Talk:Bastyr University

Untitled

17 Aug 2005: I changed "Juanita" to "Inglewood/Finn Hill" as the name of the Kenmore neighbourhood referenced in this article. Juanita is the neighbourhood in Kirkland at the southern foot of Finn Hill. Inglewood/Finn Hill is the name used by the U.S. Census Bureau for the sizable unincorporated area of Finn Hill. Although Bastyr University lies barely within the city limits of Kenmore, it is still locally considered a part of this neighbourhood.

Bias in Quackery Claims

The second introductory paragraph regarding quackery at the university is biased. The sources for this information are highly political sources and do not speak for all of the " scientific and medical communities" as they are claiming to do.

Why is it not "quackery" for major conventional medical schools to have taught/continue to teach surgeons to perform common knee and back surgeries which are ultimately proven to be worthless or have never been proven helpful yet inflict quite a large amount of harm (being major surgeries after all) but it is "quackery" to teach homeopathy, which I personally find to be useless and not evidence-based as well, but at least it causes minimal to no harm. Arthroscopic knee surgery useless trial: N Engl J Med 2002; 347:81-88. Spinal stenosis surgeries lack any studies comparing them to placebo or sham surgery and still aren't clearly helpful: PLoS One. 2015; 10(3): e0122800. Homeopathy worthless: https://consultations.nhmrc.gov.au/public_consultations/homeopathy_health? And why isn't the second paragraph of Harvard University's page dedicated to decrying their racist past (http://www.harvardandslavery.com)? These are all provided as examples to show that the portrayal of Bastyr U in the current Wikipedia page is biased and not receiving the same neutral treatment as other accredited universities.

Thanks to Delta13C by the way for helping me understand the COI policies on Wikipedia which I was ignorant of, and I apologize for editing the page contrary to the policies. Eric Yarnell (talk) 03:39, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Also note that controversy about the school's curriculum is already handled in the Criticism section, so why does it need to be in the introductory paragraphs?Eric Yarnell (talk) 03:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Eric, please read WP:FRINGE, which will address why it is vital that the second paragraph is needed. Are you saying that the scientific communities think that subjects that are taught at Bastyr are not quackery and that there is not a controversy between alt-med folks and science-based folks? Your point about knee surgery misses the point. Please familiarize yourself with Tu quoque. I will indulge you for a bit though: do you know that medical schools teach to perform these surgeries on patients that do not need them or is this your opinion? How do you know this is not a rampant practice in orthopedics rather than being taught in med school? Perhaps you should take this point to the articles Medical school and Orthopedic surgery. Delta13C (talk) 04:29, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello. I am acting as an Agent of Bastyr. We would like to begin a respectful dialogue concerning the language used in certain portions of the page. After speaking with a representative of Wikipedia, who agree that this posting does not fully advance Wikipedia's Five Pillars, we are now reaching out to the editors to discuss how we can make constructive changes to the page, while still presenting a neutral view of the school. We will address each point one by one and hope to engage editors in discussion to gain a consensus and edit the page accordingly. First, we would like to address the introduction. Not only do the propositions cited rely on blogs as credible sources, but the language is inflammatory and does not appear neutral. There is a 'Criticisms' section specifically created for this type of contribution (though credible sources are still needed, and Quackwatch is not a credible source). We propose the following change to the introduction: "Bastyr University is a natural health arts and sciences with campuses in Kenmore, Washington, and San Diego, California. Academic degree and certificate programs include naturopathic medicine, acupuncture and East Asian medicine, nutrition, herbal sciences, ayurvedic sciences, health psychology, midwifery, integrated human biology, exercise science, holistic landscape design, and public health. Each of Bastyr’s programs endeavor to improve health through prevention and self-healing processes, relying on healthy living principles, and on a therapeutic order of interventions that emphasize the basic determinants of health first. Bastyr University is the largest university for the natural health arts and sciences field in the U.S., combining a multidisciplinary curriculum with leading-edge research and clinical training to educate future leaders in these fields. The University's academic and research programs have received international recognition for pioneering work in science-based natural medicine."

Page Updates

I would like to see if the following changes are doable on the Bastyr page. I haven't provided specific changes in all cases, but can if desired.

Opening Paragraphs: In line with providing a balanced discussion, Identify the accreditations that the University does have along with the one it does not. Those accreditations are discussed further on the page; however, if the one that the university does not have is to be discussed at the opening so should the ones that it does have.

I am unclear as to why discussion of any controversy has to be at the beginning rather than simply under the heading of "Criticism." However if it is to be maintained, then again in keeping with the "balanced" nature that Wikipedia is said to maintain, reference should be given to the findings reported by the National Institute of Health's National Center for Complementary and Integrative Medicine - https://nccih.nih.gov/health/integrative-health- that more than 30 percent of American adults are using complementary/alternative/integrative care which includes the various programs that Bastyr teaches - use of natural products, qi gong, physical manipulations, massage, diets, homeopathy, and counseling.

That's a dead link. Please provide a link to the National Institute of Health's website that discusses Bastyr University specifically. Thank you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:27, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Program Updates - match the programs on the Bastyr site - http://www.bastyr.edu/academics.

We do not consider the website of a fringe, pseudoscientific university to be a reliable source. Sorry. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:27, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

• For pseudoscientific topics, such as this institution, it is appropriate to include a de-fringe remark at the beginning of the article. We do not want readers to be confused that Bastyr is a genuine medical school, and they should also be aware of the controversies associated with it right off the bat. Delta13C (talk) 07:27, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Doctoral programs

• Acupuncture
• Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
• Naturopathic Medicine

Where are the independent, reliable sources discussing these doctoral programs? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:16, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Master's programs

• Ayurvedic Sciences
• Counseling Psychology
• Midwifery
• Nutrition
• Nutrition and Clinical Health Psychology
• Public Health

Please provide WP:RS for these programs. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:17, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Undergraduate programs

The Bachelor of Science degree completion programs require an average of two years of undergraduate coursework at another accredited institution before transferring to Bastyr.

• Exercise Science and Wellness
• Health Psychology
• Herbal Sciences
• Integrated Human Biology
• Nutrition
• Nutrition and Culinary Arts
• Nutrition and Exercise Science

We need independent, reliable sources supporting any such claims. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:19, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Certificate program

• Holistic Landscape Design

Please provide an independent reference showing that this certificate program is accredited. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:21, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

For notable people, can the following be added:

• Lise Alschuler, ND, FABNO, a 1994 graduate of Bastyr University with a Doctorate in Naturopathic Medicine, who maintains a naturopathic oncology practice in Arizona, is a founding founding board member and current President of the Oncology Association of Naturopathic Physicians, and is co-author of The Definitive Guide to Cancer and The Definitive Guide to Thriving After Cancer.
• Peter Bongiorno ND, LAc, a 2003 graduate of Bastyr University with a Doctorate in Naturopathic Medicine, who has a private practice in New York, is Vice President of the New York Association of Naturopathic Physicians, and author of a number of books and publications, including How Come They’re Happy and I’m Not?: The Complete Natural Program to Healing Depression for Good

Roadcat8 (talk) 06:42, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

There are no Wikipedia articles about either Lise Alschuler or Peter Bongiorno. It would be necessary to provide references to independent reliable sources that verify that these people graduated from this school, and that these people are notable. The sources you provided are certainly not independent. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:14, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Bastyr + Wiki can be friends

Discussion happens between Bastyr people and students and the Wikipedia community from time to time. Sourcing can be improved but for alternative medicine Bastyr is a leading institution which teaches more evidence-based medicine than almost any other alternative medicine school anywhere. Wikipedia's rules are paramount and everyone has to follow the rules, so the usual rule of "only add information backed by published reliable sources" always applies. Beyond the rules and thinking about social relationships, my own opinion is that Bastyr has the potential to be a leading light in how alternative medicine standards are kept high in Wikipedia. I know that the wiki community gets exhausted from dealing with cranks, paid-alt-med product promoters, and aggressive people who refuse to follow wiki rules, but please give Bastyr people a chance. It is hostile to say things like "fringe, pseudoscientific university". I know how difficult it is dealing with pseudoscience in Wikipedia, but if Wikipedia were to attract a partner in this space, it might be Bastyr. They have had light discussions with WikiProject Medicine members over the years and at least some people there have WP:MEDRS-compliant information to share. Many or most people in the world use some form of alternative medicine. "Fringe" is not the right word for many forms of alt-med, because alt med is everywhere as part of culture. I would like for wiki to have reputable friends in this space, and Bastyr is among the most likely candidates for a sane and beneficial partnership. They have smart staff, students who study very hard, and are grounded with a physical campus location and regulation from many stakeholders who oversee their conservative instruction. If anyone needs support please ask at WikiProject Medicine for guidance. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:57, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

• Can you please cite the reliable sources that support the way you characterized Bastyr? Delta13C (talk) 18:53, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

the campus

Delta13C I am unwilling to try to do that at this time. It is a bit inappropriate for you to say "For pseudoscientific topics, such as this institution", because name-calling and driving the discussion into negativity does not advance the conversation. This is a school which encourages critical thinking and especially among alt med learning institutions, their willingness to incorporate traditional science is admirable. I am sharing an image here to demonstrate that they have many stakeholders funding their nonprofit mission and have been able to navigate criticism with campuses in cities with high educational standards. It is unusual for a school like this to have a campus, much less such a nice one. I would like to keep this talk page friendly and open to discussion. You might have seen that the criticism section in this article is mostly without reliable sources that talk about the school, so if you would like to cite reliable sources to support the way you characterize the school, then you could if you felt that would help. I just want a more positive environment here, and I would love for Wikipedia to eventually attract an alt med scholar to participate in WikiProject Medicine. There has never been one. Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:13, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry, but it should seem completely obvious to anyone who supports actual science that naturopathy is pseudoscience. If Bastyr adopted the scientific method, then it would stop teaching naturopathy, and begin teaching evidence based medicine instead. Stating the consensus of reliable sources is not hostile. It is precisely what we do as encyclopedists. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

I understand the hostility because of all the years of hundreds of alt med disagreements on wiki. I am not saying that anyone should hold Bastyr to a lower standard than other orgs on wiki. I am asking to back off on the aggression of telling others about what is "completely obvious" and what is "pseudoscience". This wiki talk page is not the place to have discussions, so I want to be mindful of the need to wrap up this side conversation even though I am still writing.

The US Federal Government has an alt med division in NIH and they say 30 percent of adults use alt med. The popularity of alt med and the government support it has is evidence that alt med is not marginal practice, even if it includes less-robust science. Wiki needs allies in this space that will share evidence-based scientific medical information. One defense of naturopathy and alt med generally is that it teaches fair scepticism of the medical industry. Conventional medicine embraces pseudoscientific beliefs that direct-to-consumer advertising and pharmaceutical marketing to health care providers do not cause unnecessary health care. They do; and the relationship between corporate sales and conventional medicine in the United States is anti-scientific and results in outcomes which other countries would not tolerate. Bastyr is in the United States where such issues are a problem. When evidence-based medicine recommends lifestyle changes, naturopaths more successfully place patients into treatments like diet and exercise when conventional doctors experience pressure to sell industry-marketed products and services.

I would like to keep this talk page a friendly place to attract anyone from Bastyr to come to wiki. Everyone has to follow wiki rules, and I know there are historical tensions about alt med, but somehow wiki needs friends from this space to serve the needs of the many people who read wiki. Among alt med institutions, Bastyr is one of the more likely to share evidence-based health information. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:52, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

• Blue Rasberry, You should take a look at how the NCCIH's definition of CAM causes it to overestimate the prevalence of alt-med. Regardless, the prevalence of CAM has nothing to do with this article on Bastyr, naturopathic medicine, or that alt-med is quackery. How do you know what you are saying about Bastyr being a bastion of science? I also want to point out that "direct to consumer advertising" or "pharmaceutical marketing" is not an issue of pseudoscience or being anti-science. These are business strategies that have problems and are controversial. Delta13C (talk) 15:53, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

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