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Lampeter

What about Lampeter in the UK "Specialising in the liberal arts, Lampeter has strong academic traditions in teaching and research dating from 1822" (from site) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.236.209 (talk • contribs) 09:36, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

UK

"the term "liberal arts" is very little used in any contemporary context in the UK" - not so. Was this article written entirely by an American? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.198.58.26 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

the author's claim that the term 'liberal arts' is rarely found in the UK is entirely mistaken. In fact, the UK is one of the countries where the diversity of degrees (such as the 'joint honours' and, in particular, the 'combined honours' degrees) testifies to an educational experience that promotes all-rounded education in addition to, I would say (at the expense of, other would say) of one-sided specialisation. It said that this kind of learning was introduced from the States, where it is certainly very popular and somewhat more liberal. In any case, liberal arts education is still more respected than scientific or vocational training in the UK, although I don't know for how long. Thanks, happy to receive comments, if any. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PanosUK (talk • contribs) 20:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC) (diff)[reply]

PanosUK, what's with erasing everyone else's comments on this discussion page? And then not signing your own comment? To sign a comment, type an em-dash (a long dash), then type four tildas. — Walloon 22:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While there are a few UK institutions that use the term, most do not. A check on the websites of Russell Group and 1994 Group members' websites shows that the term "Liberal arts" is not how they generally refer to themselves or the education they offer. The article doesn't say that UK education isn't liberal, just that the term "liberal arts" isn't common. --Siobhan Hansa 22:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm British, and graduated in what an American would call liberal arts. That term is very rarely used here. UCAS does not use it as a keyword [1]. There are very few degrees of that name [2] --Duncan 16:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'd also have to uphold the assertion that the term is not common here in the UK; the "liberal arts" may be the basis of many degrees here, but the term itself is very rarely used. The key distinction here is between the terminology and the concept - we just don't tend to refer to it as "liberal arts". I wasn't even sure what the term actually meant until very recently, and I'm a university educated person with a reasonably good vocabulary; I'm embarassed to admit that I thought it was shorthand for a more politically leftwing, arts-focused type of university! (drawing on the common American meaning of the word "liberal" rather than its more general interpretation). missdipsy (talk) 12:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Having been through the UK education system (school, undergraduate and postgraduate university), worked in the academic world (university lecturer (whivh would be called some sort of 'professor' in the USofA, though that term is reserved for very senior academics in the UK, typically heads of faculty)), worked in schools, the term 'liberal arts' is almost unknown here except very specifically in reference to USofA-ian terminology.

This article, not untypically of Wikipedia, has a USofA perspective on the world. E.g. it refers to 'liberal arts' degrees being introduced in some UK universities almost as if they are following a transatlantic lead. The reality is that the subjects have been taught throughout the education system in the UK since long before the USofA existed as a country and the UK education system does not have any need to use the, relatively new, US designation.

I dispute that "In England, the first institution to retrieve and update a liberal arts education at undergraduate level was The University of Winchester with their BA (Hons) Modern Liberal Arts programme which launched in 2010"; forty years before that, at the University of Durham I was awarded the BA in General Studies in 1974, and this course was of long-standing then, but I do not know when it was instituted. It is now called the BA in Liberal Arts. (dr5357)

Regarded by many

Authenticity check: A search reveals that the phrase "regarded by many" appears in the text. Is the phrase a symptom of a dubious statement? Could a source be quoted instead? Perhaps the "many" could be identified? Might text be edited to more genuinely reflect specific facts?

Wetman 01:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The article says,

Today, the liberal arts are often promoted as "liberal" in a later Enlightenment sense, as liberating of the mind, removing prejudices and unjustified assumptions.

As the Authenticity check says above, that claim is not supported by factual evidence. The use of "liberal arts" by higher educational institutions continues the original definition, not the "Enlightenment" definition of the claim. The "by many" needs to be supported by fact before it is included as part of an encyclopedia article. —Walloon 15:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Liberal arts mean nothing. How can a student study discipline without knowing what he is studying. I think this is one of the biggest bullshits that US educational systems can offer. Do not go for it. This is a lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.55.92 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from LibArt:

Well, Liberal Arts as it is known in the Netherlands gives students a broad education. You can study psychology, mathematics and life sciences at the same time. Admittedly you will lose some of the depth of a normal study, but I personally enjoy the breadth of the study. It gives students more time to decide on which area they want to focus, which can be done by doing a masters in e.g. history or nanoscience, depending of course on your major. I wonder if factual knowledge is still the most important goal of education. To me it seems that skills like essay writing, presenting and critical reflection have become more and more important. You can argue whether this is a development that should be encouraged, but I think that a liberal arts education teaches these skills better than a normal study. This is at least the conclusion I draw when looking at most of my old high-school class mates, who generally speaking spend less hours on study than I do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.8.96 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Septem Artes Liberales

In the Artes Liberales article, I am using the wikipedia commons image of the medieval Herrad of Landsberg illustration of the Septem Artes Liberales from the Hortus Deliciarum. Is it possible that an image somewhat more contemporaneous with modern Liberal Arts could be found for the Liberal Arts page? Athaenara (talk) 22:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think the illustration does not fit this article or are you simply concerned about having the same image on both articles? And do you have any suggestions for a better free image? --Siobhan Hansa 23:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Specify

This page used to specify what a liberal degree was not. As in: "not specializing in occupational, scientific, or artistic studies." This was extremely helpful information. I have referred back to the page several times because of it. It should be added back in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.142.252.174 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

I have proposed that the article Artes Liberales be merged into Liberal arts. The former appears to consist entirely of information already present in the latter article. Granted, the information is presented somewhat differently in Artes Liberales; perhaps we want to apply this presentation to the article Liberal arts after the merge.
--Dave314159 17:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. --Duncan 16:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree but work AL content into LA. Johnbod 16:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Alex 13:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Or completley erase the Artes Liberales article.Ian 11:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merged

I've merged the two pages and have begun a barebones history section - though it needs to be expanded and developed. I've listed a few articles in the "Further Reading" section which may be of some help. -Classicfilms 19:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism of Liberal Arts Education

Shouldn't there be a section with a critical view of modern U.S. liberal arts education? 201.6.131.3 11:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~ Could'nt agree with you more. I took liberal arts for the first year of going to Queens Borough community college and people made it seem as if I was on the road to nowhere. Can a masters in liberal arts actually prove to be useful/ make you obtain a successful career? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.92.211 (talk) 16:25, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To take it one step further, is a 'successful career' in any way a worthy summary of what is important to humanity? Many, including many who have persued 'successful careers', would argue not. The fact that some people regard intellectual and aesthetic progress as a lower goal than a career-furthering, money-acquiring path is an indictment of the money-focussed foundation of capitalism that, to borrow a phrase (sometimes applied to US-Ian's in other parts of the world), demonstrates 'an understanding of the price of everything but of the value of nothing'.

US Colleges are not the same thing as Liberal Arts

The seven liberal arts is an historical precept in education and has almost nothing whatsoever to do with US-centric college system. American liberal arts colleges ought to have its own article. I don't usually have a problem with possible US bias, but in this case there is only a scintilla of connection between the article title and colleges. Every country has colleges and many of them centre on the liberal arts. The article should be about the definition and history and link to another article about US liberal arts colleges. Also: this article is really poor in information quality as it stands. (Peacay (talk) 20:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Multiple Definitions

This is not how I hear the term "liberal arts" normally used in the United States. "Liberal Arts" has at least 2 definitions, but its most common definition refers to the humanities and social sciences, and there is some dispute as to whether to include the social sciences. Many Americans disparage liberal arts as being an impractical indulgence (which I don't mean to assert here). Even the theoretical sciences are viewed as practical in the US.

It's only in the sense of a "liberal arts college" that I've ever heard of the sciences being included in the term "liberal arts." — Bostoner (talk) 03:51, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Liberal arts vs. Fine arts

I'm from the United States, and practically the only time I see or hear the term "liberal arts" mentioned is in the context of a college or university education, typically in a phrase such as College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. Such colleges typically grant degrees such as Bachelor of Science or maybe Master of Science for any science major, mathematics, and perhaps a couple other majors, or degrees such as Bachelor of Arts or maybe Master of Arts for mostly all other majors, implying they are liberal arts. These liberal arts seem to include a hodge-podge of humanities and perhaps some other majors that are not science, business, engineering, fine arts, or other "specialized" major related. In a "full" university, there are usually separate colleges or "schools" for business, engineering, fine arts, and a few other academic areas where degrees with different names may be awarded, such Bachelor of Business Administration, Master of Business Administration, Bachelor of Fine Arts, Master of Fine Arts, or some others. The fine arts include such subjects traditionally thought of as aesthetic arts such as artistic painting/drawing, sculpture, music - singing, instrumental or dancing, and perhaps a few others. Sometimes, there may be only one or a couple of such arts departments in the university and may be lumped in administratively with the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, sometimes simply called the College of Arts and Sciences, instead of having a separate college or school of fine arts. I cannot find any mention of fine arts presently anywhere in this article. I am wondering if the word liberal in liberal arts is used to distinguish those "arts" from the fine arts as previously described. Maybe it would be a good idea to compare liberal arts with fine arts in this article.
H Padleckas (talk) 05:01, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

LInks to Jstor

It is my understanding that links to Jstor are a no-no, since can't be accessed by most people. There are several of these in this (very inadequate) article. Also, the definition of liberal arts as implying that their entire purpose is to distinguish a free person from a slave is very simplistic. Also POV in that it implies that a liberal education is by definition somehow associated with institutional slavery (and therefore elitist). The other thing is that in modern usage liberal arts is more or less interchangeable with humanities, except in very religious circles. How this came about is of great interest, but this difficult subject is not touched on here. Mballen (talk) 21:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC) Mballen (talk) 21:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Liberal Arts including science, engineering, and math

I was unaware that Liberal Arts included science, engineering, and math. Maybe the article should specify that these subjects are briefly reviewed. I would be shocked to find a scientist, engineer, or mathematician claim his academic discipline is within the "Liberal Arts." 68.50.119.13 (talk) 20:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many, many liberal arts colleges offer degrees in science, engineering and math. They are not just "briefly reviewed". -- Fyrael (talk) 20:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not saying liberal arts colleges do not offer the degree. I am saying the curriculum would not be referred to as liberal arts. Instead of Bachelors of Arts for liberal arts, it would be a Bachelors of Science for science, engineering, and math. 68.50.119.13 (talk) 02:06, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's about history see Wagner, David Leslie (1983). The Seven liberal arts in the Middle Ages. Indiana University Press. ISBN 9780253351852. Retrieved 31 August 2013. also at questia [3] I will try to add some now that I'm back on line. J8079s (talk) 18:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Abelson, Paul (1906). The seven liberal arts: a study in mediæval culture. Teachers' College, Columbia University. Retrieved 31 August 2013. Free at google books its old but you can't beat the price J8079s (talk) 21:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am a physicist, and was a professor of physics for 13 years. I consider physics to be within the "liberal arts." Aside from the historical origins of the terms and the organization within existing educational systems, I use a simple test: are there jobs that require a bachelor's degree in the specific field in order to be eligible? For the liberal arts, including the natural sciences, the answer is generally no; an English major who took pre-med courses and has laboratory experience can compete for the same jobs as a biology major. For vocational majors, such as engineering, accounting, and nursing, that is not generally the case. While not a perfect test, it does suggest that the natural sciences are appropriately grouped with the humanities and social sciences under the heading of "liberal arts."SarahLawrence Scott (talk) 01:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In Helsinki University and other universities in Finland, a person graduating with a major in Physics, Mathematics, Chemistry etc. is titled "Filosofian maisteri" (Magister Philosophiae, Master of Philosophy), just like a major in Slavic philology or in Art History, because of the influence of Humboldtian system where all these disciplines are regarded as Wissenschaften. However, a person majoring in some kind of engineering will generally become "Diplomi-insinööri" (Diploma Engineer), because his discipline is seen to be more "practical" and "technical", not so much geared towards the "pure research". Engineering was historically studied in "technical colleges" and the modern "technical universities" are still mostly separate. "Luonnontieteiden maisteri" (Master of (Natural) Sciences) isn't used, because the distinction between "hard" and "soft" sciences isn't so prevalent here and it is more about the distinction between "scientific/philosophical knowledge" and "technical/practical/vocational knowledge". JJohannes (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Definition by Jacques Barzun

The scholar and author Jacques Barzun is well known as a defender of the liberal arts. In an interview on the the Charley Rose show (Episode 9406 [?], )broadcast on May 29, 2000, he said:

Properly taught, and learned—acquired—a liberal education awakens and keeps alive the imagination. By the imagination, I don’t mean fanciful things, but I mean the capacity to see beyond the end of your nose and beyond the object in front you. That is to see its implications, its origins, its potential, its danger, its charm. All the things that enable one to navigate in this difficult and complex world with a modicum of wisdom, with calm, not be alarmed with every little thing that happens and with resources that in moments of stress, and after retirement, in illness, and loneliness keep one’s soul and body alive.

He has also remarked elsewhere that this is the first time in history that the educated class has not be expected to be bi-lingual. Mballen (talk) 05:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC) Mballen (talk) 18:37, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History: Romans, Greeks and Africa

The first paragraph of this article's 'History' section contains the following passage, which is insufficiently scholarly and should be flagged up as such or revised:

'The Romans and the Greeks are often given credit for the creation of Liberal arts, but it is a well known fact they were students of African teachings. Africa was far more advanced than any nation in the world. It was also said that the Greeks and Romans were very average students at the time of their education. Through time, from jealousy and a thirst for recognition, credit for teachings began being transferred from African, to the Greeks. Anciet writings were clear about the original teachers of the arts were superior, dark skinned Africans.'

- No references are given for any of these statements, while the statements themselves involve unhelpful generalisations and are apparently polemical. Statements such as 'it is a well known fact', and 'Anciet [sic] writings were clear' should be substantiated with references. At several points, the passage avoids specifying its claims by using the passive voice: e.g. 'It was also said [by whom?] that the Greeks and Romans were very average students...'; 'Through time...credit for teachings began being transferred [by whom?] from African, [sic] to the Greeks.' The assertion that 'Africa was far more advanced than any nation in the world' is not only sweeping and unsubstantiated, but involves questionable categories of measurement: What does 'advanced' mean in this context? Which 'nations' is Africa being compared to and is the whole continent of Africa being treated as a single 'nation' here? What period of time does this assertion cover? Similarly, the assertion that credit was transferred from Africans to Greeks 'from jealousy and a thirst for recognition' is not only unspecific in its references to persons or time periods, but also uses language that makes dubious, unsupported and pejorative speculations about the motives of the people [Greeks themselves? Historians of the Greeks?] it concerns. The passage also contains several errors of grammar and spelling. 82.38.183.76 (talk) 11:37, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Liberal Arts educatio vs. Liberal education

"Liberal Arts education" and "Liberal education", in modern use, gained a new significance that differentiates one from the other. Liberal arts refers to a set of specific subjects, an area of education that focuses on the arts and sciences. Liberal education, on the other hand, is a form of education which suits a broader and less limited vision of the methods of teaching, sustained bythe principles of freedom. Even thought historically, liberal education was based on the medieval concept of liberal arts education, as this last one changed it diverged from its original connection. Therefore, their connection is just historical, and they are not especifically connect as dependent concepts to this day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:5F84:156B:1D7F:F04C:72C4:C4ED (talk) 21:22, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Only the last person was on point of merging the two articles. If you read them they present different information. Liberal Arts talks about a historical area of learning that is different from science or say vocation. Liberal Arts Education discusses what universities teach and the history of curriculum acceptance. As a person with a liberal arts education and a law degree, I think both articles should stay separate. (Who really makes these kind of decisions and when are they made in Wikipedia?)Eschoryii (talk) 21:30, 7 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As to who makes the decision: any editor can once a consensus is reached or when the discussion is stale. Klbrain (talk) 16:13, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing merge proposal due to no support for the proposal (and opposition) over 2 years. Klbrain (talk) 16:17, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Europe

The section on Europe is outdated and confusing. A more systematic approach might be preferred to organize discussion, for example building from ELAI. 71.125.15.186 (talk) 20:55, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]