifeng Jews, as well as various other distinct but now almost extinct communities."
You're responding to an argument I never made. Yes, Jews absorbed foreign influences in diaspora and mixed with foreign populations to varying degrees, but that's not enough to disqualify Jews qua Jews from the Asian category.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"It seems especially silly when people (seemingly) make this demand only of Jews." That's a ridiculous comment. Hispanics are listed as a standalone group as well because it would be inaccurate to say they are European per se. We would not list Native Americans as Asians even though there's evidence they originated in Asia. Yes, no ethnic group is exclusive, they evolve over time, no one is saying otherwise.
Hispanics refers to Latin Americans, especially those from Spanish speaking countries. Native Americans are not considered Asian because their ethnogenesis did not happen there. The Jewish people originated in Asia, which is where they became a nation and distinct people. Believe it or not, there is a huge difference.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Human Trumpet Solo, one could easily flip your argument and more accurately say a number European ethnic groups actually originated in Central Asia or Western Asia and yet are considered European - but that classification is denied only to the Jews and Roma/Sinti populations, most famously by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Electoralist (talk) 15:30, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Then you might want to look at the writings of Kant, Hegel, Proudhon, d'Holbach, Voltaire, et al and see what they thought of the Jews. They all predate Hitler by at least a couple of centuries, and they sure didn't consider Jews "European". Nobody thought Jews were European because it was common knowledge that Jews came from the Israelites. As to your other point, I can't think of any actual European group that originates outside of Europe. I saw your Magyar and Finn examples above, but they are both European in origin.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They didn't think of Jews as Euroepean because they were anti-Semitic or influenced by anti-Semitic ideas. Electoralist (talk) 21:53, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect. We were not considered European for the same reason Gypsies and black people were not considered European. We were a foreign (non-European) diaspora living in Europe, not an indigenous European nationality or ethnic group. Philosemites did not consider us European either, nor did many (if not most) Jews, so you can't attribute this to antisemitism. Jews living outside of Israel are considered "diaspora Jews" within our community for a reason.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 12:40, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be some manner of consensus the way it is right now: No striping because Jews have separate slurs from Arabs, but both go under the umbrella of West Asians, which goes under umbrella of Asians. We have to be consistent with the terms we use to describe Peoples. Jews are more Semitic than not, so there should either be a Middle Eastern/Afro-Asiatic group with Jews, Arabs, etc. as subsections (which it essentially is now), or keep it the way it is with Asians>West Asians>Jews, Samaritans Arabs, etc. Jeffgr9 (talk) 19:16, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

7 Asian vs 5 standalone is far from a consensus. 192.235.252.195 (talk) 21:13, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One of those standalone votes (Tryptofish) approved of Jeffgr9's more recent implementations, so now it's 8 Asian vs 4 standalone. Regardless, you can't revert the Template to exclude Jews when there are still 7 people (and now 8 people, apparently) who are opposed to it, especially when there are stronger arguments in favor of inclusion (which is what really counts).The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 12:40, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I mentioned Asian before, but if it were created, I would support putting Jews (and other appropriate groups) under Middle Eastern. This actually seems to be a more specific and useful categorization. How many others here think it is a good idea? Musashiaharon (talk) 03:15, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ethiopian Jews aren't Middle Eastern. Electoralist (talk) 03:19, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not discuss the Ethiopian Jews in this particular RfC. The Ethiopian Jews are a controversial topic on many fronts, even within the Jewish community, with secular and halachic opinions on both sides as well as on the fence. Let's just deal with groups where there isn't controversy about whether they are, from the outset, Jewish or not. I myself don't mean to invalidate the Jewishness of the Ethiopian Jews; that is not my place. It's just that that discussion has too many intricacies unique to that group and would be a distraction to the core issue at hand, which is about ethnic slurs, and how slurs against Jews in general should be categorized.
For the sake of clarifying my reasoning, my opinion on the Beta Israel hinges on whether they qualify as Jewish according to Jewish criteria. If so, they are direct inheritors of the Jewish ethnicity from the land of Israel, and would hence be another Middle Eastern ethnicity. If not, then they might not be Middle Eastern, depending on where the traditions came from. In the case of Jews, any departure from the traditional Jewish criteria for Jewishness would represent a definitive break from Jewish traditions and hence possibly another ethnogenesis. Since the Ashkenazic, Mizrahi, Sefardi and other major Jewish communities maintained contact with each other and mutually maintained their collective Jewish identity (especially among the Torah scholars of the communities, who maintained the chain of tradition), they are not in the same unfortunate situation as the Beta Israel. Again, I do not bring this with intent to discuss the Ethiopian Jews in detail; I only mention this to show that my reasoning is not self-contradictory. This is the same reasoning process I am applying to the other groups of Jews, and this is why I consider those groups undoubtedly Middle Eastern and hence Asian in ethnicity.Musashiaharon (talk) 05:43, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
These slurs mainly refer to Ashkenazim (and to a lesser extent, Sephardim and Mizrahim) anyway, and there is no doubt of their Middle Eastern ethnic origin, revisionist attempts by anti-Israel polemicists notwithstanding.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 12:40, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jews most definitely should be categorized in the same category as Arabs. Whether that means a separate category for Middle East and North Africa, or whether they get grouped under Asian (the Middle East is in Southwest Asia), to classify Jews in a different group than Arabs is nonsense. Culturally and linguistically, Jews are quite distinct from Europeans, and related to Arabs and other semitic peoples. Genetically, the overwhelming majority of Jews show Middle Eastern ancestry. The fact that Judaism allows converts to join does not negate the fact that Jews are Middle Eastern. Those who convert to the Jewish religion are also formally adopted into "Am Yisrael", the Nation of Israel, in much the way that Native American tribes sometimes adopted outsiders into the tribe. Would you stop classifying the Shawnee as American, because they adopted some members of European derivation?

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