Talk:Conspiracy theory

Article info re-deleted by user Jytdog

• here is the content. fixed sectioning so it would fall under this subsection. sourcing is not useable or unreliable:

Controversy

The general discussion of conspiracy theory is itself a matter of some public contention. "Conspiracy theorists on the internet are often dismissed as a "fringe" group, but evidence suggests that a broad cross section of Americans today—traversing ethnic, gender, education, occupation, and other divides—gives credence to certain conspiracy theories."

Distinguishing from institutional analysis

Noam Chomsky contrasts conspiracy theory as more or less the opposite of institutional analysis, which focuses mostly on the public, long-term behavior of publicly known institutions, as recorded in, for example, scholarly documents or mainstream media reports, rather than secretive coalitions of individuals.

distinguishing from structuralism

The term can also be used to dismiss what are in fact substantial and well-evidenced accusations. The legitimacy of each such usage will therefore be a matter of some controversy. Michael Parenti, in his 1996 essay which examines the role of progressive media in the use of the term, "The JFK Assassination II: Conspiracy Phobia On The Left", states,

"It is an either-or world for those on the Left who harbor an aversion for any kind of conspiracy investigation: either you are a structuralist in your approach to politics or a 'conspiracist' who reduces historical developments to the machinations of secret cabals, thereby causing us to lose sight of the larger systemic forces."

Complications occur for terms such as UFO, which literally means "unidentified flying object" but connotes alien spacecraft, a concept also associated with some conspiracy theories, and thus possessing a certain social stigma. Parenti gives an example of the use of the term which underscores the conflict in its use. He states,

"In most of its operations, the CIA is by definition a conspiracy, using covert actions and secret plans, many of which are of the most unsavory kind. What are covert operations if not conspiracies? At the same time, the CIA is an institution, a structural part of the national security state. In sum, the agency is an institutionalized conspiracy."

refs

References

for discussion of the above

What is "Harry G. West pp 4"? Why are you citing blogs like "questionsquestions.net"? zenasecureforums.net?? Jytdog (talk) 00:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The problem is the wholesale deletion of the material in the first place after it had been part of the article's stable version for probably 6 or 8 years. I agree if the sources are deficient and ref tags are added and then allowed to season and nobody ever comes up with better sources, then it WOULD BE appropriate to delete the material. Paavo273 (talk) 02:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I assume the editor to whom you are referring in the previous section is LuckyLouie. There is nothing neutral or academic about Parenti's approach to this subject. The generalization of those with left-leaning viewpoints and the assertion that the CIA is inherently conspiratorial (i.e. causes or covers up, through secret planning and deliberate action, illegal or harmful events or situations) fails WP:REDFLAG. - Location (talk) 04:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The Church Committee investigation of 1974 established beyond question that the CIA was extensively involved in covert activities that were (1) harmful to American citizens (2) beyond the CIA's legal authorization (3) in violation of the US law (4) in violation of the civil rights of many Americans, and (5) in violation of the sovereignty of other nations. The reports produced by that committee are "exceptional sources" and are beyond question. Reputable secondary sources and summaries of those reports would be very helpful and should be easy to find. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 05:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Parenti is not arguing your point that the CIA committed acts that were illegal or harmful. By asserting that the CIA is "an institutionalized conspiracy", he is arguing that the essence of the CIA is to covertly commit illegal and harmful acts. The definition of "conspiracy" includes "covert" and "illegal", but Parenti suggests that they are synonymous. Although "most" CIA operations may be covert, it is not verifiable that "most" CIA operations are illegal. - Location (talk) 06:15, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

That would indeed be a very hard point to prove. Thanks! Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 06:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

@Location:, Incidentally, "covert" is not an essential element of conspiracy. It certainly describes most covert activities, but secrecy is not essential. The American Revolution was broadly described as a "conspiracy" by the British, even though very little of it was kept in secret. Conspiracy is an agreement among a plurality of actors to commit an evil or illegal act. Neither is "covert" an element of the criminal definition, and a moment's thought will indicate why. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 16:36, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The definition of conspiracy theory includes "secret" which in this context is synonymous with "covert". - Location (talk) 15:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

@Location:. It doesn't, really. Neither civil conspiracy nor criminal conspiracy requires secrecy, though the plans are often made in secret. A civil conspiracy or collusion is an agreement between two or more parties to deprive a third party of legal rights or deceive a third party to obtain an illegal objective.[1] In criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime at some time in the future. Criminal law in some countries or for some conspiracies may require that at least one overt act must also have been undertaken in furtherance of that agreement, to constitute an offense.[2] Secrecy is a common, though not essential, element. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 17:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

The lede currently states:

A conspiracy theory is an explanatory hypothesis that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an event or situation which is typically taken to be illegal or harmful.

Is this what you are proposing?

A conspiracy theory is an explanatory hypothesis that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an event or situation which is typically taken to be illegal or harmful.

- Location (talk) 17:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, let's see. "typically taken to be" is a circumlocutory distraction. Also, the "accuses" sort of implies the conspirators are identified, when often they are not. Consider this:

A conspiracy theory is an hypothesis that two or more persons, a group, or an organization caused or covered up, through deliberate cooperation, a destructive, harmful, or illegal act.

A bit simpler. What do you think? Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 18:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Eliminating "secret" or "covert" is fine if that is what reliable sources state, however, the article's second reference, for example, states: "a conspiracy belief is the belief that an organization made up of individuals or groups was or is acting covertly to achieve a malevolent end." As another, Knight et al, state: "A straightforward definition of a conspiracy is when a small group of powerful people combine together in secret to plan and carry out an illegal or improper, particularly one that alters the course of events." (p. 15). Emphasis mine. - Location (talk)

The epistemology is the question. Here is the Black's Law Dictionary definition -- still secrecy is not required. Even when we speak of a conspiracy theory, obviously the conspiracy is not a secret to everyone: The conspirators must know of the plot. In that respect, is just like any crime. If X is a house prowler, check forger, criminal hacker, poisoner, mercenary assassin, pilferer, shoplifter, child molester, serial rapist, cannibal -- X must keep his activities unknown to the police in order to continue, else he will be arrested and stopped. If we got careless, we might define secrecy as part of all of those crimes, but that would be misplaced. Now in the term conspiracy theory, we are usually dealing with an hypothesis that is difficult or impossible to prove by the person who holds the hypothesis -- hence it is "secret" from the point of view of the person who holds the theory.

However, since we have RS who have done exactly that displacement, their definitions should be included. But the definitions should stand side by side, not replacing each other. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 21:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Or, as this source indicates on the bottom of page 33, there is a difference between the meaning of conspiracy in a legal context and the meaning of conspiracy in the context of conspiracy theories. Perhaps this difference should be mentioned in the article. Incidentally, their definition of conspiracy theory on page 32 again refers to secrecy. - Location (talk) 22:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I believe that definition is not correct. The "secrecy" part of a conspiracy theory is inherent in the "theory" word, not the conspiracy word. I don't know whether it is true because I can't know whether it is true, but I have a theory that there is a conspiracy ... If I could know it was true, it wouldn't be just a theory, it would be a fact, but it would still be a conspiracy. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 07:33, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Grammar'sLittleHelper, this article is about the subject of "conspiracy theory". Are you proposing to change the lede? - Location (talk) 08:54, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Glenn D. Walters cites Webster's Third New International Dictionary and states that the "three principal components" to the definition of "conspiracy" are "group, secrecy, and malevolence". I don't think this means we should pick and choose one academic over another, but rather expand discussion of the definition and cite various academics. - Location (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

"the assertion that the CIA is inherently conspiratorial (i.e. causes or covers up, through secret planning and deliberate action, illegal or harmful events or situations)"

Eh why is this an exceptional claim? It's an intelligence agency. The CIA was involved in hundreds of operations where secrecy was obvious. And as for the conspirational, the Rockefeller Commission was set up for that. The harmful part seems obvious but reminds me of Operation Northwoods. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 06:05, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Conspiracy is a plan to commit either a harmful OR illegal act, but harm and illegality should be synonymous in a democracy. The Church Committee examined a number of the CIA's secret programs and confirmed that many operations were illegal. The CIA got way out of hand as most secret programs do, and is still way out of hand, as confirmed by the recent court decision that the Patriot Act did not authorize warrantless surveillance on the general population of the United States.[3] Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 07:33, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Bataaf van Oranje, this discussion revolves around a quote from Michael Parenti:

In most of its operations, the CIA is by definition a conspiracy, using covert actions and secret plans, many of which are of the most unsavory kind. What are covert operations if not conspiracies? At the same time, the CIA is an institution, a structural part of the national security state. In sum, the agency is an institutionalized conspiracy.

As Grammar'sLittleHelper has pointed out, the definition of "conspiracy" in this context includes "harmful" or "illegal". When Parenti states that covert operations - such as those conducted by the CIA - are conspiracies, he has falsely constructed the idea that covert operations must be harmful or illegal. I understand that Parenti may want to highlight the misgivings of the CIA, but there is very little relevance to the subject of "conspiracy theory". As far as I can tell, the passage was in a section entitled "Controversy" that by title and content was a heavy mix of WP:SYNTH. - Location (talk) 08:54, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Since its inception, the CIA has conducted a number of both harmful and illegal activities. The Church Committee investigated, denounced, and terminated many such in 1974. The Rockefeller Committee fingered more in about 1976. The recent Project Echelon has been found illegal in court. The programs included experimenting with illegal drugs on unknowing US citizens to illegal domestic spying and circumventing the FISA court -- and many things in between. I do not have the Michael Parenti text to confirm, but I speculate we will find much of that in greater detail with sources and references in that text -- or in others of better quality. The problem here is merely not the best, or insufficient, selection from RS. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 17:39, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I can see the point he is trying to make though. When an effort is made to spread falsehoods about a major political event, it would arguably be a conspiracy. Compare the 1953 Iranian coup. This is basically the purpose of the agency, and unless I misunderstand he makes a valid point. But I don't agree with the somewhat bizarre part: "It is an either-or world for those on the Left who harbor an aversion for any kind of conspiracy investigation: either you are a structuralist in your approach to politics or a 'conspiracist' who reduces historical developments to the machinations of secret cabals, thereby causing us to lose sight of the larger systemic forces." Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 16:22, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Are you stating the purpose of the CIA is to commit harmful or illegal acts? - Location (talk) 19:30, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

This is not a forum. As tempting as it may be to really dig into this debate, let us refrain. We deal only with the documented fact that in its short history, the CIA has engaged in many harmful and illegal acts and programs (conspiracies) that have been denounced by Congressional committees, courts of law, and international bodies(?). Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 10:31, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Of course this is not a forum, but you brought up what appears to be Parenti's premise: the CIA has engaged in harmful and illegal acts and that is proof that their purpose is commit harmful or illegal acts. That's an opinion that is not relevant to this article. - Location (talk) 15:41, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The CIA does it, and that is proves the CIA's purpose is to do it? I don't think that is logical. Many lawyers lie in court, but we are far from proving that lying in court is the purpose of lawyering. Our interest in Wikipedia is only the facts, not in arguments that might be drawn from the facts. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 19:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Sound like we are in agreement. - Location (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Much of this talk page reads like a bunch of old women (or men) or first year law students bickering over minutiae. Or even NOTHING. It's irrelevant what editor broke WP's fundamental editing rules. The problem is that it HAPPENED AND KEEPS HAPPENING. The example I gave was the improper removal of uncontroversial sourceable material attributable to Chomsky, without the courtesy and without following the WP guideline of placing a cite tag.

Sofixit definitely applies here, too. How many of the arguers ad infinitum have actually contributed new material to this article? That would be a good start to building an encyclopaedia, as opposed to deleting sourced or easily-sourceable material you don't like. Someone, in this thread I think, said we're interested in FACTS. IMHO, what would be even more germane is CONTRIBUTING SOURCED FACTS to the article. After doing actual research. There seems 2B if not consensus at least some sort of agreement that the CIA engages in A LOT of conspiracies and has for most of its existence. There's LOTS of scholarly sources on point.

I agree with whoever said IT'S NOT A FORUM. If you have NEW sourced info to add, please do. Otherwise leave the article alone.

As with a lot of controversial article topics on WP, there always seem to be editors who love to hijack an article according to their own POV, just because they can. Without actually contributing meaningful content. Paavo273 (talk) 03:43, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

You state that others are "bickering over minutiae" yet here you are. Regarding Chomsky, Jytdog already addressed your inquiry and you appeared to agree that the "sources are deficient". - Location (talk) 04:06, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Deficient sources or even MISSING sources are not a license to delete. That's what God made cite tags for. (Please see link above.) Only if the material is unsourceABLE should it be deleted. AFAICT, it probably was not ignorance of WP rules that led to the deletion, however. Paavo273 (talk) 04:11, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of ignorance of WP rules, there are various policy-based reasons to remove material, including violations of WP:V which states that material must come from reliable sources. There are a plethora of academic sources discussing "conspiracy theory", so the only reason to be this discouraged with the removal of these sources is if they don't fit your particular POV. - Location (talk) 04:25, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Locating the rule is a good start! What would be even more helpful to an editor's contributions is READING AND UNDERSTANDING the rule (AGFing as WP says we must). A good starting place after the intro would be the first main section of the rule you cite, especially the third paragraph: Responsibility for providing citations. And this is not directed mainly at you personally (other than to the extent that you brought it up/cited it). There's a lot of disregard of the verifiability rule. And a lot of cherry-picking from the rule. And a lot of ignorance of the rules overall. Across the project. Paavo273 (talk) 04:37, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Category rename

I created Category:Anti-conspiracy theorists. It is about “Persons who have criticized or tried to debunk conspiracy theories.” It should be re-titled “Critics of conspiracy theories”. Btw, I placed it in Category:Criticisms, which I changed to Category:Critics. (When I created Category:Anti-conspiracy theorists, I didn’t know that Category:Critics existed.)--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 23:19, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Conspiracy theory. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100604093513/http://www.america.gov/conspiracy_theories.html to http://www.america.gov/conspiracy_theories.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 18:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Influence of critical theory

This section is almost entirely made up. Latour's paper is a critique of critical theory and he simply uses conspiracy theories to illustrate how structurally similar conspiracy theory arguments are to critical theory arguments. But, there is no claim that critical theory has influenced conspiracy theories. The claims made in this section are not to be found in the paper cited. --I am One of Many (talk) 01:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Further reading

I am wondering if there are any thoughts on reorganizing the "Further reading" section that seems a bit extensive. Should books be grouped separately from journal articles? - Location (talk) 06:22, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits

I don't see what the stuff I have reverted [4] adds but I would like to hear reasons why it belongs. Per WP:BRD I have deleted it, twice. Dbrodbeck (talk) 01:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Hostile, WP:DOREVERT, WP:DONTREVERT. anyhow, it expands on dismissive usage of the phrase, as quoted by the book, which by the way was already used as a resource for another statement in the article. the section is about that, isn't it? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 01:24, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The statement in question appears to be this: "Michael Parenti argues that Noam Chomsky uses 'conspiracy theory' as a dismissive label to silence political opponents and to deliberately set up for disparagement the perfectly legitimate investigations by linking them to motifs which have come to symbolize the irrationality of conspiracy theories." This article is not about Chomsky or Parenti's view of Chomsky. It doesn't belong here. - Location (talk) 01:26, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Other authors, like Rebecca Moore, are quoted.. so where's the difference? Why is Kennedy example justified, Nixon example justified, and Chomsky's usage for Kennedy investigations not justified? After all, Chomsky is well known expert on linguistics, language, and public discourse and Manufacturing Consent. In fact, Chomwky's opinion has a whole section in this article! Statement could be made shorter though... 178.148.10.191 (talk) 01:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Location has summed up my thoughts nicely. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:02, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Upon close examination I find that Rebecca Moore is selectively quoted (or one might say cherry picked) to make it sound as if she condemns 'conspiracy theory' as an unfair and dismissive label, when she actually goes on to describe at length the paranoid irrational qualities of the vast bulk of conspiracy theories in general. The article does require a brief and reliably-sourced mention of the concept that "conspiracy theory" has occasionally been used unfairly. But this concept should not be given undue weight with selective or out-of-context quotes, especially ones from Michael Parenti. - LuckyLouie (talk) 02:21, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

If you include sources only from 'institutional view' supporters, you will never get a source for dismissive usage, will you? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

See WP:UNDUE and WP:Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopedia - LuckyLouie (talk) 03:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It is not WP:UNDUE, on contrary.. Both are notable for their work which is very much relevant to this article. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Awesome, than he will also reply to my reply instead of you... as I see you don't have one. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 02:04, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with his/her reasoning is all. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

So to argue Location's argument: This article is not about Chomsky or Parenti's view of Chomsky. It appears this article does have Chomsky's view on 'conspiracy theory', and views of other authors of people using 'conspiracy theory', and yet, somehow it should not have view of an author i provided on Chomsky's usage of 'conspiracy theory'!? Does this appear to be arbitrary and cherry picking? 178.148.10.191 (talk) 02:09, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The view that "conspiracy theory" is used dismissively as a pejorative is not unique to Parenti's or his view of Chomsky. Inserting that statement in the middle of a discussion about its use as a pejorative is not necessary. The reader is left to wonder why the article is switches gears to talk about Parenti's views of Chomsky, then switches back to discuss the pejorative use of the term. In other words, the insertion of that material is what is arbitrary. - Location (talk) 02:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This statement is not only about its pejorative usage, but about its deliberate use to dismiss political opponents, which is another and stronger usage. It expands on Rebeca's view, and also is relevant as later section talks about Chomsky's view. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

And how is that unique to Chomsky (e.g. [5])? A more thorough discussion of that point can be found in various academic sources (e.g. [6]). One other thing. You wrote:

"Michael Parenti argues that Noam Chomsky uses 'conspiracy theory' as a dismissive label to silence political opponents and to deliberately set up for disparagement the perfectly legitimate investigations by linking them to motifs which have come to symbolize the irrationality of conspiracy theories."

And this is what Byford wrote:

"Parenti argued that Chomsky uses 'conspiracy theory' as a dismissive label to silence political opponents, and that he deliberately sets up for disparagement the perfectly legitimate investigations into the plot to assassinate Kennedy by linking them to motifs which have come to symbolize the irrationality of conspiracy theories."

This is both a copyright violation and a misrepresentation of the original quote. - Location (talk) 03:38, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I wrote above statement should be even shorter.. not a copyright violation as it is not under quotes, and also not a misrepresentation, as JFK was mentioned in previous sentence. 178.148.10.191 (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)