Talk:Flag of Syria

UN recognized flag

There is only one UN and internationally recognized flag, Just because the Syrian National Coalition "claims" itself to be the government does not make it so, it is not recognized by the UN to be the government. This article needs to be updated and fixed to reflect this, and to stop spreading false information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anon551055 (talk • contribs) 15:59, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

This has been discussed repeatedly above (and in sections which have been moved to the archives of this talk page). In 2013, over 20 countries extended some form of recognition to the Syrian opposition, and it took Syria's seat in the Arab League.[1] United Nations membership can be important, but is not decisive in itself. During 1979 and most of the 1980's, the Pol Pot government or Coalition Government of Democratic Kampuchea held the United Nations seat for Cambodia, though very few people in the world thought that it was the legitimate government of Cambodia... AnonMoos (talk) 00:04, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

By the way, you can see on the talk archives page, that before 2013, I was opposed to presenting the two flags as equal, but then things changed... AnonMoos (talk) 00:10, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Your maneuverings at File:Flag of Syria 2011, observed.svg on Commons were counterproductive, and have been repeatedly rejected... AnonMoos (talk) 02:23, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

So when do you think this article should be updated to have a single infobox? Anon551055 (talk) 09:24, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't know right now -- but not just because the Iran-Hezbollah-Russia trio started propping up the Assad regime. AnonMoos (talk) 13:51, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: I find discussion on this talk page interesting. Sure, the Assad regime doesn´t control significant parts of Syria and is not recognised by many countries, but what about the 1980 flag? My brief look at Syria country profile on foreign ministry webpages of several countries shows many governments continue to use the 1980 flag for Syria: US [2], France [3], Germany [4], Italy [5], Spain [6] and even Turkey [7]. I wonder who is using the 1961 flag? Pavlor (talk) 08:17, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

I tried to look on the Arab League website http://www.lasportal.org/ , but it's down now (which is nothing new -- the Arab League didn't even have a website for most of the decade of the 2000s!). Anyway, governments don't usually directly recognize flags -- they recognize governments, and the flag follows from the government... AnonMoos (talk) 10:15, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

It is obvious that even countries not on friendly term with the Assad regime use the 1980 flag as flag of Syria on their webpages. That is why I asked, if there is similar level of support for the 1961 flag. I understand your point is both flags should have equal place in the article, but can you back this opinion by reliable sources? Article history shows steady edit war about this issue, but arguments I see on the talkpage are of the pov-like kind. As of government recognition, only few countries recognise Syrian Interim Government as sole government of Syria (17 if I count this right, other recognition are more "vague") and judging by its success in the field, this will be not better in the future. If we don´t find enough RS for equal status of both flags, I propose to change section "Flag used by the Assad government" to "Description". Rewording of introduction would be also preferable (looks like pov of one side...), but such change would need even stronger consensus - better leave it as it is for now. Sure, opinion of other editors is welcomed. Pavlor (talk) 12:12, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - there are multiple non-UN member countries, this doesn't make them less real. I do agree however that Syria article is about Ba'ath-ruled Syrian Arab Republic and only their flag should be used.GreyShark (dibra) 16:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Lead: two governments?

Clearly the lead is mistaken - there are at least three governments claiming to be legitimate rulers in Syrian territories: Ba'athist Government, Turkey-backed Syrian Opposition Government and Syrian Opposition Government in Idlib. And we are still not counting the ruling executive committee of the North Syria Federation, which can be well counted as well.GreyShark (dibra) 16:33, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Where do you get those ideas from! anyone can claim, this doesnt give it legetimacy. There is only one legitimate ruler in Syria, the one that have a seat in the UN and who still issues passports that are recognized by the diplomatice circles. You dont give credit to any militia claiming itself to be a government !--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:08, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

You are confusing self-legitimacy with legitimacy; Syrian Interim Government issues passports since 2015 [8].GreyShark (dibra) 19:18, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

And who accepts those passports? You will be arrested for forgery if u try to use them. Again, there is only one internationally recognized Syria.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 19:50, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Split

Let's simply split Flag of the Syrian opposition into a separate article - this is already 6 years and neither the opposition nor the Ba'athist Syrian Republic are not going anywhere. We should be realistic and stop pretending like both Koreas are the same country with same flag or that Republic of Cyprus and Turkish Republic of Cyprus can unite - all have distinct flags.GreyShark (dibra) 17:44, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Korea has been hostile but stable since 1953, while Cyprus has been hostile but stable since 1974. Syria is still very volatile and unpredictable... AnonMoos (talk) 10:27, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - in light of recent discussions I would like to reinstall the split proposal - this would reduce edit-warring. Remarks welcome.GreyShark (dibra) 16:37, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose its not up to us to be realistic. Both Koreas have international recognition but only one Syria have such a thing. The flag of the Syrian opposition is the flag of Syria until 1958; just because the opposition used it doesnt make it a new flag that deserves an article named the flag of the Syrian opposition.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:10, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose For now. Civil wars may drag on for years (eg. 15 years in Lebanon...). To put it cynically, some problems may solve themselves - with enough time... and firepower. Pavlor (talk) 05:56, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Time to reassess "consensus."

I've skimmed through the discussion above, and there's a lot of talk, by defenders of the article's status-quo, of a "consensus" - one which was apparently reached several years ago, around the beginning of the war.

To what extent this "consensus" was valid even back then is debatable, but, in any case, the situation was completely different back then...

This was right on the heels of the successful regime-change war against Libya, and at the time the various rebel factions were advancing rapidly and it looked as if Damascus might fall at any time.

Over the past several years though, the Syrian government has recaptured more and more territory. The cities of Homs and Aleppo are fully under government control. The Eastern Qalamon pocket has been evacuated. The last pocket in the greater Damascus area is about to be cleared, and the Rastan pocket on the border of Homs Hama governates will likely soon follow suit. The rebels have even been pushed out of eastern Idlib, and in the rest of Idlib they're busy fighting among themselves.

It's clear that, barring unforseen circumstances, the government in Damascus, currently headed by Assad, is not going anywhere anytime soon.

Even mainstream Western media outlets are now routinely referring to the Syrian government as the "Syrian government." A few examples from the past month:

https://www.rferl.org/a/syrian-rebels-accept-russian-brokered-surrender-deal-homs-enclave-/29205593.html

https://www.ft.com/content/651d4d56-4e15-11e8-a7a9-37318e776bab

http://time.com/5240613/syria-news-strike-attack-missiles/

http://www.france24.com/en/20180412-syria-russian-military-police-deployed-douma-eastern-ghouta

Furthermore, the so-called "Syrian National Coalition" in Istanbul exercises little actual control over any of the major armed rebel groups fighting against the Syrian government. So its claim to be a defacto government of parts of Syria is rather dubious. Within rebel-held territory, a bunch of different flags are used, including the ISIS and Jihad flags, and then there are the Kurds/SDF who have their own set of flags.

In any case, it's clear that there's one primary SYRIAN GOVERNMENT, which in control of the Syrian capital and most of the other major population centers, and will be for the foreseeable future. Various other armed groups control some other territory, sometimes in concert with foreign governments like the US and Turkey, but they don't in any way have an equal claim to being the government of Syria, whether de facto or de jure.

So I think whatever may have been the "consensus" five or six years ago, when the situation on the ground was completely different than today, needs to be thrown out the window, and we need to start over from scratch.

My proposal is that we get rid of any mentions of the "Assad government," and instead talk about the "Syrian government."

The article of course can also mention flags used by (various factions of) the FSA, the Kurds/SDF, al-Nusra, ISIS, and whatever other group currently controls parts of Syria's territory, but the flag of the actual Syrian government should be primary. -2003:CA:83D0:7900:3C13:73DE:B4C5:3FD8 (talk) 20:59, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. I can't believe we reached this situation. Should Flag of China and Flag of Israel give equal weight to the Taiwanese and Palestinian flags, because they also claim de jure sovereignty over those countries? Obviously not. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:41, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Support: Sadly, some wikipedia editors allowed themselves to decide the legal position of a nation based on their ideologies or bias. As long as the UN accept passports issued by the government in Damascus Only, and as long as the only representitive of Syria in the UN and the CS is appointed by Damascus, then this flag is the official flag of Syria.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 09:40, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Support: This article, which pretends that the FSA flag said to represent alternative "governments" that have no democratic legitimacy and that no-one within Syria or without has ever heard of, is somehow on a par with the internationally recognised flag of Syria, is a nonsense. Bougatsa42 (talk) 08:18, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Oppose: As another editor said, when a similar proposal was made last month (just up the page), the flag of the Syrian opposition was the flag of Syria until 1958. It was used even by the current regime at events right up to the civil war commemorating the break with the UAR. It is not simply the flag of the Syrian National Coalition or any one particular organisation, but widely used by the entire opposition, and very widely in the Syrian diaspora. Nothing has changed that should affect the consensus that has been repeatedly re-affirmed here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Oppose the civil war is still going on and until the rival government the Syrian Interim Government is defeated militarily completely,then we can talk about removing the rival government,the syrian interim government still has Daraa and Idlib,and SDF controls northeast Syria,as long as an inch of syria is still not under Assad's control,then we can't say that he is the government,and If SDF remains in control of Northeast Syria,then we might have to rename this article the Flag of West Syria.Alhanuty (talk) 23:05, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley -

1. Regarding the alleged use by the Syrian government of the old flag at some historic events, I don't see the relevance (assuming this is true) to the current discussion here...The United States, the UK, and various other countries have older versions of their flags as well, which will sometimes be displayed at various commemorations, historic sites, museums, etc. But this doesn't mean that they are the actual current flags of their respective countries.

Naturally, the article should include a discussion of this flag (along with other historic flags of Syria) and note its use by some opposition activists and armed rebel groups. But this doesn't mean that it in any way has equal status as the current flag of Syria.

2. Regarding "consensus," you write that: "Nothing has changed that should affect the consensus that has been repeatedly re-affirmed here."

So first, I'm rather baffled that you would say that nothing has changed since 2012 or 2013, or whenever it was that this "consensus" was first established. The course of the war has changed dramatically since then, and just about everyone who was previously insistent on regime-change has now (explicitly or implicitly) admitted that the Syrian government (currently led by Assad) isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Moreover, when you say that a "consensus" has been "repeatedly re-affirmed," I'm honestly curious as to how exactly you are defining "consensus" and how you're defining "re-affirmation" of said (alleged) "consensus."

In my perusal of the discussion above, it appears to me that there are at least as many people expressing disagreement with the supposed "consensus" as there are those supporting it. And here so far, in this section, of the four of us who have spoken, three are speaking against the alleged "consensus," so there certainly doesn't seem to be any real consensus for it!

Furthermore, when I look at the main Syria article here on Wikipedia, it shows only one flag in its intro, and it refers to the Syrian government as simply the "Syrian government," not as the "Assad government," or "Assad regime," or anything along those lines. So it would seem that the status-quo on this page, which you're referring to as the "consensus," is actually an outlier from the broader consensus on this issue here on Wikipedia.

I believe an RFC (or some such process) here would be in order so that a broader cross-section of Wikipedia editors can become involved in this discussion. -2003:CA:83CC:CA00:1D88:91DD:6041:F1F7 (talk) 16:40, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

RFC: One primary flag, Syrian government to be known as "Syrian government."

I started a discussion already in the section immediately above, but starting a separate RFC section here in order to bring in more participation from a broader cross-section of Wikipedia community.

In brief, my proposal here has two components which, as noted above, would bring this article into line with the conventions already well established at other Syria-related articles, such as the main Syria article:

1. The Syrian government should be referred to as the "Syrian government" (or "government of Syria," or similar), not as the "Assad government," the "Assad regime," or anything along those lines. Again, this is not only NPOV, but also would bring it in line with conventions elsewhere on Wikipedia.

2. The lede section should focus exclusively on the current primary flag of the government of Syria - i.e. the one with horizontal red, white, and black stripes and two green stars.

Naturally, historic flags of Syria should also be mentioned in the article, and the flags used by any group occupying parts of Syrian territory, whether a rebel group like the FSA, ISIS, or al-Nusra, or a foreign power like Israel or Turkey, could also be mentioned. But the article should not suggest that any of these groups or their flags are somehow on equal footing with the actual government of Syria and its current flag.

As noted in the section above, the current status-quo for this article apparently emerged a number of years ago, towards the beginning of the war, when various rebel groups were rapidly advancing, and it looked like the government of Syria might fall at anytime and be replaced. But this is no longer the case at all today. -2003:CA:83C1:3500:DD19:E151:C1C3:7FC5 (talk) 19:16, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Support: It is POV to call the UN recognized government "Assad regime". The flag of Syria (red one) is the one raised in the UN. The flag of the opposition is a historical Syrian flag that belongs in the historic flags section but should not be presented as a competitor for the the UN recognized one. We, Wiki editors, should not decide the legitimacy of a certain govenrment, this is an encyclopedia.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Oppose the civil war is still going on and until the rival government the Syrian Interim Government is defeated militarily completely,then we can talk about removing the rival government,the syrian interim government still has Daraa and Idlib,and SDF controls northeast Syria,as long as an inch of syria is still not under Assad's control,then we can't say that he is the government,and If SDF remains in control of Northeast Syria,then we might have to rename this article the Flag of West Syria.Alhanuty (talk) 23:05, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@Alhanuty - You write above that "the syrian interim government still has Daraa and Idlib," but in actuality, much of Darra governate, and part of Idlib government, are already under Syrian government control. And within the portions of Idlib and Darra that are under anti-government insurgent control, most is controlled by groups other than those branded as the "Free Syrian Army." Groups like the Al-Nusra Front (the Syrian branch of al-Qaeda, uses various other names), Jaysh al-Islam, and the Islamic Front, all uses flags other than the FSA/"Syrian Interim Government" flag, and these are the principle non-ISIS rebel groups in Syria, who control the most territory. Idlib city, and most of the rest of the governate is under al-Nusra control.

...Should EACH of these rebel groups (and others), and the "governments" which they claim to be, be given equal status with the actual government of Syria?...And if not, then why not, what makes this "Syrian Interim Government" and its "Free Syrian Army" special and more deserving of arbitrary recognition from Wikipedia than all of the other armed groups occupying Syrian territory and setting up their own pseudo-governments?

Also, you write that: "as long as an inch of syria is still not under Assad's control,then we can't say that he is the government," but this is actually a STRAW MAN. Neither I, nor anybody else arguing for these changes is saying that Assad is the government. We're saying that the SYRIAN GOVERNMENT, which is currently led by Assad, is the government of Syria. It is the others here who are wanting to call it the "Assad government" and identify it with him personally. The fact is though that Assad could die tomorrow and the Syrian government, with all of its institutions, would continue to exist.

Finally, regarding this "an inch of syria" rhetoric, there are numerous countries around the world that, currently or in the past, have had armed rebel groups controlling parts of their territory. In 1994, for example, the EZLN briefly occupied parts of Mexico's territory. Does this mean that Wikipedia (had it existed back then) should have given them equal status with the actual government of Mexico, and referred to the Mexican government as "the de Gortari government"???

The Assad Government doesn't control all of syrian territory and there is a rival government represented by the Syrian Interim government,plus your information is wrong,the Free Syrian Army controls 70% of Daraa,as long as the opposition controls a important territory such as Daraa,near Damascus,the Flag of Syria remains contested,until something happens to the syrian interim government.Alhanuty (talk) 15:18, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

The fact is that consensus on Wikipedia isn't simply about the number of votes - it's about policies, and I'm seeing a real lack of coherent policy-based arguments from those arguing for the status-quo in this article. -2003:CA:83CB:8100:AD6C:7400:E6F5:B509 (talk) 23:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Oppose: As another editor said, when a similar proposal was made last month (just up the page), the flag of the Syrian opposition was the flag of Syria until 1958. It was used even by the current regime at events right up to the civil war commemorating the break with the UAR. It is not simply the flag of the Syrian National Coalition or any one particular organisation, but widely used by the entire opposition, and very widely in the Syrian diaspora. Nothing has changed that should affect the consensus that has been repeatedly re-affirmed here.BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:15, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Is SDF using this flag? If not, then it is used only by a minor part of the opposition, not by the entire opposition. We shouldn´t give undue weight to insignificant faction. However, as both sides of this discussion will not back down, I fear this never-ending edit war will end only with complete military victory of one faction (and I wouldn´t bet on the one using the disputed flag). Pavlor (talk) 19:06, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Is the SDF using it? Well, yes it is. For example, here is the SDF announcing the battle of Raqqa in 2017, with the historic flag prominently displayed. Several SDF components use the the flag as part of their own, e.g. Northern Sun Battalion, Manbij Revolutionaries Battalion, Army of Revolutionaries, Jabhat al-Akrad, Northern Democratic Brigade and Jabhat Thuwar al-Raqqa as well as members of the Syrian Democratic Council, the political arm of the SDF, e.g. Syria's Tomorrow Movement. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, that supports my point... SDF is not using it, only some sub-groups and individuals. Pavlor (talk) 13:20, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Except the first link was the SDF, and the sub-groups are a very wide spread of them. Do you think SDF use the 1980 flag? BobFromBrockley (talk) 21:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@BobFromBrockley - You made much the same comment in the section above, and I responded to all of your points then, but now you simply repeat the same stuff here without even addressing any of the points that I've made. In the interests of good faith communication, I would request that you actually address what I've said.

For example, I wrote:

"Regarding the alleged use by the Syrian government of the old flag at some historic events, I don't see the relevance (assuming this is true) to the current discussion here...The United States, the UK, and various other countries have older versions of their flags as well, which will sometimes be displayed at various commemorations, historic sites, museums, etc. But this doesn't mean that they are the actual current flags of their respective countries.

Naturally, the article should include a discussion of this flag (along with other historic flags of Syria) and note its use by some opposition activists and armed rebel groups. But this doesn't mean that it in any way has equal status as the current flag of Syria."

What is your response to this???

Like I've stated repeatedly, the idea that nothing has changed is patently absurd. Back in 2012/2013 it looked like Damascus might fall any day and its government be replaced, but that's clearly not the case now!

The core of Syria and most of its major population centers have now been secured, and to the extent that the war drags on it will be a low-intensity regional conflict - not the sort of thing that Wikipedia considers multiple national governments with multiple flags.

And once again, regarding "re-affirmation" of an alleged "consensus," above I wrote: "Moreover, when you say that a "consensus" has been "repeatedly re-affirmed," I'm honestly curious as to how exactly you are defining "consensus" and how you're defining "re-affirmation" of said (alleged) "consensus."

In my perusal of the discussion above, it appears to me that there are at least as many people expressing disagreement with the supposed "consensus" as there are those supporting it."

What is your response to this???

Finally, as Pavlor pointed out above, the idea that the FSA flag (the one with green on top and three red stars) is "widely used by the entire opposition" is patently false...

It's not used by the Kurds/SDF. It's not used by ISIS. It's not used by the Al-Nusra Front (the largest and most powerful non-Kurd and non-ISIS rebel group). And if it's used at all by Jaysh al-Islam and the Islamic Front (the two other primary non-ISIS and non-Kurd rebel groups), it's certainly not the primary flag that they use.

So again, like I asked in response to user:Alhanuty above, why should the FSA flag be given special treatment in the Flag of Syria article different from that of the Al-Nusra flag, the Kurdish/SDF flags, the ISIS flag, the Jaysh al-Islam flag, etc.? -2003:CA:83D2:9C00:2DF7:892C:5728:EBFC (talk) 21:03, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

PS - The proposal a month ago was not a similar proposal, not at all, and in fact one of the users who opposed that proposal is supporting mine here. -2003:CA:83D2:9C00:2DF7:892C:5728:EBFC (talk) 21:06, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I made the same comment above, as you have opened the same topic of conversation twice, first as normal talk and now as a formal RfC. I didn't have time to respond to your comments then, but wanted to make sure my view was registered in the RfC. (And I don't see it as a substantively different proposal from the previous one: splitting out the historical/opposition flag into a different article so it is an article about the regime flag is not substantively different from making it an article about the regime flag, which would anyway lead to the creation of an article for the historical/opposition flag. I'll try to reply to your comments later. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:41, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley - 1. There is no "regime flag." There's a flag that's used by the government of Syria, a government which, throughout other Wikipedia articles on Syria, including the main Syria article, is referred to simply as the "Syrian government," or "government of Syria," not as the "Assad government," "Assad regime," or anything POV along those lines. This article is an outlier from the broader consensus/convention here on Wikipedia. 2. As I've repeatedly made clear, the older flag, with the green on top and three red stars, SHOULD be discussed here in this article, just as the Flag of Canada article discusses older versions with a Union Jack that were used before the current Maple Leaf design was adopted, and the Flag of Germany article discusses historical flags like the Nazi flag and the red, white, and black tricolor. National flag articles ALWAYS discuss flags previously used by that nation, and there's no reason that the Flag of Syria article should be an exception in this regard. And this article SHOULD ALSO NOTE THE USE OF THIS HISTORIC FLAG BY CERTAIN ARMED GROUPS AND ACTIVISTS, just as the Flag of Iran article notes the continued use of the "Lion and Sun" flag by some anti-government activists and expatriate communities. The point though is that a historic flag used by some activists and armed non-state-actors SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN EQUAL WEIGHT TO THE ACTUAL CURRENT FLAG OF THE ACTUAL GOVERNMENT OF SYRIA. There is only one Syrian government, with one primary flag that it currently uses. 3. There's no need for a separate article on the "opposition flag," as the flag you're referring to would already still be discussed here, and there's also not one single "opposition" flag, as the various armed non-state-actors in Syria use a variety of different flags, including the Kurdish/JPG/SDF flags, the ISIS and al-Nusra banners, and the flags of the various other Jihadist groups like the Islamic Front and Jaysh al-Islam. The so-called "Syrian National Coalition" is simply a collection of folks who sit around in hotels in Istanbul and have little actual impact on events on the ground in Syria. They're certainly in no way of equal status with the actual government of Syria, and that's the whole point! -2003:CA:83D1:3900:3C92:3E78:8CF:8BB3 (talk) 10:18, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

2003:CA:83C1:3500:DD19:E151:C1C3:7FC5 -- When you equated the 1946-1958 & 1961-1963 two-red-star flag of Syria with the Israeli flag above, you were engaging in a rather disingenuous rhetorical maneuver. (The obvious riposte would to point out that many people feel that the two-green-star flag has a lot more connections to Nasser and the Ba`th party than it does to Syria as a nation.) However, all this doesn't change the fact that the official Syrian opposition achieved a degree of external diplomatic recognition by the Arab League and other nations, while individual fighting groups by themselves have not gained such recognition. Furthermore ISIS never claimed to be a government of Syria, but rather a pan-Islamic caliphate, so that the flag of ISIS is not an alternative flag of Syria as a nation-state, and was never claimed to be such. And the military banners of other fighting factions represent the individual groups involved, rather than claimed alternative governments of Syria as a whole.

P.S. I wonder why you didn't also propose that the flags of Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah be shown? AnonMoos (talk) 17:47, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@AnonMoos - There's a lot to break down in your comment above....

Regarding: "the 1946-1958 & 1961-1963 two-red-star flag of Syria" - there is no such flag. The historical flag now used by some opposition groups has THREE red stars. Yes, just a technicality, but it calls in to question how familiar you are with the topic.

Regarding Israel - I didn't just make a comparison with Israel, but also with Turkey, since they are both foreign states which occupy Syrian territory at the present time. Regarding Russia and Iran and Hezbollah, they do all have military presence in Syria, but they aren't occupying territory and keeping the Syrian army out of said territory, and their presence is at the invitation of the government of Syria - so it's in no way comparable to Israel's occupation of the Golan.

Now you talk above about the "official Syrian opposition," presumably referring to the Syrian national coalition, but this isn't a government which actually controls any of the forces on the ground. There are all sorts of rebel groups who run various Sharia law courts and other pseudo-governmental institutions, but there's no real authority being exercised by the SNC in Istanbul. It is true that the Arab League and some others have given some recognition to the SNC, but that's in no way comparable to the actual government of Syria, which is recognized by the UN, controls the entire capital of Syria and the lion's share of its major population centers, and is regularly referred to in mainstream media as the Syrian government.

And that's what this ultimately boils down to. There's only one actual government of Syria, and some rebel groups or foreign powers occupying parts of Syria's territory doesn't change this fact.

A good analogy would be Colombia a few years ago, when the FARC was occupying some territory in the mountains and jungles, but the actual Colombian government controlled the lion's share of the country's major population centers and its entire capital, and of course was the UN-recognized government of the country. The FARC did aspire to overthrow the government, but their claim didn't mean a whole lot....And even if, say Cuba and North Korea and some other countries set up diplomatic relations with FARC, this still wouldn't change the fact.

Again, Syria has ONE GOVERNMENT, which uses ONE PRIMARY FLAG. The flag with the green top and three red stars should of course be discussed in the article as a historic flag, and its use by some opposition groups and militias should also be noted, but it's in no way on equal footing with the actual current flag of Syria, and it goes against NPOV for Wikipedia to suggest that it is. -2003:CA:83D1:5200:E04D:B5CB:AF80:C4B8 (talk) 17:59, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry I made the star-number mistake, but I was the one who uploaded the first version of image File:Flag of Syria (1932-1958; 1961-1963).svg in 2006, so I'm familiar with that flag. If you look at File:Syria-flag-changes.svg (which I also uploaded in 2006), you can see that the flag of Syria has changed from 2 stars to 3 or vice versa several times, which was why I was briefly confused. I also started the "Flag of Syria" article on Arabic Wikipedia (though admittedly it wasn't much to boast about at that time): علم سوريا.

Israel's occupation of the Golan is a 1967 and 1973 issue, which has no real connection to the start of the Syrian civil war in 2011 (44 years later!) so I really don't know why its flag should be included in the flags of the Syrian civil war on that basis. I thought you wanted the Israeli flag to be included as that of a part-time combattant, but if it's just because of the Golan, then that's really an irrelevant red herring.

And FARC in Colombia wasn't diplomatically recognized by anybody, as far as I'm aware (it often had difficulty just being recognized as a "belligerent force"). If the FARC had been placed in Colombia's seat at meetings of the OAS, that would be a good analogy... AnonMoos (talk) 23:13, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Main issue of the current "consensus" is not that some government is recognised or not, but that this article gives undue weight to one rather minor faction. Pavlor (talk) 06:18, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

The National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces doesn't have any fighters directly under its command (as far as I'm aware), so it's not even on the radar in that sense. However, it had significant diplomatic weight in 2013 (since when things have been somewhat in stasis on the diplomatic front)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:27, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

@AnonMoos - First, regarding the number of stars, I take back that comment, which wasn't really that relevant to the overall point being discussed here, and it's honestly a mistake anybody can make when they're typing and a bit distracted or whatever, so no worries :-)

Now, regarding: "Israel's occupation of the Golan is a 1967 and 1973 issue, which has no real connection to the start of the Syrian civil war in 2011 (44 years later!) so I really don't know why its flag should be included in the flags of the Syrian civil war on that basis."

There's a couple points to clarify here: 1. This article isn't "flags of the Syrian civil war," but "Flag of Syria." If it were the former though then Israel should arguably be included as well, as it has actively participated in the Syrian civil war throughout the conflict, but I digress. 2. My point here was NOT that the Israeli flag should be included in the Flag of Syria article. Rather, I was arguing that another entity, whether an insurgent group or a foreign government, controlling part of Syria's territory did not make it a government of Syria, and did not mean that its flag should be listed as a primary flag of the country...

What my contention ultimately comes down to is the articles opening paragraph and the tone which it sets: "As a result of the ongoing Syrian civil war, there are currently two governments claiming to be the de jure government of Syria,[dubious – discuss] using different flags to represent the state. The incumbent government, led by Bashar al-Assad and the Ba'ath Party, is using the red-white-black United Arab Republic flag in use since 1980; while the Syrian Interim Government, led by the Syrian National Coalition – seeking to overthrow the Assad government – readopted the green-white-black Independence flag in 2012."

...This puts the SIG/SNC, and its flag, on equal footing with the actual government of Syria and the primary flag which it's represented by. This is uncalled for, and breaks with the broader consensus/conventions of Syria-related articles throughout Wikipedia, including the main Syria article.

As I've stated above, I think a good model to follow for this article would be the Flag of Iran article, which leads with a discussion of the current flag used by the current actual government of Iran.....But then, in its discussion of historic flags, includes a relatively substantial discussion of the "Lion and Sun" flag and its continued use by some opposition groups and expatriate communities. It does this though without putting the "Lion and Sun" flag on an equal footing with the flag of the actual current government of Iran. -2003:CA:83CC:F800:B5A1:AC77:E3D6:A452 (talk) 19:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

The Israeli flag discussion is a distraction. Nobody arguing for the inclusion of the 1932 flag is arguing simply that some of Syria is controlled by people who fly the 1932 flag. The arguments are, instead, (a) that there is an on-going civil war, so there is not simply one government, but an alternative entity that has come to be seen as legitimate in the eyes of a significant part of the international community (a far better analogy here would be the American Civil War: if there had been a Wikipedia then, you'd expect the Flag of America article to include two flags, that of the Union and that of the Confederacy), and, perhaps more importantly, (b) a significant number of Syrians, in the rebel zones of Syria and in the diaspora (well over a fifth of the 2011 Syrian population are now registered as refugees outside the country) identify the 1932 flag as their flag, as the Syrian flag, and see the 1980 flag as illegitimate. The 1932 flag is not the flag of "a minor faction", but used across the whole swathe of the opposition, including the civil opposition and rebel groups, as well as across the diaspora. BobFromBrockley (talk) 21:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Confederacy did not claim to be government of the US... quite opposite. If Wikipedia existed back then and somebody did such propaganda work for the Confederacy, the US government would probably use emergency war powers to shut down this entire site. Pavlor (talk) 05:26, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

2003:CA:83C1:3500:DD19:E151:C1C3:7FC5 -- In your original comments of "19:16, 6 May 2018" above, it sure seemed like you wanted to include various and diverse flags of the Syrian civil war in this article. In any case, the 3-red-star flag is not the military banner of a faction which has occupied some territory, and has not been included in this article on that basis. AnonMoos (talk) 02:57, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment What about available reliable sources? What these say about topic of this article? This, not POV arguments I see from all sides, should be basis for our discussion. I must repeat my point in the "UN recognized flag" section above: even governments not in friendly terms with the Assad regime use the 1980 flag for Syria on their webpages. Current state of the article gives equal weight to both flags, but so far no one provided sources supporting this (so often) disputed claim. Pavlor (talk) 05:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support - The American/Israeli backed insurgents have at this point lost the Syrian Civil War and the Syrian Arab Republic controls the vast majority of the territory, not only that but it is the government recognised at the UN. All other Wikipedia language articles on this topic have the government flag as the flag of Syria. The Syrian Arab Republic is the status quo.... an insurgency attempted to overthrow it and has failed. Until it is successful (not likely at this stage) then the flag should not be changed. Claíomh Solais (talk) 22:16, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

we can't change the compromise,there is still a rival government,which its militias still controlling wide parts of Daraa and Parts of Idlib.Alhanuty (talk) 23:17, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

nobody should be changing the agreed consensus,even as we are having these debates.Alhanuty (talk) 16:03, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, this "consensus" seems to be unpalatable for many editors... However, you may ask an admin for page protection, so IPs and new accounts will be not able to edit there (an admin will probably protect the article anyway sooner or later, if the edit-warring continues). Pavlor (talk) 17:10, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Whatever consensus you had years ago is gone now. Calling the opposition a Syrian interm government while calling the only internationally recognized government "assad gove" is POV. Wiki editors should stop acting as international law judges. Tawian claimed the whole of china but we wont see its flag as the flag of china because it has no UN recognition. Same goes for those opposition governments.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:18, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Don´t compare SNC/SIG to the "Republic of China". Taiwan has full sovereignty over part of claimed territory and armed forces with full chain of command. Speaking about law... our only binding authority should be reliable sources. So far no one presented strong sources supporting current "consensus". Pavlor (talk) 18:13, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

No one can decide what is a right comparison. I see the taiwan example suitable when it is aimed to compare the claim of taiwan over the mainland. Anyway, the CIA factbook is a relaible source. The flag in it is the red flag. We dont need reliable sources to prove that the flag shown in the UN headquarters is the official flag. Even then, we can use the CIA factbook to at leaat rename the section from assad government to the syrian government or I will rename the other section: flag used by rebles' governments.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:29, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Will [this reliable source bring some logic to this article and end the POV consensus?.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Good start. Now it is up to the other side of the dispute to provide at least as good source to support its "consensus". Pavlor (talk) 19:09, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

We used this model as a solution for the Flag of Libya and it worked out well,so why need to change the consensus.Alhanuty (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

The terrorists were successful in Libya, they won there so now we show their flag. In Syria, they have lost. You are comparing apples and oranges. Claíomh Solais (talk) 21:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Because you dont have a consensus anymore. Because your consensus is POV. And because the UN have other things to say.. just go to Newyork and see which flag represents Syria there. For god sake at least call it the Syrian government like you call the rebles governments with the names they chose for themselves if you have an ounce of NPOV.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Now, BobFromBrockley, Alhanuty and Anoos are with the POV consenus that doesnt exist anymore. While Me, Claíomh Solais, the IP who started this discussion, and I think Pavlor are against your "Consensus". Seems that we have a new consensus, so can you at least not use the word consensus in every comment of yours ?--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

who are you to decide what is a consensus,plus you are launching a personal attack against me,accusing me of sockpuppetry,plus we go with past precedents.Alhanuty (talk) 20:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

plus Attar-Aram syria you have reverted once again,self-revert yourself.Alhanuty (talk) 20:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Obviously you are under the impression that you have a consensus, but you dont, count the votes up till now. As for reverting, I made a new edit to a different section, so No, I did not revert again. And no, you dont go with precedents, you go with reliable sources which I provided showing that Syria have one official flag used by the republic of Syria not Assad government--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 21:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

There's no "voting" as such in settling these types of issues at Wikipedia. Overwhelming numbers of people being on one side of a dispute can have an effect, but it's not decided by vote-counting as such (see WP:VOTE)... AnonMoos (talk) 03:30, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

---

The fortunes of war have shifted, but the diplomatic gains of the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces have not been formally reversed, and the three-red-star flag is still commonly used as a common anti-Assad-regime symbol by a number of different factions and individuals. The fact that the rebellion is militarily on the ropes (without having been decisively and finally defeated) due to outside interventions, does not necessarily mean that the rebellion has "lost" (despite what Claíomh Solais says), and shouldn't by itself automatically result in changing the article page (yet)... AnonMoos (talk)

Okay, so do you agree that Assad government is POV and it is NPOV to write the Syrian Government just like you adress other governments with their self-designation ?--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 21:43, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Could you then provide RS supporting your version of the article (two equal governments - one of them called the "Assad government" - and the 1961 flag as the flag of Syria)? If you have strong source, you may have my voice on your side. However, so far only the "pro-regime" side provided any sources to support their claims. Pavlor (talk) 05:10, 21 May 2018 (UTC)