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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Thewholetruthnothingbut (talk | contribs) at 17:12, 1 December 2017. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Cream

"He later left the church over a dispute involving cream"? Please explain. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 02:09, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

Please see the paragraph about his wife's dispute over cream. I also removed the following until I can draft out both cause and effect.

This in turn led to the death of Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum in Carthage Jail. Shortly afterwards, Brigham Young led the saints to Salt Lake Valley, Utah due to the intense persecution. WBardwin 04:54, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)


WBardin --- This is very good work, it's wonderful to have see all of these bios filled out. It was a real gap to be missing (or to just have stubs) for important people like Hyrum Smith, David W. Patten and Thomas B. Marsh. Overall it's very good, but I do have a couple of problems with some of the details. (1) This cream story is just Mormon folklore; Utah leaders told this yarn long after the fact and there is no contemporary basis for it. Marsh explained very clearly at the time why he left the Saints. He left because he opposed the radical measures depriving the dissenters of the rights and property, he believed that Smith and Rigdon had overracted to the non-Mormon threat, and he was bitterly opposed to the fact that the Mormon militia had burned and looted the homes of non-Mormons in Daviess County. Those serious reasons make the later story of a petty quarrel absurd. (2) Marsh's affadavit did not cause the Haun's Mill Massacre and the other events of the Mormon War. The actions of the Latter Day Saints (sacking Gallatin, attacking the state militia, etc.) which Marsh opposed were the root cause. Marsh's affadavits exascerbated the problem by seeming to confirm the Missourians' worst fears. (3) Also, this last part is just speculation on your part and mine, but I think it's highly unlikely that Marsh would have succeeded Smith if Marsh had remained President of the 12. There was no reason to imagine that the President of the 12 would succeed to the Presidency and Marsh doesn't seem like the same kind of ambitious man that Brigham Young was to cause such an unexpected precedent. However, it surely is true that if Marsh had remained President of the 12 he would have prevented Brigham Young from becoming President of the Church. --John Hamer 06:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've made the changes to the "Falling Away" section. Marsh's contemporary statement, the timing of his apostacy, and a host of contemporary testimony back up the view that he left the church over the burning and looting of Daviess County. This milk cow story may be good sermon material, but it is not backed up by any contemporary account --- or, indeed, any other account. Lacking additional evidence, historians have rejected the later tale in favor of the contemporary accounts. For the standard treatment, see Stephen C., LeSueur, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, University of Missouri Press, 1990, pp. 134-137. --John Hamer 16:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Marsh wrote his own Autobiography in 1864. I would suggest consulting it for more information on the milk incident. Thank you. User: TingYi 11:17, 21 Oct 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.73.81 (talk)

Date of George A. Smith sermon

The article states: "Years later, in 1864, George A. Smith claimed in a sermon that Marsh..."

The date of George A. Smith's sermon about the milk and cream was 1856, not 1864.

The Leaven of the Gospel, Etc. Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, pp. 280-291, 4/6/1856 [1].

Index of George A. Smiths discourses is at [2]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.20.160.251 (talk) 05:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Modern section

To all...As for the "Modern Opinion" this section should not be included, putting the silly disclaimer on it does not change the fact the "Modern Opinion" is entirely unsupportable and as a matter of fact someones personal non-authoritative opinipn. Any Mormon male "could be" the Prophet of the Mormon Church some day. Also IF and that's a VERY BIG IF, Mormons do hold the opinion supposedly expressed in the "Modern Opinion" section, then there is a reliable source to cite; some credible source to refer....otherwise for the sake of Wikipedia's integrity keep personal opinions elsewhere. Lastly please update yourselves on Wiki verifiable requirement for content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtdem (talk • contribs) 05:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It appears WBardin created the modern opinion section as such it is then the creators responsibility to submit the sources. There is no source to be cited concerning the Modern Opinion. And by it very name it is just an opinion - more succinctly it appears to be the personal opinion of WBardin. The section can not be supported. The modern opinion section only serves to discredit Wikipedia. Please update yourselves on the guidelines and policies concerning content.(Rtdem (talk) 19:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I suggest that since no BLP issue is involved, it would be appropriate to ask for a reference and provide a period of time to allow for that before deleting the section outright. I agree that the section needs referencing; however, I also agree that it's not appropriate in this case to delete it outright without first requesting a source and providing a reasonable amount of time for one to be provided (or not). Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:50, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly an edit war! I'm not even particularly attached to the modern section -- as it was created as part of a discussion with another editor long long ago. But, I do object to deletions of sections, on any article, without discussion. The ability to delete without question is the ability to censor -- which is inappropriate for Wikipedia. I do remember some references to Marsh in recent LDS Relief Society/Priesthood lessons which might support some of this material. Other ideas on sources welcome. WBardwin (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would consider 5 deletions and 5 restorations of a complete paragraph within 2 days to be an edit war. Whatever you call it, the back and forth needs to stop while we have a reasonable period of time to get sourced information. I have a few ideas for sources; I will post them if I find anything. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The section has been up for a few years, how much more time is needed? (Rtdem (talk) 03:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]
In the "old" days, when this particular section was created, Wikipedia was not source obsessive. Under the established policy at the time, editors cited sources only when we directly quoted or when the issue was, by acclimation in discussion, considered very controversial. The obsession with citing a source for almost every line is quite recent -- and was probably based on some bad press Wikipedia received a while back. Many older articles are filled with material that needs sourcing under the new guidelines, and there are not so many of us "older" editors still around. Catching up on this material is a big job. So, if I can suggest, rather than just deleting when you come across such a section or article, place a source template on it and try to notify a couple of original editors who are still around. Then be patient - there is a reason why the templates are dated, and a group of editors review the dates regularly. Or do a little research and source the material yourself. Deletion may ultimately occur, but most often sources are found or the material is altered. Your input on the content discussion below would be welcome. WBardwin (talk) 04:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Efforts to source Modern section

In regard to: Marsh's conversion story is occasionally cited as an example of how powerful the Book of Mormon can be in convincing people of the truthfulness of the Church. A quick search found the following reference: William G. Hartley, Ensign, September 1978, who cites “History of Thos. Baldwin Marsh,” Deseret News, 24 Mar. 1858.

As for: When his apostasy is mentioned, he is often referred to either as an example of pride or as an example of one who failed to fulfill his calling to serve the Church. Supporting references from Ensign talks are easy to come by, i.e. Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, May 1984; Dale S. Cox, Ensign, January 1993; Henry B. Eyring, Ensign, June 2008; and David Z. Bednar, Ensign, November 2006. Also found some mention in a quick look at Gospel Doctrine Manuals.

As this section addresses how Marsh's experience is used in modern LDS teaching, I would assert that these would be good references. However, Ensign material is often disputed as being to LDS pov by other editors. Opinion? WBardwin (talk) 00:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice; I agree and I think Ensign references are fine when we are trying to establish LDS Church teachings. (In some instances it may not be a good source for neutrally assessing historical incidents (since it's largely "hagiographic"-style writings) or for establishing notability, but that's another story.) I had come across some of these Ensign sources too and was going to post them here.
The most difficult claim to cite may be the "rarely mentioned" comment. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We could probably change that to 'infrequently mentioned' -- given the time intervals between conference talks. I'll look in some LDS history books for references as well. But the last statement regarding speculation on succession to the Presidency, though certainly true in my experience in LDS classes, will probably have to go. No authority, at least in the last half of the 20th and the 21st century, is going to publicly speculate about Marsh becoming head of the church. Best.... WBardwin (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good Olfactory, the Bednar quote may be a little too much, but it does lead into the Marsh/Young sentence. What do you think? WBardwin (talk) 05:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it could. ... I'm wondering if we should quote it or just rephrase it and cite it. For now, I would include it. Whether to cut stuff out might be something we need to assess once we have all we can find. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More material:

  • Recent LDS video collection - contains 'If They Harden Not Their Hearts' on Marsh[3]
  • Aha, this link is probably one of the sources of the last sentence: ------ It might be noted that had he remained faithful, it would have been he and not Brigham Young who would have ascended to the Presidency of the Church. [[4]]

WBardwin (talk) 07:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Grandpa Bill's personal pontification is not something that should be posted on Wikipedia. Grandpa Bill is not credible on the subject matter. (Rtdem (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Image

There is an image claiming to be Marsh at OliverCowdery.com -- The Premier Web-Site for Early Mormon History. I have my doubts are the LDS Church History people have never claimed to have an image of Marsh, something they would want. What do you all think? Is it Marsh?--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 14:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's one of Dale R. Broadhurst's many websites. I'd suggest contacting him to find out what evidence he has that this is in fact Marsh; it's an intriguing lead, but the info currently available on his website is not enough to establish provenance. We don't need an issue like we had with Elijah Abel a few years ago, where we repeated a mistake that Dialogue had made, misattributed a drawing as Abel (see this for details). —Asterisk*Splat→ 16:57, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

'Document p.57' source?

I can't see any verifiable source for the quotes from and references to 'Document p.57.' Oops. Sorry. Found it in the references. But the link to the complete text is broken. Jenglish02 (talk) 06:06, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SYNTH in milk and strippings section

The recent reworking of the "milk and strippings" section is, IMO, a clear example of WP:SYNTH. It draws multiple conclusions ("it is highly probable that the real cause...", "...would indicate a disaffection...", "...may account for...") are novel conclusions not found in any of the cited sources. Since the cited primary sources only give (A) the date of his leaving the church and (B) the day of the Gallatin attack, any further conclusions like (C) why he left the church is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. Now there very well may be a reliable source out there that connects those dots, but my admittedly cursory search didn't turn anything up. @Thewholetruthnothingbut: Please get consensus here on the talk page before reinserting that edit. --FyzixFighter (talk) 04:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please excuse my bumbling about, but I'm new. I'm surprised that the milk strippings story was even brought up and then further discussed in the following paragraphs. This story is an unsubstantiated rumor, and misogynistic to boot, and does not deserve a place in wikipedia. Why wikipedia would allow a rumor and its ramifications to be posted while disallowing an obvious conclusion about Marsh's resignation is beyond me. Marsh resigned 4 days after Mormon violence and detailed it at length in an affidavit two days later. He expresses his concern quite clearly. So it looks like rumor has a place on this page but an affadavit holds no weight. Additionally, this story has some extremely delicate details that I doubt the church would want revealed, namely, that the milk strippings dispute was between Marsh's wife and the prophet Joseph Smith's secret polyandrous wife. I find it distasteful that this story has gained such a grip on the Mormon psyche (and trust me, I know) that true nature of this whole event is discarded. I'm sure I will be making more mistakes, and they are not intentional. A moderator wants to discuss this, but frankly it's going to take me some time to figure out how to email him, since he doesn't have his email on his page. He says he can be emailed. This is a very deep, nasty story, but if we're going to tell it, let's tell it all.Thewholetruthnothingbut (talk) 05:20, 1 December 2017 (UTC)thetruthandnothingbut[reply]
@Thewholetruthnothingbut: Who cares what the LDS Church wouldn't want revealed? That has nothing to do with this page nor my concerns regarding your edit. You really need to familiarize yourself with wikipedia policies, especially WP:OR. I would also recommend WP:RGW, particularly the third bullet, and WP:BRD. The strippings story is recounted in secondary sources, therefore we report it. Unless the "obvious conclusion" is stated in a reliable source, wikipedia can't report it. It really is that simple. Your edit, as it is now, violates WP:OR as I've stated above because it appears to synthesize novel conclusions - why Marsh left the church and that the strippings dispute is just a rumor - from primary sources, but the conclusion itself isn't contained in a reliable source. We, as wp editors, can't draw and put forth conclusions or statements in this way. The affadavit is included in this article, under the "1838 split with Smith" section but I don't see in there where Marsh says the Gallatin event was the reason he left the church (if I'm wrong, point out where he says this), therefore to connect it with the strippings story/Marsh leaving the church is original research/synthesis. You need a secondary source that connects the dots. If a reliable source (defined by WP:RS) tells the whole deep, nasty story, then we'll tell it; if a source doesn't, then we don't.
As for getting in touch with the third party - you can also leave a note on their talk page, for example mine is User_talk:FyzixFighter and yours is User_talk:Thewholetruthnothingbut. The third party will also have a user talk page, and will get a notification when you leave a message there. Given that there is a dispute, usual practice on wikipedia is to revert back to the earlier edit while the new, challenged edit is discussed on the talk page until a consensus is reached (see WP:BRD). The onus is on the editor advocating a change to convince others that the change is an improvement (see WP:CONSENSUS). Usually a reasonable compromise is reached, but not always. In that light, I would ask you to revert yourself until consensus is reached here on the talk page. --FyzixFighter (talk) 06:13, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You must understand the dynamics that occur when the top dog of the quorum leaves the church. There are a hundred people left in the org that are willing to fabricate stories, and the person who left is doomed. This story has a hundred people telling it. I don't know if it's true or not, but do 100 liars get to win just because they had an outlet for publishing in 1838? I would be willing to compromise by writing a paragraph about what Marsh said in his own words 19 years later were his reasons for leaving. While I don't think he's being truthful, I do have his source. He mentions neither the milk strippings, nor the Gallatin attack. The milk strippings story should not even have been included. I don't want to talk about sexual dynamics in this article, but I can if I have to. While the disagreement may have happened, it just seems like the violence Marsh spoke of in his own words would have more weight than a trial that has no documentation. Why don't we just take out the MS story, or I will write up a paragraph about Marsh's first hand explanation. I apologize for my errors. I am studying up on how to do this. But frankly, and we might as well get this out of the way, did you take that link re Elizabeth Brotherton down out of malice or was it just a strange coincidence? That link worked when I left it. Mistakes will ensue, and if they/ you fire me, so be it. I'm editing myself. You're the expert, but the violence being the cause of Marsh's departure being original research seems off to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewholetruthnothingbut (talk • contribs) 07:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My personal musings on the dynamics back then and the potential for fabricated stories are irrelevant - as are yours. What matters is what reliable sources say. Reliable sources retell this story, whether it is true or not, and also discuss the stories importance (again regardless of veracity) in modern LDS theology/culture. I did search for a reliable source that discussed the veracity of the milk strippings story but turned up nothing. It's of course possible that I missed it, so keep looking - the ideal sentence would be "So-and-so historian has challenged this account, instead arguing that Marsh left because of such-and-such". If you have a reliable source that talk about sexual dynamics relative Thomas Marsh, then let's include it. This is a hard concept for newcomers to wikipedia, but wikipedia is not about truth but about verifiability. I'm no expert on this topic, but I have been around wikipedia a bit and am somewhat familiar with the policies. But that is the beauty of editing here - you don't have to be an expert, you only need access to sources from experts (and some competence in writing and interacting constructively with others - see WP:CIR).
As for the Elizabeth Brotherton issue, first I would note that you should remember to assume good faith (WP:AGF) of other editors - never attribute to malice that which may be adequately explained by a simple difference of opinion. If you would like to discuss that other edit, it should be discussed at Talk:Parley P. Pratt where I've already started a discussion (per WP:BRD). --FyzixFighter (talk) 07:22, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just musings when the situation is an institution with newspapers and magazines at their disposal against a sole person who leaves. This is truly problematic. You have not addressed my proposal that I write a paragraph about Marsh's words as to why he left. That might balance out the last paragraph that goes into some detail about everyone who has used a rumor to their own purposes. Or I can add a section in that paragraph about articles that have labelled Marsh's departure aa act of integrity. This very real possibility was ignored. I'm sure you understand why integrity is not mentioned.Thewholetruthnothingbut (talk) 17:12, 1 December 2017 (UTC)thetruthandnothingbut[reply]
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