Talk:He Jiankui

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Merger

I am boldly merging Lulu and Nana here. The Lulu and Nana page is putatively about those two living people but was actually about the experiment that produced them and the reactions to it. I don't think we have enough information about the two girls to actually have a page about them. So I am just boldly doing this. If it is contested, we can have a formal merger discussion Jytdog (talk) 16:27, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Nice merging.--Lvhis (talk) 18:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! Nobody has contested it yet (whew), but it is good to have some explicit agreement. :) Jytdog (talk) 19:11, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Jytdog and Lvhis: FWIW - as OA of the earlier original "Lulu and Nana" article - yes - *entirely* agree - merging that article to here (ie, "He Jiankui") seems the better article focus at the moment, at least until there may be worthy verifications and details about the currently purported (afaik) "gene edited babies", I would think - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 20:49, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

great. Jytdog (talk) 22:33, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 December 2018

It has been proposed in this section that He Jiankui be renamed and moved to Jiankui He.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Links: current log • target log • direct move

He Jiankui → Jiankui He – Corrected to original order the page was made in and according to his published scientific articles, lab website, and his social media pages CRISPR Editor (talk) 06:06, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@CRISPR Editor and In ictu oculi: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But this is the normal en.wp order. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:31, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@CRISPR Editor and In ictu oculi: The Chinese character order is 贺建奎 = "He Jiankui", with the surname first. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Anthony Appleyard and In ictu oculi:Yes but see his own Linkedin page, his facebook page, his book, Quake lab alumni website, Deem lab alumni website, his researchgate, we should follow order of how he translates it to English not other people's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CRISPR Editor (talk • contribs) 22:08, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am a scientific researcher for over 10 years and an English speaking researcher needs to be able to search for the scientist by the English order he states in his own scientific publications otherwise they are not found by the scientific community. The order should not be defined by press releases and wikipedia users- some chinese names on wikipedia are in this type of order as exceptions. "There is an exception for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering (for example, Wen Ho Lee). In this case, the primary entry should be under the Western ordering with a redirect from the Chinese ordering." Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Order_of_names Sources for name order as defined by him and his institutions: https://www.facebook.com/jiankuihe, https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiankui-he-a1917517/, https://www.amazon.com/Modularity-principle-evolution-complex-systems/dp/3844311416, https://quakelab.stanford.edu/people/alumni, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2978544/, https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jiankui_He, https://bio.sustc.edu.cn/en/?p=243, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCllbswlkjiLucnKTnS13LLA, http://www.nationalacademies.org/hk/index.html, http://sustc.edu.cn/en/news_events_1_1/2871, http://news.rice.edu/2010/11/17/new-way-of-predicting-dominant-seasonal-flu-strain/, https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/62315/wrc01279.pdf?sequence=1, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.731.6802&rep=rep1&type=pdf, https://cen.acs.org/articles/93/i43/Chinese-Firm-Enters-Next-Generation.html, https://www.genomeweb.com/business-news/chinas-direct-genomics-unveils-new-targeted-ngs-system-based-helicos-tech-clinical-use#.XAoULxNKjOQ, http://www.directgenomics.com/index.php/portal/page/index/id/10, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater. --CRISPR Editor (talk) 06:36, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. He's being refered to as He Jiankui in all newspapers as far as I can see. Laurent (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@WikiLaurent and Laurent: Hi WikiLaurent, did you look at any of the multiple references I provided? What is better source the press or his own wedding announcement? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater. --CRISPR Editor (talk) 16:50, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The "exception for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering" mentioned above, which does not apply to He, most often arises for individuals who use a Chinese name in Western (e.g. Anglophone) society where their Chinese name is reordered to Western First Last name order. The example, Wen Ho Lee worked at Los Alamos and lived in the USA for decades prior to his notoriety. He Jiankui, by contrast, has spent his life in PRC apart from 5 years in California schools. Chinese names of PRC persons are most often reported with the Chinese Last First name order that they actually use. User:CRISPR Editor does find some counterexamples including from PRC sources. But by contrast, a Google search (admittedly, a rought tool not conclusive) shows 1.6 million for "He Jiankui" vs 52,000 for "Jiankui He." NTK (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NTK and NTK: Thanks for the info. Please see this https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=469188886937&set=a.102333721937&type=3&theater--CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I saw that already. It's a datapoint but it doesn't change the overwhelming usage of his name in English text. NTK (talk) 17:15, 7 December 2018 (UTC) It's also 8 years old and dates back to when he was living in Houston, so it's not persuasive as to what to use here. NTK (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@NTK and NTK: So marriages are no longer good after 8 years. Haha :)CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:24, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since you're no longer arguing in good faith I will no longer respond to you. The question is what name is he known by in English media now. Not what he used in a wedding announcement in Houston 8 years ago. Which incidentally, in Chinese says "贺建奎" not "建奎贺". NTK (talk) 17:27, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NTK and NTK: This was a joke by the way as you can see by Haha and :). :DCRISPR Editor (talk) 17:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@NTK and NTK: Also it is not what he is known in English media. The English media is not the end all source of information, primary sources are and I am an English speaking U.S. citizen and born in the U.S. Please give me a source for this to back up your information.CRISPR Editor (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Both oppositions so far do provide primary sources: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources CRISPR Editor (talk) 19:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
More sources, not driven by the press release media storm (The wikipedia title is likely to affect press releases mentioned). We should define the name ordering before he became "famous". Press releases by the English media do not define someone's name ordering. - : His own lab website: http://web.archive.org/web/20120423031800/http://www.stanford.edu:80/~jiankui/, http://archive.li/3aMoR#selection-331.0-331.26, https://web.stanford.edu/group/petrov/BAPGV.html, https://www.eurekalert.org/multimedia/pub/27275.php, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlKwDGtikEo, http://www.frontlinegenomics.com/news/13510/direct-genomics-presents-single-molecule-sequencing-of-e-coli/, http://www.directgenomics.com/index.php/portal/team/detail/id/1, https://openwetware.org/wiki/Jiankui_He, https://meetings.cshl.edu/cshasia/Programs/2018Programs/a-genome%20program.pdf, https://loop.frontiersin.org/people/108163/bio, http://www.weizmann.ac.il/conferences/SCG2015/sites/conferences.SCG2015/files/scg2015_poster_abstract_list.pdf, https://arxiv.org/search/q-bio?searchtype=author&query=He%2C+J.
The press releases previously went by the name order Jiankui He http://web.archive.org/web/20120329125853/http://www.stanford.edu/~jiankui/news.html CRISPR Editor (talk) 20:40, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
More sources, including some from U.S. goverment sources, NIH and NSF grants, data: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSM2483562, https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=1120699

https://plus.google.com/100096913332279426232,  https://newmexicoconsortium.org/conferences/qbio/2010/summer-school/4th-q-bio-summer-school-students, http://seqanswers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16535,  https://studylib.net/doc/8706875/the-biological-physicist---american-physical-society, https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Starting-Tomorrow----5th-qPCR-Symposium-USA.html?soid=1102494410123&aid=xKzPrhsGgCACRISPR Editor (talk) 21:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]