Talk:Narcissism

Confused

(Crossposted to Narcissism (psychology)) -- New to this article, can someone explain how Narcissism and Narcissism (psychology) are intended to differ? I see a lot of overlap. Are there really two different articles here? Or are they really covering "narcissism" and "psychological theories of narcissism"? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 23:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

They are really covering Narcissism as a term in general use and Narcissism as a term in psychology, which, if you read the articles, you will see are quite different. --Zeraeph 23:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that helps. I'd like to check my impressions a bit "step at a time", to make sure I understand the way it's working in both articles. Can you comment so's to make sure I'm staying with you on this?

1. I just re-read the main "narcissism" article, in light of the above. It seems to cover mostly 4 main areas: narcissism in culture (dandy, new romantic, metrosexual), narcissism of a culture as a whole, narcissism as a basis for societally harmful self-image-protective behavior (medical narcissism), and research into the genetic basis of clinical narcissistic tendencies. Roughly in simple terms, correct?
2. The Narcissism (psychology) article then seems to be a specialized article, that examines the concetp of narcissism within clinical medicine (psychology), rather than its cultural manifestations - ie, theories and specialist forms. Correct?

The genetic trait section on narcissism was the odd one out that threw me, as it seemed to cover similar ground to the psychological narcissism. I may have an idea how to improve that, because as written, it's essentially research into the genetic basis of the psychology (Alvarez/evolutionary psychology) or the personality disorder (Livesley et al), which are themselves subjects that are closer related to the psychology page than general use. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 23:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

NOW I see your confusion, when asked, the genetics people expressed a preference for being part of the generic Narcissm article over being confused with the psychological aspects of narcissisn which is a totally different usage. I suppose, one day, when there is enough material this should really fork off to a "Genetic narcissism" article? Do you think it is time? --Zeraeph 00:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

How about the following division? (ignore the crass titles, they're indicative only as I don't know the proper terms for all these)

Narcissism (general article):

• Narcissism overview - what it is, and the divide between cultural and psychological aspects
• Narcissism in society

• Cultural roles and stereotypes (dandy, metrosexual etc)
• Cultural narcissism (narcissism of a culture as a whole)
• Self-image-protective behavior (medical and similar narcissism)

• Narcissism in psychology (brief summary style of narcissism in psychology, and research into its basis, with a Main article: section header link)
• Narcissism in myth and literature

Narcissism (psychological, clinical and biological aspects):

• Definition and scope sort of overview
• Functions of narcissism

• Psychological functions and benefits of narcissism
• Biological and evolutionary functions and benefits of narcissism

• History of concept in psychology (incl. various theories and their proponents)
• Other forms of narcissism

• Acquired situational narcissism
• Gender narcissism
• Sexual narcissism

• Research into narcissism

• Genetic research

I'm not convinced by "genetic narcissism" as a separate article, mostly because the research doesn't seem to be about some separate genetic matter (it's not comparable to genetic causes of cancer as opposed to viral causes of cancer), ie, it's not a different type of narcissism that's covered. It's very clearly looking for genetic backing for the psychological behaviors covered in the psychology article. The above schemata would probably work well. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 00:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Edit: I'm assuming from the title of Alvarez' paper that there's a separate area of interest in narcissism, related to biological and evolutionary aspects of the traits. I've drafted the above on that basis. If there's any 3rd article then an article "evolutionary narcissism" would be it, but it doesn't sound like there's enough to warrant splitting it from the other two. Thoughts? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 01:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting ideas there...though I'd be more inclined to keep sexual and gender Narcissism in the main article (they really straddle both, to keep them in main is less stigmatising) --Zeraeph 05:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I left them in the psychology article since that's where they are now. I assumed that was for good reason. Reviewing I tend to agree with you that a place in the main article would work for sexual narcissism, but gender and acquired narcissism seem to be more psychological, and would fit well as a mention in the main article under psychology, but kept in the psychological article as at present. If that change is made, would the schemata above then be close to a viable one? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 23:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

To be honest I had forgotten that they were already in the Psychology article (well the sub heading does say "confused" doesn't it? So I stayed on topic. :o) ). They all straddle the line, but I am happy with your view, that would work. --Zeraeph 00:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That cleanup and schemata would be mostly okay with you then? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 01:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Definately think it would be a great improvement. --Zeraeph 01:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Will leave it here for other views for 3 days (8 jan) in case there is any serious dissent or other collaborative ideas, first. As respect for others. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 21:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Monopolize?People that describe others as being happy with oneself and confident of oneself to the point of expression as a disorder are perhaps a bit narcisistic...Ryans.lewis3365 (talk) 04:38, 30 May 2011 (UTC) perhaps a bit narcasistic... Because they are attempting to manipulate that persons wellbeing by making a vague blatent label with little explanation to inhibit that person to question themselves when they are simply being happy and content with themselves...Ryans.lewis3365 (talk) 13:36, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

This talk page is for improving Wikipedia's coverage of Psychology, not for this general discussion. Please take this elsewhere. Thanks, MartinPoulter (talk) 13:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC) I'm refering to the example on the page about narcissism... The subject named "Narsissus" was not exibiting any narcissistic activity... He had never seen his reflection before...Ryans.lewis3365 (talk) 15:20, 30 May 2011 (UTC) A better example for narcissism is like when people manipulate others interpretations by making blatent lables with insufficient examples...Ryans.lewis3365 (talk) 15:25, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Take it to the relevant talk page, please. The similarity between "Narcissus" and "Narcissism" is not accidental. Please also give your sections a meaningful title that is relevant to what you are trying to say. That makes it easier for us readers. Thanks, MartinPoulter (talk) 18:38, 30 May 2011 (UTC) 71.196.134.245 (talk) 20:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC) 71.196.134.245 (talk) 21:05, 30 May 2011 (UTC)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a psychological type of conundrum associated with this exammple of the character named Narcissus. The fact that his name sounds the same is distracting from actually understanding what the act of narcissism is... Refering to a young person that has never seen his reflection responding in that way even in a hypothetical situation is not justifiable grounds for diagnosis of a psychological disorder. The example is insufficient to fully understand what narcissism is. I understand that the story suggests warning that some may be viewed as narcissistic by the interpretations of the older miserable idiots that like to spread rederic for there own interests or to misdirect others interpretations because people that manipulate social conversations or interpretations in that way are perhaps narcisistic unless they can state a specific logical purpose for there actions...71.196.134.245 (talk) 21:04, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

---

Heritability

I have removed the Heritability study with Twins section because the study had no bearing on anything. Did no one consider the fact that twins might develop similarly because they live together for the better part of their lives? If they had done it with twins who had been separated since birth, the study might have some meaning. --Savant13 11:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but the study was controlled and is verifiable, the text was cited, so, you can't just delete it because *in your opinion* it is not valid, it goes back.

Also, as far as I can see, the study determined heritability by comparing the results from identical twins, with those of fraternal twins (no more alike than any other siblings) to arrive at conclusions. As fraternal twins are just as likely to be subject to the same environmental factors as identical twins, and the study compared the difference between the two, I really do not see your problem. --Zeraeph 12:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Zeraeph is correct. If a statement can be attributable to a reliable source then the statement belongs in the encyclopedia article. If you question the validity or reliability of the source, you can do that on the talk page. If the issue is one of broader controversay regarding the topic, then a separate section detailing the controversary, with sources, would seem appropriate. DPeterson^talk 12:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I never meant to imply that foul play was involved, merely that the conclusions drawn were questionable. In addition, I would not assume that fraternal and identical twins are subject to the same environmental factors. --Savant13 13:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, you can never assume ANYTHING about the factors affecting a test group, there are too many potential variables, even twins seperated from birth (who have shown similar tendencies in Scandinavian Studies) might be subject to either remarkably similar, or remarkably different environmental factors depending on the nature of separation. But the studies did show a distinct trend, and are, most impotantly, verifiable. However, if you can point out another study that contradicts these finding let's include it too. --Zeraeph 13:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Zeraeph. The study meets Wikipedia standards of being verifialbe and attributable to a reliable sourcee and so should be cited...as can other studies that find other results. This is an encyclopedia article, after all. DPeterson^talk 17:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

More positive Opening paragraph & wish for a image more directly reletave to subject.

I have added a more powerfull opening paragraph to cover the essence of this problematic disorder.The previous image was too graphic and appears to be a side tangent thats hardly reletave to the essance of the disorder.I beleive a more positive opening is in store.My opinion is that an image less graphic and more relitave would also help as an improvement.Fullertonart 11:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, NOW I understand the problem...let me try to explain. This article is for the general CONCEPT of Narcissism, quite independent of psychology, which has existed for centuries, NOT the disorder. Pathological Narcissism is NOT the topic of this article at all.

Narcissism (psychology) relates to all aspects of Narcissism in psychology, including the positive ones (Do you realise that we ALL have some healthy Narcissism? Without it we couldn't even have self esteem.).

However, for disorders of Narcissism you have two choices Narcissistic personality disorder or Malignant narcissism. Both are very different articles. As they are documented medical conditions, I am sure you can appreciate that all citations must be made VERY STRICTLY to medical and academic Reliable sources, but within that constraint, you are VERY welcome to come and help improve them. --Zeraeph 15:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Traits of a narcissist section

These are the traits of a narcissist? According to what or whom? --71.34.91.113 (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Two of the bullet point list items are (essentially) the same:

• Difficulty with empathy
• Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people

Arbalest Mike (talk) 15:43, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, someone can have a great ability to view the world from the perspective of other people, but lack all emotional empathy. I understand that you get upset when I treat you badly, but I couldn't care less... Or the other way around: I don't understand why you get so upset by my behavior, but I get so sad when you're crying. Lova Falk talk 11:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

The Narcissism of Terror Organizations

It seems that bullying and terrorism are at least in some cases linked to terrorism. Check this out:

• The Narcissism of 'Hezbollah'

Jonniefast (talk) 10:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, talk about ignorance. 203.171.196.95 (talk) 12:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Sutter Cane

Hahaha, wow. You JIDF sure make up some ridiculous shit. 124.148.221.42 (talk) 04:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC) Harlequin

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

clear consensus for merger. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:50, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

---

I am proposing a merger of Narcissism (psychology) and Narcissism for the following reasons:

• The trait described has a lot more similarities than differences when it comes to the lay use and a large proportion of current use in psychology. i.e. (superficial) self love and themes of adoration or desire for adoration. The lay term is essentially a vernacular use of one of the central themes of the psychological term. Yes there is alot more depth to psychological discussion, but they are also explored at related articles on Malignant narcissism and Narcissistic personality disorder.

The state of the current article at narcissism lends weight to this proposal, with the first three sections psychological in nature anyway, and the last half of the article possibly bordering on original research (and if it did have scholarly work on it, would be linking to the psychological term anyway (!)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: Any scholarly sociological work will use a psychological definition anyway, so the narcissistic culture/society stuff (if able to be referenced) would be more in line with psychology than 'lay' anyway. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Support

1. . as proposer Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
2. . Suppport, there is no need for two seperate articles on narcissism.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 19:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
3. . Suppport, however the coverage of narcissism in general on Wikipedia is crap - many knowledgeable people have been frightened away in the past. Somewhere it needs to spell out what narcissistic supply, narcissistic rage, narcissistic injury, narcissistic envy, secondary narcissism, pathological narcissism all are. Also there is no mention that control freaks are often narcissists. It would also be good to tie up bullying to narcissism as bullies are often narcissistic. Narcissists often use passive-aggressive behaviour. Also a moderate level of narcissism is healthy. Too little narcissism is unhealthy and the person will be used like a doormat. Narcissism only becomes unhealthy above the midpoint on the narcissism spectrum where other people get damaged. It might be useful to try to graphically illustrate the narcissistic spectrum and show where NPD and malignant narcissism fit in. Also there needs to be explanation of the role of true self and false self in narcissism. Also the role of defense mechanisms such as projection should be mentioned. --Penbat (talk) 10:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
4. Support – no reason not to make one article of these two. Dicklyon (talk) 05:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removal

I removed two statements and three "sources" from "Cultural depictions of narcissism." The first two cite Daydism and metrosexuality as "being considered forms of narcissism." The sources are a website that critiques fashion movements and refers to Daydism as narcissistic once in passing. Likewise the article cited for metrosexuality frequently calls subject David Beckham narcissistic for being "metrosexual." However, neither of these sources meets the criteria for a reliable source, nor is the true definition of narcissism used correctly--only the pop definition of vanity. Additionally, one non-authoritative author commenting on a subject does not make those subjects "considered," only "considered by one person" and incorrectly at that.

I also removed a Kurt Cobain lyric for the same reasons of inaccuracy further propelled by the fact that the reference was a Wikipedia loop.

The section on depictions of narcissism in the listed novel subjects is appropriate and remains.Luminum (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I removed a randomly added LeBron James reference that was placed at the beginning of the article. (Anon) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.253.5.2 (talk) 15:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Restructure

The current understanding of narcissism is split between the Kohut and Kernberg models. Most of the info given about Freud and Horney is just leading the path to Kohut and Kernbergs views. Therefor i intend to downplay the Freud and Horney material. --Penbat (talk) 18:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The Importance of Valid Accreditation in Medical Articles

This is a medical article, and deserves only the best accredited, recognised and peer reviewed medical and academic sources. There is no place for reference to self published, amateur opinion. Thank You WB --90.210.84.5 (talk) 22:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Rubbish. Unlike the NPD article, this article mainly covers narcissism as an abstract concept with many differing views amongst academics. For example you have the Kernberg camp and the Kohut camp. Some psychologists such as Eysenck even dismiss Freud's views as worse than useless. Also there are now many developing sub categories of narcissism such as spiritual narcissism and are in their infancy. Apart from things like testing twins, the idea of exhaustive peer reviewing is worthless as there will always be at least 1 eminent psychologist who disagrees with something.

I think it would be best to delete medical status for this article.--Penbat (talk) 09:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Referencing Out of Date Materials

You're really using Freud as a major source? I can't think of any serious academic paper today where Freud is quoted as a source on modern psychology. He is a historic footnote, but people don't use his writings in serious academic inquiry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.74.198.10 (talk) 21:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Here, Here!!! http://discovermagazine.com/2008/feb/05-the-borderlin-whack-jobs-who-pioneered-psychoanalysis Enjoy!!  ;) 172.190.72.140 (talk) 05:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

In defense of Freud, his work at the least belongs in a historical section, as his contribution to the logical flow in the development of the modern concept on narcissism is profound. Revised substantially, of course, but nevertheless essential. If nothing else, rejected ideas of the past illuminate the reasons for the variety of counterpoints generated by them. --PaxFelix 12:16, 3 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaxFelix (talk • contribs)

Hotchkiss who?

No first name, no wiki entry, nothing. Hotchkiss who? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.249.56.45 (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2010‎ (UTC)

You only had to check the reference: "Hotchkiss, Sandy & Masterson, James F. Why Is It Always About You? : The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism (2003)" Masterson has a Wiki entry, the fact that Hotchkiss doesnt have a Wiki entry is no big deal. --Penbat (talk) 22:03, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

No it is not "no big deal". At least go add her to Hotchkiss (surname). Googling her name, here's what i've found: https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/name/Sandy_Hotchkiss_LCSW,PsyD_Pasadena_California_41492

--Jerome Potts (talk) 17:13, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Sexual Narcissism section reference

I have an issue with the reference below,as it is to a journal article that requires payment to see. I don't think that's really appropriate - freely accessible articles should be used in this case, as the named examples are otherwise meaningless. I couldn't find anything else out about Joe or Baja, so naming them seems pointless. Hurlbert argues that sex is a natural biological given and therefore cannot be deemed as an addiction. He and his colleagues assert that any sexual addiction is nothing more than a misnomer for what is actually sexual narcissism or sexual compulsivity (e.g. Joe Villanueva, Baja Captain).[46] Snorgle (talk) 15:50, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Gender Narcissism?

Who the heck is Gerald Schoenwolf anyways? A google search revealed that he also believes in conversion therapy (using theraputic methods to turn homosexual persons straight) and is an overall wackjob. He's a part of NARTH, for christ's sake. I don't think his theories need to be taken seriously, and definitely don't belong on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.190.212.45 (talk) 03:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I just made some changes to this section after realizing that the two citations presented are for the same article on the NARTH website. I hope the changes offer a more balanced take on Schoenwolf's whacked out psychology which, though certainly not mainstream, is arguably notable given that the guy has his own Criticism section on the NARTH page (for saying similarly stupid and offensive things as those in the article on gender narcissism). I would ask that anyone deciding to reverse my changes announce their intention on the talk page so that consensus can be achieved on how to present Schoenwolf's views. Egmetcalfe (talk) 04:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Why are Katy Perry and David Letterman listed under "See also"?

I understand why Bono is listed. And even though global warming is a very real problem, I also understand why Al Gore is listed. But I don't know why those two are listed, and unless I can find some actual examples of narcissism from them, and since their articles don't mention any, I'll likely assume that someone on here has an axe to grind!

I think I'll Be Bold™ and remove both hyperlinks. If you find evidence, you can add 'em back! 4.248.56.49 (talk) 02:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

All four were added two days ago [1] and are completely inappropriate. I have removed the other two. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe this page should mention how a big part of Narcissism has to do with the fact that Narcissist are really self-loathing and are just using a defense mechanism to try to make themselves feel better about themselves. By constantly acting like they are something special they hope to start to believe this.

--Speterson6 (talk) 22:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC) Speterson6

potential resource

• Alice Miller (psychologist)#The Drama of the Gifted Child (Das Drama des begabten Kindes, 1979) 99.19.43.169 (talk) 10:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

just different degrees of the same thing.

hi, I'm platitudes. I'm a big-time user on reddit and I know a lot about Narcissism. For example, in a recent reply to a thread, I wrote that the "wide range of meanings" discussed in the introduction are simply different degrees of the same thing. So I would like to share my knowledge with the world and let them know. Please enable me asap so I can make these important edits. Thanks. You can see my mastery of the topic at http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/n4uon/men_of_reddit_has_a_girl_ever_rejected_you_but/c36dsra?context=3

Update: I am now convinced that "wide range of meanings" actually only refers to like, two meanings. But, you have missed an important THIRD definition, the colloquial one. Yeah, I know you editors have degrees and whatnot, but you missed the colloquial meaning of narcissistic which means "self-important, egotistic, and vain."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Platitudeonreddit (talk • contribs) 04:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

self respect

should mention how even though narcissists have high self esteem, they have very little self respect, doing things they believe to be wrong habitually. this article is incredibly unsympathetic towards narcissists, narcissism is a defense mechanism. i realize this article includes colloquial definitions too but its really important that people actually understand that narcissists are not evil. this isnt a sympathetic article. its of extreme importance that someone puts something more sympathetic in, part of the nature of this mental illness is that the narcissist thinks of other narcissists as evil because they dont have any respect for themselves. i'll do something if just to have something there, but im not good at writing in "encyclopedia prose" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.15.165.150 (talk) 01:56, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

LA Times resource

Narcissistic men may pay a price--worse health by Jeannine Stein, January 23, 2012, 2:25 p.m.

99.181.152.120 (talk) 23:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Egotism, Egocentrism, Egomania

Should egotism, egocentrism, and egomania be merged here, or at least into a new single page for the three of them? 128.138.43.231 (talk) 18:53, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 March 2012

Wanted to submit a link for another external reference on a study of social media and narcissism. If this isn't the place of I should be using another forum, please let me know.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/mar/17/facebook-dark-side-study-aggressive-narcissism

Tym2think (talk) 17:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Tym2think (talk) 17:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Not done: It seems like this is only tangentially related to narcissism. The Facebook article or the Social media article might be better. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 02:56, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Weak citation on narcissism inflation

Since 2000, on psychological tests designed to detect narcissism, the scores of residents of the United States have continually increased. Psychologists have suggested a link to social networking.

This cites a Time Magazine article which throws this out without any proper citation itself.

Probably a better citation:

Trzesniewski, K.H. & Donnellan, M.B. (2010). Rethinking “Generation Me”: A study of cohort effects from 1976–2006. Perspectives in Psychological Science, 5, 58–75.

Found at the bottom of Reflecting on narcissism.

— MaxEnt 19:22, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Malignant Narcissism

This section conveys only Eric Fromm's original suggestion about Malignant Narcissism, which I have to admit is consistent with the General Medical use of the word, "malignant," as in malignant neoplasm or malignant hypertension. That is, it indicates a runaway course of illness, one that has entered a positive feedback loop.

Nevertheless, Kernberg's use of the term is the more significant in terms of clinical utility, and, I suggest, anthropology, as it applies to the tyrants of history (Nero, Caligula, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, and many more). There is a section in the Wikipedia article on Malignant Narcissism that captures this fairly well with its use of the word "sadism," though this could be expanded by a discussion of the extreme cruelty and dehumanizing exploitation with which these individuals treat others.

Further, I suggest that an immensely valuable conversation relating this matter to Kant's Practical Imperative, "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end,"(see Categorical_imperative) could be had. As a clinical psychiatrist, I feel less qualified for such an entry than one of the philosophers among Wikipedia's contributors would be. --PaxFelix 12:33, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Commodity Narcissism

I'd like to add a section on narcissism among consumers. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_narcissism — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertcluley (talk • contribs) 15:22, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

addition to narcisim in the media section

• Dr, Percival Cox from the TV show Scrubs is a self confessed narcisist and should be in the list Dungeonseeker (talk) 18:51, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• Due to the fact, that I can't do it: Please put the character of barney stinson (how i met your mother) to the notoric narcissist in media. (Sagehorn (talk) 12:54, 16 July 2012 (UTC))

incorrect

I would change:

In everyday speech INCORRECTLY, "narcissism" often means egoism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness

because like we all should know that is not what narcissism is about :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohel003 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Hotchkiss' seven deadly sins of narcissism

Hotchkiss is a clinician who knows a lot about narcissists but her book is written in an unscientific, way-too-broad style. Just for an example, I quote from the article: "Narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves." This is almost literally cited from her book. However, of course, narcissists know that others are separate and not extensions of themselves - unless they are deep down in a psychosis. I don't have any sources that criticize her statements, or sources that express the things she says in a more precise way. What to do with this text??? Lova Falk talk 16:56, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Does it help that the book has a foreword by James F. Masterson, a leading academic on personality disorders and narcissism ? Anyway the point made seems quite valid to me that narcissists just use certain people as narcissistic supply and not separate entities. Do you understand narcissistic supply ?--Penbat (talk) 17:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes I do. And I am well aware that the author knows a lot. The thing is, I would agree with her if only she would have written in a less definite style: "Narcissists have difficulties recognizing that..." or, the "tendency to disregard others except in temporary idealization of narcissistic supply" (quote from Kernberg), that would have been fine by me. I have a problem with these very definite statements about the condition though. Lova Falk talk 17:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

For me it means that certain people (but not necessarily all) are treated by the narcissist as objects, only there to provide some sort of nurture, similar to the master v servant/slave relationship. The point being that the narcissist doesnt acknowledge that the other person has feelings as an independant person etc, as per dehumanisation. The narcissist treats the other person as if that person only exists for his benefit to be used & manipulated etc. Therefore the narcissist feels free to violate that persons boundaries in a way required by his modus operandi.--Penbat (talk) 17:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not that I don't understand or even protest against what she is saying. Hotchkiss is an experienced clinician who has worked with a lot of narcissists, and her observations and thoughts are intelligent. However, it is just observations and thoughts, it is not a scientific theory, the things she writes are not peer reviewed. For instance, "certain people (but not necessarily all) are treated by the narcissist as objects, only there to provide some sort of nurture" - well, that might be very much how it looks like, but how do we know if this is true?? How do we know that the way the narcissist treats certain people is not far more complicated and intricate??? Lova Falk talk 18:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Any way we can get the Hotchkiss BS off WP? Everything written there is so black and white. Stereotypes and generalizations man. They taught us those things are bad in grade school, they're equally bad here as well. Your display of ignorance on the matter, while forgivable, does in fact make you a an ignorant person, and possibly a narcissist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.8.143.187 (talk) 06:57, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Examples of narcissism in the media

This section contains a long unsourced list in which it seems that any selfish (J. R. Ewing) or self-confident (Patrick Jane) character gets a place. A list of examples should make the concept more clear, but in this way, it makes it less clear. I propose to remove the whole unsourced list and only have examples left that have sources stating that they are narcissists. Lova Falk talk 08:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments, please? Lova Falk talk 13:48, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

These popular culture sections on Wikipedia articles (and the theme in this one is popular culture, rather than the media) are a distraction: stuff gets put in from currently popular films or TV shows without good reason, and without really illuminating the topic. The To Die For example has an academic source associated with it, but you'd be absolutely right to remove everything that's unsourced or merely sourced to things like YouTube. MartinPoulter (talk) 17:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Agree & please extirpate. These type of sections tend towards the creation of lists or single sentences providing single unrelated examples. If narcissism in popular culture is a well-researched topic it should be possible to construct at least one paragraph of meaningful prose. This might discuss a variety of related or contrasting examples of narcissism in popular culture that either elucidates narcissism as a concept, or its popular reception, or its importance to and influence on some form of cultural production. If there is to be such a section a source would have to be found discussing the topic in general rather than an instance where character X in RomCom Y was described by some movie reviewer as narcissistic.FiachraByrne (talk) 23:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I've only given this source a very brief glance, but it, or something like it, might provide a structure for constructing such a section. Either way, editors should look at secondary sources first to determine if there is a topic there worthy of addition in the first instance.FiachraByrne (talk) 23:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Such a pity, I cannot see the source you give. It is a blank page for me. Could you write something inspired by that source? Lova Falk talk 08:48, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I don't think you're missing so much from that source but I can try and cobble something together in a week or so. FiachraByrne (talk) 12:24, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Whenever you have the time and the inspiritation! Lova Falk talk 19:39, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Wow! Great job!! Lova Falk talk 18:57, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you so much. It's still at a development stage, however. I've left a few remarks of what I'd like to do on construction tag which I've placed in section. I'll try to get that finished pretty quickly. FiachraByrne (talk) 15:54, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Take your time, no need to get stressed. Lova Falk talk 18:02, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Disappointing. --86.169.155.19 (talk) 22:25, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Found a new source online

[2] Interesting read about business.--v/r - TP 15:05, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Interesting but not a reliable source... Lova Falk talk 15:20, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Interesting take. Is this article entirely medical?--v/r - TP 16:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Good point! No, probably not. Lova Falk talk 06:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

spiritual narcissism

Is it just me, or is the cited reference http://www.integralworld.net/larsson.html, just a PR-spam attack on whoever Ken Wilber is? I see one sentance describing spiritual narcissism, and a whole page of ad hominem attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.0.139.51 (talk) 05:30, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Page Vandalism of Introductory Paragraph

I had to conduct an expeditious emergency edit of the page because I was merely reading the article when I noted that the introductory paragraph had been edited to include a potentially defamatory statement about an individual.

" **** of **** is the biggest reported narcissist in the known world he has all known traits and should seek immediate help."

I felt sorry for the poor chap (I haven't a clue who the named individual is) so I dashed in to excise the potentially defamatory statement.

Celestial Canvas (talk) 04:51, 4 June 2014 (UTC)Celestial Canvas

Workplace

There is potential for eventually expanding the Narcissism#Workplace section into a new narcissism in the workplace article. Similarly there could be a psychopathy in the workplace article.--Penbat (talk) 19:04, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Lede

There is no citation for the lede's statement: "Narcissism is the pursuit of gratification from vanity". The next part: "egotistic admiration of one's own attributes" is clearer and a more conventional definition. The first part is a rather quirky definition of narcissism and is not entirely understandable without an elaboration. I can see that it is a narcissistic trait, but it's more peripheral than central to the definition. I think it will also be confusing for most people. I recommend the first sentence read "narcissism is the eqotistic admiration of one's own attributes" with the other part omitted from the lede and explained elsewhere in the article. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 22:22, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Narcissus instead of Nárkissos

I'm new here. That's why I'm wondering about the use of the latin Narcissus instead of Nárkissos (Νάρκισσος). After all, the guy in question was not a Roman. Perheps the reason of the latin spelling is the tradition of Ovid's poem. Anyway, I stumbled on it. Maybe it would help to make this point clear in the article. I don't dare to do so by myself 'cause I'm not sure whether my English is sufficient. --Tavor Meier (talk) 12:09, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Hotchkiss

There might be something wrong with this sentence: "Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways." Is shame the inability to process shame in healthy ways? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tavor Meier (talk • contribs) 15:32, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree here. In addition, that sentence is supposed to be a description of an entry named "shamelessness", as a "deadly sin of narcissism". The whole thing makes no sense. --Jerome Potts (talk) 17:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Repeated text

From Narcissistic supply#In workplace relationships

Main article: Narcissism in the workplace

The narcissistic manager will have two main sources of narcissistic supply: inanimate (status symbols like cars, gadgets or office views); and animate (flattery and attention from colleagues and subordinates). Teammates may find everyday offers of support swiftly turn them into enabling sources of permanent supply, unless they are very careful to maintain proper boundaries. The narcissistic manager's need to protect such supply networks will prevent objective decision-making. Such a manager will evaluate long-term strategies according to their potential for gaining personal attention.

From Narcissism in the workplace#Narcissistic supply

Main article: Narcissistic supply

The narcissistic manager will have two main sources of narcissistic supply: inanimate (status symbols like cars, gadgets or office views); and animate (flattery and attention from colleagues and subordinates). Teammates may find everyday offers of support swiftly turn them into enabling sources of permanent supply, unless they are very careful to maintain proper boundaries. The narcissistic manager's need to protect such supply networks will prevent objective decision-making. Such a manager will evaluate long-term strategies according to their potential for gaining personal attention.

From Status symbol #Narcissistic supply

Main articles: Narcissistic supply and Narcissism in the workplace

The narcissistic manager will have two main sources of narcissistic supply: inanimate - status symbols like cars, gadgets or office views; and animate - flattery and attention from colleagues and subordinates.

From Narcissism#Narcissism in the workplace

Main article: Narcissism in the workplace

The narcissistic manager will have two main sources of narcissistic supply: inanimate - status symbols like cars, gadgets or office views; and animate - flattery and attention from colleagues and subordinates. Teammates may find everyday offers of support swiftly turn them into enabling sources of permanent supply, unless they are very careful to maintain proper boundaries. The need to protect such supply networks will prevent the narcissistic managers from taking objective decisions; while long-term strategies will be evaluated according to their potential for attention-gaining for the manager themself.

References
References

Discussion

This nearly identical text appears in four articles. It's not clear which one is the "main article." Can we reduce duplication and just have this text in one place? 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36 (talk) 10:43, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this. @Penbat:, this seems to be your text. What are you going to do to fix this problem? Note that in the Status symbol article, the sentence is a total non sequitur, because it's not stated what Narcissistic supply is nor how it's related to the topic of the article. MartinPoulter (talk) 22:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

OP apparently raised this issue at Penbat's user talkpage back in October without response. Off the top of my head, it doesn't seem to belong in the Status symbol article. I wonder if the other two articles (Narcissism in the workplace and Narcissistic supply) should be merged with this one anyway considering their short length and the redundancy. What do you think, MartinPoulter (and anyone else who sees this)? —PermStrump(talk) 00:51, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Narcissism in the workplace is one of a set of three articles, the others being psychopathy in the workplace and Machiavellianism in the workplace. They are linked together as a set as they are components of the dark triad in the workplace context - see dark triad#In the workplace. So, apart from any other considerations, it makes no sense to merge narcissism in the workplace with narcissism.--Penbat (talk) 08:11, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to take the bold step of removing the paragraph from Status symbol: not that that article should never mention narcissism, but it needs to be with text that makes sense in the context of the article and introduces the relevant context. Penbat's response says nothing about that article. I don't see a need to merge Narcissism in the workplace and Narcissistic supply, even if they are presently short, because they are separate topics with presumably separate literatures. Cheers, MartinPoulter (talk) 11:50, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

And now I note User:Permstrump has already done this. Thanks! MartinPoulter (talk) 11:52, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

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Trump

Should link this wiki article with Trump. 81.96.62.131 (talk) 23:03, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

 Not done Would be in violation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV.--Ddcm8991 (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2016 (UTC)