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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mallimak (talk | contribs) at 22:27, 3 October 2006 (Mais oui! constantly makes sockpuppet allegations which are not credible - please block him). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome!

This archived discussion (Talk Page Abuse) reveals the truth of the situation!

Serial sockpuppeteer Mallimak (talk · contribs) is using sockpuppet account User:Orkadian to spam multiple Talk pages. The {{talkheader}} template has been removed and the spam repeatedly re-added. I request admin intervention:

--Mais oui! 12:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Example diff: [1]. --Mais oui! 12:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Provide evidence that Orkadian is a sockpuppet of Mallimak, please. It seems to me that Orkadian has become rather upset by your persistent accusations that he/she is a sockpuppet, and I can't see any evidence for that. --ajn (talk) 12:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Mallimak. --Mais oui! 12:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's hardly the most convincing checkuser result I have ever seen. It's equally likely that they happen to be editing from the same geographical area, and object to your stance on Orkney (oddly, quite different from your usual stance on regional and nationalist issues). --ajn (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please also see: [2]. There is a multitude of evidence. But that is not the point: what are you going to do about the Talk page abuse? --Mais oui! 12:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A suggestion, why not protect the talk page to [edit=sysop move=sysop] to prevent him from adding spam?? --LiverpoolCommander 12:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is part of a long standing conflict between the users and a more in depth look at the conduct of Mallimak, Orkadian and Mais oui! is in order.Inge 12:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Is a Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mallimak a suitable thing to proceed with?? --LiverpoolCommander 12:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to be fair I would suggest a simultaneous Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mais oui! or a combined one. The bits and pieces of the conflict I have seen lead me to believe that both these users could do with some helpfull hints. It seems IMHO that this is part of a complexe content dispute where one user is good at utilising wiki rules and the other is not. Inge 12:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Wangi is very well-informed on this topic, although he has just had a Wikibreak, and so missed the last episode about a week ago. --Mais oui! 12:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
One user is trying to insert the notion that Orkney has a special identity separate from the Scottish one and has been adding information regarding that to relevant articles. The user has also created stubs, categories and a portal to deal with Orkney subjects. The other user is asserting that Orkney is not any more different from the rest of Scotland than any other part of Scotland and has been removing such information from relevant articles and requesting the stub-templates and so on to be deleted. I think that is the core of this problem. In the process both users may have stepped over the line. The hows, ifs and whens need to be determined, proper guidance need to be given to the users and a permanent solution to the core dispute needs to be found. The articles involved are so low profile that it seems to be very difficult for the few users involved to get there on their own. Inge 13:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that overview, Inge. I think that Orkney should be counted as Scotland, as it is technically Scottish and not a sovereign state. This content dispute should be taken to a WikiProject who could assist with this incident. --LiverpoolCommander|Commander' 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the Orcadian users are claiming that Orkney is not a part of Scotland, but that the people who live there share an identity as Orcadians and that that identity is more or less considered separate from being Scottish. I don't think I am quite able to convey that situation acurately, but I would like to inform that I have the personal opinion that Orkney (and Shetland) claims of being different does have some creedence. They are not just another area of Scotland (allthough they are very much politically and legally part of that country) and history, geneaology and (former) linguistics back that up. But that really isn't the issue right now :) Inge 22:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comming back to the immediate issue, rather than the underlying problem...

One thing that needs to stop is the constant reverting an readding of Orkadian's comment on various talk pages. While the comment is not about the articles themself it's not worth getting into an edit war about. However the comment needs to be kept out of the article and category namespace and Orkadian has not readded them since I pointed this out. I'll pass on commenting on the comment itself...

I'm disappointed that Orkadian/Maillimak are not making any constructive edits. After this is an encyclopedia - and writting it is our goal, if you're just here to dick around with turf wars then...

I'm not convinced Orkadian and Maillimak are a single person, but if it is two people they're acting in close cooperation. I'll keep an eye on things, but i'm as busy as ever and back travelling tomorrow... Thanks/wangi 13:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I think the user(s) were initially trying to make constructive edits, but were over-enthusiastic and were then frustrated by Mais Oui!'s uncharacteristic objection to petty regionalism. I spotted this dispute a while ago, when MO listed the Orkney portal for deletion. Orkney does have a quite different history to the rest of Scotland, and Mais Oui!'s "just a council area" stance really doesn't do that justice. --ajn (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I support that view. I believe if a couple of outside editors would like to involve themselves more in depth the articles affected could be very much improved and the users in conflict could be guided back on track to the future benefit of Wikipedia. If we let this issue go now we will just find it again on a later date and/or loose valuable contributions. I see these request for help pages as somewhat of a jungle so if someone knows a more appropriate place to take this issue, please do so and give a link here. Inge 12:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mallimak is not blocked, I am at a looss to understand why he would use sockpuppets, but there is not much doubt in my mind that Orkadian and Gruelliebelkie are either sockpuppets or meatpuppets. That said, Mais Oui! is unquestionably prone to strong opinions and there is not a great deal of evidence of these disputants making any real attempt to find common ground. Any RfC should be a joint one, and should be called something like "Orkneys islands" rather than singling out one side or the other, there being evident fault on both. On the practical level I don't see that there are so many articles on the Orkneys as to make a separate portal necessary or desirable, but if people want to have one and link it from the Scotland portal then I don't really see how that would violate policy, since Orkadians unquestionably do have a separate identity at some level. Not that we are here to Right Great Wrongs, but I don't see any neutrality issue in dealing with the Orkneys as thematic set of articles. This is, of course, a superficial view. Guy 12:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad to see that there are some people here who have recognised what is going on. At the beginning I had so much to offer Wikipedia, and I made a start on contributing Orkney-related articles, an area of knowledge I know a great deal about. But then I encountered Mais oui!

I think it all started with his objection to the use of the term “Orcadian”, and he started replacing it everywhere with “Scottish”. Now let’s get this straight once and for all, “Orcadian” is an accepted term used to describe somebody from Orkney, and it is widely used – and for good reason, it pin-points the origin and culture of the person so described much more precisely than the term “Scottish”. (Furthermore, there are many in Orkney (and indeed Shetland) who object to being described as “Scottish”.) I have never claimed that “Orcadian” is a nationality, but neither, note, is “Scottish” a nationality. If Wikipedia is going to be consistent, the correct nationality is “British”! (I’ve not looked into it, but there must be analogous situations like Frankish/Bavarian/German or Frisian/Dutch.) I have never claimed that Orkney is a “sovereign state”, but note, Scotland is also not a “sovereign state”.

Anyway, it seems that I had inadvertently strayed into a territory that Mais oui! claims for his own. For example, it was he that set up the Portal:Scotland – but would he allow me to set up a Portal:Orkney – oh no! Incidentally, there is a Portal:Cornwall, and nobody seems to object to that.

Everything on Orkney that I contributed to Wikipedia had to be part of Mais oui’s domain, and he edited my articles in such a way to make sure that they were. Talk about WP:OWN.

I have plenty of encyclopaedic Orkney-related articles to contribute to Wikipedia, but what’s the point when Mais oui twists them and uses them as fodder to feed his own POV agenda. Personally, I feel Mais oui! should be banned from Wikipedia – he is distorting the project and putting off other contributors. He violently attacks users who disagree with him – sockpuppet allegations seeming to be his favourite form of attack. (Yes, shortly after Orkadian came onto the scene I did get in touch with him, and yes I am now in regular contact with him - but he is not me.) Out of frustration I have tried to retaliate against Mais oui!, but as accurately observed by Inge “one user is good at utilising wiki rules and the other is not”, and I am the one who is not - and why should I be? I didn’t come here to have my time and effort wasted by this kind of nonsense.

I have given up in despair. Until Mais oui! is banned (or at least banned from editing any article I contribute), there is absolutely no point in my contributing any further articles to Wikipedia. If you want to read NPOV encyclopaedic articles about Orkney, written by people who live here or have a close association with the islands and therefore know what they are talking about, I suggest you look out for our independent site.

Writing is my goal, not (as wangi puts it) “to dick around with turf wars“ – that’s Mais oui!’s specialism.

Mallimak 21:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Mallimak, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  -- zzuuzz (talk) 12:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tagging stubs

Please don't use use {{Orkney-bio-stub}} on articles like Thomas Webster, where the only connection mentioned to Orkney is having been born there. It's generally accepted that stubs should be tagged by nationality and by primary area of notability (often relating to their occupation); tagging simply by region of birth if of very little use to anyone, especially as regards likelihood of the article being expanded on that basis. Alai 14:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Rv blatant vandalism"

Content disputes are not "vandalism", however much you may disagree with the edit you find it necessary to revert. I'm asking you both to refrain from needless escalation of the existing dispute with such loose use of terminology. Alai 16:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User page

I hope you don't mind me editing your userpage, but there is no need to keep those sockpuppet notices under the circumstances. Astrotrain 19:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

AFD

Mais oui! has nominated Orcadian for deletion. You can have your say at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Orcadian. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Orcadian Wikipedians - Scandinavian too?

Please see the discussion at Category talk:Orcadian Wikipedians#Scandinavian too?. Thanks/wangi 13:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And please discuss on the talk page, not in edit summaries! /wangi 15:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proper source?

I don't mean to sound snobby but a guide book is unlikely to be a good enough source for us in the Orkney article. Does the book itself give a reference for this claim? Please check out WP:RS and also WP:NPA; you're not going to prevail here by insulting others. --Guinnog 16:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry about it

I'm sorry you haven't hit it off with Mais; I know he is a decent editor. I suppose 'annexation' is a word with connotations he didn't like. I hope you see now the merit of my point about insulting people. If you do think he is following you around, the best thing you could do is contact him directly and politely ask him not to. Apologising, if you can bring yourself to, might also help. I make no comment on the sock-puppet allegation; is it being dealt with? It does seem an awful lot of IPs and forgetting, but really the main thing is to move on from it. I for one will always take what you say on its own merits, and you have made some useful edits to the article. --Guinnog 22:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wekepedians CFD Notice

alphaChimp laudare 21:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion#Portal:Orkney

A Portal you created recently, Portal:Orkney, has been nominated for deletion. If you wish to take part in the discussion please contribute at:

Thanks. --Mais oui! 07:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment on my talkpage - Mais Oui

Hi, I'm not sure why you left that comment but i'd just like to make you aware of WP:OWN. Your proposed solution of "I'll edit my pages, won't touch theirs" really does come across like a sense of ownership.

Yes, moving on from your disagreement with Mais Oui is a very good idea, but you need to learn to work together or just give each other some space. I've changed a few of your recent edits on categories - constant to-and-fro over "Orkney, Scotland" and "Orkney, UK" is not productive and it's actually pretty pointless - the wikilink to Orkney puts things into context (although I beleive we should be saying "Orkney, Scotland").

While WikiProjects and the like are useful tools, they are useful if multiple editors participate in them. It would perhaps be more useful to use existing Scotland and UK projects until such a time there is a critical mass of interested editors to make Orkney ones worthwhile.

In all my responses to your disagrement with Mais Oui I have tried to give an impartial response.

Perhaps if you plan on moving forward it would be helpful to remove some comments aimed specifically at Mais Oui from the Orkney project pages and your user page?

Thanks/wangi 20:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered vandalism, and if you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the work of others. Thank you. Naconkantari 01:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sock puppet allegations

Dear Mallimak,

I know that I have been accused of being a sock puppet. I support you over the portal and the notice board, but I am not sure that I should be getting directly involved in your dispute with Mais oui!, after all I am new here and I know he is watching me already. Don't misunderstand me, though, I do understand your frustration at his behaviour, and I see from the discussion that his tactics have made him a few enemies on Wikipedia.

I think they are surprised that broadband has reached Orkney, even if it still is a bit unreliable and our choice of service providers is rather limited.

As for knowing each other in real life, try as a clue: "Ba', Broad Street".

Regards, Orkadian 22:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


RE:I GIVE UP!

If you are still interested in contributing to Wikipedia on Orkney related matters, then I would suggest you continue to do so- I think you can make more good contributions in this area. I know you have been under attack from some users on your editing- unfortunatly this can happen, but you shouldn't let it get to you. Feel free to contact via the email link if you want to discuss further. Astrotrain 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ta for your note, I've commented on my talk page. Hope you've been having similarly good weather to us recently: I've great memories of cycling in Orkney, and it felt a good place to relax. As with Astrotrain, you're welcome to contact me if there's anything I can help with. ..dave souza, talk 19:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You know what I said to you when we met the other day. I am particularly annoyed about the removal of the Wikipedians' notice board and the Orkney Portal. It is tantamount to censorship. Orkadian 22:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is suspected that Orkadian (talk · contribs) might be a sock puppet of Mallimak. Please see: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Mallimak. --Mais oui! 22:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please be civil

Please be civil, in particular i'm referring to [3], [4]. There's plenty of articles to edit, it's easy for you both to avoid each other - please try.

It is important to keep a cool head, especially when responding to comments against you or your edits. Personal attacks and disruptive comments only escalate a situation; please keep calm and remember that action can be taken against other parties if necessary. Attacking another user back can only satisfy trolls or anger contributors and leads to general bad feeling. Please try to remain civil with your comments. Thanks! /wangi 20:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'd like to second those comments. It's disappointing to see these kind of attacks left in edit summaries. On the point of Julyan Sinclair's nationality it's clear he is Scottish. His Orcadian background can clearly be adequately mentioned in addition. Kinda maddening to hear you're becoming disillusioned over these points, as you clearly have a lot to add about the Orkney Islands. Plenty of localities have a distinct status or origin, even a claim to "nationhood" but remain within a larger country - Quebec instantly springs to mind. WP has to go by the political map (or, if you like, the passport) rather than the rhetoric in these cases. Deizio talk 23:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that you are continuing to act in an uncivil manner following repeated warnings, for example: [5]. Please remain civil and don't resort to making personal attacks. Continuing attacks will lead to a temporary editing ban being placed on you. Thanks/wangi 07:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Julyan Sinclair

With regard to your edit I have removed the latter text. Please understand this point - don't reinsert it without sourcing it. You say it has been in the papers - if so then please say where and when. Facts have to be verifiable, and the wikipedia policy on living people's biographies is very strict. Using the word allegedly doesn't get around having to source the content you add. This one is serious - and it comes from the top of wikipedia - see here for why this all came about.

While I am here I will run over a couple other things.

  • Please read WP:NPA very carefully - edit summaries such as this that you have just made will not be tolerated.
  • An edit like this is also incorrect. The flag is copyrighted and has been tagged as such. It is used under United States Fair Use rights - wikimedia servers are based in Florida and content here is under the jurisdiction of Florida & US laws. The flag can, and should, be used - it is not illegal to do so.

To be honest I would advise you to just come here and do some constructive editing - making attacks against people and editing without regard for wikipedia policy is just going to end up with you being served with warnings and possibly banned. Thanks. SFC9394 23:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"What it has to do with is the law of arms in Scotland.....and so in Scotland is illegal" -as I have already stated to you once - wikipedia comes under the jurisdiction and laws of Florida - not Scotland - so it's use here at wikipedia is not illigal, and to state that it is intentionally misleading. The only laws that matter are the US Federal laws and Florida state laws - it is as simple as that. SFC9394 14:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bogus Talk page postings

- - Stop using your sockpuppets to post contributions on Talk pages claiming to be from other User: - *[6] - That contribution was not by User:SFC9394 but from you: you had just deposited the same thing on my Talk under your own name. Quit the blatant sockpuppetry. --Mais oui! 14:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The IP was re-posting my comment, but not doing so in a way that made clear that I was not the author of the wider post. In future, I would advise the person to make clear who they are, post quotes from people inside quotes, and only post from one account. As for the issue, it is pretty straight forward. Scots law has nothing to do with what is held on servers in Florida - it is US federal & State laws that have to be breached. The most Scots law can do is block the content from being accessible and distributable in Scotland. An easy analogy is nazi symbols. Someone in Florida could setup a website full of nazi symbols and they would (likely) not be breaking any local laws. To do that inside Germany is a criminal offence - but Germany has no authority to take the US website owner to court - the most they can do is block that website from being accessible inside Germany. Basically, in summary, US (Florida) laws are followed - trying to operate a wiki encyclopedia globally which conformed to all national laws would end up with something so restricted to be somewhat useless. Different countries have different laws, and on a global scale there are plenty of openly contradictory laws in different nations that make universal enforcement impossible. SFC9394 16:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removing warning templates - please desist now

Thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.

Removing warnings is vandalism: desist now, this notice, {{sockpuppeteer}}, is to warn other Users that you are a proven sockpuppeteer:Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Mallimak --Mais oui! 16:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a warning - do not add a sockpuppet notice to Mais Oui's page again without proof that they are sockpuppeting. What Mais Oui is putting on your page is well within policy based on that checkuser evidence. If you replace it, you'll be blocked from editing. Syrthiss 18:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WP:No personal attacks

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.

[7]

--Mais oui! 07:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Using your sockpuppets to vandalise articles

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.

Mallimak, I really do very, very strongly advise you to desist from using your sockpuppet IP addresses to vandalise articles. You are just making things worse and worse for yourself.

Example diffs 81.153.151.127 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log):

--Mais oui! 20:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mais oui! is sockpuppet obsessed, they are nothing to do with me. Mallimak 21:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked

Your edits to your and Mai Oui's talk page, replete WITH CAPITAL LETTERS are serving solely and singularly to inflame. They contain nothing of use to either a)dispute resolution or b)encyclopedia editing and have been gone through at length on the admin noticeboard(s). You have a dispute with the user: there is no excuse for wanton aggravation. I've blocked you for 24 hours, so that you can find something better to do. -Splash - tk 22:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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