Talk:Hemshin people

Edit war

Omer asked me to help you find a solution to the editorial conflict over this page. To my shame I am really ignorant in the history of Hemshins. It is good since I do not have my own biad there, but it also bad as you would have to explain to me the background facts that might be pretty obvious to elsebody. You can ask me to get lost and find another mediator if you feel like this.

Am I right that the main point of the conflict is whether in the lead we can state in the lead as a fact that Hameshins is a diverse group of people (like Dagestani, I presume) rather than a single ethnic group (as e.g. Chechens)?

If so does Omer's sources support the assertion? Are there any reliable sources that are of different opinion? Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Alex, thank you very much for your prompt response.

Let me start off by saying that the major problem we have here on this page is that we are unable to have discussion. A quick glance at the talk page, at least under the title “editing the lead section” will give you hints about what I exactly mean. I do, however, believe that once we start discussing we can actually reach an agreement. I see your presence here as a nice opportunity.

The "Hemshinli" are rather unique in the sense that there does not seem to be any other group of people who have similar characteristics. Therefore I do not think that Dagestani or Chechens are appropriate examples. Herebelow I try to give an “informal” introduction to this rather interesting group of peoples, for you to get a feeling about what this article is all about. All what I say below is sourced by the references of the article.

Hemshin is a small region in northeast of Turkey, mountanious, remote and still not very easily accessible. In the daily life and language “ Hemshin-li” means simply "from Hemshin" and this form of designation is used in tens of thousands of occasions in Turkey in relation with towns, villages, regions and even city districts (say istanbul-lu etc) (like newyork-er). The people who still have ongoing ties to Hemshin form the main group of Hemshinli. They are Turkish speaking, muslim and have no selfunderstanding of being a specific ethnicity.

Our case becomes complicated because in addition to the "Hemshin-li" in this sense, there are two other sets of people who call themselves also Hemshin-li (or variants of this word in different languages) although they have no ongoing link to Hemshin and even no memory of any connection thereto in their family history…They obviously are the descendants of people who at some point(s) in history have migrated from Hemshin. The Hopa- Hemshinli are the ones located in several villages in Hopa, about 50 km east of Hemshin (still in Turkey ). They are muslims as well but speak in addition to Turkish a language which is recently found to be a archaic form of Armenian influenced by Turkish and "Laz". The third group lives beyond Turkish boundaries in the Caucasus and are of Christian faith..they speak also a language similar to the language of Hopa Hemshinli.

Those groups are becoming aware of each others existence only recently and through their intellectuals…

It is difficult when the cultural make up and histories of these peoples and the common link (being from hemshin) are tried to be analyzed. As expressed by the researchers in the field, the problem is that the history of Hemshin region and the people who throughout the history had been its residents, are full of unknowns….There are a number of theories related to many elements of the analysis. Starting from the name Hemshin…over whether Hemşin-li means really only the standart "new york-er" thing or whether it is designation of a ethnicity…if so what ethnicity, who migrated to Hemshin throughout the history and who migrated from it and why and how, etc. Actually a late 2007 book published with the name "The Hemshin" (basically a compilation of the inputs of various authors on various aspects of the Hemshinli) introduces itself as "groundbreaking" and the "first scholarly work" over the "enigmatic" Hemshinli.

In the wikipedia article over Hemshinli my contributions so far try to reflect the present status of the research related to the facts of the history and present situation (my contributions are limited to the sections "history" and "groups" in addition to "lead"). You can see there some more details regarding the history of the Hemshinli. Please note that the entry is still under development, and there are parts that still needs to be fixed as well as additional information that may need to be inserted. Naturally the lead section will need to be developed in accordance with the development of the article.Omer182 (talk) 11:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Alex, thanks for your interest

The main point of the conflict is not that "diverse group of people" point. It is that Omer182 has taken "ownership" of this article in order to POV war his opinion – an opinion that is not supported by any sources. He has, through a process of reverting or removing anything that he has not personally written and by actively distorting sources and altering text written by other editors, created an article that is not only extremely misleading but is almost unreadable.

Omer182's edits appear to have the end goal of muddying the waters mostly in order to create the impression that the Hemshini are not Armenian in origin, and that claims of their Armenian and Christian origin are disputed and unproven.

He initially went about this by trying to POV fork the article. He argued on this page for removing two of the three recognized Hemshinli groups from the article and moving them to separate entries: the Christian Armenian-speaking "northern Hemshinli" and the Muslim Armenian-speaking eastern or "Hopa Hemshinli". This was presumably because the Armenian origin of those two groups would be obvious to everyone. That initial attempt failed, and he has subsequently been engaged in rewriting the article to suit his POV and editing out any other editors' contributions. Any editor adding new material will find, often within hours, that Omer182 has reverted the article to a previous version, that version invariably being Omer182's version.

Omer182 has persistently removed fully referenced material from the article. He does not discuss beforehand his edits (most of which are reverts) to remove referenced material, and he does not justify their removal when asked. On a number of occasions he has said that he will, quote, "consider the additional information suggested" after removing the material from the actual article - an example of him behaving as if he owned the article.

The methodology of Omer182's edits is to discredit or marginalise mainstream academic opinions about the Hemshin peoples. He does this by using four primary methods.

Method 1 - He will use weasel-words in his text

Omer182's edits makes extensive use of known weasel words such as "is claimed", "there are views", "it is generally accepted", "recent studies claim", "some deduce", etc. He will characterize an accepted fact as one that is merely "claimed". In some cases he is using them to raise a false question about a statement's truth – for example, after stating that some Turkish historians say the Hemshinli are ethnically Turkish he writes "many other historians deduce that those were Armenians", when actually all sources, except for a few extremist Turkish ones that can be dismissed as propaganda, agree they were Armenians. His content is full of the passive voice, making the whole article appear deliberately vague and imprecise. If you check back to this edit, [[1]], I pointed out a lot of the weasel words – that resulted in Omer having to rewrite a lot of his material, and resort to method 4 for even more in his edits.

Method 2 - He will exclude all material that strongly disagrees with his POV.

For example, in one of his earlier edits [[2]], about the term "Hamshen" he claimed in the articles lead section that "in historical documents this term is absent". In the talk page I pointed out his error, explaining that Hamshen, or variants of it, actually is the name used in the oldest historical documents. I then cited an account by Purchas from 1614 as an example, and later added a quote from it into the article. Omer182 then removed that cited quote without explanation. After I reinserted it again, he again removed it without explanation, then, several weeks later, he reinserted a garbled and almost unreadable (see his method 4) passage that included a messed-up version of the same quote.

Here are the two versions, the first is easily the most encyclopaedic; concise, to the point, and giving a reason for its presence in the article.

Original version

Omer182's rewritten version

The earliest known certain reference to Hamshen and its inhabitants is the Haynsen mentioned in "La Fleur des histoires de la terre d'Orient" by Hetu'm of Corycos, written around 1307, translated into English in 1520, and later retold in the travellers' tales of Samuel Purchas published in 1614. Purchas writes of "a marvellous strange wonder … a province or county called Hamsem … whose whole extent is all covered over with such thick and palpable darkness that none can see anything, neither do they go into that Land, because they know not the way out again".

A description of "Haynsen" in the Kingdom of Georgia, its inhabitants and history is contained in "La Fleur des histoires de la terre d'Orient" by Hetu'm of Corycos, written around 1307, translated into English in 1520, and later reproduced in the travellers' tales of Samuel Purchas published in 1614. Purrchas uses the term "Hamsem" to designate the region and concludes that this is the place of the original Cimmerian gloom of Homer's Odyssey. The translation of He'tums related passage to modern English uses the term Hamshen. He'tum describes the region to be "miraculous and strange place" unbelievable unless seen by own eyes, dark and without roads. Signs of human settlement are that "...People in those parts say that one frequently hears the sounds of men bellowing, of cocks crowing, of horses neighing in the forest," Those people are described by He'tum, leaning upon Georgian and Armenian Histories, to be the descendants of the men of the "wicked" Iranian Emperor Shaworeos who had chased and harassed christian people. The referenced translation suggests this Emperor could be Shapuhr II, [A.D. 309-79].

Method 3 - He will deliberately falsify or cherry-pick source material in order to manipulate the source to suit his POV.

For example, in the current edit he writes "Hemşince and Armenian are generally mutually not intelligeble" citing Simonian’s "The Hemshin", p257. That wording would give a reader the impression that Armenian and Hemşince are not related. However, in the actual source, the sentence that precedes the one he quotes states Hemşince "is generally treated as a dialect of western Armenian", and the actual sentence that contains the words "generally not mutually intelligeble" (btw, note Omer's moving of the word "not") ends by saying that Hemşince is "one of the most divergent and interesting varieties of Armenian". As another example, for his lead section statement "A recent proposal is to use the word Hemshin itself to designate these peoples" in this edit [[3]] he again provided as a reference the book "The Hemshin" . Actually the book makes no such claim and the reference was taken from content I had added and that Omer182 had quickly deleted.

Method 4 - He uses sentence stuffing: making accepted facts appear vague or uncertain by disguising them within overly convoluted and unreadable sentences.

This last method is now his most widely used one. Here are examples:

Original version

Omer182's rewritten version

The Hemshin or Hemshinli (Turkish: Hemşinli, meaning of Hemshin), also known as Hamshenis, Homshentsi, and Khemshils, (Armenian: Համշենի; Russian: Амшенцы; Laz: Sumexi (სუმეხი) are a group of peoples who originated in a mountainous district called Hemşin (historically "Hamshen") now located in Turkey's eastern Black Sea region. It is generally accepted that they were Armenian in origin, and were originally Christian and members of the Armenian Apostolic Church, but over the centuries they evolved into a distinct ethnic group. They are currently divided into three subgroups that are almost oblivious to one another's existence. These divisions were the result of population movements initiated by resistance to forced conversion to Islam and, latterly, for economic reasons.

The Hemshin Peoples are a number of diverse groups of people who in the past history or present have been affiliated with the Hemşin area. They are called (and call themselves) as Hemshinli (Turkish: Hemşinli), Hamshenis, Homshentsi meaning resident of Hemshin (historically Hamshen) in the relevant language. . Further designations are Khemshils, (Armenian: Համշենի; Russian: Амшенцы; Laz: Sumexi (სუმეხი)). Various contributors to the book "The Hemshin" published in 2007 also use the term "The Hemshin" in addition to the above designations to refer to those peoples. Hemshin is located in Turkey's eastern Black Sea region. The Ottoman conquest of Hemshin in the 15th Century is followed by migrations, both to and from Hemshin, as well as Islamization. Consequently, distinctive communities with the same generic name have also appeared in the vicinity of Hopa, Turkey as well as in the Caucasus. Those three communities are almost oblivious to one another's existence.

Original version

Omer182's rewritten version

According to the History of Ghewond, an Armenian chronicler generally accepted to be from the late 8th century, after the Arab invasions of Armenia the Armenian nakharars (lords) Shapu Amatuni and his son Hamam, together with thousands of their subjects, abandoned their lands in the Lake Van region. They migrated to Byzantine-ruled Pontus, where they were granted lands. Ghewond dated this event to c.790, but another chronicler, Step'anos Ashoghik Taronets'i, dated it to the 750s. Hemshin folk traditions recorded in the 19th century told that the Hemshinli were the descendants of Armenian migrants led by a prince Hamam, who built a town named Hamamashen in their new lands. Over time Hamamashen became Hamshen, which became the name of the entire region inhabited by the descendants of those migrants. Historians have seen a connection between this story and the Amatuni migration; However, it is not possible to prove this oral history, nor be certain that prince Hamam is the same person as Hamam Amatuni.

Two other Armenian chronicles Ghewond and Stephen Asoghik of Taron, report in short passages in their histories about a migration from Armenia/Oshakan led by prince Shaspuh Amatuni and his son Hamam. Ghewond conveys this immigration to be to avoid heavy taxes imposed on Armenians by the Arab rulers. The Amatuni lords are offered fertile land to settle down by the Byzantine Emperor, after they crossed the Corukh river. This migration is dated to be after 789 by Ghewond and as 750 by Stephen Asoghik of Taron. Benninghaus specifies “Tambur” as the destination of the migration led by Hamam and his father Shapuh Amaduni and says that they have seemingly met people there who were already christians , possibly Greeks. Redgate informs about possible symbolism used in the Ghewond’s history and possible garbling in Mamikonian’s history, and cautions not to take everything at face value [31]. Hachikian states “There is no clue as to where Tambur, the legendary capital of Hamshen, was located. The only certain thing about it is that it clearly belonged to a much earlier time- if it existed at all”. He also mentions in the footnote the name similarity between Tambur and a yayla known as Tahpur or Tagpur, located in the heights of Kaptanpasa. Simonian states that Tambur is probably in the vicinity of Varoşkale (altitude 1800 m). Kırzıoğlu considers the migration to be by a turkish tribe who, before migrating to Hemshin had migrated from Hemedan to Osakan.

BTW,regarding Omer's last sentence in the above paragraph. That Kırzıoğlu person is described as a "pseudo-historian" by R. Bennighaus, and by W. Feurstein as "never before has a single person in Turkey falsified history so massively"!

Meowy 23:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks you both for the long elaborate entries I certainly now more about Hameshins than before. I think disputes about the editorial behavior do not belong to article talk pages. Many edits of Omer you have mentioned do not look problematic to me. Maybe a user RFC is a correct forum for such disputes. I was under impression that we have one or many editorial disputes over the article. Maybe we could go one by one starting from the lead section? Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Please say which of the edits I have cited you consider unproblematic and explain why they are unproblematic to you. It is not possible to dispute constructively (in the normal Wikipedia meaning of the word) anything with Omer, he simply ignores and reverts, ignores and reverts. Meowy 02:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be best to stick with the original versions and work from there. Kırzıoğlu's assumption shouldn't even be mentioned in the article. By the way, what's his full name? Is he a historian or what? It isn't mentioned.

Alex, what do you mean by not problematic? Just compare the originals to his revisions. They aren't very well written, make use of weasel words, and cut out bits for no reason. Hakob (talk) 07:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

It's Fahrettin Kırzıoğlu. Born in Kars in 1917, and was (I think) heavily influenced by the history of the place and (also I think) tried to make that interest acceptable by Turkifying it where possible. He was a teacher, wrote stuff on Kars and Ani, and became, late in life, a professor at Erzurum University. I wasn't aware of his work regarding the Hemshinli until I read the Simonian book. He was an historian, of sorts, an old-school Turkish-style one. Alas, he died a couple of years ago, kind of regret never making a point of meeting him. Last year the GHF demolished (along with a lot of other things) the little street in the old part of Kars that was named after him (was he born there?). Meowy 02:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Whether Omer's edits are problematic or not should be decided by the community or a consensus, I certainly find them problematic and until the concerns raised by Meowy are addressed than the long standing version should remain, that was stable for months prior to Omer's unilateral and controversial changes.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 00:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I have just undid the undiscussed wholesale edits that was just implemented on 00:13 , 4 July 2008, by Eupator who apperaed for the first on this page through this action.Omer182 (talk) 12:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I want to briefly comment on the above discussions:

• I understand Alex's point that the focus here should be on the article from now on. I will thus not answer the allegations about my edits raised by Meowy, as doing so would take too much space here and would probably not serve the main purpose of discussing the article. However, for the record, I want to strongly state that a significant portion of his claims are based on his assumptions about my intents and consequent misunderstanding (or distortion?) and mispresentation of my edits . In case future discussions should touch those allegations, I reserve my right to come back and expose those distortions and mispresentations.
• A suggestion has been raised proposing that we go back to the original version and start from there again. In our case the "original" version would be the one dated June 8 (11:47) , as it is a version which was gradually built over several months, section by section and in a step by step manner, following a "first propose then implement" procedure, as encouraged by Wikipedia. As I recall, the version dated 8 june 2008 includes the lead section of version dated 21 nov 07, the history section of version dated 14 jan 08 and the groups section of versiton dated 13 April 08. In the period from their inclusion to 8 june 08 no edits were made on those sections except for unargumented, undiscussed wholesale revert attacks on the entire article. After this date Meowy's wholesale edits took place where entire passages were replaced overnight (the "originals" as presented in the left hand column in Meowy's argument hereabove are thus not the originals but are actually those which were produced by Meowy during this procedure). Meowy's actions and my own corresponding edits have yielded the version of 22 June 2008 (22:06) which is quite different from the "original" 8 june version in length, level of detail, number of inline citations etc.
• Alex, hoping that we may create a meaningful discussion athmosphere with your help, I want to raise a question regarding your suggestion that we start with the lead section. To my understanding the lead section is supposed to provide a summary of the entry, highlighting the important points. In this regard, would it not be more useful to first consider the presently most important two sections, namely the history and the groups sections, and see whether we have a disagreement there except for style questions . I am ofcourse, ok with starting with the lead section if that seems more appropriate to do so.Omer182 (talk) 09:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

A summary translation of the above: "Omer says he will revert undiscussed edits done by others, Omer says he will not answer questions about his own edits, Omer says that every editor must have Omer's prior approval before any material is added into the article, Omer requires that his own contributions already in the article must always remain untouched by other editors because only Omer is permitted to change them". Meowy 17:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW, Omer's assertion that the materials I called in the above tables "original versions" are not original versions is incorrect. There was no mention of the Hetu'm of Corycos/Purchas account in the article until I added that material. That material was then removed without discussion by Omer, removed by him again when I reinserted it, then it eventually reappeared as the garbled "Omer182's rewritten version". Same for the Shapu Amatuni migration / prince Hamam material - that material was not there until I put it there, it was repeatedly removed by Omer, then after a while it reappeared as the garbled "Omer182's rewritten version". Omer never bothered explaining his repeated removal of all that referenced material, nor did he ever bother discussing beforehand his rewritten versions. Meowy 17:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's examine the first half of the current lead section, and what is wrong with it. Meowy 19:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Current version, created by Omer	What is wrong with it?	Response from Omer	Response from Meowy
The Hemshin Peoples are a number of diverse groups of people who in the past history or present have been affiliated with the Hemşin area. They are called (and call themselves) as Hemshinli (Turkish: Hemşinli), Hamshenis, Homshentsi meaning resident of Hemshin (historically Hamshen) in the relevant language. . Further designations are Khemshils, (Armenian: Համշենի; Russian: Амшенцы; Laz: Sumexi (სუმეხი)). Various contributors to the book "The Hemshin" published in 2007 also use the term "The Hemshin" in addition to the above designations to refer to those peoples. Hemshin is located in Turkey's eastern Black Sea region. The Ottoman conquest of Hemshin in the 15th Century is followed by migrations, both to and from Hemshin, as well as Islamization. Consequently, distinctive communities with the same generic name have also appeared in the vicinity of Hopa, Turkey as well as in the Caucasus. Those three communities are almost oblivious to one another's existence.	1) The English is badly written, grammatically incorrect, and structurally confusing. 2) It does not follow what seems to be the standard format for Wikipedia articles (which is to place all the alternative names in, or close to, the article's first sentence). 3) It takes 85 words to give the various alternative names for the Hemshinli, whereas my version says exactly the same thing in only 23 words. 4) The "Various contributors to the book "The Hemshin" published in 2007..." sentence is not the sort of thing that should be in an article's lead section. 5)The "Hemshin is located..." sentence begins 86 words into the lead section. It is ridiculous that a reader should be made to wait that long before learning where the main population group lives. In my version this is done after only 32 words - and my version also contains more information, saying that it is "a mountainous district". 6) The "The Ottoman conquest of Hemshin....". From that section, with those words at the start, a reader would make the assumption that the population movements were a result of an invasion. That is not correct. The population movements were a result of resistance to (and escape from) forced Islamization that was done either directly, in the form of actual violence, or indirectly, in the form of punitive taxation and discriminatory laws. My version succinctly summarises those correct reasons. 7)Omer's version also does not mention the two essential points about the Hemshinli's origin – that they were originally Christian and Armenian. My version does. 8)In my version the locations of the three groups are explained in the second paragraph, so the "the vicinity of Hopa, Turkey as well as in the Caucasus" sentence would not be needed in the first paragraph. Meowy 21:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)	Meowy’s comparison table quotes only first part of the lead section (as mentioned by Meowy as well). Therefore, some statements included in my version of the lead section are not reflected in the table and Meowy is criticising lack of some information in my version although they actually exist in the part he/she has not quoted. Having said that, herebelow are my detailed responses: 1) Those are generalities which I do not agree. I assume Meowy is detailing them below. I will respond to them point by point. 2) I am not aware of any such Standard format. What I am aware of is ( Wikipedia:Manual of Style) that “If possible, an article title is the subject of the first sentence of the article” to which my version complies and Meowy’s version does not. (Actually, such recommendations are not to be taken with an emphasis, I believe going into this level of style detail in discussing such a complex article is awkward.) 3) This statement is factually wrong. Meowy’s 23 words seems to count the words of just a part of a sentence which includes the list of the names. My 86 words includes, in addition to the mere names, the following information: (i) that the Hemshin peoples are a number of a diverse groups of people, (ii) that those people have been affliated with the Hemshin area in the past history or present, (iii) that there are different categories of names namely (a) the ones used by both Hemshinli and others to designate the Hemshinli, (b) names used only by specific groups of non-hemshinli and finally (c) the term “the Hemshin”. I think such differentiation is important information. It can be argued that the designations used by specific non hemshinli groups of people (like sumexi by Laz) can be omitted alltogether. I do not think this is what Meowy proposes. With regard to the term “the Hemshin” some kind of explanation is necessary, because there is no humanbeing on earth that calls himself/herself “Hemshin” or calls a Hemshinli “Hemshin”. It sounds exactly like when a newyorker says “I am Newyork”. On the other hand, this name is used by some authors in their publications (to the best of my knowledge only in Simonian’s book). I have tried to express this situation in my previous edits with different sentences which all have met Meowy’s opposition. I have shown here above that the 86 words are not equivalent to Meowy’s 23 words. In any case, it should have already been obvious that the content of 86 words can not be the same with that of 23 words, even if there is inefficient use of language. 4) For my comment regarding this statement, see above. I personally do not believe that this term which has been used only in a specific book should necessarily be included in the lead section. The only reason I included it was to accomodate Meowy’s wishes. If he/she can come up with a formulation to include the same information in a more elegant way, we will have no difficulty in agreement. 5) In this entry we are considering various groups of peoples who are deginated through different names in different categories. I believe there is no unnecessary information given in my version and none of it should be dropped just to make sure that the map-location where they live is introduced earlier in the text. If Meowy considers the information “mountainous district” important , no objections to include those two words as well. 6) To start with I want to mention that the term “conquest” is a term which Meowy seems to be very fond of in his/her edits, and therefore I have overtaken it to my edits as well. Now Meowy used the term “invasion”, which is in its sense different from “conquest”. I had used the term “annexation” in my earlier edits (In choosing terms, we should not forget that the Ottoman-Turkish authority has made Hemshin part of the Ottoman land and since about 500 years it is part of the same country. Therefore “invasion” is not a good fit and in my opinion “annexation” is the appropriate one). My statement that the annexation (conquest) is followed by migrations is totally true. It does not imply that population movements happened during or right after the conquest, i.e. the flee of people due to the onslaught of the conquering army. However, if Meowy thinks that the current formulation is not clear, I think we can agree on one. I can suggest the following: “In 15th century, Hemshin was annexed by the Ottoman Empire. During the Ottoman period, two most important developments are migrations and Islamization. ” My version includes the statement “The details and the accompanying circumstances for the migrations and the Islamization process during the Ottoman era are not clearly known and documented. [13]”. In my opinion this statement addresses the issue more correctly. This statement is in part of the lead section that Meowy did not quote in the comparison table. 7)My version includes the statement: “The ethnical make up of the people living in Hemshin prior to the Ottoman conquest is similarly not clearly known and documented. [14] Generally it is accepted that there have been immigrations into this region in medieval times, especially from Osakan in Armenia. [15][16] It is well documented that the majority of people living in Hemshin were Christians of the "Armenian Apostolic Church" prior to Ottoman Conquest. [17]”. In my opinion this statement addresses the issue more correctly. This statement is in the part of my version that Meowy did not quote. 8)I could not understand what Meowy criticised here. Omer182 (talk) 16:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)	1) Of course it is a generality. Omer may think his writing skills are good, but I think anyone reading Omer's text will doubt that to be true. 2) The normal usage is to place all alternative names within a lead section’s first sentence. Take a look at Wikipedia:Lead_section – the "Bold title" subsection, the example showing the various names of the United Kingdom. Omer's version is a far away from that ideal as it is possible to get. Omer's assertion that my version does not have the title in the first sentence is false, and also inexplicable given that it clearly does. 3) My statement is factually correct. Omer's version takes 85 words to complete the lists of all the alternative names, mine takes only 23 to list the same names. Omer's excuse that his is longer because it contains more details doesn't work – all he is doing is showing that his version is incorrectly written: all his extraneous detail and convoluted vagueness shouldn't be there. For his other point, this is the English Wikipedia, "Hemshin peoples" is being used as a language-neutral designator for all the various Hemshin-related population groups, and various books have used that word. Nobody in Turkey calls themselves "Turkish people", yet Wikipedia has its entry titled "Turkish people" and not "Türk Halkı". 4) The phrase "the Hemshin" has been used in other books. For example, see M. Dubin and E. Lucas Trekking in Turkey, p126, 1989. 5) Omer thinks that it is acceptable that a reader should have to wade through 86 words before learning where Hemshin is located. I do not, and I hope other editors will agree with me. I do not understand his blindness to his version’s severe structural failings. Even my version’s mere 32 words could be seen as close to a reader's limit. 6 & 7) Omer is trying to put words into my mouth to avoid answering the questions posed to him. Nowhere was I advocating for the use of the word "invasion" or against the words "conquest" or "annexation"! I was arguing against the use of (and positioning of) phrases that would give a reader a false reality. Omer's alternative phrase "During the Ottoman period, two most important developments are migrations and Islamization" is vague and euphemistic in tone and is not acceptable. Things should be stated honestly and clearly – the population movements were a result of resistance to (and escape from) forced Islamization. Being Armenian and being a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church was, during medieval times, essentially the same thing. So it doesn't make much difference if the "Armenian in origin" phrase were to be taken out of my proposed version, making it "Most sources agree that they were originally Christian and members of the Armenian Apostolic Church. However, Omer's objection to "evolved into a distinct ethnic group" is not valid. It has been accepted that all three Hemshin groups are to be included in this one Wikipedia article because they possess the same historical origin. I.e., the Hemshin as a whole are a single ethnic group, but they are divided into several sub-groups. Or is Omer objecting to the phrase "ethnic group"? If so, it's an invalid POV argument because many books call the Hemshinli an "ethnic group". 8/ I mean that the whole sentence would not be needed if my alternative version was accepted. Meowy 21:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Version proposed by Meowy (and removed by Omer)	What is wrong with it?	Response from Meowy
The Hemshin or Hemshinli (Turkish: Hemşinli, meaning of Hemshin), also known as Hamshenis, Homshentsi, and Khemshils, (Armenian: Համշենի; Russian: Амшенцы; Laz: Sumexi (სუმეხი) are a group of peoples who originated in a mountainous district called Hemşin (historically called "Hamshen") located in Turkey's eastern Black Sea region. Most sources agree that they were Armenian in origin, and were originally Christian and members of the Armenian Apostolic Church, but over the centuries they evolved into a distinct ethnic group. They are currently divided into three subgroups that are almost oblivious to one another's existence. These divisions were the result of population movements initiated by resistance to forced conversion to Islam and, latterly, for economic reasons.	To start with let me clarify that Meowy's proposal was created by completely removing my version. My version, on the other hand, was developed by means of taking into consideration Meowy's earlier criticism and some of his/her proposals. The comments I have provided in the above table covers what I think is wrong with Meowy’s version. Therefore the comments hereunder are in my opinion – at least partially- repetition of the above. Nevertheless, I still want to enter them here as well just to avoid an allegation later on claiming that I have not entered "anything in response to "what is wrong" related to Meowy's version”. 1) The first sentence should have the title of the article as the subject. (see WP ( Wikipedia:Manual of Style ), as in the first sentence of my version (See also above table for my views on style issue). 2) The fact that the designation "the Hemshin" is placed as the very first name is a mistake (see my comments in the above table for details). The differences in the nature of the designations are not explained (see my comments in the above table for details) 3) The phrase "originated from Hemshin" suggests that the majority/all Hemshinli are not located in Hemshin (original place) anymore. This is misleading because most of them are still living in Hemshin. Additionaly, some of the Hemshinli have actually settled in Hemshin only after some of the earlier Hemshinli have left the region. BTW even those who migrated from Hemshin did possibly not originate from Hemshin but had migrated to Hemshin from Osakan and previously had migrated to Osakan from Hemedan (sources hereto are given in the article under my version "history until Ottoman Conquest") 4) The phrase "a group of peoples" is also misleading because it implies that they have very much in common with each other although they don't in reality. 5) I had already inserted on the talk page on 12 june my objections upon Meowy’s first removal and change of my version then. Quoting from those comments, “Anyone who has spent some time on this issue knows that the topics of ethnicity (hesitate to say race), language, religion, migrations are controversial…Meowy's proposal declares all the people affiliated with Hemşin to be (unquestionably) of the same "origin", to be "armenians", to still belong to mutual "ethnicity", to have been subject to "forced islamization", etc..It is true that all these views are found in some literature but they are neither generally accepted nor unopposed. Therefore Meowy's proposal is not neutral. The above mentioned issues may be dealt with in the sections "history" and "groups"..Actually my present edits try to do that...”. Besides this, it should also be recalled that such claims are strongly rejected by the Hemshinli in Turkey. The WP article should not start with statements which are disturbing to Hemshinli in Turkey themselves who are the main topic of this article, especially given that the issue is controversial. 6) The phrase “evolved into a distinct ethnic group” is wrong. All these groups do not belong to a single ethnic group. That the Hemshinli of Hemshin proper and (in spite of the additional language ) even Hopa Hemshinli do not consider themselves as a special ethnicity is a fact without opposition. 7) This part includes controversial statements related to “forced islamization”. Again, the presence of such claims may be mentioned in the article in an appropriate form along with sufficient information for the reader to understand the background of such claims . However presenting them as unquestionable facts in the lead section constitutes POV. See also the above comments related to “Armenian origins” issue.Omer182 (talk) 17:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)	That is wrong. Your version completely removed the earlier version. Unlike yours, the version proposed by me grew out of earlier versions, and also incorporates some of your material and suggestions, such as the phrase "group of peoples". 1) What a bizarre comment to make! The first sentence clearly does contain the title, along with (and unlike your version) every alternative name for the Hemshin-related population groups. 2) The article's title is "Hemshin peoples", so of course Hemshin should come first! In this talk page you agreed to "Hemshin peoples" as the article's title. 3) The phrase "originated from Hemshin" is factually correct. Are you saying it is not? The majority of the Hemshin peoples do not live in Hemshin region anymore, nor even do the majority of Turkish Hemshinli. Also, stop engaging in original research with your "possiblies". And additionally, nobody has proven that the account of the Amatuni migration form "Osakan" is historically true, or that it is actually connected to origin of the Hemshinli. 4) You were the one who first used the phrase "group of peoples"! 5) All of this is just your personal opinions – it has no validity for the article's content. All credible sources agree that the various sub-groups originated in the Hemshin/Hamshen region. Sources that are not credible or that are very marginal opinions should not be given place in a lead section. "The article should not start with statements which are disturbing to Hemshinli in Turkey" - really! Will we be be editing other Wikipedia articles to reflect that "policy" of not "disturbing" vested-interest groups? 6) The phrase "evolved into a distinct ethnic group" is essentially correct. Wherever they came from, whatever their origin, they are a distinct ethnic group and aspects of that distinctiveness developed over time. 7) "Forced islamization" is not a controversial phrase, and it accurately summarises the historical reality. There is a chapter about it in Simonian's book, and he uses that phrase. Some of this Islamization was, as I had said earlier, indirect, in the form of punitive and selective taxation of Hemshin’s Christian population, discriminatory laws leading to lack of land ownership security, etc. Some of it was more direct: massacres and threats of massacres. Almost none of it was voluntary. Meowy 23:31, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree that Omer is showing signs of WP:OWN. Omer as you can see many of us are willing to listen and consider your changes, but pushing them thru edit warring is not gonna get you anywhere. Please discuss the changes, get a consensus and then make changes. At the present you announce that your going to drastically change half of the article and proceed in changing it right away. Those type of changes are almost always going to get reverted and the last one wasn't an exception. VartanM (talk) 08:01, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Vartan

• If you had the chance to read thru the discussion which you have archived on 5 july you would have seen that IT IS NOT ME who makes wholesale reverts and changes without discussion. You have reverted to a version created by user who had made a wholesale edit without any discussion. I have to revert it . I hope you now see the situation and that you are sincere in your statements and so help me in preventing such attacks on the article…especially as there is a possibility of a meaningful discussion on the agenda.

• BTW, the link for the archive you have formed points to Talk:Shusha, can you fix it? Omer182 (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Alex, this is a quick update on the discussion:

• I was (and still am) in the hope of having a meaningful discussion. However a new user (Eupator) has implemented a wholesale edit with no discussion what so ever, followed by my revert. Vartan then reverted back to Eupator's version probably thinking that it was the standing version, which forces me to implement a revert as well. It seems we are heading towards further confusion instead of a disciplined discussion.

• I have raised a question regarding the discussion, namely would it be better to start with the history section as opposed to the lead section.

• Meowy has recently set up comparison tables for his and my versions of the lead section. To make sure that we can keep a disciplined discussion, I will wait for your response regarding the above question. If you see fit to go ahead with the lead and start it with Meowy's comparison idea, I will comment on his remarks. Omer182 (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no version. I haven't made a single edit. I just reverted your edits to a version before you made these changes which reuslted in this mess, should be very clear.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 00:01, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Please indicate with version (date and time) you are reverting back to (It is not clear to me). What is clear is that you are undermining several months of edits and discussions (even the dispute tag placed in October 2007 is removed) by acting like that. So please understand that you are the one creating the "mess" and please stop doing so.Omer182 (talk) 17:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Omer - it is your response to my many points that is awaited. I expect you to respond here to the points I have made regarding the problems with the current lead section, addressing each of the concerns I have raised in the "what is wrong with it" section of the above table, as well as saying what (if anything) you think is wrong with my alternative version. I've added a table cell for your response (look for the "Please write your comments below here, Omer" message in the table code) or you can reply as a normal posting. BTW, I fixed the archive link. Meowy 14:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

As a response from Alex is still missing, I have entered my comments to Meowy's criticism of my version in the related table. For presentation purposes I have numbered his/her statements and answered on the column dedicated for my response using corresponding numbers. Omer182 (talk) 16:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I have now filled in the table related to what is wrong with Meowy's version. For tractability purposes, I have aligned parts of the version with my corresponding concerns. Omer182 (talk) 17:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

And I have responded to your comment's. 3rd-party comments are also needed. Meowy 23:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

New proposal for lead section

Meowy and I have informed each other about our opinions. Meowy’s final entries give me the impression that in some points we are simply speaking past each other and in some other points we do indeed have different opinions/approaches. Nevertheless we now at least know more about each other’s position. In light of what I have observed, I think that in some points we may actually reach a consensus.

Therefore I would like to refrain from furthering this cycle of detailed responses and rather try to propose a modified wording which may provide ,at least in some points, consensus: I will propose the modifications taking the current version as the basis, taking the criticism to it in consideration and also keeping an eye on Meowy’s “praises” on his/her version . First I wish to offer explanations regarding the modifications envisioned, and then propose the complete alternative text right after the explanations:

“ It takes 86 words to introducing the location of Hemshin” issue:

The sentence “Hemshin is located in Turkey's eastern Black Sea region” could be shifted to the top and be integrated into the first sentence.

“ The lead is too lengthy ” issue:

Designation of the peoples who have two mother tounges, and are referred to by others with several additional designations, in 4 different alphabets does take some space. ( BTW we have neglected one of the main alphabets; namely the arabic letters used in Ottoman era and I don’t propose at this time to add that as well).

I believe the difference in nature of those designations (please refer to my more detailed elaborations in the above table regarding these differences) is important and I would like to point this out in the lead section. I do not believe it is essential to include the Khemshils and Russian and Laz but do not necessariliy object to their inclusion and keep them in the text as I feel this is Meowy’s preference.

Having the above in mind, maybe Meowy can come up with a shorter formulation.

“The Hemshin” issue:

Upon Meowy’s indication, I now see that the term “the Hemshin” is used in yet another publication: “Trekking in Turkey” on page 126, ”...is home to the Hemshin, a turkish speaking tribe...”.

Therefore I do accept now that the 2007 book “The Hemshin” is not the only case where this term comes up. I still believe that this term is used only in publications and also that it is used only in limited occasions. Therefore this term should not be mingled with names like Hemshinli/ Homshentsi.If Meowy thinks that this term must be mentioned in the lead section but he/she also agrees to my wish to differenciate it; the following proposal may be considered:

“The term “The Hemshin” is used also in some publications to refer to Hemshinli (hereto inline citations “The Hemshin” and “Trekking in Turkey”)”.

Armenian/christian issue…and “Migration from Osakan”:

I agree with the reasoning of Meowy. His/her reformulation is also acceptable with very slight changes as follows: “Most sources agree that prior to Ottoman era majority of the residents of Hemshin were Christian and members of the Armenian Apostolic Church.” . I also agree to locate this statement earlier in the text. I further agree to take out the migration from Osakan out of the article.

Ethnicity issue:

I see we have an ongoing difference there.I have on my part no objection to delete my sentence at the end of the lead section related to “ethnicity” if that could help finding an agreement. With this assumption, I have deleted that sentence in the proposed version.

Ottoman era /islamicization/migratons issues:

I see that my last proposal does not fully satisfy Meowy but feel that at least part of his/her concerns are adressed. I will stick to that for the time being. This point obviously needs more discussion which we can have right after clearing the other points.

Proposal:

Having the above in mind my proposal for the lead section is as follows: (The statements in bold italics are those that I would be indifferent between inclusion and exclusion from the section)

The Hemshin Peoples are a number of diverse groups of people who in the past history or present have been affiliated with the Hemşin area [2][3][4] which is located in Turkey's eastern Black Sea region. They are called (and call themselves) as Hemshinli (Turkish: Hemşinli), Hamshenis, Homshentsi (Armenian: Համշենի) meaning resident of Hemshin (historically Hamshen) in the relevant language. [5] . Further designations are Khemshils, (Russian: Амшенцы; Laz: Sumexi (სუმეხი)). [6] The term “The Hemshin” is used also in some publications to refer to Hemshinli (hereto in line citations “The Hemshin” and “Trekking in Turkey”) In 15th century, Hemshin was annexed by the Ottoman Empire. During the Ottoman period, two most important developments are migrations and Islamization. ”[8] Most sources agree that prior to Ottoman era majority of the residents of Hemshin were Christian and members of the Armenian Apostolic Church. The details and the accompanying circumstances for the migrations and the Islamization process during the Ottoman era are not clearly known and documented. [13]

As a result of those developments , distinctive communities with the same generic name have also appeared in the vicinity of Hopa, Turkey as well as in the Caucasus. Those three communities are almost oblivious to one another's existence.[9]

The Hemshinli of Hemshin proper (also designated occasionally as western Hemshinli in publications) are Turkish-speaking Sunni Muslims who mostly live in the counties (ilçe) of Çamlihemşin and Hemşin in Turkey's Rize Province.

The Hopa Hemshinli (also designated occasionally as eastern Hemshinli in publications) are Sunni Muslims and mostly live in the Hopa and Borçka counties of Turkey's Artvin Province. In addition to Turkish, they speak a dialect of western Armenian they call "Homshetsma" or "Hemşince" in Turkish.[10]

Homshentsik (also designated occasionally as Northern Homshentsik in publications) are Christians who live in Abkhazia and in Russia's Krasnodar Krai. They speak Homshetsma as well [11]. There are also some Muslim Hemshinli living in Georgia and Krasnodar[citation needed] and some Hemshinli elements amongst the Meskhetian Turks. [12] Omer182 (talk) 23:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I haven't yet had the time to make a properly considered reply to the above. Meowy 01:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hemshin in Turkey

Just to give you a little background, I am a Turkish American whose family comes from Hemsin proper, specifically from the village of Tecina/Akyamac and go back their often, given my grandmother still lives there and the fact that my parents made every effort to ensure we had strong ties to our roots and where they grew up.

I do prescribe to the fact the Hemsinli population is a mix of the original ethnic Armenians that lived there and the Turks who migrated to the area.

I do however strongly object to the following language:

"The Kemalist "Turkey for the Turks" ideology, writes Neal Ascherson, "offered no security for minorities" with "the tiny Hemşinli group having especially compelling reasons to keep its head down" because "its members are the descendants of Armenians". [54] In order to avoid accusations of "separatism" the Hemshinli are discreet and unprovocative about their own identity, taking a full but unobtrusive part in Turkish society."

The Hemsinli people are extremely patriotic. And when I mean patriotic, I mean patriotic of their Turkish nationality and heritage. They consider their Turkish identity as a source of pride. When they send their sons off to to do their army service, the celebrate this in a huge way because their sons are performing the same duties they had, and their grandfathers had, and so on. If any of the people living in our villages were to read this, they would be deeply offended. Very clearly this language was written by a scholar with their own view of events, but it unfair to attribute these feeling of ill-will upon the Hemsinli people, especially since it couldn't be farther from the truth. I would delete this paragraph in its entirity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.110.238.152 (talk) 13:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The quote is from a credible and serious source, it can't be removed just because you or some vested-interest group doesn't like what it says. And the fate of the film-maker that is mentioned in the article and who did not "keep his head down" shows the quote has truth. The point the quote is making is not what the Hemshinli think of being Turkish, or how "Turkish" their self-identity is, it is about how the Turkish state would behave towards the Hemshinli if their distinct ethnic identity was expressed more strongly.

Although it is, unfortunately, becoming increasingly common for them to do so, academics should not pander to the beliefs, or self-interests, or dilusions, of specfic ethnic, political, or religious groups. Neither should Wikipedia articles - to do otherwise could see, for example, the page on George Bush edited to remove anything the Republican Party doesn't hold to be true, or the page on Hilter rewritten because neo-Nazis might be offended by its content, and so on for countless articles. Meowy 01:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

the ip number user is absolutey right that the negative propaganda about Turkey should be removed.ı don't see any credible argument put forward by meowy.Wikipedia is not the place for propaganda wars. That paragraph will be removed.Cihsai (talk) 21:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Cihsai, I advise you to change your editing attitudes, they are not in sympathy with accepted behaviour on Wikipedia. Meowy 15:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverted to prior version before Omer's edits, he was unable to reach a consensus. VartanM (talk) 03:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Vartan,

I am sure you know more about the development of this entry than your unjustified move suggests.

History of the article as well as the history of the talk page, including the section which you have archieved, show clearly that my edits are in line with the wikipedia policies.

If you could not understand the development, tell me so that I can give you, once again, a summary of the development.

For the record, a brief description of where we stand is as follows:

• lead section: user meowy raised some concerns on the current version and a detailed discussion is taking place..I have proposed a new wording which may meet both our approvals...a response from meowy is yet to come (See Meowy’s response to my proposal on 18 July 2008).
• history and groups sections: The current versions are the result of a development through which objections regarding use of weasel words and lack of inline citations were adressed... specific arguments against the current versions or meaningful proposals for further development are as of today not put forward.

Those three sections are the ones I have dealt with since I started contributing.

If you have anything to contribute, do so in proper manner. Do not attempt to nullify months of editing and discussion with artificial pretexts.

BTW, note that this section of the discussion page is devoted (by another user) to the section of the article about the “ Hemshin in Turkey” (which I had not yet touched, but will probably start contributing to the discussion). By putting your comments related to my earlier edits in this part of the talk page, you have also actually disrupted the ongoing discussion related to this section. Note that this amounts to “messing up” of the talk page.Omer182 (talk) 22:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Once again, not one user supports the version of the article you created. You do not own the article and have not established consensus for any of the controversial changes you added without receiving support. I reverted yet again to a version free of your modifications. Instead of contnuing edit warring with multiple users, I suggested before that you initiate an RFC to see if anyone within the wiki community supports your version. See: Wikipedia:Requests for comment-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 23:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Eupator,

This is the third time you have engaged in such a wholesale revert, which takes the entry back to a much earlier version (to a version prior to 9 October 2007). It is interesting that you have not written a single word so far in the talk page related to the content of the entry.

As you know, the basic principles of Wikipedia are to engage in good-faith discussions before major edits and presenting information based on reliable sources. This is the place for discussion. Given that you are eager to revert the article to a much earlier version, removing the fully referenced lead, history and groups sections, I invite you to join the discussion by answering the below:

1- What exactly do you find incorrect related to the lead section? Do you have anything to add in addition to what Meowy has raised in our discussion? What do you think of the proposal I have raised in response to feedback from Meowy?

2- What exactly do you find incorrect related to the (fully referenced) history section you have removed. Be specific! Tell the contributors which statements need to be modified (and why)?

3-Same questions for the groups section…

Note that if you deny answering these questions in reasonable manner, it either means that you try to avoid discussion, or that you simply are not interested in the subject and do not have sufficient knowledge to share. In either case refrain from blind reverts.Omer182 (talk) 14:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Peoples!

Are the Hemshin PeopleS? I think they are ethnic group and the article's nane have to be changed! Jingby (talk) 07:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)