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Without BSA

Should the Robbins medal without the BSA be included to show an example of one? A row under the medal could state with BSA and without BSA.--dep369 12:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)Dep369[reply]

Medal layout

I switched the Stange to a Stange 5 as we have a nicer pic of that one. I also moved to images to the left as Wim mentioned, but I really do not like them floated left/right unless the text is beside them. I do like centered without text. I am okay with either way. I also added a single pic of one without BSA on it per Dep369, putting it separate as it seemed to make the group pic too big, leaving little side room for text and causing problems with low resolution monitors. Rlevse 15:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Left-aligned, with text at the right, all loose end wrapped up: I'd say it is done. This is really nice, and we should let it mature for a couple of days, so that it can be considered a stable article (requirement for FA). And then put it up on the WP:FAC. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 18:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Gadget: on my screen the badge "orphan fix" looks worse as there's 1.5 sentences above the badge image now. Rlevse 23:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tweaking Language

I don't think this paragraph is accurate.

As Eagle Scout is the highest award in the Boy Scout program, it is considered comparable to the highest awards in other BSA programs such as the Cub Scout Arrow of Light, the Varsity Scouts Denali Award, the Venturing Silver Award and the Sea Scouts Quartermaster Award. It can also be compared to the Gold Award of the Girl Scouts of the USA.

I don't have an alternative. --evrik 13:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think he meant in the sense they are the highest of their level. I'll see if I can reword it. Rlevse 13:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the BSA awards, with the exception of Quartermaster are not necessarily considered equal. --evrik 19:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They are neither equal nor unequal. They are equivalent in that they are the highest award of each division. I would be just as happy putting these in the see also section. Thoughts? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather leave it where it's at. I think the article is in excellent shape at the moment.Rlevse 21:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is inaccurate, the arrow of light is given to 5th graders for attending several activities sessions, the eagle scout rank takes hundreds of hours of work, massive responsibility, and extensive planning and cannot be achieved by simply showing up.Tjb891 18:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We're not saying they are equivalent in work, but in that they are equivalent in being the highest level ...I just changed this, hopefully it's less confusing now. Rlevse 19:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a thought... the Eagle Scout award is made by the National Court of Honor of the Boy Scouts of America. In this way it is unlike any of the other "highest awards," except for Quartermaster which, I believe is still awarded by the NCOH. The NCOH also awards the Medals for Lifesaving / Meritourious action and the Silver Buffalo / Antelope / Eagle. Should the article mention the National Court of Honor as the awarding auhtority of the BSA? --Jdurbach 18:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Include wallet card image?

Would it help any to include an image of any of the generations of wallet cards? --JohnDBuell 01:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We'd need an old one (I don't think I have one) and we'd have to blot out names. But I think this is a possibility. Rlevse 01:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as I said, mine's from 1993. If anyone has a pre-plastic card one, or a modern white one to contrast that to, it could work. Or just put up a pre-plastic card one.... --JohnDBuell 01:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Did the design change between 1993 and 2003? If they did, I can scan mine. It's not in the best condition though. I think a friend of mine might have a more recent one is that one's different too. Counterfit 08:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Main page

Assuming this makes FA, I plan to ask it be on the main page on Aug 21, 2006, the 94th anniversary of the first Eagle Scout, Arthur Rose Eldred. Rlevse 15:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great idea! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Version 0.5 Nominations

In the case of FA, we should also list it for V0.5 and then V1.0 when that goes live. I don't think History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America) would qualify because I think most people wouldn't consider the MB article "significant", but Eagle Scout would certainly be.Rlevse 13:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since Gerald Ford is also listed, that makes two Eagle related articles! --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It got shot down. There's a big debate on the V0.5 talk page. Rlevse 12:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I readded it, per that big debate on talk, let another user review it like Titoxd. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 21:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reviews are the luck of the draw. Thanks for readding though. Rlevse 22:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I feel that this article is lacking some very important information. Whoever wrote this needs to include the percentige of boys who actually obtain the rank of Eagle. (I believe the figure is about 2%) Next, the author needs to include more about the enormous undertaking and difficulties of becoming an Eagle Scout. As an Eagle Scout(silver palm), I don't think this article reflects on what it truely means to be an Eagle.

Then contribute those things to it. Rlevse 00:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

new Peerreviewer.js output

  • The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question (due to possible javascript errors/uniqueness of articles).
  • See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.
  • Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.
  • There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. For example,
    • apparently
    • is considered
    • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).

All in all useful recommendations, I'd say. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC).[reply]

initial responses
  1. No.
  2. N/A here.
  3. No.
  4. I don't even see a unit of measure, but I did fix some hyphens with –
  5. apparently applies because it makes sense and there is no proof, rm considered
  6. copyedit done
  7. did that

Rlevse 23:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

military?

Somewhere, I have heard that the military officially recognizes Eagle Scouts by allowing them to enlist with an advanced pay grade, i.e., E-2 or E-3 instead of plain recruit. Or maybe it is just the army. Any clues? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.59.208 (talk • contribs)

Yes. It is in the "After becoming an Eagle Scout" section, with references 24 and 25. Took me quite a while to find those. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it is offered by all services. One of my Eagles is enlisting in the Marines and I think he's getting E-2. The Army Enlistment Program documentation states the following about the pay grade for a candidate who:
(11) Has taken part in the Naval Sea Cadet Corps (NSCC) and has been awarded Quartermaster Award (Certificate) may enlist at any time at pay grade PV2.
(12) Has been awarded the Boy Scout Eagle certificate as a member of the Boy Scouts of America (Form 58–708) may enlist at any time at pay grade PV2.
(13) Has earned the Girl Scout Gold award certificate as a member of the Girl Scouts of America may enlists at any time at pay grade E–2.
So, it is true. --Habap 17:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely true. I recall putting in the refs back then. I also personally know people who have enlisted with this benefit.Rlevse 18:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the most an Eagle Scout can enlist into the Marine Corps as is E-2. Which is the same as those with two years of High School ROTC, and a few other things. I've never heard of anyone enlisting as E-3, I don't think its actually possible in the Marine Corps. Gelston 08:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Missing Requirement

People have completed all previous requirements for being an egal scout and been outed later on or have admitted to not recognizing a god and been stripped or denied egal scout rank. I think that egal scout is a great acheivement but in fairness to the groups thta are defacto excluded even if they meet all the other laudable requirements it should at least be acknowledged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.125.106.82 (talk • contribs) 18:33 22 September 2006

As best I can tell from this, you believe that some Scouts have had their Eagle Scout denied or removed for some reason. As far as I know, no one who has actually earned Eagle Scout has ever had it removed. BSA policy is that once a badge, rank or award is earned, it is never questioned. I am also not aware that anyone has been denied Eagle Scout per se, though several have been denied membership in the BSA for various reasons. While denying membership does effectively deny Eagle Scout, it is a rather different issue, and it is covered in depth in Boy Scouts of America membership controversies. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we were to acknowledge someone who did everything but believe in God (which BSA believes is a core element of Scouting), why shouldn't we also acknowledge those who did everything except their Eagle Project? Or how about those who would have had enough merit badges if they'd just had more time? Or those that intended to make Eagle but never got around to it? If you complete all of the requirements, including living your life according to the Scout Oath (duty to God's in there) and Scout Law (don't forget a Socut is Reverent), then you're an Eagle Scout. Otherwise, you are not.
I do remember hearing that some Eagles have "renounced" their Eagle, but in the eyes of the BSA, as Ed states, once an Eagle, always an Eagle. I mean, wouldn't they "strip" it from murderers before athiests? --Habap 19:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, only a belief in a higher power is required and that is an individual thing. God is defineable by each individual in BSA. Neither church attendance, praying, membership in an organized religion, or any of that is required. One's idea of God could be a non-specific universal power. No where does it say "thou shalt be a Christian (or any other religion) and go to church each week. If an atheist doesn't like that, then he can go form his own organization. Rlevse 20:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Nothing I said indicated anything about organized religion or what form God takes. --Habap 21:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

benefits?

Howdy, I would like to see a small paragraph about the benefits of completing the Eagle award. Besides college, military, and career, what kind of discounts are there? The only one i know of is car insurance... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.133.60 (talk • contribs)

Car insurance? What company offers a discount? I would think that its going to vary by company. At one point, we had a list of various scholarships, but pared it down to the NESA administered scholorship[s and a note that there are more. If this is true, I would suggest you add a sentence stating that some companies may offer discounts. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Car insurance discounts are a trivial benefit and not worth mentioning.Rlevse 03:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I'd be interested to see this in here, as I believe some others would as well. (As an Eagle Scout myself, this would be useful information) Kcbnac 14:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure

I'm not sure why or how, but when you enter this page without being logged in, it has something on the page about maralyn monroe created the eagle scout badge. I'm not sure how to get it off or move it to another section. its on the very bottom below the references.All4One 00:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

IT was vandalism, lets us know if it comes back, should be gone now. Rlevse 00:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Next time we get featured on the main page, lets get the article protected. This is going to be a mess to clean up. I feel like leaving it alone till tomorrow evening and then reverting the whole mess. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 03:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See User:Raul654/protection. Also, there doesn't seem to be a ludicrous amount of vandalism; a few editors watching the page should be plenty. --Slowking Man 03:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I've always said, we shouldn't have to fight vandals. Everyone should have an acct and every vandal should be ruthlessly permanently blocked. Rlevse 03:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The wiki powers that be refuse to protect the main page FA. Others don't agree, like me, but the ones with power hold the big card. When my MB article was on the MP, it got vandalized over 40 times. Rlevse 03:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We are at 75 edits- some look valid, several are reverts and most are plain vandalism. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 03:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The 40 I mention were pure vandals, not counting reverts and valid edits. We have some valid edits tonight too, plus a few that don't matter, such as rearranging the table sides.Rlevse 03:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't an issue of the "powers that be" deciding anything. I would gladly protect the main page featured article if there was a community consensus to do so, and I'm sure plenty of other admins would as well. However, protection is harmful, and should only be a last resort. --Slowking Man 03:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Totally disagree, we shouldn't have to fight the vandal scum in the first place and do you really want people coming in to see the MP article in vandalized form when they first come to wiki? And if you do protect it, Raul will just get on your case....yes, I've seen that happen. I have always and will always say the arguments for not protecting the main page are pure hogwash...for example, "here's one of wiki's best, just as you call it up with porn inserted by a vandal....Rlevse 03:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
While vandalism is a problem (and hopefully the proposed stable versions system will help to alleiviate this), I'm still convinced the benefits of leaving the Main Page featured article unprotected outweigh the problems caused. Both protecting the featured article and prohibiting anonymous editing have been proposed and rejected many times. Wikipedia's openness is one of its strengths, if not its strongest, and I predict that requiring users to log in to edit would cause Wikipedia's quality and popularity to quickly decrease. --Slowking Man 03:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. And the crux of the matter is that we are dealing here with an official Wikipedia policy, i.e. a standard that all users should follow. See Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy#When not to use semi-protection. The protection should be removed. --Richardrj talk email 08:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy

Would it behoove this article to point out that the award though ostensibly for life can be and has been rescinded in cases of homosexual or atheist scouts? i guess the controversy is not pertinent to the eagle scout rank as such but rather to the BSA as a whole still it is a subject which has received some news in recent years and might be worth mentioning in some context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.229.27 (talk • contribs)

[New topics go at the bottom of the page- just click on the + beside Edit this page to start a new topic. Please sign you edits.] BSA policy is that awards are never rescinded. This has come up before- if you have a reference, please share it. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 04:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gadget is right, BSA won't rescind them, that is UFL-Urban Folk Legend. Some have apparently turn in or renounced their Eagle award, but I have not seen proof of that either. The only story along this line that is verified true is that Steven Spielberg resigned from the BSA national board over this issue, but he did not turn in his Eagle award over it. Rlevse 11:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is a lie to say that Eagle Scout is held for life. But if I try to edit to correct this with a neutral point of view, making no statements about whether this policy is "good" or "bad", it promptly gets edited out.

Notable Eagle Scouts

What are your thoughts on mentioning a few examples of notable Eagle Scouts in this article? I was thinking after the sentence "As such, they are disproportionately represented in the military, service academy graduates, major professions, business and politics" in the "After becoming an Eagle Scout" section? I think something like, "Many prominent American politicians, including several presidents (such as Gerald Ford), members of the U.S. military—including numerous Apollo astronauts, academics, and business leaders are or were Eagle Scouts" would give better context for the statement. As it is now, the statement feels kind of weaselish. Feel free to hack up my sentence, too; it's just an example, and it sounds kind of unwieldy, but my brain isn't working at full power right now.

Also, can someone find a reference for the number of Distinguished Eagle Scout Award recipients? I tried searching around on the BSA and NESA sites, and a little Google-fu, but I couldn't seem to turn up any numbers. --Slowking Man 09:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The number of DESAs is derived from a list Terry Lawson of BSA sent me, which is the list I used to build my Troop179 DESA page (yes, I counted them). A short set of example Eagles is okay with me, but I wouldn't get carried away with it. See List of notable Eagle Scouts, which is up for featured list right now.Rlevse 11:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are 1645 DESA currently on the list (copy the HTML table to Excel and it is easy to count). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you're using my list, that won't have most of the ones from the last few years. I'd have to get an update from BSA to have them. the only ones of those I have are ones I happen to hear about. Rlevse 14:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thats why I used "under 2000" in the articles. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup

When this is all done, I'm going to use the 16:46, 10 November 2006 version as a baseline and do a diff. I've seen a few good changes and I don't want to lose them amidst the sea of edits. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reef Knot?

Why is the square knot refered to as a reef knot with the two images, but as square knot in the text. These patches are always refered to as square knots in BSA literature, never as reef knots. I didn't want to change them until I found out why. --Emb021 17:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone just changed it today, but only in the images. US and BSA useage is square knot. Revert if you want, but I'm not getting heated up over it right now. I figure we will have to go through this after the main page changes. I asked a couple of the editors who looked like they were making worthy contributions to hold off a bit. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. There was another image using the term and I changed it there also. I was more concerned that they may have been some upper level Scouting Project decision and it get into somekind of 'fight' if I fixed it. --Emb021 14 November 2006

Should this be added?

  • "Eagle Scout Service Project in Africa". Retrieved 2006-11-14. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

--evrik (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is good, but I'm don't believe it would add anything. Perhaps a list of notable Eagle projects? :-) --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Palm colors

After the first three Palms are awarded, additional Palms are obtained by combining the colors such as "Bronze/Gold". These are very rare awards http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eagle_Scout_%28Boy_Scouts_of_America%29&diff=87811161&oldid=87811012 --evrik (talk) 19:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

HUH? What is the basis for this? Once a scout has earn a Bronze, Gold, and Silver Palm, they then get another Bronze and the cycle continues. I have idea what you mean by "Bronze/Gold". --Emb021 14 November 2006

I think it means that a Scout recieves another Bronze Palm, so he has, say a Silver and a Bronze Palm. I'll tweak the wording so it's a little clearer. --Slowking Man 21:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I've never seen/heard this phrasing (Bronze/Gold) used. --Emb021 21:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Bronze/Gold and refers to the combination of colored palms worn to show how many total palms you have. For example, someone with 25 MBs past Eagle would wear a Silver/Gold combo (15+10). I don't think Bronze/Gold is a legit combo though. Rlevse 22:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are right bronze (5) + gold (10) = silver (15), thus you can never have have a bronze and a gold. Here is a nice little chart. In theory, you could earn up to seven silvers (15 * 7 + 21 = 126) as there are currently 130 merit badges. This would take 21 palms * 3 months = 63 months = 5 years 3 months. If you made Eagle right at 12 years, you could earn seven silver Palms. I don't think this is article worthy, just a thought experiment. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Total number

"Up to the end of 2005, 1,835,410 Scouts had earned the rank." I just got this statistic from the NESA office. --evrik (talk) 19:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can you go ahead and add that (with a citation)? A more concrete figure would be great. --Slowking Man 21:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While 1,835,410 is technically correct, 1.8 million makes more of an impact and sticks in the mind better. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 23:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eagle Palms

There used to be a separate article about Eagle Palms, but I see its now gone and "Eagle Palms" points to this article. That's fine, but now there is no info as to what Eagle Palms are, etc. I think that a new section should be created containing the information in the old article. --Emb021 21:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was just thinking that we need a paragraph on this. How about we wait until this goes off the main page and the edit-slide ceases? It is hard to be constructive at this point. Here is the old page for Eagle Palms. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a good idea to me. You're welcome to go ahead and add it. --Slowking Man 21:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I really didn't mean to imply that Eagle Palms should be unmerged, but that the info should be merged into this article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think putting it into the main article is good enough. I just didn't want the information to be lost. --Emb021 21:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

It looks like there is a lot of vandalism on the page (probably due to it being a feature article). Should the page be 'frozen' to prevent this? --Emb021 21:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See the discussion above under "Not sure". The page was protected for a short period. We have a few more hours of this, then we can pick it back up. There have been a few good edits, and I asked a few editors who looked like they had something worthwile to hold off a bit. It looks like it has spilled over to the related articles as well. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See User:Raul654/protection. --Slowking Man 21:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I just noticed 2-3 vandals/reverts in just a few minutes in the article, and in looking at the history I saw a sh*t load just for today. --Emb021 21:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This started yesterday evening and it hasn't stopped. There have been enough folks doing reverts that neither Randy nor I have beat our brains over it. We have been reverting the other articles that are getting some attention. Getting attention on the main page is suppose to be a good thing. This article seems better and better. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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