Talk:Greeks in Albania

Comments

I will work on the article... Just started on it. Feel free to help out! Thanx! Pel thal (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Rename to "Northern Epirotes"

The term is really confusing, the historical right term would be 'Northern Epirotes', according to the geographic area that are concentrated. History section also proves that. There wasn't an Albanian state before 1913, and we are starting from antiquity, on the other hand the term Epirus seems historically and geographically (because of the populations concentration in the south part of Albania, a.k.a. north part of Epirus) more accurate.Alexikoua (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree. The article's title should better be Northern Epirotes (like Chameria=>Cham Albanians, Aegean Macedonia=>Aegean Macedonians). Greek minority in Albania should be ranamed to Northern Epirotes.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Strongly disagree The Greek Minority in Albania is the official term, even in Greece. (see [1]) This is not the case of Cham Albanians, because the majority of them are not living any more in Greece and do not have greek citizienship. Every minority in the world has such a name. Albanians in Macedonia, Greeks in Turkey, etc.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In that case, we should make another article for Northern Epirotes.--Michael X the White (talk) 16:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a better idea. Why not incorporate any information regarding the Northern Epirotes in this article that way we avoid confusing our readers regarding somewhat interchangeable names? Deucalionite (talk) 17:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

... and that's precisely the logical question I waited someone to make. And it is better to transform this article to one about Northern Epirotes, and including the major points here in that article. I have to mention here, that in the Northern Epirotes category belong the Greeks who come from Northern Epirus and those still residing there.--Michael X the White (talk) 17:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

These people have their own cultural identity not only inside Albania but in Greece too. There exist a 200.000 diaspora of them (according to official sources) in Greece today, and many cultural and folkloric organizations are created by them. It sounds a little wierd to call them in Greece 'Former members of the ethnic Greek minority of Albania that live in Greece now' or just 'former minotirity members of Albania'. We need a name that incorporates both the people residing in Albania and the diaspora. I mean why shouldn't we call them the way they call themselves? We can create a seperate paragraph stating the names they are called (the official, and the one that selfindentify themselves). Another solution would be to move to 'Northern Epirot Greeks' like the Pontic Greeks.

Greeks from Turkey are also called according to their geographical origin (Pontic Greeks from Pontus, Polites from Constantinople and Mikrasiates from Asia minor). People of Albanian origin in Italy are called 'Arberesh' not Albanians of Italy, thats because they have their own cultural indentity, history, dialect, have their diaspora and are called by they name they call themselves. It gets really confusing giving the name of a country's minority, without accepting their name which is part of their identity. I believe, if we give an carefull npov approach to the article, we can find a common view.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Their separate identity is created just because they are a minority in Albania. They are "Epirote Greeks" (term which does not exist) of the northern part. They are just, the Greek minority in Albania. See Greek ministry of Foreign Affairs.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

That Northern part, however, is almost 100 years in the other side of the borders and is not just the northern part. Th term Northern Epirus is widely applied. Do not forget that it was at a point an independent that had the exact name, so it is not just a geographical term as "North America" but a geo-historical one. And the term "Northern Epirotes" is applied for those who come from there.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Minor corretion: It was never independent, it was autonomous for 2 years, and occupied during the wars.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Good! So you see it was a region that had its own identity, inside the wider geographical region of Epirus. So, as you confirm, it is a historical-geographical region within Epirus, so Alexikoua's arguments have a basis.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It has a basis on the region, that there should be an article for Northern Epirus, but not for the people. If we have an article for every region`s people, than it will be called wiki`s personal pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What about deleting Cham Albanians then??--Michael X the White (talk) 21:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This dispute shouldn't even be about the name, it should be about simplifying Wikipedia articles and making them as comprehensible and accurate to our readers as possible. Having two separate articles discussing the same population is pointless and only leads to confusion. Northern Epirotes comprise the Greek minority of Albania and the Greek minority of Albania constitutes Northern Epirotes. Period. It doesn't matter how many years Northern Epirus was autonomous, the name itself was used way before the advent of modern Balkan-induced identity politics. Even though official names of regions and populations are helpful, it is our job as users to keep things simple. We can't have separate articles talking about the same thing just because one of them has to show an official name while the other has to show an unofficial name. It's all bureaucratic bullshit that is unnecessary in improving articles and improving the quality of the overall community.Deucalionite (talk) 17:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

But thats the problem 'Greek minority in Albania' does not equals with 'N. epirotes'. How should we call the Diaspora? 'x Greek minority of Albania? There are at least 200.000 people that live outside Albania now. And how should we call the people that lived before the creation of the Albanian state in this region (1913)?

There is a list of notable personalities in the 'N epirus' article, that in my opinion should be in an article like this, and not 'N. epirus'. But many of these personalities were either diaspora or lived before 1913.

On the other hand I dont understand why the article inst called 'Ethnis Greeks of Albania' but 'Greek minority of Albania' term that is closely related with the Greek minority zone of the 99 villages (something that has no legal basis according to the Albanian constitution according to Helsinki watch)Alexikoua (talk) 18:05, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

(talk) 15:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Suppose to move it 'Greeks in Albania' like ' Macedonians in Albania', is a possible solution. We will include then a paragraph explaining, who are included in this term and how they are named by every side, both official and unofficiallyAlexikoua (talk) 11:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree "Greeks in Albania" is the best solution.Balkanian`s word

Personally, I think we should keep things simple. Keep the name as stated by the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs and incorporate a paragraph stating the term "Northern Epirots" and how this term is frequently used in Greece. Deucalionite has some good points in this discussion. Pel thal (talk) 19:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Pel thal's assessment. Deucalionite (talk) 21:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Problems of the page

who on hell is de_rapper and where is his source?Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

For the last time, just give me your citations, not assumptions my friend. INLINE CITATIONS, for this totally biased aproach that you have. And you have made 5 reverts till now in this page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

'The new Albanian migration' in Nicola May, read Gregoric too. I was sure you didn't read the sources.Alexikoua (talk) 14:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC

I've add it in F.Ps. According to your approach the 'Cham Albanians' article should be deleted, its doesnt' state pages nowhere in the sources. Alexikoua (talk) 14:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Reading the New Albanian migration, pp.66 it says nothing that Vlachs were Greeks. It is quite clear by saying that "For the ottoman empire, being greek meant that the subject were also an Orthodox Christian. Thus, Orthodox Albanians, Vlachs, and other smaller ethnic groups were classified as Greeks.....In reality the ethnocultural history of the region was much more complex and fluid".

You are misciting sources. About my approach, I explained on Futs page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Dont say that, sayd about possivble Greek descent. Read on page 84-85.

The entire text of de rapper [[2]]

I think that you have to read, what WP:What Wikipedia is not, WP:RS and WP:Citing sources are, and then have this discussion. Ofcourse, every single greek in albania is part of the Greek minority in Albania, even if Albanian authorities do not recognize him as such. See Turkish minority in Greece.Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Copying is not a good idea

Greek communities in Albania? What on hell is this. I see that you created this page only in order to copy Albanian communities in Greece, but this isn`t the case. I will let you to make it a terrible page as you like it, and then I will come back, making it npov. Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course, there should be no article Albanian communities in Greece and no article Greek communities in Albania. Both titles seem political if not irredentist. Politis (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course both articles have nothing to do with irredentism. Greeks exist in Albania and Albanians exist in Greece. The problem is that there are no Greek communities in Albania, but only one, the greek minority, or the northern epirotes, or however you like to address them. Albanians in Greece are in different communities.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Greek are the biggest investor in Albania, this has created many Greek communities around Albania, Tirana and south of Tirana. But both titles should be removed.Politis (talk) 18:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

The idea of Albanian communities in Greece, is because for sure there is no connection between Chams and immigrants. In Albania there is no such a thing, because Greeks in Albania are all from the minority, i.e. "Northern Epirotes", i.e. hoever you like to adress them.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:21, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I think someone here is playing political games here and mixing cheese and chalk. We are mixing immigrant Albanians (many of whom were refugees from the Greek communities in Albania) and Chams. They have their articles, that is enough. It is reasonable to say, no Greek communities, no Albanian communities.Politis (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, make them both Greeks in Albania and Albanians in Greece.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the Greek migration policy many Vlachs are considered omogeneis, we have other community. A third are the 'filogreks' (New Albanian immigration), of unclear origin, but closely related with the official minority. According to 'the alb. new migration', actually the 'filogreks' was used by Albanian bibliography to define pro-Greeks that didnt belonged to the official minority. For example, its says that some villages in Lunhxery were full of 'filogrek'.

These people are called in Albanian propaganda filogrek and seem to have been powerful enough at some times to force pro-Albanian families to leave Lunxhëri. It the interwar period for instance, the village of Selckë is said to have been ‘full of filogrek’

see also [[3]]

About the Vlachs: [[4]]

Religion, as a criterion of classification, automatically places all the Albanian Aromanians, and also those people who call themselves Albanian Orthodox, into the „Greek minority.“

Alexikoua (talk) 18:33, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually reading carefully new alb migr. its says the opposite. de rapers conclusions are clear, although lunxhotes are told greeks by others, being a lunxhotis means "being orthodox (not muslim), albanian (not greek)",etc etc etc.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting titles, but there is an indigenous Greek minority in Albania. Regarding "being orthodox (not muslim), albanian (not greek)", there was a time when Albanian Muslims and Albanian Orthodox were like two separate nations (separate miliets) with separate rights and who fought eachother like the Serbs, Croats and Muslims (Bosniaks) did in Bosnia. So do the Greeks have a right to appropriate Albanian Orthodox as ethnic Greeks? No. And likewise, Albanian Muslims cannot really appropriate Albanian Orthodox as 'brother Albanians', at least until 1914 and, in Greece, not until the late 1940s. Of course we are all comfortable with the reality that, for centuries there have been Albanians in today's Greece and Greeks in today's Albania Politis (talk) 18:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I an albanian orthodox, was cought by my hand by the albanian muslims and they appropriated me as a fellow "brother albanian". trelokomioooooooooooooooooooo. Greeks didn`t appropriate me well I must confess it. What are this fring theories. When you say "being an Albanian", its over. When you say "being a Greek" its over.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

the albos are special and didnt go thru normal nationbuilding processes like all peoples85.74.200.72 (talk) 18:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it says about fluid indentities, some call them Albanian some filogreks. The entire paper focuses on how fluid the identities are ('better than muslims not as good as greeks'), reading all the text gives complex arguements. Did you read about the intermarriages with Greeks?Alexikoua (talk) 18:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

What are u talking about? its over? give me a break. Alexikoua (talk) 18:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Suppose you agree with the filogrek term, which is the main pointAlexikoua (talk) 18:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Intermarriage with Greeks means nothing. In Albania even Mulsim Albanians are married with Greeks. On the other hand, the conclusion is quite clear. "Being Lunxhotis means being orthodox (not muslim), being Albanian (not Greek)...". The paper says that they are accused as "filogreks", but they are not and do not with this theory. Read the whole paper, not just parts.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

nothing? when someone has a Greek mother what is he/she? suppose the stronger albania dna is prevailing.Alexikoua (talk) 19:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

calm down peeps lol 85.74.200.72 (talk)

If he has a Greek mother and an Albanian father or vice versa, then he for sure may self-identify as an Albanian-Greek, an Albanian, or a Greek, in this case "Being Lunxhotis means being orthodox (not muslim), being Albanian (not Greek)"Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

the entire text says about fluid identities, even the title. However it depends how u see the world at general.Alexikoua (talk) 19:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

you are copy-pasting certain setences. see the text as one body.Alexikoua (talk) 19:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, according to you, Lunx. are pure Albanias (what albanian communist propanga says), however we have intermarriages with Lunx. and Greeks. Also the term 'filogrek' is a syntactical error of Albanian bibliograpgyAlexikoua (talk) 19:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

No, no, according to me, Lunxhotes (some of them my friends) are human beings, with whom I speak Albanian, as a common language, nothing else. For De-Rapper, they are Albanians, and not Greeks, and De Rapper (aka "new alb migr), is the source for them.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:07, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Just as the Vlachs present [179] themselves as ‘Greek-Vlachs’, most of the Lunxhots and, although with less ease, the Muslims who migrate to Greece pretend to be Greeks, or of Greek origin, or at least Christians. It is interesting to note however that, due to the very limited number of intermarriages with Vlachs and to the generally bad reputation the Vlachs have in the area, the Lunxhots do not claim a Greek identity through an invented Vlach identity, but rather directly, through intermarriage with the Greek minority members in Dropull, Pogon and Sarandë.

Also it says somewhere that Lunx. are from the Chaonian- a pure Illyrian-Albanian- tribe (statement by a schollar from Tirana)Alexikoua (talk) 19:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

im not sure what you guysre arguing...the paper shows how identity is constructed in that area.,that chaon statement is there to explain that soem albanians attempt to give 'scientific reality' to the 'autochthon' lunx identity85.74.200.72 (talk) 19:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

We had an edit war yesterday, because you said that De Rapper was the best source, and I was just asking where he is. Now he is the worst for you? As for the above statement, he is clear "pretend to be", and later on he is more clear by saying that "Being Lunxhotis means being orthodox (not muslim), being Albanian (not Greek)"Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

'balkanians word or bw' is right here the paper says that the 'autokton lunx' identity is albanian and seperate from the greek identity some 'acquire' thru intermarriage or the greekvlach identity...cut it out alex lol of course there are greks and greek vlachs like the paper says...just this specific 'autokton lunx' identity is albanian..its a bit like calling greeks of epirus 'ipirotes' and the albanians 'alvani tis ipiru' and not epirotes too here in greece i guess..85.74.200.72 (talk) 19:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

"Lunxotes (some of them are my friends)". And so what?? My grandmother is from Souli and we know for good we're not and have never been Albanians, yet you decide we are. Of course, I forgot that people of "Albanian DNA: The oldest DNA of the Balkans" are always based on NPOV.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually it' s never said that 'filogrek' was wrong a defination, that's your opinion:

'The paper says that they are accused as "filogreks", but they are not and do not with this theory.' You know what you say? Did we read a different document?

that's your personal assumption anyway. I've said yeasterday that there is a distiction about 'Northern Epirotes' definition of the Greek migration organization and 'official Greek minority' of the Albanian state. de rapper says about filogreks (he didnt say that there weren't filogreks) and Gregoric gives the definition of the two terms.Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

chaones are greek not illyrians. lunxotes make shit up: "i'm greek but i'm not greek cause i'm albanian like chaones". good time for laughing. 71.172.193.96 (talk) 23:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

the text says that this assumption is made by an Albanian intelectual, it is not the author's conclusion, like some others assumptions about national purity.Alexikoua (talk) 00:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

yea, but luxotes think they are autoctonos (greek word). maybe they are 'secret greeks'. still think de rapper paper is a glass of crapola cola. 96.225.117.137 (talk) 01:07, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Move?

Has there been any consensus for this move [[5]] I really don't think so ...--Sadbuttrue92 (talk) 15:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

rename to "greeks in albania"

Why did you revert Greeks in Albania to Greek communities in Albania. Are they Greeks or not? If yes, Greeks in Albania for sure is totally NPOV. Nobody exept wiki uses Greek communities in Albania, while Greeks in Albania is commonly used. Per Wikipedia:Search engine test and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), Greek communities in Albania is totally irrelevant.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The concept is that we have more than one groups here are of Greek origin, Greek communities incorporates the official minority, the ones that have not minority rights, also the ones the were exiled in central and northern albania (ca. 100.000 according to minahan) and the helleno-vlachs. Alexikoua (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

100.000? The greeks of Shkodra? haha, nevermined. In every case they are Greeks in Albania, and it is a term widely used. Your term is used by nobody exept wiki. Whats the problem with Greeks in Albania? Even Greek minority in Albania, is no problem, because the Greek minority in Albania includes the officially recognized members and the unrecognized members. It is just the minority of Greeks in Albania.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

oh no, central & northern albania, mostly Tirana, Durres. I'm ok 'Greeks in Albania' (doesn't change the meaning, like adding the 'minority' term) make the move.Alexikoua (talk) 18:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Omonoia

About the 4th paragraph of the organizations section of this article:

• the first sentence is based on 2 newspaper articles Reliable sources per WP:RS#News organizations
• the second part of the paragraph is based on the 1994 U.S. Department of State report for Human Rights in Albania, which I don't think anyone doubts it's a reliable, third-party, published source per WP:RS

--Sadbuttrue92 (talk) 15:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, can I have the inline citation of "the hate crimes" that is in the Omonia section. I can see nothing in eleftherotipia and kathimerini about hate crimes.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

read them again--Sadbuttrue92 (talk) 16:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Eleftherotipia is talking about the greek citizienship of the greek minority and Kathimerini about the inclusion or not in the census of ethnicity. They say nothing about crimes.

Eleftherotipia: "Σήμερα υπάρχουν περίπου 90.000 Ελληνες Βορειοηπειρώτες με αλβανική υπηκοότητα, η ελληνική εθνικότητα των οποίων αναγνωρίζεται και από την Αλβανία επισήμως. Επίσης, υπάρχουν και άλλοι Αλβανοί υπήκοοι που τους αφαιρέθηκε αυθαίρετα από την Αλβανία η ελληνική τους εθνικότητα και η ελληνική παιδεία."

Kathimerini: "Η άρνηση των Τιράνων να συμπεριλάβουν στο ερωτηματολόγιο της γενικής απογραφής (άρχισε την 1η Απριλίου και ολοκληρώνεται στο τέλος του μήνα) λήμμα για την εθνικότητα υποχρέωσε τους Βορειοηπειρώτες σε αποχή, η οποία έφερε ήδη τα πρώτα της πολιτικά αποτελέσματα. Στη συνάντηση που ο πρωθυπουργός Ιλίρ Μέτα είχε αυτή την εβδομάδα με το προεδρείο της «Ομόνοιας», ουσιαστικά αναγνώρισε την ύπαρξη του προβλήματος. Στην προσπάθειά του να το πείσει να σταματήσει τη μαζική αποχή, υποσχέθηκε ότι αργότερα κάποια στιγμή θα πραγματοποιηθεί ειδική απογραφή για την ελληνική μειονότητα."

On Dep of State you`re right. I read it wrongly.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Have you read WP:RS? How can you put as a RS, newspapers, without at least stating that greek newspapers state that.... Of course is not a RS a newspaper with the title "υπουργείο Εξω(φρεν)ικών", and per WP:RS, comments or read it "ΣΧΟΛΙΟ" as Kathimerinis should not be used.19:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• this one is a ΣΧΟΛΙΟ and thus does not fulfill WP:RS#News_organizations, which states in bold that "Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact".; The two others do cite greek government officials, so you can not use them as such.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

There are 3 different sources that state facts the fact is undisputed by the writer terefore he reports it and then proceeds with his comment - ΣΧΟΛΙΟ. I don't appreciate the way that you are trying to discredit my contributions. I have never made bad faith edits like you are doing right now. Please back off--Sadbuttrue92 (talk) 19:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Back off? I am not going to allow you adding totally biased sources. This just means that you have no source at all, and thats why you add this fullish sources.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

On numbers

Cia factbook reports that according to 1989 based estimations the number of Greek minority in ALbania is 95,000. The same as Roudolf. You are adding this number to the population of Greek minority of Albania that lives today in Greece. But this cannot be done, since in 1989, from which this autohrs make their estimations, there was no member of the minority in Greece. All of them were in Albania, and all of them counted 95,000 to 150,000. You cannot add them to each other, cause the members of the minority that live in Greece are just a part of this population.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It seems that their number is disputable. CIA says that they are all 100 000, so it does not acknoledge as right the numbers in Greece. So the minimum is this. The maximum is to be discussed.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

About numbers the situation is very tough. The minimum number in Albania is 35.000 (2001) and the maximum 400.000, but both of them are disputed. On the other hand the number of them in Greece (189.000) incorporates only those that still retain Albanian citizenship. So, noone knows an excact number for sure. I suggest to live it that way, unless a rs comes in handy (or a new census).Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Come on, wiki is not about official policies. The problem is that CIA, does not refer actually to the number in Albania but to the whole number of the members of the minority whether they are in Albania or Greece. So we cannot sum up it with the number of the members of the minority in Greece, cause even if they are different numbers, its like numbering twice every member of the minority in Greece, and once the ones in Albania.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

According to official data, there are still the 189.000 (2008) in Greece and 35.000 (2001) in Albania right? Could be a nice minimum (224.000), considering that there was not too much migration towards Greece that period from ethnic Greeks (2001-2008), see p. 11: [[6]].Alexikoua (talk) 22:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

So this is a close approach to avoid number them twice, right?.Alexikoua (talk) 22:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no source about the 35,000 in Albania, is there?Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

[[7]] p.11 says stats on present minorities (could be 2008)Alexikoua (talk) 22:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok then, but not the minimum. The minimum is wat Cia states 100,000. THe maximum is 224,000, i.e. the number in both countries.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe that it schould be maximum, these are official number about the same year (2008), but at least there is a number of them that have swiched to Greek citizenship (Pyrros Dimas for example) not to mention a diaspora (especially the ones that moved before the communist regime). P. Ruches talks about 15.000 famillies in America, but that was in 1965.

Also the number in Albania (35.000) doesnt take into account Himara region (the report gives a very small number in the 1989-most propably does the same with the 2008 estimate- census about the entire Vlore district, ca. 200). I believe the maximum schould be raised more than 224.000Alexikoua (talk) 22:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

In every case, the minumum should be the CIA factbook one.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The CIA estimate is clearly about the the number in Albania only, not both countries. The ~200,000 in Greece should be added to that. --Athenean (talk) 10:30, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

No, because the CIA estimate is based on 1989 census, when no member of the minority was in Greece.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Currently 70,000 in Albania according to the UNPO [8]. 150,000 in Albania according to a 1994 Helsinki Monitor report [9]. And anyway, where does that minimum figure of 35,000 come from, and why give only a minimum figure for those still in Albania? --Athenean (talk) 14:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

We have not treated UNPO as a RS in Cham Albanians, and as far as I know, in any page on wiki. Why should we treat it here as a RS?Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

There you go again with your usual nationalist tactic of attacking any source you don't like. UNPO is of course a perfectly reliable source, and whether or not you use it in Cham Albanians is your problem and not a valid argument against using it here. --Athenean (talk) 15:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Since the matter is anyway complicated, I propose we create a "Estimates of the Minority's Size" subsection where various estimates can be presented and disucssed along with their merits. --Athenean (talk) 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree about that. Also I have requested an opinion on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#UNPO_on_numbers whether UNPO is reliable or not about numbers.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

To Athenean: Don't let the prefix "UN"- fool you. This organisation is essentially just an association of individual ethnic partisan and lobbying groups, such as, in this case, the OMONIA party. All information on the UNPO website seem to be basically just self-reporting by those member organisations, with no filters against their individual bias and self-interest. I don't see any signs of UNPO doing any independent fact checking from external sources in these pages. So, hardly a reliable source, most certainly not a neutral one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Point taken, but to my knowledge, the Greek Epirot lobbying groups and ethnic partisans use a figure of 300,000-400,000 for the size of minority. The UNPO estimate is considerably lower than that. --Athenean (talk) 17:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

We do not know the population estimate of the Epirot lobby in Greece, USA and Canada. So summing up it may go to that number, i.e. 400,000.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

According to this Helsinki Monitor Report [10], OMONIA gives an estimate of 300,000-400,000 for the size of the minority. In any case, that same HM report estimates the size of the minority at 150,000, and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't use it. --Athenean (talk) 17:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Wait a sec, the source used by Balkanian for the lowball estimate of 35,000 is nothing more than an Albanian government report submitted to the Council of Europe. It is entirely partisan, non-neutral, and as such, unacceptable. In light of the above discussion I propose we get rid of both sources and use the GHM report [11] I mentioned above until further notice. --Athenean (talk) 17:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

GHM says that "Greeks of Albania", obviously including all the members of the minority (even the ones in Greece). In every case I would not be enthusiastic about using GHM reports (as I did not include it in Cham Albanians), because it is a ideological organization.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

An "Ideological organization"? Are you kidding me with this? What ideology? A nationalistic Greek one perhaps? But the HM report was perfectly acceptable to you when you used it to quote a figure of 40,000 Albanian speakers in NW Greece that identified as "Shqipetars", if I remember correctly. Come on get serious. HM is a neutral source, and as good as we're likely to get for now. Besides, it bases its estimate on the performance of the Greek parties during the Albanian elections, so of course its estimate only those Greeks present in Albania, not all "Greeks of Albania as you disingenuously claim. --Athenean (talk) 17:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

No GHM is not used in Cham Albanians, because after the discussion held it was agreed that it is not a RS. If you want to use it, than go on, but not for the number in Albania, but for the total number of Greeks. It clearly states "the Greeks of Albania", and not "in Albania", and is based on the electorate of the minority parties, which includes all Albanian citiziens, not only the inhabitants of Albania.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Ofcourse there should be a maximum number, if there exists from a RS. I am trying to find a RS also about the lowball of the members of the minority in Greece.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

There is absolutely no way you are going to convince me of using that ridiculous Albanian government report (written in bad english, among other things) over the GHM report. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. It's like me insisting on using the figures given by OMONIA. --Athenean (talk) 17:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not want to "convince" you, and I too belive that the Albanian number is ridicoulus, as the Greek one for the ones inhabiting in Greece, is too. The problem, is that GHM (which I still do not think as a RS) is talking about the minority number in general, as it is talking about the electorate, and the electorate includes all the citiziens. Also, it confort this number (150,000) with the number given by Omonia, 300-400 thousand, which is also the total number of Greeks claimed by Omonia. It also confrotns it with the total number given by Albania and Cia Factbook, so there is nothing to be said about the number of Greeks of ALbania, still living in Albania.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

For the second time, the GHM report bases its estimate on the electoral performance of Greek minority parties, so its estimate can only include those Greeks minority member physically present in Albania, as I have said previously and you pretended not to hear. Enough with your κουτοπόνηρα attempts to undermine a perfectly good source. Here's an idea: Why don't you ask FP for an opinion like you did for UNPO?--Athenean (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

About numbers, Winnifrith gives 60.000 (2002). Another source is minahan (he shows his sources too) giving (2002) [[12]]: 196.000 (36% of 547.000) and for Vlachs 82.000 (15% of 547.000) (counting them together to 280.000).Alexikoua (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

No, you do not hear. Every Albanian citizien is a member of the electorate, not the inhabitants. Albanian citiziens living in Greece, form too part of the electorate. Alewxikouas source is not Winfrieth it is "Encyclopedia of the stateless nations". A tertiary source, WP:RS.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not see it. Winfrith is ok.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, again. But searching on Winnfrith there is nothing about 60,000.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The GHM report explains in excellent detail how it arrives at the estimate of 150,000. Your point is silly, as you pretend not to undertstand how the GHM arrived at its estimate.--Athenean (talk) 18:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? GHM sates on numbers the total number pretended by ALbania, the total number pretended by CIA, the total number pretended by Greeks, and is .... estimating only a partial number of it?Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Since I am getting tired of your little games, I will quote the GHM report directly so that all can see: --Athenean (talk) 18:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

"Calculations based on the electoral behavior of the minority party Human Rights Union in the March 1992 parliamentarian elections and in the July 1992 local elections leads us to intermediate estimations. In fact, in the above-mentioned elections, the Human Rights Union took 49,000 votes in the parliamentarian ones and 56,000 in the local ones, despite the lower participation in the latter. These votes correspond to a 3%-4% of the total electorate. If we relate these percentages to the population (Albania today had almost 3,5 million inhabitants), the electoral scores of the minority party leads to an estimate of about 100,000-140,000 persons. Of course, some of the Human Rights Union voters are not Greeks, but, on the other hand, some minority members voted for other parties (which elected 4 Greek deputies). Taking into account all these facts, one may conclude that the Greeks of Albania number almost 150,000. In the 300,000-400,000 figure which the Greek side asserts, all Vlachs and some Orthodox Albanians are obviously included."

As we can all clearly see, the figure of 150,000 is the GHM's own estimate, and it takes into account that not all those who voted for these parties are Greek. It is a WP:RS, so case closed. --Athenean (talk) 18:17, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

And now go and read this, which states that the population of Albania before immigration started was 3,335,000. So in 1994, the population (3,500 thousand) is simply the total number of Albanian citiziens. If you are going to add that, then I am going to erase the members of the minority in Greece, as they simply did not exist.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

and that same source [13] states that the number of Greeks before emigration started was estimated to be 266,000 by the US government. --Athenean (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Pettifer in The Greeks: the land and people since the war. (1993) says about 200.000. See also the last page on this: [[14]] (Winnifrith), gives some estimates.Alexikoua (talk) 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I wonder why did you forget the next sentence, which confront this number with the total number pretended by Omonia?Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Pettifer may be a RS, as Winfrith too, but there should not be a kakofoni between the total number and the numbers in Albania and Greece. Pettifer and Winfrith as well as the GHM report, speak about 1993-1994, when the number of immigrants was away too small comparing to today. Some of them are counting twice.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

That last part is pure speculation and OR. --Athenean (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The last, is not a speculation, because there exists offical statistical data on the number of immigrants then and now. If we count the 93 pop of Greeks in Albania and the 08 pop of members of the minority in Greece, when in those 15 years, the immigrants were trippled, then for sure some are being counted twice.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

And by the way, just unswer on my question above. 3,500 cited from GHM is the number of the citiziens not excluding immigrants.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

What official statistics? I thought you HATED government statistics, especially Greek ones. I see no sources to back what you're saying. As far as I know, you could be making this up, so it is a bunch of OR. --Athenean (talk) 18:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Youre making noise as always. Read the population fo Albania before immigration started [[15]. It was 3,335,000 in 1991. In 1994, was 3,500 the total number of albanian citiziens.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The current pop. of Albania today is given as 3.6 million. Considering there are ~500,000 holders of Albanian citizens in Greece, that would mean that if all those immigrants had stayed in albania, the population today would be 4.1m , and that would not even include the large numbers of immigrants to Italy and other places. I don't think that Albanians are such prolific breeders. In any case, this is all a bunch of BS and little word games. We have a WP:RS that gives a figure of 150,000. A WP:RS is a WP:RS is a WP:RS. You can twist whichever way you like, the fact remains. --Athenean (talk) 18:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The current population of Albania is 3,170,048, see the official statistics [16].Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Look Cia factbook of 1994. It says that the population of Albania is 3,374,085 and the Net migration rate: -5.27 migrant(s)/1,000 population. With 1,21% population growth. Sum them up and you`ll see the total number of albanian citiziens.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Based on CIA factbook 1992-1993-1994-1995 growth rates, 1,8-1,21, Albanian citiziens were 3,515,987 in 1995, while the inhabitants of Albania 3,374,085. So GHM clearly speaks about the total number of the members of the minority. FULLSTOP.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

You are deep, deep into OR territory with these bizarre mathematical games. The GHM report is clear: Its estimate is based on the electoral performance of Greek minority parties, therefore your argument is void. GHM is a reliable source, and it explains the method it used to arrive to this estimate in crystal clear terms. Untill a better source is found, we go with this. Fullstop. --Athenean (talk) 22:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, according to the US Library of Congree country profile on Albania, according to a US government study, the pre-migration number of Greeks in Albania was estimated at 266,000. Thus a figure of 150,000 left in Albania by 1994 seems very reasonable. --Athenean (talk) 22:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

No, because as you say Its estimate is based on the electoral performance of Greek minority parties, and the right to vote has every single Albanian citizen, ofcourse including those immigrants. Why then, the GHM report, confront this number (150,000), with the number given by Omonia (400,000) which includes all members of the minority?Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm geting sick and tired of your journalistic games. You play dumb, pretend not to listen or understand, and resort to all sorts of tricks and mathematical games to try to sabotage any source you don't like. The migrants in Greece could not have voted because they were in Greece at the time, and it would have been impossible for them to vote. Try thinking about that, yeah? It's quite apparent that any figure above 35,000 is too much for you, and you will repeat yourself as long as it takes to have your way. I'm sick of repeating myself, and it's getting late. The GHM report is crystal clear. 150,000 in Albania as of 1994. I have said all I've had to say and will now let other users comment. --Athenean (talk) 22:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Where do you find these? Don`t you know that immigrants can vote in embassies? But in Albania the case is even more clear. read this: "One of the election's more interesting controversies centered around allegations that Greek activists had brought 40 busses of Albanian emigrants living in Greece back to vote in favour of the Greek minority candidate running in Himara."Balkanian`s word (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

And by the way: No, I too think that 35,000 is not the accquarate number, but 150,000 is far away too much, more than Omonia pretends.Balkanian`s word (talk) 23:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

How did I missed that? You`re far away out. "Calculations based on the electoral behavior of the minority party Human Rights Union in the March 1992 parliamentarian elections and in the July 1992 local elections leads us to intermediate estimations". In 1992, was the first year of migratory process from Albania my friend. Per CIA :

"PEOPLE Population: 3,285,224 (July 1992), growth rate 1.1% (1992)

Birth rate: 23 births/1,000 population (1992)

Death rate: 5 deaths/1,000 population (1992)

Net migration rate: --6 migrants/1,000 population (1992) "

Only, 18,000 immigrants had left Albania. So you`re obvioulsy out of the way, on your interpretation.Balkanian`s word (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

According to this US Library of Congress country study [17], a US government estimate of the number of Greeks in Albania before 1991 was around 266,000. So 150,000 still in Albania and 100,000 in Greece by 1994 seems perfectly reasonable, and definitely more so than your contorted mathematical games. The main problem for you is that you do not have a single source except that unacceptable Alb. government report to the COE, which I am going to remove on the grounds that it is not a WP:RS. So take your pick: Either the GHM report, or the LOC study. But there is just no way we are going to go with a highly partisan Albanian government report written in crappy english and filled with questionable statistics. --Athenean (talk) 12:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok then, if this is your game, I am going to remove the number in Greece, because it is based on a crappy Greek statistic.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:07, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

GHM report, which I insist that I do not think is a RS, spaks clearly about the total number of the population. There is no math game in here. Its quite obvious, GHM reports based on 1992, were no immigrants existed, reports based on 3,5 milion which was the number of Albanian citiziens not the inhabitants, and confront this number with other estimations about the total number of the minority. You`re playing word-games, and you know it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

You think the GHM report is not a good source but that your ridiculous Albanian government report is? What hypocrisy. The Albanian government report is trash, and I am removing it. Do what you want, but the Albanian government report goes to the trash bin. Now. And don't reinsert it. Even you yourself admitted it was "ridiculous", so don't pretend. --Athenean (talk) 12:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

let me propose something else. All RS that we have till now speak about a population 100-150 thousand in total (CIA, King, Roudolf, Winfrith), while Pettifer puts their number in 200,000. Why don`t we make the infobox 100-200 thousand, without numbers on the countries (just listing them) and create a section about the size of the minority?Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I still think that the Alb Rep is ridicoulous, as every state report for minorities in the Balkans, except the cases like RoM and Montenegro, when censuses and estimates on them are monitored by CoE, and other organizations.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I think your proposal makes sense. People constantly move between the two countries, and it is impossible to pin down the exact number in each country, as it constantly changes. So I think it is a good idea. BTW, as maximum, I would use the LOC study [18]--Athenean, which is also neutral and reliable. (talk) 12:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem about the number (i.e. 266,000). I think there would be other sources to have that. But, I would avoid LoC, no because it is not reliable, but because the flip-flop of American Government position, which went from 8 per cent to 3 per cent in one year (after the fall of communism). Per WP policy the newest version should be used.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Again

I dont see why not mention the estimates by Northern Epirote organizations adopted by Minahan (280.000), excactly same situation whith Chams and Vickers. It has a logical basis counting only the 189.000 that are considered omogeneis in Greece, plus the Vlachs (self called HellenoVlachs)Alexikoua (talk) 09:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Because:

1. It is an encyclopedia (TERTIARY SOURCE)

2. The fact that Vlachs selfdecalare as Helleno-Vlachs should not be generalized. Not all Valchs of Albania (only a minority) self-declare as Greeks.

3. the 189.000 that are considered omogeneis in Greece does not mean that all of them are Greeks (some pretend to be ref De Raper ref

4. I have no problem with the number itself (280,000), as an aproximate number (250,000) is in the article itself, but it should be sourced. None of those two numbers are sourced by secondary RS.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Are there any Greeks in Korçë/Korça according to Vickers' book?

I searched on Google-books the book of Miranda Vickers & James Pettifer (1997). Albania: from anarchy to a Balkan identity. Neither Korçë[[19]] nor Korça [[20]] were mentioned in that book. See for yourself.Guildenrich (talk) 20:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The source states in p. 187: [[21]], ...there was bitter inter ethnic conflict in the minority region of Korca and Gjirokaster.

Minority region is a region were a minority exists, here the Greek since the specific section in book deals with them. This book isn't the only one that states that about Korca, but it is characteristic since Vickers has been repeatedly accused of being clearly pro-Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 09:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Rene Puaux' book is so very very pro-Greek, it's not NPOV. Cretan irregulars fighting in the area do not qualify as "ethnic minority". Who accuses Vickers' book of being pro-Albanian. Have you read it all? Guildenrich (talk) 13:22, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The author is Vickers nothing to do with Puaux, which is mentioned afterwards. Suppose you misuse it intentionally.Alexikoua (talk) 13:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Panajot Pano

Panajot Pano was an Albanian, not a Greek. Read the article. He was of Greek origins, but per his article he is Albanian. I find this edit to be POV. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 19:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

He was Albanian of Greek origin, or else Greek-Albanian. The removal from a "Greeks in Albania" list, including those of ancestral descent as per userbox, is still unexplained. I suggest, in similar cases, you initiate a discussion in order to avoid misunderstanding.Alexikoua (talk) 20:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the best solution is to change this article's name into Greek Albanians, similar to Albanian Americans or Greek Americans. What do you think? --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 20:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't thing that googlehits agrees, it's not only about this article but the majority of the communities in Europe preffer the title 'Xs in Y' instead of 'X-Ys'. Off course, if it's possible to provide some specific arguments for this removal we can discuss it.Alexikoua (talk) 21:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanas Vaja

Thanas Vaja, called by Greeks Thanasis Vagias, is Albanian from Lekli. See [[22]] Those who most confidentially surround his person are Albanians [...] the individual whose influence with the Vizier is most powerful and decided, is Athanasius Bia [...] a native of Lekli. Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia, &c: during the years 1812 and 1813 p. 196.

Where did you read that Athanasios Vagias is Albanian in this book? It's nothing like that. If someone was born in modern Albania this doesn't necessary mean that he is Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 22:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Since the above book didn't clarify if he was Greek or not (although only the Greek form of his name is mentioned) there is also this: [[23]], [[24]] and [[25]].Alexikoua (talk) 22:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

According to Tajar Zavalani and Irakli Kocollari, two Albanian historians, he was Albanian and the closest person to Ali Pasha, as he was a friend from childhood, but I get those references from blogs so until I read the books, I can't confirm. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 01:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

An article on Thanas Vaja has been published in 2006 in Korrieri [26]. Call to the Albanian wikipedians to read it and provide sources. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 02:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Sulmues' you can also use googlebooks search instead of blogs.Alexikoua (talk) 10:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm using copy-pasted books in blogs because in googlebooks Albanian publications for the 1950-1990 period are almost inexistent. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 23:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua books from 1822 and books like "Islamic Homosexualities" aren't reliable. I don't think that I should copy/paste FutureP's reply after he removed similar sources in Ali Pasha.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:32, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

That's what you claim. By the way the fictious 'Thanas Vaja' has zero hits in english bibliagraphy.Alexikoua (talk) 10:38, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not claiming he was Albanian or Greek or anything else, because there isn't enough evidence.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:44, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The guy is known in Albanian historiography (at least by Zavalani) as a cruel general that would perform a massacre when no one else wanted to do it. I'm not sure whether either Greeks or Albanians would want him on their sides. So far, the only article that I have found is in Korrieri magazine and someone in Albania could find that. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 16:01, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Ever thought of using English speaking publication, like this [[27]]?Alexikoua (talk) 23:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Dear Alexikoua, are you bringing a Alexandre Dumas' novel now? No writers here please, only historians. Btw he still is a cruel man even according to Dumas. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 00:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually he is one of many. Why dont you like Dumas, he is extensively used in Ali Pasha article which you find mysteriously ok and tagfree [[28]]Alexikoua (talk) 00:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

George Tenet

I know the title is Greeks in Albania, which I understand as Greeks who live or have lived in what is today Albania. So I simply suggest George Tenet, former director of the CIA because through his mother his has roots in southern Albania. One more point. One hundred years ago, the allegiances between Othodox and Muslims were different, even though they belonged to a cultural continuum. For instance, if they landed today in a football match between Albania and Greece, each would support the Muslim side or the Orthodox side. But if we told them that the teams represented countries and not faiths, I am not sure who they would support. They might even walk out of the match in disgust in search of the cultural continuum. However, in a match between an Albano-Greek team and Turkey, I have no doubt who they would support. Politis (talk) 09:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization

I think we remove all links who cite the book in Wikipedia. In Google books no preview. The Northern Epirote polyphonic tradition, with links in ancient Greek music, stil alive today, is of considerable musicological interest and merit as a performing act[27]. [Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization]. M. V. Sakellariou. Ekdotike Athenon, 1997. ISBN 9789602133712, p. 418. This shows only picture below:

I cant understand anything from book. |Says only "and charity associations of this period particulary in the provinces coveredn a wide variety of the peeds of the inhah- of the inhabitants of Northern Epirus is handed down from generation to ganeration through the unwritten."

File:Wldkrfthwoeirowcnd.png

Stupidus Maximus (talk) 11:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The wrong snippet is uploaded, the right is here [[29]].Alexikoua (talk) 22:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

RSN on Vickers

There was an RSN on Vickers, so I expect all users to follow the result of that RSN and not remove her work--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:02, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

There has been multiple explained that she is a partisan source. Since there was no explaination for this disruptive addition, hope there is no problem removing her.Alexikoua (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua there was an RSN that was very consice on Vickers being RS, in which you took part.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The case was about the paper in general,not about the specific fact. Let me remind you that several administrators expressed concerns about her [[30]] on several parts of her work. So you need to fill a case about the specific fact that Vickers cites since in the past several of their (questionable) claims have been rejected as completely unreliable (foe example she takes material from ulranatiolist Albanian newspapers, or eyewitness accounts of extremist groups).Alexikoua (talk) 11:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

By the way I don't see a 'resolved' icon there. Seems this 'rsn' concensus is again part of the typical misinformation attempts (both here and irc).Alexikoua (talk) 11:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

There was a concensus on 'On numbers' section of the current talkpage, actually the number reflects populations that life both in Greece and Albania after the collapse of the communism (in order to avoid double counting them): so even if Vickers would be considered wp:rs, this claim can't be added unless we add the number that has been moved to Greece after 1989 (we will have serious problems on this occasion as stated on the above section).Alexikoua (talk) 11:46, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Please follow the results of the RSN [31] and don't make wp:tend comments--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:15, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You have to read this discussion and the 'on number' section concensus. Please feel a specific case, since she has been rejected [[32]] by several administrators on several specific parts in the past, apart from ignoring previous double counting issues on 'On numbers' section. Alexikoua (talk) 12:18, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Typical instant reverts

I was reverted in zero time with this explanation [[33]]. However I don't see why this can by justified 'research made by a Greek', actually the source says 'according to official data'. So far the only official data is the 1989 census conducted by a totallitarian regime and which is highly questioned.

It's really sad we have to recycle the same discussions again and again but we can't avoid blind revert strategies by specific members.Alexikoua (talk) 20:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Recent surveys taken by Greek scholars have furnished the surprising number of sixty thousand. However I don't see why this can by justified 'research made by a Greek', actually the source says 'according to official data' Apparently you're idhting and blindly reverting everyone, which is really disruptive as you didn't even try to verify Spyenson's edits before reverting back to your version.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

(I was not the one instant reverting without initiating a discussion if you mean that). In case you revert please use the ref properly since it lacked all essential info (page for example) [[34]], and this can be easily misunderstood "According to Albanian official sources, the non-Albanian population consists of sixty thousand Greeks" is also part of this document.Alexikoua (talk) 20:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua is right. From the source provided: According to Albanian official sources, the non-Albanian population consists of sixty thousand Greeks. There is no in-text citation to verify this, hence I will revert it per WP:RS. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 20:52, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I have twice explained the quote: the first time was before Alexikoua's second revert and the second one before your revert A Macedonian. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I am under advisement to apologise for the misplaced revert earlier, of Alexikoua's edit, which was incorrectly marked by myself as vandalism. It was not a vandal edit, and I apologise for offence caused to the editor concerned, and others working on this article. BarkingFish 21:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Please read further in [35]. Sixty thousand is brought up as a figure twice, both as a number cited by the communist government AND by another study (Koloumbys Veremis Nikolakopoulos, O Elenismos tis Alvanias (Sideris, Athens, 1995)). Spyenson (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

That's the point, it's outdated, while the current reference is not. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Spyenson. The misunderstanding was created because the ref lacked details (page and in this case quote, since the '60.000' claim is stated twice). However, per long established consensus this line also includes population that moved to Greece after 1989 (not only Albania), as the infobox says (in order to avoid double counting since most of the Northern Epirotes have dual citizenship).Alexikoua (talk) 21:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

When does it become outdated? The reference used to cite the high number was published in 2000. Further, the CIA data is based on 1989 government figures (6 years older, and by your side of the argument's opinion, more biased than the source I am proposing).Spyenson (talk) 21:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The original study was published from 1995, the CIA factbook is from 2010. It gives a figure of 3% out of a population of 2,986,000, or approximately 90,000. Do you have any basis for claiming the 2010 factbook is based on the 1989 census (which was actually 58,000 or 59,000)? I certainly don't see how that can be. 1995 is not ancient, but 2010 is certainly preferable. Athenean (talk) 22:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

"Albanian 95%, Greek 3%, other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian, Bulgarian) (1989 est.)" Spyenson (talk) 22:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Since the number now does not include the population that moved to Greece after 1989 [[36]] (per past concensus), I guess it's not problem to add the recent estimates of Northern Epirotes that live in Greece.Alexikoua (talk) 11:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)You can't add the same population twice, because a higher estimate of c. 200,000 can't exist in both countries without mentioning the fact that you don't even know how many people don't have Albanian citizenship anymore. Btw I may ask for uninvolved intervention.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

twice? I'm sorry but you are extremelly oring now. Please use references in what you claim, wp:own is very disruptive: its the second 'instant revert' you perform in 24h here not to mention the irc attempt to deceive the community.

Also the official census in Greece says 200k so the number in both Greece and Albania can't be less than 200k (?)Alexikoua (talk) 11:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not a revert, it's a new version and please don't make npa violations. Btw you had added the source of University of Koln saying that up to 70% of the minority lives in Greece [37] so I'm not making any or deductions.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You still need to prove that 60k is the minimum in both Greece and Albania, which is completely wrong since 189k are counted only in Greece. Also as Barjaba says the 60k number is counted only in Albania so we have a min of 189+60 which was the version that was blindly reverted without still a single argument (seems we just have an extreme wp:own and wp:or activity with irc misiformation attempts claiming that my edits are vandalism: no wonder BarkingFish who was misiformed in irc apologized about this [[38]]).

Alexikoua (talk) 11:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)I never said that you were vandalizing and as for irc activity admins have told me about your attempts to get me banned as a sock when I signed up. You added the same estimations twice so please don't make or deductions about them. Btw per RSN we should also include the 40,000 estimation of Vickers.-— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Suppose this means you still haven't an argument for this [[39]] and you want to change the subject (added the estimation twice? I dont thing so please be carefull on this instant reverting strategy, it reveals a highly extremistic nature).Alexikoua (talk) 12:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You added the same figure twice because as you know the 200,000 doesn't include only people registered in Albania and your 189,000 also doesn't include only people registered in Greece. One source says 60,000, another 200,000 without including only Albania so there's no mistake in the current estimates. Btw since 2001 many of these people denounced their Albanian citizenship and Vickers is the latest estimate.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Very nice, what you claim now is diferrent from the version you supported: '200k doesnt include only Albania and 189k not only Greece', this makes the 'minimum' 200k in both countries (or 189k if the number in Albanian varies from 60 to 200). That's called simple mathematics.Alexikoua (talk) 13:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)It's not different because I didn't change the highest estimate. The highest estimate is c.200k only when used for both countries. Of course in a few months all estimates will be removed since data on ethnicity will be collected.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately wikipedia isn't a Crystal ball. Also per simple mathematics minimum is 189k. Suppose if you don't provide an argument on why you put the minimum in both countries in 60k (instead of 189k), I'm sorry but this has to be corrected.Alexikoua (talk) 14:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Please don't make or deductions about a minimum being 189k, when even Greek scholars say that it's about 60k. Btw if you don't any other source except for the partisan source of Ruches for the 15k in the USA I'll remove it per WP:RS. Of course crystal ball doesn't refer to EU funded and scheduled events. Your up to 189k in Greece can't be on the article at the same time with the up to 200k in Albania. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You seem to ignore that this is the number in both Greece and Albania(as you said: 'when even Greek scholars say that it's about 60k' which is about Albania only). So suppose you are still without a single argument and need to change the subject in any way possible (Albanian census of 2011, Ruches etc...)Alexikoua (talk) 14:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Alexikoua you're insisting on one or deduction and I'm trying to explain to you why you can't add two c.200k estimates. Btw I'll remove Ruches partisan estimates if you don't have another source.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

To sum up:

In Albania	In Greece	Greece+Albania (double counted)	Greece+Albania (not double counted)	Zjarri's claim
60k-200k	189k	189k-200k	249k-389k	60k-200k

It's easy to understand that the last option is out of reality. So, I'm waiting for third part input. Also there is no source that claiming that Northern Epirotes were counted both as living in Greece and Albania (column 3 needs a source, else we have col. 4)Alexikoua (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You can't include two similar estimates for both countries. Btw a third opinion is needed but not by a Greek or an Albanian user. Incidentally this c.400k estimation of yours is what Greek nationalist organizations claim. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually you were the one that insisted in this 'both countries estimates' by instant reverting [[40]]. Also the sum in the total numbers you 'restored' is also wrong (and Greek nationalists claim that 400k Greeks live in Albania, so plz avoid this oring concert since you have no arguments to present so far).Alexikoua (talk) 15:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)389k. is c.400k, so you're actually trying to add the opinions of Greek nationalists. Btw I created a new version and you can't add same estimations twice. Alexikoua take this to RfC and try getting a consensus, since you want another opinion.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:35, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually you are the one that has to go to rfc since you are recently obsessed in adding this extreordinary estimate. Guess you need a good luck since not a single argument is presented so far (now you misuse what Greek nationalist organization claim which is irrelevant with this discussion)Alexikoua (talk) 15:40, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You have to start a RfC, because you want to include the 400k estimate supported by Greek nationalist organizations.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:48, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

If we're going to lump the populations in Greece and Albania together, then the 60,000 figure has to go, because that includes only the ones in Albania. Athenean (talk) 17:34, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Though including the numbers of Greeks-who-have-ancestry-in-the-area-which-is-now-Albania-but-live-in-Greece-or-somewhere-else is clearly not ideal for a page with the title of Greeks in Albania rather than Greeks of Albania (or perhaps I should make a page for Russians-who-have-ancestry-in-the-area-which-is-now-Poland-but-now-live-in-America), I think the combined figure offers a more accurate picture to those unfamiliar with the subject; namely that the statistics from both Greek, Albanian, and third-country organizations and governments are often disputed and that the figure is ambiguous at best. I know this hardly seems like a good compromise, but i think the current version more accurately depicts reality. Cheers. Spyenson (talk) 22:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Kosmas the Thesprotian

He was born in a village with a similar name in modern Anatoli municipality [41]. Btw I was sure that he definitely wasn't born in modern Albania, because I've had the chance to see some of his maps, in which the term Chameria is used.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't say municipality. Also the only village in Epirus region called Georgoutsates is in Dropull (also read the relevant talkpage in which I give additional refs and explanations).Alexikoua (talk) 12:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The only village in modern times but the Pandektis which is the only RS mentions that this one is found in the modern Anatoli municipality. I'm going to ANI if you continue this WP:IDHT activity ignoring even Greek official sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)