Talk:Caucasian race

Neutrality Dispute

This article is flawed in two areas, and biased admins continue to take away my scientifically accurate edits.

You are not going to convince me that a solid block of the anthropology community does not believe that there are 3-4 main races. Genetic studies suggest this too. http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showpost.php5?p=522568&postcount=1

In addition it can be proven that the statement about Indians is false. They were labeled Caucasian, but a distinction was made between Caucasian and white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Austin2359 (talk • contribs) 08:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

"The Supreme Court conceded that anthropologists had classified Indians as Caucasians, and thus the same race as whites, as defined in Ozawa. However、it concluded that "the average man knows perfectly well that there are unmistakable and profound differences," and denied citizenship."

http://www.ling.fju.edu.tw/typology/Caucasian.htm http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5076/

So you were wrong, I was right. Now you can be quiet and stop removing my correct edits, to push your unscientific point of view.

"Caucasian" is a racial term but "white" is more restrictive and less scientific term. Quit removing my edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Austin2359 (talk • contribs)

The above was added by the same editor as the IP editor earlier blocked for 3RR violation. This was an attempt at block evasion, so there has been another block. As for the links, the first is to a forum, and we don't use forums as sources. The second is, bizarrely, to a copy of a version of the WIkipedia article, so useless as a source. The third link can be used as a source in the article based on the information here [1]. dougweller (talk) 08:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

As for the concept of race being now rejrectd by most anthropologists: "A similar survey in 1999 found that the concept of race was rejected by 69% of physical anthropologists and 80% of cultural anthropologists" (Lieberman, 2001 [2]). This does not even begin to address the opinions of biologists. So yes, racial typology is now rather widely rejected.--Ramdrake (talk) 20:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

The following item from today's news could be added to enhance the discussion. Here the term caucasian is used in a strictly medical/research sense:

The Canadian Cystic Fibrosis Foundation (CCFF) supports research into cystic fibrosis, which only affects people of the caucasian racial group. However, the term caucasian includes people from South Asia, North Africa, the Persian Gulf and Israel, according to Cathleen Morrison, CEO of the CCFF. "[Although] these are Caucasian populations," Morrison, CEO of the CCFF told CTV [ctv.ca]. "[they] do not have white skin". Bushcutter (talk) 06:55, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The whole point of NPOV, and of WIkipedia, is, that one position on an issue is not determined to be "correct" by editors and presented solely, but that all views are presented. Clearly the term Caucasian is still in widespread use. And clearly a lot of people don't like that. Both those points are to be presented in a style which does not allow us to guess which opinion the editor holds.

BindingArbitration (talk) 14:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)BA

Almost exclusively in the US?

I'm not sure this is true. The term is familiar as part of their language by speakers of British English. It is also used in professional communication by the British Police as in 'A six foot tall, brown haired caucasian male'.

The British police make a point of avoiding controversial and confusing words such as 'Caucasian' - they have a classification of race by 'Immigration Code' - IC1, IC2, IC3 etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.80.255 (talk) 01:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

(( Begin of text moved from Talk:Caucasian ))

Moved comment below from 129.100.152.211 from article to here:

Very interesting. As far as I know three groups, the Manchurian, the Yeniseyan and the Ainu, carried three blood groups Haplotype C, Haplotype A, Haplotype D to the Americas. That's how the American Indians got them. Another group, the Northern Chinese, went over later on with Haplotype E which is found commonly among the Pueblo and Navajo Indians. At the mean time, two central Asian groups carried Haplotypes D and C to Europe which is found commonly among modern day Caucasian populations. While Haplotype B which is totally absent among the Amerindians, spread among Caucasian groups and Mongoloids later on from Africa via the Middle East. And the Mongoloids, like their cousins the Caucasians developed male pattern baldness and resistence to epidemic deseases, which are almost absent among their cousins the American Indians. This is the basis on which our society is legally divided into Mongoloid(Asian), Caucasian-Mediterranean, Indo-Dravedian, African-Mulato and Amerind-Meztiso social groups. And these groups continue to celebrate Multiculturalism by cultivating their own images, feeling proud on TV networks and popular entertainment, helping people of different ethnicities to understand their own respective cultures, supporing members of their own respective groups in highschool cafeterias, in order to make this society more diverse.

-Frecklefoot

I am Scottish, Czech, and Albanian. Why do I note my ethnicity? Because I am 100%caucasin. My father is from Albania. The Albanians are;a.) Nomads who live in Eastern Europe. These nomads originally came from the Caucus Mountains. b.) They are the poorest country due to there resistance of frivilous self glorification. c.) Their language is recorded as being the oldest language in Europe. d.)Before thier pilgrimage to East Europe from the Caucus Mountains they fled from persecution from the Islamic Semites and Orientals. The point is caucasins both eastern European and English etc...are defined by common language,persuction for thier Christian beliefs and there long standing strength. I believe it good people love one another for their inner selves, which often comes around to who one is on the outside and through thier historical blood. Note:Oddly enough an Albanian commited a terrorist attack in July 1914 which still is not accpeted by the world. One other comment I would like to add, the Galatians in The Holy Bible are better known as the Gauls. These people live were? They live in Europe. The Celts? The Celts were founders of Galatia!The Celts domination runs from Bohemia to the U.k. To close,simply put,Christianity is richly rooted in white soil....pretty amazing huh!

Sorry to tell you Stolfi? but due to political reasons albanians are slavs. And you Sir are a degenerate human accoridng to the words of Hans K Gunther, half breed mongrel. You do know that christians carried out a haulacaust against native Nordic/Prussian Pagan people. So much for xtianity rooted in slav[ic] soil.

Wake up and spell the cofee.

Gracias Von Bosmark the 52nd User —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prussianbismark (talk • contribs) 03:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

(( End of text moved from Talk:Caucasian ))

I have moved the Latin name to the History section, assuming that it was Blumenthal who coined it. Could anyone confirm that? Thanks...Jorge Stolfi 17:45, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

Usage in Australia

the word caucasian originated from Caucasia, A small island off the coast of Oklahoma.

In Australia the word Caucasian is used to refer to those people that have Anglo-Saxon background, this happens in the media as well as in official documents. There is an important number of Australians who have Greek, Italian and other European background which are not regarded as Caucasians. The Australian government refers to them as the ethnic communities along with other racial minorities.--tequendamia 11:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

What non sense. You are an idiot . Causcasian refers to any white people. This makes it liable , though, to subjectivity, as some people that might be 'scientifically' referred to as Caucasion (eg Middle-eastern) would not be in 'lay' usage. Eg in the media when referring to crime- they usually describe the perpetrator as "a man of middle -eastern / medeiterranean origin".

-- The same happens to be true in Canada. The term Caucasian is one used in reference to white Anglo-Saxon people of European background, excluding Southern Europeans. I was surprised to read much of the information found in this article, especially given how it conflicts with most western social norms. Surely the content of this article is debatable, depending on whom you ask. However, in most of the modern west the term Caucasian refers specifically to white Anglo-Saxons, and possibly Slavs. I do understand that in Russia the term Caucasian is one used to refer to the people of the Caucus region.

Further, equating the term Caucasians with a scientific designation is a misnomer. It is a social construction and should not be confused with scientific jargon.

All this talk reinforces everything that is wrong with the use of this word - no-one really shares a common understanding of its meaning. Really it should only be used for people from the Caucasus. Everything else is a misnomer - this is the accepted academic view and the article should support that, perhaps with mention to the word's other misuses. This encyclopaedia needs to educate responsibly - not perpetuate ignorance, no matter how widespread the ignorance is 87.194.80.255 (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The use of "caucasian" in Australia is variable. When used in the context of media presentations, its use roughly (and unintentionally) equates to Huxley's xanthocroi peoples. Obviously this is left to the subjective interpretation of the individual. But often it includes anyone of Anglo-Cetic, Scandinavian origins, as well as any 'Germanic' looking French, Italians and Slavs. Most definitely Southern Italians, Greeks, Turks, Middle Eastern peoples incl Egyptians, as well as the darker/ shorter stocked French and Spanish people are referred to as "of Mediterranean appearance". However, recently the media has actually avoided using any descriptions associated with presumed race, as it has been seen by some to ignite racial hatred toward certain communities, about which stereotypes have arisen as being "trouble-makers". Hxseek (talk) 03:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not up to Wikipedia editors to decide whether some usage is "good" or "logical". If indeed Caucasian is equivalent to "Anglo" or "Northern European" in Australia and Canada, than that is simply -- neutrally -- reported as a local use of the term BindingArbitration (talk) 14:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)BA

New Cavalli Sforza research

Cavalli Sforza now claims that originally the first caucasoids were made 2 parts of 3 from a population originating from China and 1 part of 3 of a population originating from Africa, this is based on genetics and anthropology and paleoanthropology.

Anybody have anymore information on this?

This is a misreading. He just says that Caucasoids (or maybe Europeans specifically) are intermediate on some indexes. --JWB (talk) 00:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

He does a comparison of Caucasians vs. Africans, East Asians, and an artificial interpolation 1/3 of the way between Africans and East Asians. Caucasians are found to be closer to the interpolation than to either Africans or East Asians as a whole, but still a substantial distance. Also, the comparison is of a bunch of genetic information, but not necessarily representative of any visible or significant racial differences, which are likely on a smaller set of genes.

The pattern of difference is not necessarily due to origins and may mostly represent gradual diffusion roughly in proportion to geographical distance. --JWB (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Balance tag

In glancing at the article, I was astounded at the weight/attention given the ridiculous notion that Senagalese have "Caucasoid" features because of some sort of admixture and that some physical characteristics of some East Africans have nothing to do with them being Black Africans. If this absurd, fringe info is going to be presented, then the prevailing view certainly must be as well -- and with at least as much emphasis. Just another reason the "disputed" tag should remain. deeceevoice (talk) 00:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad that you at least put something on the talk page regarding why you added the tag, so thank you for that. But don't you think it would be better to just simply add a fact tag to that particular section or just even remove it all together if it's a fringe theory? There was already a tag at the top, so I don't know how adding a similar one helps the article. Too many times I see people adding a tag to an entire article when either a few sentences could simply be removed, a "fact" tag could be placed requesting a citation for it, or a balanced statement could be added. Kman543210 (talk) 00:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Huxley

Claiming that Huxley's "races" included Caucasians is OR. Huxley defined Melanochroi and Xanthochroi "races", which overlapped significantly. Alun (talk) 15:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Sources, types and authors

We should probably have a section on the different sub-types proposed by different authors, and probably have even more authors mentioned.

Here are some old online text about physical anthropology where these types are described:

http://dienekes.110mb.com/texts/biasutticaucasoid/

http://carnby.altervista.org/

For some reason this URL is blaclkisted, so I've split it up so it can be shown here:

http://www.amorsite. shorturl.com/ FunkMonk (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Racist Predictions?

"They are also known as to have complete dominance over the black (negroid) race. In America the blacks have always been and will always be subordinate to white people." in Origins of the term

Is it just me or is this not that appropriate for an unbiased article?

--212.251.109.36 (talk) 08:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It was vandalism that was just put there. It has since been removed. Kman543210 (talk) 09:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually the same sentence was placed in the article in three different sections, I have further reverted the vandalism. Cheers. Alun (talk) 09:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ugh

I'm going in with an axe here. I see above that Deeceevoice thinks this article is shit. For once, I absolutely agree. Utterly incoherent nonsense. Talk:Caucasian race/Dumping ground is where cut material is going. Moreschi (talk) 15:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

to be fair, some of the material could be considered as raw material for an encyclopedia article. I guess we need more articles with "dumping ground" areas where people with much time for googling around but no editing skills or command of the context can contribute. --dab (𒁳) 08:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that one function of this page? Doug Weller (talk) 08:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

not really, this is for actual discussions. The problem is that useful material posted here gets swampt and eventually archived. Come to think of it, a "dumping ground" page for raw references and quotes yet to be worked into the article (or, that is, cut out of the article), could be a useful addition as a standard asset of all "C+" (i.e. better than "Start") articles. --dab (𒁳) 09:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I've created Wikipedia:Dumping-ground page to present this idea. --dab (𒁳) 09:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Why has this article been trimmed down to nothing, and why are sourced images replaced by a random image of a girl? The stuff which has been removed is sourced, that physical anthropology is pretty damn shaky is a fact, and that many different, and sometimes useless, theories have emerged shouldn't be hidden. FunkMonk (talk) 18:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Mythology

While it is true that the instances of Greek myth quoted are set in the Caucasus, the article suggests that there is some connection with the "fascination for European" exerted by the Caucasus and Blumenbach's hypothesis. Unless we have some reference making this suggestion, this is pure WP:SYN. --dab (𒁳) 08:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Caucasoid Physical Traits

User:Moreschi removed the citations I provided regarding the physical characteristics of Caucsoids as having thin lips, straight facial profile, receeding zygomas, large brow ridges, high-bridged, narrow noses which greatly project, large amounts of body hair, tendency toward balding, a narrow face and large jaws. All of these traits are obivously true and uncontroversial. I suspect User:Moreschi blindly removed these cited facts when they resurrected the ancient, low-quality version of the article, making their removal an accident on their part.----^DarkTea© 20:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• And you were blocked for re-adding the cited bits. Ridiculous. FunkMonk (talk) 20:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent rewrite of the article

I just reverted 3 edits because they introduced drastic changes in the article. Please discuss. Thanks. Dr.K. (talk) 00:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

CURRENT MAINSTREAM ACADEMIC USE OF "CAUCASOID" IN THE NEW YORK TIMES

Please don't apply political ideologies or agendas to Wikipedia.

Wikipedia needs to describe everything in the world whether you agree with it or not.

Some scholars today completely reject the notion that humanity can be described in distinct groups of physical types — but many others continue to find this entirely appropriate.

Here is a current article in the New York Times — hardly a bastion of racist extremism — on the Tocharian mummies showing that "Caucasoid" is in fact in use today:

"The Dead Tell a Tale China Doesn’t Care to Listen To"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/world/asia/19mummy.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=dead%20tell%20a%20tale&st=cse&oref=slogin

"It's very clear that these are of Europoid or Caucasoid origins," Han, now retired, said in an interview in his apartment in Beijing.

Wikipedia readers need to know that there are differing views today in academia on the subject of race, and the term "Caucasoid".

Preventing them from doing can only be regarded as vandalism.

I don't have an account that can edit a semi-protected page at the moment, but will be back to present an accurate NPOV discussion of the subject soon if the current political essay has not been corrected.

Thank you. 76.204.26.55 (talk) 03:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)NPOV editor

Ironically, the NY Times article is all about political attempts to suppress accurate scientific reporting on ethnic identity.

76.204.26.55 (talk) 03:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)NPOV editor

Of course, that is not the reporter using the word but a retired Chinese anthropologist, so if you want to argue that some old Chinese anthropologists use the word, I'll have to agree. dougweller (talk) 05:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where that dougweller comment comes from — "Caucasian" is more in use today in biomedicine than ever as so many studies are finding different ethnic groups respond differently to medications, etc. I'm going to rework the intro with some quotes to this effect. The point above that we can't let our opinions bias the information presented is really important.

BindingArbitration (talk) 14:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC)BA