Talk:Cow vigilante violence in India

Page title

Fowler&fowler complained here about the poor English of the title, which got me thinking about alternatives. Here are some possibilities:

• Cow protection lynching
• Cow protection violence
• Cow protection-related violence
• Cow protection-related violence in India

Pinging Vanamonde93, Vice regent and Ms Sarah Welch. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:12, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

How about Cow protection vigilantism in India? I'm also fine with Cow protection-related violence in India.VR _talk 21:39, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Cow protection vigantlism or Cow protection lynching would be a fair choice. Capitals00 (talk) 23:56, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

• Some comments: I think using "cow" here is slipping into a colloquialism that is bad english particularly when referring to all Indian cows in the abstract. The correct term would be "cattle". I'd agree that the current title is a poor choice; I have a mental picture of people carrying out lynchings while riding cows..."Cattle protection-related violence" would seem to be okay. Vanamonde (talk) 05:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Indeed, the current title is poor English and the topic notable. Vanamonde makes an excellent point... Cattle protection-related violence would be the NPOV and encyclopedic title. It would allow an encyclopedic coverage of violence-related to cattle other than cow, as well as the topic in pre-Partition India, contemporary Bangladesh, Nepal, etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:39, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and implemented that move as the current title was inadequate. I want to point out that "Cow protection vigantlism" is still the dominant term used to describe contemporary violence. "Cattle protection-related violence" increases the scope of the article to include, for example, 1966 anti-cow slaughter agitation.VR _talk 15:51, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The title is inappropriate. "Cattle" is much broader term for the page considering the violence related cow and its significance among Hindus in India. Cattle protection related violence can be covered in a separate article for "Animal protection-related violence". Suppose a protest in China for cattle by PETA turned violent for any reason has no relation to the religious motivated lynchings by the so called cow vigilante groups. In most of these protection-related violence, victims were often targeted because of alleged beef consumption or cow transportation. When there is a topic like Cow protection movement so the most appropriate title should be Cow protection-related violence. Cow vigilante related violence can be another choice as the term "cow vigilante" is often used for these incidents[1]. Jionakeli (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Either "Cow protection-related violence" or "Cow protection-related violence in India" as suggested by Kautilya3 seems perfect to me.Jionakeli (talk) 17:59, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. "Cow protection" is the established term for the ideology. Vanamonde93, I didn't understand your point why "cattle" is the correct term. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:33, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Cow is female, bull is male, though the term cow is sometimes used generically (for both, and for cattle). Would a redirect of Cow protection-related violence to this article suffice? Cattle protection is found in sources (1, 2, 3, etc). If cow protection is of higher cite frequency, it may be more MOS compliant. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:26, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Except source #1, other two sources also mention "cow protection" and as a matter of fact cow protection is of higher cite frequency. Jionakeli (talk) 20:22, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, this article already contains alleged lynching by Animal Rights activists, of men carrying buffaloes. "Cow protection" is a bad title. I struck out my previous support for the alternate because it would be silly to have additional articles on "Buffalo protection-related violence" etc. Perhaps, we should consider "Animal protection-related violence" title, given what HRW and other sources are stating. Please see WP:WWIN. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:27, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Though you struck it out but the guidelines remain same. How can you say "Cow protection" is a bad title? Then how there is an article on "Cow protection movement"? Even the term "gau mata" has been widely cited[2]. Please, note Wikipedia is not censored so if it seems bad to you then still you have to accept the policies. I have already mentioned my reason why cattle or animal protection related violence should have a different title[3]. I am requesting you please abide by WP:NOTTRUTH. Numerous lynching cases and violence took place only because of Cow and not because of cattle. For example Dadri lynching, Alwar lynching, Jharkhand lynching, and more such lynchings are religiously motivated and solely because of cow[4] and not any other animals which falls under the term "cattle". "Cow vigilante" attacks happening in India are unrelated to any other violence related to animal or cattle happening elsewhere.

• India: ‘Cow Protection’ Spurs Vigilante Violence from HRH.org
• Una, Alwar and Delhi cow vigilantism: A list of 'gau rakshak' attacks since 2015 Dadri lynching
• “Cow economics” is killing India’s working class etc.

You are confusing the religiously motivated vigilante attacks by "gau rakshkas"[5] with cattle protection violence which is totally a different topic. It is like confusing religiously motivated Islamist attacks with any other terrorist attacks by different groups with different non-religious ideologies. The concept of "Ahimsa" is no way related to these cow related violence. I can bet the attackers do not even know what "Ahimsa" is because it is opposite of violence. If you want to add cattle related violence then better make it "Animal protection-related violence" and add sections for all countries without giving undue weight to Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism because people who depend on cattle for livelihood will always defend slaughter irrespective of their religious identity. Jionakeli (talk) 11:09, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

I have created Cow protection-related violence in India based on the religiously motivated violence over cow in India. Jionakeli (talk) 11:15, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jionakeli: I am afraid it is a WP:POV fork and it will eventually get deleted.

The behaviour of all the editors here leaves a lot to be desired. Changes to page titles and scope should be not carried out without discussion and consensus. This page, as originally envisioned, should primarily focus on violence occurring in India. No need for discussions of ideologies, religions, or to discuss the whole world. Ms Sarah Welch it is unseemly to claim that people are getting killed in the name of Ahimsa. Please let us not go there. The Cattle slaughter in India page discusses all that. No need to duplicate it here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:51, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jionakeli: I concur with Kautilya3. You have created an unnecessary POV-y WP:CFORK. This article's title needs to be discussed, and we should wait till a consensus emerges. Kautilya3: This talk page is not appropriate for a unseemly discussion of "ahimsa, just war, etc", please see your talk page for a few comments. If we include a background or history section in this article, for context, let us stick to appropriate reliable scholarly sources / HISTRS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:48, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

I have redirected that article to Cattle slaughter in India. Capitals00 (talk) 14:00, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I understood and I agree to this. The religious views were unnecessary brought to the page by Ms Sarah Welch. I'd say directly copied from Cattle slaughter in India. The lynchings over cow (Una, Alwar and Delhi cow vigilantism: A list of 'gau rakshak' attacks since 2015 Dadri lynching from FirstPost, Anatomy of a Lynching from NYTimes, An Angry Mob In India Lynched a Muslim Man Because They Thought He Had Eaten Beef from Time.com etc.) are unrelated to any sort of violence over a cattle. Declare cow national animal, says Rajasthan HC judge, among a few other things, 'Gau Mata' Should be Our National Animal, Says Bengal RSS Unit, Anyone who insults 'Gau mata' is an enemy: VHP leader etc. are enough to distinguish why these cases are closely related over "gau mata" or cows. Not every incident deserves an independent page but they do deserve to be mentioned as a list. This article should serve this purpose. Jionakeli (talk) 14:08, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jionakeli: Check out WP:CSC. Capitals00 (talk) 14:09, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@Kautilya3:, @Ms Sarah Welch:, @Vice regent: please tell why it was moved to a new article[6] without a consensus? Jionakeli (talk) 14:17, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

• I didn't move the article. But my proposal for moving it, at the top, was basically aimed at correcting the English. I didn't envisage changing the scope of the article in any way. I still don't support changing the scope of the article. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

So, how do we reach a consensus now? Jionakeli (talk) 14:30, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

At the time I moved it, the last two users had both supported "Cattle-protection based violence". If there's now consensus on a different title, then that's fine, we can move it there.VR _talk 15:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Please move it to Cow protection-related violence in India per WP:TITLE and in context of the vast sources for related incidents. Jionakeli (talk) 15:58, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Let's do a poll between "Cow protection-related violence", "Cattle protection-related violence", "Cow protection-related violence in India", and "Cattle protection-related violence in India". Users can vote for as many options as they wish. Does that sound good?VR _talk 16:21, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

If this is a way to reach consensus within Wikipedia guidelines then I am fine with it. I will still say there is a clear reason why it should be "Cow protection-related violence in India". Jionakeli (talk) 16:45, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Even before my first edit, the article contained religious views in the lead, background and other sections, sourced from non-HISTRS / non-RS. I updated sections per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE in one case, and updated other sections to reflect HISTRS/RS. Kautilya3: what sections would you propose, and what would be the scope of each of those sections, given our content and WWIN guidelines? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Animal protection-related violence

There is no point now to document only cattle protection related violence. It should cover notable animal protection related violence such violence by Animal Rights groups for protection buffaloes or any other animals[7], [8]. Jionakeli (talk) 11:26, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

The lead should be re-written accordingly. I will appreciate if anyone can relieve me of this burden. --Jionakeli (talk) 11:31, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Animal-protection related violence is inappropriate, as it might include PETA-related stuff, which is very different from the topic of this article. I suggest this article be limited to cows/cattle etc.VR _talk 15:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Please limit to only cow related violence by cow vigilantes as cited in all WP:RS. Making it cattle is WP:OR. All these lynchings were due to cows[9] and not cattle or other animals. There are "gau rakshak" groups[10] not "cattle rakshaks" or "pashu rakhshak" groups. They want to stop cow slaughter or punish people[11] for cow slaughter not cattle slaughter[12], [13]. Jionakeli (talk) 16:10, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with either "Cow-protection..." or "Cattle-protection...". Can we all agree that "Animal-protection..." is not a good choice of name?VR _talk 16:19, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

My bad! None agreed to "Animal-protection...". It was me who moved it and I do not agree with it now since the other article I created was a POV fork. Jionakeli (talk) 16:43, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

No worries.VR _talk 16:57, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Poll

Here's an informal poll on what should the article title be. There are four choices:

• Cow-protection related violence
• Cattle-protection related violence
• Cow-protection related violence in India
• Cattle-protection related violence in India

As can be seen there are two variables to vote on: cow vs cattle and global scope (without "in India" in the title) vs Indian scope (with "in India" in the title). Let's discuss/vote on both concepts below.

"Cow-protection" vs "Cattle-protection"

• "Cow-protection" is clearly the most common name out there. However, I'm open to "cattle-protection" since it allows the inclusion of, say, buffalo-protection violence in the article.VR _talk 17:09, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Global scope vs Indian scope

• I support the titles with the name in India. From my research, scholars say the violence is tied to the political and socio-economic situation of India. Some might argue that this violence is rooted in religion, not politics, and point to the occurrence in Buddhist/Hindu societies outside of India. But from my research, most reliable sources don't making a connection between cattle-protection related violence in India to that happening outside of India, hence I think we should limit the scope to in India.VR _talk 17:09, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Moving material from my user space

I obviously wanted to wait and get feedback before writing on this topic. However, I'm not surprised that someone created an article on this matter. This is a notable issue. In any case, I'm going to move material from my user space into here.VR _talk 21:37, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I was going to suggest the same. However, let us keep the focus on violence. It is more focused topic. You can still cover the vigilantism in the background. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 23:37, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

I have used your materials in Cow protection-related violence in India. Jionakeli (talk) 11:28, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Africa and South America

Cows and cattle are not just beloved by some Hindus / Indian / Nepali / Myanmar people, they are sacred in parts of Africa etc. For example, according to Asiema and Situma, "The cow is sacred in the daily life of the Maasai because it determines one's livelihood. Any danger to Maasai cattle is a danger to the Maasai themselves..." Those working on this article should be careful, avoid generalizing too much. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:20, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Whether cows and cattle are beloved by some people or not please include all types of animal related violence to the article and remove the undue weight of Indian religions from the lead. Jionakeli (talk) 11:20, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Removal of sourced content

This source removes many reliable sources, including BBC News. The following sentence has been well sourced:

Recently there has been an increase in cow vigilantism in India, especially after Narendra Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government came to power in 2014...Many vigilante groups say they feel "empowered" by the victory of the Hindu nationalist BJP in the 2014 election

If you don't agree that the 8 sources I've provided are reliable, I'd be more than happy to take this to WP:RSN.VR _talk 05:43, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

I also see that MSW has put a "unreliable sources|section" template. Please list exactly which sources you think are not reliable.VR _talk 05:45, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Vice regent: Careful. Actually that part was what "I did not delete", and I deleted the soap per WP:WWIN. Here is what remained after the clean up:

Media groups state that cow vigilantism in India have increased after Narendra Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government came to power in 2014.[55][56][7] Many cow vigilante groups say they feel "empowered" by the victory of the Hindu nationalist BJP in the 2014 election.[39][54] The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is another Hindu nationalist group active, with a history of cow protection-related vigilantism.[39]

The issue here is that these are primary news sources, and a due investigation has not occurred yet. So we must wait, follow the curve of scholarship, not lead it, not try to WP:RIGHT-GREAT-WRONGS. If you can find a secondary / tertiary scholarly sources, stating these views, I would have no objection to this. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:05, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

You changed a statement of fact to "media groups state..." That is strange wording that I haven't seen anywhere on wikipedia. Would the following be a better compromise:

Recently there has been an increase in cow vigilantism in India. This surge has been widely attributed to election of Narendra Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government in 2014.

I don't think the recent increase in cow vigilantism is in question. That's a simple fact. What might be more of an analysis is its connection with the 2014 election.VR _talk 15:57, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

The cited sources are all primary/news sources, non-HISTRS. Cattle protection-related violence has a long history. 100s died in related riots in 1880s and 1890s across India over months and years, for example, per WP:RS. See Walsh etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:31, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Reliability of newspapers / fresh media reports

Vice regent: You may or may not have seen this comment I had copy-pasted elsewhere. I re-add it here as a reminder of the useful comments by admin Nyttend, about the need for caution with news sources in wikipedia (cutting-pasting from the wall of text where Nyttend originally posted it).

Be careful with newspapers/etc as sources

Ian.thomson saw my comments elsewhere and asked me to chime in here. Journalists virtually never have scholarly training in history/anthropology/ethnography/etc. — they're generalists as far as this kind of thing goes, not knowing more than what's needed for background purposes, and as such we mustn't consider them reliable sources for such fields. Exceptions can exist, of course, and we can't discount a journalist merely because of his job (e.g. he could be an avocational anthropologist so dedicated to the field that he's a member of a learned society), but even then we should only trust his writings if they've gotten reviewed by other experts; the most scholarly journalist will have his newspaper writeups reviewed by nobody except the newspaper's editors, whom again we can trust to know a lot about news reporting but we can't trust to know much of anything about "olds" reporting. We can take newspaper reports as authoritative if we're writing a middle school report for our teachers, but encyclopedia writing demands better sources: whether they're written by professional academics, journalists with a lot of experience in scholarly work, or anyone else, they need to have gone through a scholarly review process. Of course, all this applies if there's no significant dispute; a faithful adherence to WP:NPOV will demand that we use the best sources from (or about) each position, and we can trust a journalist to report on the rise of a new popular movement that advocates a different perspective on such-and-such an idea, but journalists being primary sources in such situations, we shouldn't use them to interpret something about the different perspective. – Nyttend

Newspapers, tabloids and certain magazines are useful sources in some cases, but not RS for many cases. We must always attribute primary sources when we quote them (you shouldn't interpret primary sources). The Biswas source, for example, is one such questionable source. If you read the Walsh source carefully, you will note the issues with Biswas' comments. Walsh has not been summarized accurately / per NPOV guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:NWSRC is worth checking and I think WP:RSN is better to discuss on this. Jionakeli (talk) 11:45, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Attribution to rise of Hindo Nationalism

MSW removed the following:

The surge is attributed to the recent rise in Hindu nationalism in India.

The two sources given are:

• An article in a scholarly peer-reviewed journal: Politics, Religion & Ideology
• A Reuters article

Does MSW believe either of the two sources are unreliable? If so, we'll take this exact dispute to WP:RSN.VR _talk 15:51, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Class tensions between Hindus and Muslims

MSW has twice removed Judith Walsh's explanation that cow-protection related violence in the 1800s was linked to pre-existing class tensions between Hindus and Muslims in north India. I'm wondering if there's a reason for that? Walsh looks like a reliable source to me.VR _talk 16:13, 25 June 2017 (UTC) This is the specific text in question:

For example, in Punjab, the cow protection riots built on long-standing conflicts between Muslim peasants and Hindu traders; in the United Provinces there had been pre-existing tensions between Muslim landlords and Hindu peasants in rural areas and between Hindu bankers and Muslim artisan in urban areas.

Many other historians go into the relationship between cow-protection violence and class tensions in greater detail.VR _talk 16:14, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Breaking of references

Ms Sarah Welch's edit broke the NationalPost reference (I fixed it). Please be careful. Thank you.VR _talk 05:55, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Where is the history ...

... of the page going all the way back to the first edit in Cow-based lynching? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

The main problem with this article is not the title

I did not say (see reference to me up top) that the title is the only problem, the main problem or even a significant problem. I off-handedly mentioned it as one of the problems. A bigger problem is that the existence of a generalized article, so soon after a string of incidents involving brutality by bands of young Hindu goons is itself POV, a way of hiding the identifiably religious nature of the graphic brutality in abstraction. Are peer-reviewed reliable sources, published by academic publishers, even referring to these latest events as "Cow protection related violence in India?" It is no surprise that many of the people voting delete or merge at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2017_Alwar_mob_lynching are the ones who are frenetically writing this article. It is abstraction, just as the word "lynching" itself in India—so far in space and time from the postbellum American South—is an abstraction, an obfuscating term for "mob murder;" just as for years, pro-Hinduism POV editors were generalizing Caste into something much more global than a brutal principle of social stratification which began in irredeemably Hindu India. (They even once had a section on "Caste in Pakistan" that preceded the section on "Caste in India.") There is little chance that a POV article as this, in a form that does not refer to India in its title, to Hinduism in its title, especially when top heavy with empty abstractions about Hinduism's long history of nonviolence, without referring concurrently to the mainly ritualistic nature of the nonviolence, or the recorded brutality toward animals, including cattle, by Hindus, will make it through to any future but limping to oblivion. I guarantee that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:47, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Hmm...I partly agree with your views. The series of attacks being done over cows in India looks odd in this overgeneralized article. Jionakeli (talk) 16:59, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

I didn't mean the latest version created by you in good faith, but an article whose reason for existence is the absorption of notable incidents of violence by Hindus in India against Muslims, forms of violence that have used the cow as a scapegoat (if you will pardon the metaphor). PS By "I guarantee that," I did not imply a threat, but the likely inevitability of the result. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:53, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, so what are your specific proposals for this article. Spell out how you'd like to change this article and we work on implementing them and getting consensus.VR _talk 18:10, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not even sure at this point there is need for such an article, but let me mull it over. Tomorrow. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:16, 25 June 2017 (UTC)