Talk:Beit Alfa

Hebrew page

Here is the Hebrew Wikipedia page - http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/בית_אלפא Would really like for someone to add more about the amazing mosaic located there.

you can find more at Beit Alfa Synagogue --Sreifa (talk) 05:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Article name

Someone changed half the article to Beit Alpha. Personally I don't know which is correct, although one would have to prove that Beit Alpha is the common name or widely accepted English-language name. Any sources? —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:54, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Here; Here; here; here; here; here; here; here. Also, the kibbutz shares the name of the synagoge, which has thousands of sources citing "Beit Alpha". KamelTebaast 15:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

File:Beit Alpha 1933.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Faqqu'a

There are a three things wrong with the present wording related to Faqqu'a:

1) Separation barrier is a term used exclusively by Palestinian nationalists.

2) Even if the acceptable and offical term was used, Security fence, it has no place being in this location section. There are more than 500 ancient and famous sites near Beit Alfa, and barely any are mentioned. [Gan HaShlosha National Park boarders the kibbutz to the East, but was not stated.] It is POV pushing for a cause unrelated to this article.

3) Faqqu'a's main article does not refer to Faqqu'a as a "Palestinian village", but it does state that Faqqu'a is under the "administration of the Palestinian Authority since 1995.

Therefore, if Faqqu'a is to be added to the location, suggested wording should be:

In the vicinity of Beit Alfa are the Gan HaShlosha National Park, the kibbutzim Heftziba, Sde Nahum, Nir David, Reshafim, and Ma'ale Gilboa, and to the south, in the West Bank, the village of Faqqua. KamelTebaast 04:24, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh, bullshit, the official name is גדר ההפרדה = separation fence. It is even the name of the article in the Hebrew wiki. Go there and argue about it. Zero^talk 12:45, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Lets go one by one.

1) The official Israeli term is "Security Fenece" (גדר הבטחון). However, most Israeli media sources usually say "Seperation Fence" (גדר ההפרדה) and some international medias or scholars use the term "Seperation Barrier" (to emphasis it is not only a fence, but also not only a wall". "Seperation Barrier" is probably the most neutral term and is also used by the Hebrew Wikipedia.

2) Both the Seperation Barrier and the Green Line are relevent as they are both de-facto borders. If you want to add other historical sites, you are very welcomed to do so.

3) Faqqu'a is a Palestinian village and there is no further discussion needed. It is in the Palestinian Authority, in the Palestinian Territories, administered by a PLO controled government, claimed by a PLO-declared State of Palestine. Faqqu'a is no less Palestinian than Ramallah or Hebron.

There is a problem in your wording, becuase all the Kibbutzim you state are inside the State of Israel, but Faqqu'a is not. There is no problem is writting "In the vicinty of Metula are the Kibbutzim Misgav Am and Kfar Giladi to the south and Lebanese village Kafr Kila to the west".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:24, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Ill just use the name of the wall article, but this apparent aversion to the word Palestinian wont go far. nableezy - 15:27, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Also I think we can try an made a clickable map with the entire Gilboa region that isn't supposed to be that hard to make.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

BAT

Deleting line: According to The Guardian, BAT sold water cannons to the apartheid regime in South Africa in the 1980s in a "secret pact." Source does not state that Beit Alfa sold water cannons; does not state that it was in the 1980s, and nowhere in the article is a connection made between the "secret pact" and Beit Alfa WP:UNDUE. KamelTebaast 06:21, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Removing line: Beit Alfa Trailer Company counters that its intention to sell equipment to a location such as Zimbabwe is actually humane, that "demonstrators would be faced with water cannons, not live ammunition". Poorly sourced (Beit Alfa Trailer Company is not its name). Sentence was in response to previous sentence that has been deleted. KamelTebaast 06:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

On kibbutz, not in kibbutz...

I am addressing edits that were made here. In the English speaking world, it has always been accepted to say "on kibbutz" not "in kibbutz". See examples: Reverting changes accordingly. KamelTebaast 00:16, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

While I would appreciate more input here from other editors, your usage appears to be simply incorrect. For example 'on Beit Alfa' is a context-less word combination that doesn't really work. Other than that I mostly made changes to make the text more readable, it's not about specific usage. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:11, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Ynhockey, not only is it my usage, but it is accepted usage in The Wall Street Journal, The Jerusalem Post, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Haaretz, kibbutz.org, The Jewish Agency for Israel, The Algemeiner, Jewish Telegraphic Agency, The Jewish Journal, Daily Mail, The Times of Israel, Arutz Sheva, Columbia.edu, Forward, J-Weekly, and the Kibbutz Program Center. Can we put this to rest? KamelTebaast 17:09, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

As I said, on a kibbutz is fine, on Beit Alfa is not. None of your links provide this kind of usage. If you look here, you will notice that none of the search results (except those that copy this very page) have your usage. There are however many results for in Beit Alfa. In short, you can use 'on' with 'kibbutz', but you can't use 'on' with the name of the kibbutz. In many contexts (like 'to meet on ...') it can mean 'to meet on the subject of ...'. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:27, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually, you never wrote "on a kibbutz is fine". The larger point is "on kibbutz", which is sourced. That is short for "on kibbutz Beit Alpha", which means you can take the kibbutz out and you're left with "on Beit Alpha". KamelTebaast 23:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Ynhockey is perfectly correct that "on Beit Alfa" is bad. You can't use this sort of logical argument to determine correctness in a human language. Why argue for a fringe construction when there is a common construction available? Zero^talk 03:00, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

A traditional stand-up comic line is that when they tell you to get on the plane they really want you to get in the plane. I have a recollection that this was discussed somewhere years ago on Wikipedia, sorry, in Wikipedia, but I can't find it. Like with most English peculiarities, it's hard to give definite rules. One can be born in New York, but never on New York, but on the other hand it is fine to be born on a farm in Tennessee but never in a farm in Tennessee. It isn't just a matter of the size of the place, either, since you can't be born on Tennessee. If you think of a kibbutz as a village, you will be born in it, but if you think of a kibbutz as a farm you will be born on it. I think that both usages are correct. Zero^talk 23:53, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

On the other hand, "Actor, writer, producer, comedian Seth Rogen's parents met on Beit Alfa." is borderline. More standard would be "met at Beit Alfa". But what is Seth Rogan, and even his photo, doing here at all? His connection fails WP:WEIGHT. Zero^talk 00:19, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

If you're born in New York, were you born on or in the street? I agree that Rogen's photo does not need to be included (I'll revert), but he is alive because his parents met on Beit Alpha. KamelTebaast 23:18, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

"On the street" is a standard construction. You can be born in a car on the street in New York on Earth in the Milky Way. Zero^talk 03:00, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Kibbutz Beit Alpha was not named after an Arab village

There are many problems with the lede as written:

1. Beit Alpha took it's name directly from the the synagogue located on the adjacent kibbutz, not from an "Arab village, Khirbet Bait Ilfa". (I'm presently researching sources on that.)
2. If the synagogue took it's name from Khirbet Bait Ilfa or Hilfa (as mentioned in the Talmud), that is for the synagogue's article, not Beit Alpha's article, and most definately not in the lede.
3. As presently written, it reads: "... took their name from Arab village, Khirbet Bait Ilfa, that once stood on the site." According to the source (page 299, The Oxford Encyclopedia of Archaeology in the Near East), it reads in full: "The city is named after the nearby ruins of Khirbet Beit Ilfa; it shows no occupation before the Roman period." "Nearby" is not "once stood on the site", nor did it mention "Arab". [These are further examples of Wikiwashing to change history.] Therefore, I am deleting the line. When I find the source that the kibbutz took its name from the synagogue I'll add that. KamelTebaast 16:45, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Removed

The kibbutz as well as the archaeological site nearby containing the remains of an ancient synagogue, took their name from Arab village, Khirbet Bait Ilfa, that once stood on the site.

That is removing a good source from the lead, instead of placing it down in the history section, with the information suitably modified according to what you verified, i.e.the logical procedure.

You are removing from the lead a mention of its possible prior Arab history, which you deny, while affirming merely that you are still researching the question. Meaning you don't know, but have decided the issue while still seeking evidence to confirm your suspicion. Well one doesn't remove stuff on a suspicion.

1. (1)'Kibbutz Beit Alpha was not named after an Arab village.'

The source says:'Beth Alpha ..was settled by Ptolemaic Greeks and was part of Scythopolis, one of the cities of the Roman Decapolis. The city is named after the nearby ruins of Khirbet Beit Ilfa.'

Note that the source you removed also said that the site was originally Greek, and was settled in the much earlier Ptolemaic era. So what you did was ignore the early Greek history, erase the (possible) Arab connection, and by removing the RS on it, consolidating an image that this was a place with only a Jewish history. POV pushing, by erasing sources that show cultural complexity.

• The source you removed indicates that Beth Alpha was named after the nearby ruins called, in Arabic/bearing the Arabic name, Khirbet Beit Ilfa.

Had you retained the source but rewritten it along those lines, one would have no complaint. However

It took me a few seconds to find the following remark.

(The synagogue) was part of a prosperous village called Bet Alfa, which survived during the Islamic period as Beit Ilfa . . Jewish settlers founded the Bet Alfa kibbutz in 1921 nearby the abandoned Arab village of Beit Ilfa.(Sie (the synagogue of that name) gehörte zu einem wohlhabenden Dorf mit dem Namen Bet Alfa, der in islamischer Zeit als Beit Ilfa fortlebte. . .In der Nähe des verlassenen arabischen Dorfes Beit Ilfa gründeten jüdische Siedler 1921 den Kibbutz Bet Alfa.' Erhard Gorys, ‎Andrea Gorys , Heiliges Land: ein 10,000 Jahre altes Kulturland zwischen Mittelmeer, Rotem Meer und Jordan, DuMont Reiseverlag, 2006 p.216.

Please note that Andrea Gorys is a qualified German archaeologist.Nishidani (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

The source given is clearly written about the synagogue and does not mention the kibbutz. [Again, that should be dealt with in the article about the synagogue.] Regarding your new source, Gorys, it does not state that the kibbutz took its name from the village. [Again, note, there was Hilfa in the area mentioned in the Talmud.] The biggest problem with the sentence deleted was that it read that the kibbutz was named after an Arab village "that once stood on the site." Even your source disputes that.

Do you agree that according to reputable sources, kibbutz Beit Alpha is not sitting on the location that was once the Arab village of Beit Ilfa?

I'll add to location that the kibbutz is located near an abandoned Arab village Khirbet Beit Ilfa KamelTebaast 18:36, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

What you are doing is equivocating. 2 sources say 'nearby Bet Alpha' stood Khirbit Beit Ilfa from which the kibbutz and the named synagogue derive their names, a site with a Ptoelamic and an Arab history, apparently. All you needed to do was change 'that one stood on the site' to 'nearby the site'. The synagogue belonged to Bet Alpha which became Beit Ilfa, according to the German source, meaning - and I don't see why you can't understand this - means the Synagogue is at Beit Ilfa, and Bet Alfa is nearby. Instead you made a total mess, that will require corrective surgery to patch it up.Nishidani (talk) 19:13, 10 August 2016 (UTC)