Talk:Lyndon B. Johnson

Talk:Lyndon B. Johnson/Archive1

OBVIOUS REVISION / CONTRADICTION

It says at top he withdrew because "his reelection bid in 1968 collapsed as a result of turmoil in his party." But later in the article it says he withdrew because massive antiwar sentiment (29% public approval is the figure cited) stood in the way of him being renominated.

Why lie at the top and tell the truth at the bottom?

Let's do this:

"Turmoil in his party" is a nice and uncontroversial (therefore fair) reason to give, so it should be preserved in it's present place. However, the bottom section will need to be gutted and something more optimistic, but not contradicting to earlier revisionism, be published instead.

Here is an example of what nobody would like to see at the top: "...his reelection bid in 1968 collapsed as a result of widespread public disapproval with the war".

there are no "lies" -- the two statements describe the same situation. The Vietnam situation was the last straw in 1968, but there were multiple factors, such as race riots and the strong sense that LBJ had lost control. The Dem party was splitting 4 ways (LBJ-Humphrey, Kennedy, McCarthy, Wallace) and each goup despised the other 3. That made reelection highly unlikely. Dropping out opened up new possibilities--LBJ might become a hero by ending the war. Rjensen 09:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You are deliberately trying to obfuscate the reason why Johnson withdrew from the race: widespread opposition to his Vietnam policies.

Here is the text you added to the 1968 section to make it correlate with the lie in the introductory section (That he withdrew because of "turmoil" within his party)...

"Johnson had lost control of the Democratic party, which was splitting into four factions, each of which despised the other three. The first comprised Johnson (and Humphrey), labor unions, and local party bosses (led by Mayor Richard J. Daley; the second group comprised students and intellectuals who were vociferous against the war, and rallied behind McCarthy. The third group comprised Catholics, ethnics and blacks; they rallied behind Robert Kennedy. The fourth group were traditional white Southerners, who rallied behind George C. Wallace and his third party. Vietnam was one of many issues that splintered the party. and Johnson could see no way to united the party long enough for him to win reelection. On the other hand, he could avoid defeat in November by withdrawing from the race, keeping control of the party machinery by giving the nomination to Humphrey, and assure his place in history by ending the war before the election."

First off, the Democratic Party, just as the Republican party to a lesser extent, already existed as a factious party, and always has. In fact, most political parties don't exist in the hegemonious state which you seem to infer. The "factions" you mentioned, such as the "blacks", "ethnics", "vociferous student intellectuals", and "traditional whites" (oh, such wonderful bias!) had already existed well before the 1968 primaries. So, unless you can find reasonable evidence that these "factions" did not exist before, and were indeed created by the 1968 primary election, and ultimately led to Johnson's withdrawal, I expect any mention of them to be excised from the article. Simply stating that "a bunch 'a factions happened" doesn't make it so.

Johson withdrew because widespread opposition to his Vietnam policies rendered him incapable of being renominated. Only four years earlier he had won the highest percentage of the popular vote in modern history. In 1968, with no credible Democratic challenger, he didn't even bother campagning for renomination. However, the Tet Offensive had severely diminished public support for the war by the time of the New Hampshire primary (Mar12), when McCarthy scored a surprising 42% to Johnson's 49%. A Gallup poll conducted that month found that only 36% approved of his conduct of the presidency (v. 48% in January, before Tet); only 26% approved of his conduct of the war (v. 39%). [Time, Apr. 5, 1968]. "A variety of pollsters reported that "frustration" with Johnson's Vietnam policy was eroding the president's general approval rating.(1)" "The public's dissatisfaction with Johnson's overall performance and its dissatisfaction with his handling of Vietnam are closely interrelated. Previous research concerning the impact of the war's declining popularity on Johnson's falling job rating is echoed in the White House's own analysis (Mueller 1973; Page and Shapiro 1992, esp. 228-32)."

The "factions" you mention already existed. It was widespread opposition to the war which rendered Johnson incapable of retaining his party's unified support. Robert Kennedy's anti-war candidacy rendered renomination unimaginable. Thus, it was antiwar sentiment that forced Johnson to withdraw. I cannot find a more clear and concise reason.

Minor points:

You also say that each "faction" within the Democratic party at this time "despised" the other three. This sounds like nonsense from a childrens book. Isn't it enough to say they had opposing agendas? Please, teach us how they "despised" each other.

When was it ever the presidents job to "control" his party? Is this really the way you look at things? It would seem to me that most presidents and their parties would consider the office-holder to serve the party, rather than "control" it. Does GWBush "control" the Republican Party? I can see little evidence of it, but plenty to the contrary. (You seem to have a rather cynical view of democratic process, leading me to wonder if you are even American.)

Also, you state as a reason for withdrawal to "assure his place in history" by "ending the war before the election". Since when did it become a legitimate presidential function, especially during wartime, to "assure one's place in history"? This, like everything else you've written, seems rather ignorant.

PS. In August of '68, Gallup found for the first time that a majority of Americans, 53%, said it was a mistake to send troops to Vietnam.

(1) LBJ, Moyers, Box 12, Memo to Moyers from Redmon (regarding conversation with George Gallup), September 27, 1966; LBJ, Panzer, Box 215, "A Survey of the Political Climate in Nassau County, New York" (forwarded to LBJ, September 7, 1966), by Quayle, August 1966.

Mueller, John. 1973. War, presidents, and public opinion. New York: John Wiley.

Page, Benjamin I., and Robert Y. Shapiro. 1983. Effects of public opinion on policy. American Political Science Review 77:175-90.

--. 1992. The rational public: Fifty years of trends in Americans' policy preferences. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Warren Commission

I removed the biased and somewhat irrelevant paragraphs about the activities of the Warren Commission, those are best addressed elsewhere, not in the "policies" section of this bio. Kmerian 01:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I tried, but I guess an admin though that the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist were relevant to the Policies of LBJ. Kmerian 01:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Domino Theory Speech

The article says he alluded to this theory in a speech. Does anyone know the date?--HistoricalPisces 16:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

he often referred to it private (recorded in the LBJ tapes) but I don't know of any public reference.

Caro Quote

Does anyone know about this vote rigging from Caro? It's a controversial thing to put in here, but if he really did prove it then it's certainly noteworthy. DirectorStratton 02:21, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how we can possibly assert that an author proved something like this "beyond a reasonable doubt". That's clearly POV. I'm leaving in the reference but deleting the passage that tells the reader what conclusion to draw. JamesMLane 22:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Caro interviewed numerous people and presents a huge amount of evidence, but "proven" is a strong word. The man's dead, so he has no way to answer the charges. I don't know that there's anyone who challenges it though.

I did make a minor correction, the vote rigging was alleged to have occured in Duval County not Jim Wells County. 16:59 10 April 2006

Some Additions Needed

New to this but I think someone needs to add some more details re: LBJ's civil rights initiatives and his work to help get the bills passed. This article, like much LBJ history unfortunately, dwells too much on a Vietnam war inherited from Kennedy and not enough on the positives. Someone should also mention his Whitehouse taping system and the remarkable historical record they are (as well as foreshadowing considering the trouble Nixon got into with taping.)

Regarding the earlier question about Caro's comments on the 1948 primary, Caro's assertions have been reported by others for years. I wrote a term paper on Johnson in the 1970's and found multiple sources that said the same thing as Caro. I would agree that Caro saying he clearly proved the allegation is solely Caro's opinion. Even as a Democrat who admires what Johnson did on domestic agenda, I still think the allegations need to be noted. Maybe more sources need to be cited for the allegations.

The above comments about Johnson's domestic agenda being expanded upon are correct. As the History Channel's series The Presidents, which re-ran the week of Thanksgiving, argued the programs Johnson created and the bills Johnson signed whether you like the measures or not probably had more change on our society than any president in the 20th Century other than Franklin Roosevelt.

The discussion on Vietnam is something that could take 20 pages. Actually the first Americans were sent to Vietnam by Eisenhower and the first American was killed in Vietnam in 1959.

Many who have studied Johnson believe he agreed to the escalation in part because he didn't want to appear as soft on Communism. Democrats beginning in 1950 were constantly being charged as soft by people like Joseph McCarthy as silly as those allegations seem today. Look at what was said about Harry Truman and why he had a 23% approval rating near the end of his administration. I saw on C-Span a replay on political conventions a number of years ago and the Republicans at their 1960 convention in Chicago railed against the Kennedy-Johnson ticket as soft on Communism.

Daisy

I think this link belongs in the 1964 election part. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_%28television_commercial%29

Vietnam War: LBJ ordered assassination of Diem?

In the section on the Vietnam War, Wikipedia states:

"While still Vice President, President Johnson ordered the execution of the president of South Vietnam in 1963, which he discusses in a White House recording made in 1966."

Has this ever been proven? The Vice President has no authority to give such orders.

You're quite right and I removed it. Rjensen 22:05, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

All The Way Campaign

As an Australian, the only way I know this man is the 'All the way with LBJ' campaign used, I'm not even sure whether it was an election campaign or a campaign for the continuance of the Vietnam war. Perhaps the authors and editors of this article could incorporate that, which, for the rest of the world outside of the United States, is possibly the only way this man is known and in what context it was used. 211.30.80.121 01:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

It was a slogan in the 1964 election campaign. I'm surprised that that's what you know about him; it's not particularly prominent. Instead of adding it to this article, I've added it to U.S. presidential election, 1964, and added a wikilink to that article in this one. JamesMLane 06:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Bitchcunt?

Lets clean this up my fellow Wikipedia, the man was a great man, i mean yes he suxed bad when it came to war, but in domestic programs he was the man, he highered standards that all of us take for gratite(sp) today. HP465 19:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I r gay. lol!

"At the same time, Johnson was afraid that too much focus on Vietnam would distract attention from his Great Society programs, so the levels of military escalation, while significant, were never enough to make any real headway in the war."

This is opinion rather than fact. Regardless of the fact that Johnson stuck in a hell of a lot of troops, there is absolutely no indication that ANY level of military escalation would have made headway in Vietnam.

Bias

It's amazing how biased this article is against Johnson. It said he an egomaniac and vain on the trivia, for example. I took out most of the POV and streamlined some text to make it flow better. Hadoren 20:45, May 26 2006 (UTC)

               Well, he did give the pope a bust of himself.

GA on hold

I'm about ready to confirm the article's nomination but before I do so I think the trivia section should be eliminated. Important personal information like his baptisim should probably go in his "early years" section; overly personal information like his height and bathroom habits should probably be axed. TonyJoe 14:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I would definitely advocate keeping the part about the bathroom. It is a fairly well known (infamous?) portion of "the Johnson Treatment". -Fearfulsymmetry 01:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Failed

For being on hold for over a week.--SeizureDog 11:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Bricker Amendment

For some time I have been working on revisions to the Bricker Amendment article. I finally posted it and have a PR at Wikipedia:Peer review/Bricker Amendment. I'd welcome comments. I know all those references may seem extravagant, but I'm hoping to get it as an FA and those voters want lots of footnotes. PedanticallySpeaking 16:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I added the Howard University commencement address

As requested in the merge suggestion. Morris 04:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

a few points and some Con/NeoCon propaganda

I see it's getting a few dozen changes a week. Never a good sign for an article about an ancient topic.

Where it writes "Johnson once revealed on tape his strategy in making African Americans feel obligated to the Democrats, by transforming them into the party of welfare dependency, rather than self sufficiency:" one has to remember that (1) the quote does not justify the connection, (2) the actual distinction between movements was "let blacks vote" and "don't let blacks vote", (3) many blacks and mexicans were not experiencing "self-sufficiency" so much as near-synonym "denied education and work by discrimination and left to starve" the explicit motivation for the Great Society, (4) whites were the primary benefactors of public assistance into the Reagan Era, though blacks may have had disproportionately high representation per population, they had disproportionately low representation per their much higher poverty rate.

Another quote directly contradicts the propaganda reading above, by being explicitly about self-sufficiency "I'm going to try to teach these Nigras that don't know anything how to work for themselves, instead of just breeding. I'm going to try to teach these Mexicans [that] can't talk English to learn it, so they can work for themselves." Our article attempts to misread the clause "that don't know anything" as an appositive (i.e. as a redefinition of "Nigra"), but of course it's not. It's a direct statement that uneducated "Nigras" need education, not to be left to rot.

And of course this and other articles try to make hay of his use of "Nigra", as if there were a widely accepted, well-used alternative, or as if the term had already developed the explictly pejorative modern sense of "Nigger" (pre-NWA, of course). Any white alive in the era remembers how hard it was to figure out what phraseology was acceptable each week (Black Race, Black American, American Black, Afro-American, African American, etc.).

Discussion of failure of Vietnam war can't be complete without reference to Nixon's intentional sabotage of Paris Peace Talks (for which there is no article and hardly any mention) through the agency of [Anna Chen Chennault] (no mention of this incident) and the GOP mole in the Paris Peace talks [Henry Kissinger]. (Googling "Chennault Nixon Thieu" gives a few hundred references, or just read her autobiography or Kissinger's.) Also, [J. Edgar Hoover]'s FBI taped Nixon's communication with Chennault but declined to inform Johnson (it was leaked to him about a week before the election).