Talk:Haitian Creole

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Isaac Crumm I have been looking at wikipedia for quite some time, but I just joined recently. I think this particular page is pretty awesome. I added a bunch of those phrases and grammar yesterday. Thanks to whoever made it real neat and presentable; I am still trying to get a hang of the markup commands. I haven't been much in the Haitian-Creole circles for quite some time, so I may be kind of old on the spelling, and my computer currently can't use the accent marks.

Does anyone know of Bryant Freeman- has he published anything new recently (last 10 years)? Thanks.

Thanks to everyone; it looks like this page is really coming along.

The accents were added.Fågelina 22:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Dialect

The article says "There are two dialects: Fablas and Plateau." Could we get some more info on these? There is nothing written in the stubs linked. I have never heard these terms used by Haitians (doesn't mean they don't use them, just I don't hear them), but I frequently hear "kapwaz" used to describe the Cap Haitian mode of speech. Any comments?

Jargon

Gen ge moun gou ki gi vle ge fe ge yon go ba ga gay gay nan gan ja ga gon gon? Maybe it will be interesting.

Random Question

Should Haiti be considered a Latin American country? This is a topic on the Latin American talk page. I don't want to bring the debate here, but was just curious what the users here thought.

Classifications are always arbitrary unless one specifies a purpose. So the real question is: what is the purpose of classifying countries into "Latin American" and "not Latin American"? Once you answer this question, the answer to your question will probably be obvious. Jorge Stolfi 19:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

PS. Remember to sign your entries with "~~~~" so that readers can tell one message from another. Jorge Stolfi 20:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

That seems like a very reasonable answer. Many different factions are arguing about it on the Latin America page. Isaac Crumm 08:03, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

question

* zwazo - oiseau [(le)s oiseaux] - bird

Shouldn't that be le(s) oiseaux? 66.32.97.68 19:16, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nope. The point of the parentheses was that the first z in zwazo comes from the s in les. Since the first part of les has been left out of the Creole word, they put it in parentheses. (In any case, if there were no final s and the French word were singular, it would not be *le oiseaux but l'oiseau – however, that's irrelevant to Creole, which takes zwazo from the French plural...) QuartierLatin1968 09:23, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, on second glance, scratch what I said, I don't know why they decided to put the part that is incorporated into the Creole in parentheses, for example in (la) lune. Seems weird. Can we maybe take out the parentheses in (la)? QuartierLatin1968 09:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I need help with some information for the infobox

Are there any organizations that regulate this language? what are the ISO codes for this language? Revolución 04:39, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In addition to the two codes listed already, HT states that "ht" is the ISO 639 alpha-2 code for this language. That would explain why the Haitian Creole Wikipedia is at ht.wikipedia.org.

sample phrase pronunciations

I have some doubt that Creole uses the a sound as much as the IPA pronunciations make it seem, but I know nothing of Creole, and french does use it.

--Lee S. Svoboda 21:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Creole ʁ?

I edited the IPA so that it represents the French uvular /ʁ/ more accuately, but is the r for Haitian Creole an alveolar trill or is it also uvular?

• I don't believe it exists. I have never heard Haitian Creole spoken with an uvular trill and I've toured the country extensively. In fact, I believe it is one of those things that, to the average Haitian, sounds "Frenchy" and therefore snobbish/condescending. Braidedheadman 18:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Who's your daddy?

Why is this included in the list of phrases? :: Salvo (talk) 08:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

No idea. Possibly it is meant as a question directed at a child and nothing else? Kinda makes you chuckle though, doenit...  ;] //Big Adamsky 15:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

More varied vocabulary sample needed

The words in the sample vocabulary seem to have been picked for the purpose of showing the derivation from French. But presumably the language has words borrowed from other sources, or made up (onomatopoeias etc.) It would be nice to include examples of those words too. Jorge Stolfi 10:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Good point, Some were added. It appears though that maybe not all of them are not of French origin. More in this dept would be appreciated.

Capitalization of Aysiyen

I believe that in French orthography the derivatives of proper nouns are not capitalized, is that correct? What is the custom in Haitian Creole? In particular, should we write Aysiyen or aysiyen? Jorge Stolfi 10:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)</nowiki>

—Haitian Creole follows the French language - it is not capitalized "ayisyen"Fågelina 21:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Fek

hello, i was wondering about the origin of this word. It is also used in Mauritian Creole (e.g. Mo fek fer sa... I just did that) but we do not know how or where it comes from. MC does not have much West-African influence except for an archaic word no longer used{Wati-wale(Wolof)..par ci par la(French)..by here by there}. Anybody with any info? Domsta333 09:01, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The French Wikipedia says it comes from the French phrase "ne faire que...". --201.218.24.21 01:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

Someone just (as in today) changed the spelling of many of the words in the article. I think it would be good if they put some comments here in the discussion page about it. How is the uniformity of the spelling these days? The changes made- are they some kind of standard, or are they simply the way that particular person thinks they ought to be written? Isaac Crumm 07:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

While I'm generally a fan of including diacritical marks where appropriate in names of places, I have never seen the diaeresis on the word Haitian when used in English. It seems like the change may have been well-intentioned but incorrect. :: Salvo (talk) 00:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It does look that way. A lot of the links on the politics of Haiti page are now dead, because they're all pointing to articles named "Haïtian senate election" or whatever. Fact is, in French and Creole, aï and ayi represent two syllables, whereas in English, the ai is just a diphthong (one syllable), which means there's no more reason for a diaeresis than there would be in "Jamaica". (And for the record, I agree with Salvo in usually preferring to see the diacritics in non-English names!) QuartierLatin1968 22:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Since Kharker has not backed up her/his spelling changes with any sort of explanation, either here or on her/his talk page, I'm going to move the article back to the version without the diaeresis.  :: Salvo (talk) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Pronouns

Someone recently added "vou" to the list of pronouns, should it be there? If someone is really speaking Creole, is "vou" used? Isaac Crumm 01:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

• I've heard it used sometimes in the Creole of the French Antilles (Guadeloupe and Martinique), but I don't remember ever hearing it in Haitian Creole. (IANAE)
• It's a "Frenchy" plural form of "you". You might hear it in/around the capital, particularly in Petionville, Delmas, and other areas where people consider themselves "more educated", especially among the Mulato and upper-class. Hence, its use is considered somewhat snobbish and condescending by most Haitians. "Nou" is more appropriate in casual conversation. Braidedheadman 17:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Verbs section

The verbs section—particularly the examples of conjugation—seems ill-formatted. I’m personally not quite sure how it should be reformatted, so I tagged it with a clean-up notice. --Joshua 23:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

"Sounds and spellings" and "Lexicon" sections need work

"Sounds and spellings" needs more information, e.g. on ò and ch. "Lexicon" needs to have several of the IPA pronunciations filled in. 24.159.255.29 23:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"Goodfatherhood"? What's the source of this?

Is it ozetazini or etazini?

24.159.255.29 23:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Ozetazini is correct, (phonetically) from the French, "Aux États-Unis (d'Amérique)". "Etazini" is also correct and is similar in use to "The United States" vs. "The States" in English. Braidedheadman 17:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

—"ozetazini" = in/to the United States, comes from French "aux États Unis" and "etazini" = United States, comes from French "États Unis." Nothing upset me more to see "Ozetazini" writen with a capitalized "O" as if it was the official country name.Fågelina 20:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• But that is in fact just what it is; the official name, in Creole, for the country. Capitalizing the "O" is perfectly good grammar as a result. When you say "Ozetazini" to a Haitian, they do not think, "To the United States." They interpret it for what it is in Creole, a noun labeling a country. For example, "M'ap ale Ozetazini," translated correctly means, "I am going to go to the United States." It does not mean "I am going to go to the to the United States." This is an example of where knowlege of French vocabulary and gramatical structure can interfere with correctly interpreting/understanding Haitian Creole. Braidedheadman 17:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with this. Creole speakers use "ozetazini" to mean exactly that: to the United States. The sentence "M ale ozetazini" means "I am going to the United States," and "Etazini se yon gran peyi" means "The United States is a great country." I have never heard a Creole speaker use "Ozetazini" to mean the name of the country, and I lived in Haiti for years. Cdeutsch 12:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Copula

I put some comments on the copula talk page regarding Haitian Creole. I think they are worth looking at and discussing (there) to enhance that article, and the stature of Haitian Creole in that article Isaac Crumm 20:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes

Well, this goes for everyone, but today, specifically for 71.124.156.23, please discuss before making wholesale changes, and changes ought to be kept uniform with the way the language is described in the article (definite article = la, not la)Isaac Crumm 01:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Corrections

I've noticed a couple of items that I believe need to be examined for correctness. I'll list them below with what corrections I think should be made:

• In the "To know" verb category, the treatment of "konnen" and "konn" as two separate words, in form and definition, is incorrect. "Konn" is the contracted form of "konnen" and as such they share identical meaning. "Konnen (konn)" comes from the French verb "Connaitre", which means "to know of (someone/something)", "to have experience in (some activity)", "to be familiar with (some concept)", etc. For example, "Mwen Konnen Jean-Paul / I know Jean-Paul," and "Mwen konn pale kreyòl / I know how to speak Creole." The second verb form of "to know" that the original author was probably referring to is "se", in Creole, from the French verb "savoir", which means "to know (something)", as in, "Mwen se nimewo telefon mwen pa kè / I know my telephone number by heart," and, "Li se kreyòl / She knows Creole." Note that the verb "se / to know" can be confused with the verb "se / to be" in sentances such as these, especially if instead of saying "Creole" in the last example, one says, "Li se Haitian / She knows Haitian." :P Braidedheadman 19:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• I'll continue to add to this topic as time permits. If you choose to do so, please respond with bulleted indentations (:*) below each point that I raise in order to keep this tidy. Cheers.

I would have to disagree with what you are trying to say about "to know," I have never heard "se" to mean "savoir" except if one is speaking in a Frency way. We need to hear more opinions on the konnen vs. konn vs. se issue. Please, anybody? Isaac Crumm 22:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

That makes two of us: I've never heard a Creole speaker use "se" to mean "to know." --Cdeutsch 12:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

"Sounds and Spellings"

Wouldn't it be more linguistically correct and more synergetic with other language articles to call this section "Phonology and Orthography"?

Haitian French versus Haitian Creole

I'm under the impression that there is a distinction between Haitian French and Haitian Creole, but I'm not an expert on this. Gringo300 00:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yon

Someone put "yon" in front of a bunch of the nouns on the word list. I think it is very unnecessary. Anyone have any thoughts? Isaac Crumm 20:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Names

Someone changed some of the names from French spelling to a phonetic Kreyol like spelling. Personally, I have never seen a Haitian spell their name in this manner. I have always seen the French preserved. What is the current practice/opinion on this? Remember, Wikipedia is supposed to be descriptive not prescriptive.Isaac Crumm 20:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Mwa

Does mwa mean "me" (French moi)? If so, this would be a good word to add to the table, as it's an excellent example of the Africanized spelling found in Kreyol. Badagnani 01:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

"Mwa" is not a Haitian Creole word. "Mwen" (sometimes just "m")in Haitian Creole means the first person singular in all cases. (I/Je Me/Moi My/Mine/Mon/Ma and Me- this is not really a one for one correlation as all these cases are not necessarily used in Haitian Creole, but "mwen"fulfills all these same roles. Isaac Crumm 01:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I think "Mwa" is used in HC. It usually means Month, as in twa mwa, meaning three month. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AhadOnLine (talk • contribs) 13:51, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

I was reading an Edo dictionary (Edo is a language mainly spoken in today's Nigeria) and they use 'Mwen' to say 'Me'--you can check it out on the internet, I'm sure--as for 'Nou' for You plural; I'm sure it is related to Jamaicans 'Unu', which can be traced back to the Igbo, 'Unu' or 'Una', also mainly spoken in Nigeria.

Sanka Tulasie___________

Use of Expressions

The entry for Haitian Creole is very good. In my opinion it gives a clear and useful introduction to the language. However, being Haitian, I would like to point out that speaking Creole also means using and understanding a significant number of expressions or idioms. It is mentioned in the entry that there is a Creole dictionary. In fact, i've seen a few different, but equally useful, ones and they all contain a section dedicated to expressions. From my own experiences, i have noticed that without these expressions, of which the dictionaries only provide a subset, certain ideas cannot be fully communicated. This is aggravated by the fact that many of them are quite difficult to translate. I hope you consider this and continue the good work so that your article on Haitian Creole can become even more thorough. --65.94.172.242 06:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)Fabrice Durocher

Interintelligibility with french

Is it interintelligible with french? if so,it should be noted in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.78.237.13 (talk) 16:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, what do you all think? Is it? Isaac Crumm 23:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

We can't say that haitian creole is interintelligible with french. Even if written haitian creole can sometime be understood by a french speaking person, it's really different for oral haitian creole. I say that because i'm from Guadeloupe (French West Indies), and we have a lot of haitian coming (illegaly) from haiti. As they come from a very poor part of the population, they do not speak and do not understand french at all. But, and it can be mentioned, they understand Guadeloupean/Martiniquese creole and can have dialogue with Guadeloupean/Martiniquese creole speaking persons. This is just a personal experience. 193.251.75.121 20:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)