Talk:Amin al-Husseini

Richmond

Re this edit

Ernest T. Richmond, advisor to (the) High Commissioner (Samuels) on Muslim Affairs(,) and a staunch-anti-Zionist, persuaded Samuels to choose Al-Husseini as Mufti.(ref Elpeleg 1993, pp. 7–10. Richmond argued to Samuels that in (the) light of the 1920 Arab Riots, the appointment of al-Husseini would be a friendly gesture towards the Arabs. Al-Husseini, in turn, pledged to Samuels that he would use his influence, and that of his family(,) to promotinge tranquility in the land. ref)

Apart from the grammatical and stylistic editors, I see a problem there. It's true that he was a 'staunch anti-Zionist'. One could equally say he was staunchly 'pro-Arab'. But the gravamen of my query is, did, aside from Elpeleg's apparent judgement, Richmond, a subordinate appointed by Samuel precisely because he was known to have pro-Arab views, and Samuels was keen to balance his team, single-handedly persuade Samuels? There are many accounts of this, some bizarre, but those of those I am familiar with do not make out that Samuels was manipulated by or prey to, the opinions of his subordinates. Zvi Elpeleg (ed.translator), Through the eyes of the Mufti: the essays of Haj Amin,Vallentine Mitchell, 2009 9780853039709 pp.181,183 may be worth checking if anyone can. On p.183 he says 'The Mufti owed his rise to Samuels more than anyone else.' (and not to Richmond, though I can't see the rest of the text). Nishidani (talk) 07:28, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Wise of you to notice this edit. Actually most of it does not appear in the source at all. Elpeleg does not identify Richmond as an anti-Zionist (though some other writers have). Elpeleg mentions that Richmond supported al-Hussayni's appointment, but certainly does not suggest that he was the one to persuade Samuels. Actually Elpeleg lists a variety of reasons, of which the support of Richmond and Storrs was only one and not the major one. Nor does Elpeleg suggest that the appointment of al-Husayni was an anti-Zionist move; more like the opposite. The absurd phrase "in light of the 1920 Arab Riots" is nothing like anything in Elpeleg. It's gone. Zero^talk 10:44, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Zero. Richmond's a fascinating chap. I did intend improving his wikibio once. Odd that no one seems to have exploited his extensive archives to write a Phd. Nishidani (talk) 12:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

There is an article on him in this book that I don't have but could get. Also, quite a lot in Huneidi, Broken Trust. Zero^talk 13:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I see I didn't use Huneidi though familiar with his book, but relied on Monk's An Aesthetic Occupation: The Immediacy of Architecture and the Palestine Conflict, for his role here, and Monk also has quite a bit on him. Still, given time and workloads, don't chase that up. If a book comes out specifically on him, we could reconsider. Nishidani (talk) 14:04, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to quibble about an area I have not looked at closely (yet) but Huneidi ... it should be "her book". Padres Hana (talk) 08:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Presidency of the All-Palestine Government

I saw some unsourced paragraph, mentioning al-Husseini as President of the proclaimed All-Palestine government in 1948, hence urging me to check the issue - finding it here: Tucker et.al. and Gallagher. Considering this is true, i think this info is very important for the biography. Some sources are also needed for the term period of his as president.Greyshark09 (talk) 12:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

We can certainly add that, but the actual situation was complex, since it was Egypt alone which convoked the Sept 23 congress at Gaza to form a Palestinian government, as a countermeasure against Jordan. Pre-conference by the Arab League obtained an agreement to have Ahmad Hilma Pasha preside over the government, while giving Husseini a nominal role, devoid of responsibilities. Jordan formally expressed its refusal to recognize any government of the kind in the area of control from the Egyptian lines in Gaza to the north, and opposed a Palestinian government since its declaration would be tantamount to de facto recognition of the partition, On the 30th Husseini was elected unanimously, but had no authority outside the areas controlled by Egypt. Jordan's Abdullah retaliated on October 2 by organizing a Palestinian congress which countermanded the decision taken in Gaza, and the Arab Legion disarmed all militias who expressed interest in placing themselves under the Gaza government.

Nonetheless, Egypt, which manipulated its formation, recognized it on 12 October, followed by Syria and Lebanon on 13 October, Saudi Arabia the 14th, Yemen on the 16th. Iraq's decision to the same was made formally on the 12th but wasnopt made public. Both great Britain and the US backed Jordan, the US saying that the mufti's role in WW2 could be neither forgotten nor pardoned. Thus Henry Laurens, La Question de Palestine, Fayard, Paris 2007, vol.3, pp.167-169.

Feel free to use this also when you go ahead with your proposed edit.Nishidani (talk) 13:11, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Good one, i shall also add this to the All-Palestine Government article.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:02, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Btw, wasn't the congress held on Sept. 22, 1948 (you said 23 Sept.)?Greyshark09 (talk) 17:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Any idea how long he held the title of President?Greyshark09 (talk) 22:32, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I am sure I read this somewhere. I think that Sadat (or maybe even Nasser during the last years) stopped funding the APG. But in any case I think this information is irrelevant because the All Palestine Government never achieved anything and had no other existence but that of being proclaimed (as far as I know). Pluto2012 (talk) 05:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

It was starved of funds from the outset, and had a brief virtual life. But Greyshark's point is that he enjoyed that title, and it is legitimate to note it. I don't think it lead-worthy. It could go in the body of the text certainly, probably. I'll try and see if there's anything more on this, to respond to GS's request for info re how long he wore titular blazon. Nishidani (talk) 09:22, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Pluto's our reigning expert on military operations and may have more background, but Laurens says one of the side effects of Operation Yoav was to force the All Palestine Government to evacuate from Gaza which was 'a terrible blow to its credibility' since it was reduced to little more than a government in exile, and, the Egyptians themselves, distrusting al-Husayni, put him under surveillance in a Cairo villa. The few functionaries that the government had were no longer paid. al-Husayni persisted in pro forma actions, like issuing passports (some 13,000 mainly to denizens of the Gaza strip), which failed to be recognized internationally however. Nasser closed its offices definitively (those of the nominal All Palestine Government) in 1959. Thus Laurens, same vol. p.173. Hope that's of help for this and other relevant articles.Nishidani (talk) 17:11, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Nishidani.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:37, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

 Done

Rank in Waffen SS

Why don’t you write his rank in the SS (Gruppenführer)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.94.81.128 (talk) 17:03, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source for this information it can go in. Britmax (talk) 17:06, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

What about this: [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.94.81.128 (talk) 19:23, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Not a reliable source. No serious source about the Mufti claims he had an SS rank. He wasn't even a member. Zero^talk 23:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Shehtman (1965) says that Fauzi al-Kaukaji held the rank of colonel in Wermacht, but his assossiate al-Husseini is described as "greatly honored" and personally responsible for the conscription and operation of Waffen SS Handsaar division, but nothing is said about any official rank for al-Husseini.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:09, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Nazi Salute???

In the article, there's a photo of him greeting Bosnian Waffen-SS'ers, where the description says he's doing a nazi salute. But his arem isn't even remotely straight. Compare the photo to some people really doing the nazi salute. He's merely waving. Or does the Queen of England do a nazi salute every time she goes out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.3.240 (talk) 12:33, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe he is trying to catch a bird?Greyshark09 (talk) 18:10, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks like a Nazi salute. --Frederico1234 (talk) 18:29, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe he's just looking for Kyle. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:31, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks to me like a Nazi salute, though sloppily executed, but actually in the absence of a good source (which eliminates most of the rubbish sources pictures like this are reprinted in) identifying it ourselves from the picture is a text-book case of Original Research. The word "greets" is too. Zero^talk 00:45, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Definitely a salute. Hitler himself often saluted much more lazily than this. Geofferic ^T•_C✡ 00:23, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Removed material.

None of the removed material relates to the subject. The fact that it has RS does not matter.Animal love match (talk) 08:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)blocked sock of User:Dalai_lama_ding_dong

On the contrary, Al-Husseini's desire to accelerate the Holocaust and to expand the Holocaust to Palestine are extremely relevant. Likewise, the work of his associates is also relevant. Finally, Nazi Germany's plans to utilize Arab support to extend the Holocaust to Palestine are certainly relevant, as they (not surprisingly) coincide with Al-Husseini's wishes.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 23:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC))

WP:OR and it has been removed. Take it to dispute if you want, but neither of these relate to the subject of this article.Animal love match (talk) 08:01, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of the merits of the material, Animal love match, you have appeared to engage in edit-warring with a few editors. Although not technically violating 1RR, it's been carried out over the past few days. I'd suggest reverting while further discussion is held. If no discussion is held, it'd probably be acceptable to include after a while. --Activism1234 00:40, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but its not OR. The sources from which this information is cited are RS and the content is certainly relevant to Al-Husseini. If a Wikipedia editor had added this information without proper sources, or if the information was being used to make a separate conclusion, then you could argue that it is OR. However, in this case, RS sources have contain information relating to Al-Husseini's and his associates in their support for and facilitation of the Holocaust, as well as plans to extend this practice to the Middle East. Since this article is not a BLP, please do not remove properly cited material until this issue is resolved.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 06:29, 30 September 2012 (UTC))

The second of the two paragraphs you want to insert does not even mention al-Husseini. That it is OR is completely obvious. Activism1234: disputed material should remain OUT until consensus is reached, see WP:BURDEN. Zero^talk 07:22, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not arguing for or against that, I'm simply saying that there appears to be an edit-warring over a few days going on here, and it should be avoided, whether an uninvolved person comes in and reverts to a full stop or not. It isn't a reason to edit-war and constantly revert, especially when 2 others have reverted. --Activism1234 15:34, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Ref this It is documented that an associate of al-Husseini's, together with three associates of former Iraqi Prime Minister visited the Sachsenhausen concentration camp as part of a "training course", in July 1942. They were shown the ostensible educational function of the camp, the high quality of objects made by inmates, and happy Russian prisoners who, reformed to fight Bolshevism, were paraded, singing, in sprightly new uniforms. They left the camp very favourably impressed by its programme of educational indocrination. At the time, the Sachsenhausen camp housed large numbers of Jews, but was only transformed into a death camp in the following year. This does not concern A-H, only an unnamed associate. From the second sentence on, the text tells how these unnamed individuals were shown a camp which AT THE TIME was not being used for the murder of Jews. This article gives plenty of evidence that A-H was barely involved in the Holocaust, and none that he planned to extend it anywhere. That conclusion is not widely held, and even if it was this text actually reflects that A-H had an associate who was duped into believing that the germans treated Russian prisoners of war well. The whole para needs to be removed. It is not related to A-H, it is a tenous link to a POV theory about him.Animal love match (talk) 10:36, 30 September 2012 (UTC)blocked sock of User:Dalai_lama_ding_dong

Lead section

I made an overview of the lead section and stumbled upon a vague sentence, which should be rewritten per source:

From as early as 1920, in order to secure the independence of Palestine as an Arab state he actively opposed Zionism, and was implicated as a leader of a violent riot that broke out over the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine.

I think that this sentence is a result of hashing two sentences together, without looking at the source. It should be something like:

From as early as 1920, in order to secure the independence of Palestine as an Arab state, he actively opposed Zionism and was implicated as a leader of a violent Palestinian Arab faction, which had rejected the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine.

If somebody can take a glimpse into the source, currently metnioned, i would appreciate it.Greyshark09 (talk) 12:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

My gut tells me it's close to that, but I don't know French to read the source. Maybe someone else can. --Activism1234 15:36, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Einsatzgruppe Egypt

This article, Einsatzgruppe Egypt, has a reference to Husseini. See also http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/hitlers-holocaust-plan-for-jews-in-palestine-stopped-by-desert-rats-474080.html. There is no reference to that in this article. Is this an oversight or is the sourcing not adequate? Coretheapple (talk) 21:51, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

What Arafat said in August 2002

We are not Afghanistan... We are the mighty people. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin Al-Husseini?... There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, when they considered him an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 War and I was one of his troops.--Sonntagsbraten (talk) 16:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC) (blocked sock of User:AndresHerutJaim)

So what is important is :

1. to find one or several wp:rs sources that report this

2. to argue why this would be relevant for the article (wp:due weight), eg in providing biographers of al-Husseini who considered important to make the link.

Pluto2012 (talk) 16:16, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if it may be more relevant to the Arafat article than Husseini. Not sure. Coretheapple (talk) 16:20, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Use of http://www.militantislammonitor.org as a source is an outrage. Zero^talk 21:48, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

My reading of the policy on reliable sources cited by Pluto2012 argues against including this in any article. Coretheapple (talk) 15:17, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Changes to the lead

As the current leading sentence lack the most important title Al Husseini had, I propose the following change which I see as necessary.

Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini (Arabic: محمد أمين الحسيني‎, Muhammad Amin al-Husayni;[1] born c. 1897;[2][3] died 4 July 1974) was the president of All-Palestine Government, president of the World Islamic Congress, which was founded by him, a Palestinian Arab nationalist and a Muslim leader in Mandatory Palestine.

[2]--Tritomex (talk) 16:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

"Palestinian Arab nationalist and a Muslim leader in Mandatory Palestine" best describes his role and should be sufficient for the opening sentence. We don't want the sentence to be too long. "president of All-Palestine Government" sounds more important than it really was. Same with "president of the World Islamic Congress". --Frederico1234 (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

As per Frederico. No. Nishidani (talk) 19:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Quote

I have moved this here :

Al-Husseini speeches, calling for the extermination of the Jewish people were aired by German Nazi radio. In his memoirs Husseini wrote:

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: The Jews are yours"

— Haj Amin Husseini

My mind is that Jack Fischel is at the same level than Dalin and cannot be considered reliable. I remember reading at several places that the Mufti took high care of what he wrote in he 'memoirs' so I have some doubt about this. Did somebody read this somewhere else ? And what is the due weight of this ? Pluto2012 (talk) 08:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

[3] He seems to focus much on new-antisemitism and the modern Israel, which is not a good point to consider him as an wp:rs on this contentious topic. He doesn't seem to have studied deeply Husseini's history or Holocaust history but rather to have read other secondary sources about this. But this has to be investigated. Pluto2012 (talk) 08:31, 15 November 2012 (UTC)