Talk:Proud Boys
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Proud Boys article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Proud Boys Assassination Plot
The lawyer for the Proud Boys, and its former leader, Jason Lee Van Dyke, was implicated in an assassination plot that involves an audio recording made by an undercover FBI informant in which Van Dyke is plotting the murder of a person who he is suing, and that person's lawyer. According to the news reports, Van Dyke got members of the Arizona Chapter of the Proud Boys to do surveillance on the target and obtained photographs, as well as scouted places for them to shoot at the target with rifles. I think that this needs to be added to the article. Here are the news sources: https://setexasrecord.com/stories/528081198-motion-seeks-to-dismiss-van-dyke-s-100m-defamation-suit-assassination-plot-cited and https://www.dailydot.com/debug/proud-boys-lawyer-jason-van-dyke-death-threat/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Bishop1914 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
- This seems like a bit of a stretch for this article. ProudOfYourMan (talk) 16:35, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Far-right?
Can we really say they are far-right and fascist when their members and chairman have repeatedly stressed the pro-western, libertarian/conservative ideology of the group with an inclusive open-door membership regardless of race/sexuality and other characteristics? Just because left-leaning publications claim they are something does not make it fact.Harry-Oscar 1812 (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- If reliable sources describe them as "far-right", then we describe them as "far-right. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:51, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Isn't how a group describes itself and it's goals the primary determiner? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:CA01:BF60:9531:21C2:A90C:473F (talk) 00:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, because self-descriptions are rarely accurate and are in some case lies, which may be what's happening here.--Jorm (talk) 01:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- The group's description of itself is a WP:Primary source, and one of the reason we try to avoid using primary sources when we can is that they can be self-serving, which is certainly the case here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- I definitely have a conflict of interest here as a former proud boy, but if I thought the organization was affiliated in anyway to white nationalism/supremacy I would never have joined. I left not because I disagreed with the views, but because I felt the organization was roundly condemned for existing and falsely labeled as a white nationalist/alt-right group. No one I met in the course of my membership reflected those behaviors and beliefs - they were typically all right-wing libertarians and conservatives. And they weren't an all-white group in the slighest. I would think the recent events in the news would illustrate my point about what the media can do to people and groups. I do not believe it to be helping any to have Proud Boys associated with neo-fascism and white nationalism. It's disingenuous and perpetuates the culture war that is polarizing our country. [1] 209.112.216.241 (talk) 04:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- Your story is interesting, but not of much value to us. We report what reliable sources say about the subjects of our articles. WP:Reliable sources are ones which have a reputation for accuracy and for fact checking, and for correcting errors when they make them. Anecdotes such as yours do not qualify, and therefore cannot be used to support text in the article. Sorry. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- I definitely have a conflict of interest here as a former proud boy, but if I thought the organization was affiliated in anyway to white nationalism/supremacy I would never have joined. I left not because I disagreed with the views, but because I felt the organization was roundly condemned for existing and falsely labeled as a white nationalist/alt-right group. No one I met in the course of my membership reflected those behaviors and beliefs - they were typically all right-wing libertarians and conservatives. And they weren't an all-white group in the slighest. I would think the recent events in the news would illustrate my point about what the media can do to people and groups. I do not believe it to be helping any to have Proud Boys associated with neo-fascism and white nationalism. It's disingenuous and perpetuates the culture war that is polarizing our country. [1] 209.112.216.241 (talk) 04:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- The group's description of itself is a WP:Primary source, and one of the reason we try to avoid using primary sources when we can is that they can be self-serving, which is certainly the case here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, because self-descriptions are rarely accurate and are in some case lies, which may be what's happening here.--Jorm (talk) 01:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Isn't how a group describes itself and it's goals the primary determiner? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:CA01:BF60:9531:21C2:A90C:473F (talk) 00:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Proposed change
Question asked and answered |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
"While the group claims it does not support white supremacist views, its members often participate in racist rallies, events, and organizations.[24] The organization glorifies violence, and members engage in violence at events it attends" this is unsupported by the citation and should be deleted. ProudOfYourMan (talk) 16:43, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Definitely need to remove "glorifies violence" as that is unsupported by the source. Also no mention of people associated with the Proud Boys movement "often" participating in racist rallies. There's also no proof that any violent actors were Proud Boys, so that needs to be removed. ProudOfYourMan (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)— ProudOfYourMan (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I'm going to close this as a waste of time around noon PST so we can move on from this.--Jorm (talk) 15:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
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Facebook Removes Proud Boy Accounts
Facebook takes down Proud Boys, American Guard accounts connected to protests may be a useful source, especially since the accounts were killed because they were promoting violence.--Jorm (talk) 15:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- You got a source of this alleged "promoting violence"? ProudOfYourMan (talk) 15:51, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's... it's right there. Literally. Right fucking there. In the previous paragraph that you are responding to. --Jorm (talk) 15:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- You got a source of this alleged "promoting violence"? ProudOfYourMan (talk) 15:51, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- "we did not find indications in their on-platform content they planned to actively commit violence". You fucking sure about that? ProudOfYourMan (talk) 16:38, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oi. Stop baiting/taking bait. The article in this thread does say "sending armed agitators." Acroterion (talk) 16:44, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- But it does not say "promoting violence". So we shouldn't include it. ProudOfYourMan (talk) 18:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
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