Talk:John Howard

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Criticism

I think that a paragraph or so about public perception and criticism of Howard is necessary for a NPOV, lets face it not everyone likes john howard. nasrmg 10:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That's funny. I thought this article was already marginally anti-Howard. Xtra 02:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Is this suggeston a joke? Criticism sections actively engage in debate against the topic of the article, wholly against the neutral-point-of-view policy. michael ^talk 02:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

No seriously i got the idea when i was reading pages of other political leaders,ie george bush, maybe there should be an overall segment on criticism, just a thought u know, as this page is targeted so much for vandalism :p, i dunno. nasrmg 7:23pm, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

It's better not to have them as they are an invitational to everyone to threw in every random objection. The "Criticism of" articles are a terrible breach of NPOV. Chicheley 22:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this is completely false. Most public or political figures have criticisms sections, including George W. Bush and other world leaders. A crticisms section, or at least a section denoting his popularity. Not adding any criticism or noting the failures of any leader or person would imply that everything that is covered of that particular person is a positive success, therefore not having a criticisms section or explicitly denoting public crticism of the figure in question is a breach of the NPOV since all it is that you have covered has been positive, and anything that favors, or doesn't favor a particular figure (and writing all positive materials and not explicitly stating criticisms does this). If we write both his shortcomings and his successes in equal light and equal explicitly, in my view this is most perfect execution of a neutral point of view. But.. nah, let's just go on writing wholly positive things in great explicity with little tid-bits of crticism and any such mentioned figure's shortcomings scattered implicity throughout the article. Not having a criticisms section, while wholly covering the success of this man's career, is a fine breach of NPOV if I have ever seen one.--Mofomojo 01:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms are entirely valid. NPOV REQUIRES the section to be present. "Every random objection" That statement and sentiment is false (and disingenuous). Wikipedia is against vandalism.-A101 (Beneaththelandslide has tried to remove this comment, calling it Vandalism) Note to Beneaththelandslide: This is a discussion area, this comment is on-topic, so gtfo or I will report you.

Quit being rude. There are boundaries for civility, and if you use that sort of language repeatedly, you're likely to wind up being blocked. Rebecca 05:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

it's rude to delete someone else's comments and call it vandalism, yet you are silent on that. Irony ftl.. Next time show some consistency (and civility) and look at the history of the comments first.

I agree. If other public figures get one then so should he. As someone who has faced a lot of criticism it is censorship if Wikipedia tries to cover that up. --59.167.218.7 16:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. If we're going to add a criticism section, then we'd have to add a praise section to maintain neutrality. The idea of a praise section for Howard disgusts me more than words can say.I elliot 16:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Actions, reactions, results of Howards Policies

well instead of critisims explicitly, why not add actions/reactions/results of his policies, a lot of people come to wikipedia to find out about this stuff, This would be nuetral and the results section can still be objective - it is history.

I agree, doing this WOULD definitely suit the article fine and would fit the NPOV standard perfectly.--Mofomojo 01:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it would not. This would be a recipe for bias, which is why it isn't used on any other political article I've ever seen. The current article does a far better job of reflecting both sides of the issue, without an anti-section. Rebecca 05:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Criticism_and_public_perception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_blair#Criticism Now you've seen 2 of current leaders. "This would be a recipe for bias" Criticism is not bias. "without an anti-section" That is a mischaracterisation. Rather than the section being biased, your comments are instead biased. Enjoy the criticism sections. -A101

And, as a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV, they will be duly reverted. The fact that Beneaththelandslide and I come from opposite sides of the political spectrum, yet are referring to your attempts as bias should tell you something. Rebecca 06:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

We have no intention of putting up criticism sections for the same reason we don't put up 'positives' sections. Howard's action are simply presented; people are free to interpret them as they like. michael ^talk 06:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Rebecca: You are mistaken. Beneaththelandslide has never "referred" to my "attempts" (???) as "bias" (how so?). @both: Criticism IS NOT bias..GG -_- I think you both need to look up the word and also think about the function of criticism. It is a democratic tradition and a historical reality. All leaders have criticism and documentation of it is informative and interesting about the time of their reign. Regardless, there is a lot of cleaning up to do in wikipedia, because there are political figures in whom opinions run as fact in the main body of articles, yet nothing has been done. @michael: Who is "we" in, "We have no intention"?-A101

Actually, this article looks pretty even-handed to me. There's not much to object to no matter where you stand on Howard. About the only problem I have seen so far is the unsupported claim that Howard most likely knew that children were not thrown overboard at the time that he made his original claims. I'm sure that claim is true, but it needs references as a negative point in a BLP. I'll see if I cann dig up a ref. Good job. Leeborkman 06:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I cant see the problem in having a criticism section. And i suggest that people do look up its meaning here (criticism). It doesnt provide views that are anti-something, it simply provides views that people have; views that are both positive or negative. It is obviously not POVed as these sections are prevalent in many major articles. A cirticism section would provide readers with many of the common views held by those for and against Howard, as long as it was monitered and those views (most likely provided through polls, prominent publications or research) were backed up with multiple credible sources. Jarryd Moore 05:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

vandalism

hey this page is vandalised an awful lot, i mean every second time i check this page, it has been vandalised,maybe it should be locked..maybe not the vandalism is pretty funnny lol nasrmg 20:30pm, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Everytime I come to this page there is a new picture of John Howard. I have just changed the picture to his official parliamentry image. People should just leave it alone.Mattrix18 04:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You've got to wonder, what are the motivations of some editors? The replacement of a decent free image with a negative one, the replacement of a free image with one that isn't — really, what's going on here? michael ^talk 04:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Please clarify the military service comment

I guess that the information that, "At 25, Howard was ineligible for conscription and Howard did not join either the permanent military or reserve forces during this period" is a reference to the Vietnam War, and Howard being above the minimum subscription age, but could someone familiar with the topic make the point of the comment clearer in the article please. Thank you. Chicheley 05:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

IMHO the whole sentence has no place in an encyclopedia article and should be removed. Rocksong 12:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC) p.s. I'm not saying it's an illegitimate point to make in a debate on Howard's attitude to war etc, I'm just pointing out that nearly everyone his age would not have enlisted and so to mention he didn't enlist is not noteworthy, just as it is not noteworthy that he didn't play cricket for Australia. Therefore it's out of place in an encyclopedia article, and serves no purpose here other than to put a POV slant on the article. Rocksong 12:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This topic has been extensively canvassed some time ago and a consensus as to the wording reached. It is relevant for those interested in Howard's career to be aware that at a time that he was a prominent and vociferous supporter of both Australia's involvement in the Vietnam war and conscription - he was a prominent YL and a member of the party's state executive at the time he chose not to take what would have been an appropriate course of action ie. to join the colours as both his father and grandfather had done in WW1. It was a different time. Most males (but not Howard) did in fact do some military training in the 50s and 60s - even if it was "only" as a school cadet (in fact a reasonably rigorous training force which used live ammunition in training and issued members with fully functional weapons to take home). A great many male members of the YL did in fact join up to the part time reserve (some to avoid being conscripted to the full time forces for two years) or to the full time forces in order to take advantage of the choice of branch such volunteers were offered but mostly for the "right reason" ie. that it was appropriate for supporters of the government's policies to do so. Many such volunteers were considered (and were in fact) as "elite" and offered short term commissions. So there was no reason for Howard not to take up either of these options - other than what could be interpreted by an unbiased observer as a lack of moral fibre. As someone pointed out elesewhere here joining up voluntarily or being conscripted was not a lifestyle thing.

Additionally as PM Howard has taken (and some would say even manufactured) every opportunity to be associated with the military and has cleared enjoyed such occasions. I am sure that many members of the public observing his cameraderie with serving members of the military would assume that like a large ppn of his age cohort would have had some military experience. Albatross2147 23:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Care to provide a citation that he was a "prominent and vociferous" supporter of the war and conscription? Andjam 01:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

As you are aware the books on Howard are few and far between and because, for want of a better word, the blandness of his early life not much in the way of documentation. But there is in the Fairfax photo archive a shot of a besuited, bespectacled and short haired Howard berating some long haired hippy anti-conscription demonstrators in Martin Place. The bust up with bro Bob came at about this time - as you know Bob was a pretty left activist whereas Alan and Jack weren't. There have been letters in the SMH about this - especcially about 4 yrs ago in the run up to Iraq. Plus if you must know I was there. He was notorious as a pro Conscription advocate among those who opposed to it. He was always skulking around demos getting into slanging matches and sleazing with the Spl Branch. For heaven's sake what would you expect - he was presnit of the YL, pally with the most right wing of the Libs like Darby, Cramer (a relo of Parker's) etc.? Have you got any evidence to the contrary? Albatross2147 14:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware of the photo, but I'm not aware that the photo is of him debating Vietnam. Do you have a citation for that? Andjam 10:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I did not put in an unsigned comment. It happens when one puts in a hard return in an indent. Like this:

- so for someone who says that they are against personal attacks to accuse another wkp of not signing comments in such a heated arena is very bad form. (And you're not such an expert as you think you are.)

Albatross2147 08:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Just repeat the indent for the next paragraph

like this. And no, I don't regard myself as "such an expert". That's why I ask for citations of reliable sources rather than magically knowing something to be the truth. And to avoid being seen as engaging in original research. Andjam 10:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest that if a 1960's-era photograph shows Howard confronting a hippy at an anti-Vietnam War demonstration, he probably wasn't merely sharing his mother's recipe for scones. Context provides more than adequate verification in cases such as this. --Centauri 23:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Care to provide a citation that the photo is of him confronting a hippy at an anti-Vietnam War demonstration? Andjam 12:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Your own comment above, dated 17 July. --Centauri 13:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The comment where I ask Albatross for a citation that the photo is of Howard debating hippies? (Besides, I am not a reliable source, though I thank you for the compliment) Andjam 14:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be suffering a logical disconnect here. Albatross2147 described the content of the photograph, and you stated you were aware of it. If you're aware of it, one might reasonably assume that you've seen it. If so, the content described by Albatross2147 would appear to have been verified by both he and you. It then follows that a third party (ie me) might comment on that content. --Centauri 06:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

All I've seen is the photo itself. Ive not seen anything on where or when it was taken, or what Howard was talking about in it, or to whom, from a reliable source. Andjam 08:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we can be confident that he wasn't passing on your recipe for tripe :-) Albatross2147 09:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

If I thought he was going to do that, I'd have to deafen him in his one good ear. It's a family secret! :-) Andjam 13:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought his hearing was going in both ears? I wish I could provide a citable source for this, but I am reliably told that he's had the party room miked because he couldn't hear the back rows. Regards, Ben Aveling 11:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism Lock

Can we please get a lock on the article, with it's daily vandalisms, it's quite obvious he is the man people love to hate, even online. Timeshift 06:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you referring to semi-protection? Andjam 09:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I've only been wikipeding for a few months so i'm not familiar with the term, but the one where only established members can edit the article.Timeshift 13:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy Banno 21:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC) From a quick look at the history page, it would appear that the vandalism here is under control, though annoying. Banno 21:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

My reading of the page - including the footnoted email by Jimbo Wales - is that John Howard is a very good candidate for semi-protection Rocksong 08:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Then list it at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. If another admin chooses to semi-protect, I won't object. Banno 10:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Can't we just ban Peter Costello's IP? Albatross2147 13:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately not; he is an experienced sock-puppet. Banno 23:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I notice all the references that politically damage the government were mystereriously slipped out during the last vandalism raid. A cynic would be suspicious of so called operatives. This page needs a vandalism lock. Timeshift 16:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

So request one. Banno 19:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

A petrol station?

According to Stay in Touch in the SMH recently, Howard's family actually owned a chain of at least 2 petrol stations. Does anyone still have the article? Regards, Ben Aveling 09:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Most Electorally Successful?

I changed "has been subsequently re-elected in the elections of 1998, 2001 and 2004, making Howard the most electorally successful Prime Minister since Sir Robert Menzies" to "has been subsequently re-elected in the elections of 1998, 2001 and 2004, making Howard the longest serving Prime Minister since Sir Robert Menzies". As of 2006, Howard has won four consecutive elections. Bob Hawke also won four consecutive elections, in 1983, 1984, 1987 and 1990. John Howard has spent more time in the top job, so I changed the line to reflect this. If he wins in 2007, then he'll be the most electorally successful. I elliot 11:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Some kid hugged John Howard

I can't believe this news story has been undeleted not once but twice. As an overview of JWH's life it is totally out of place. Being in the news is not sufficient for a story to be included in Wikipedia: Howard is in the news every single day. Delete it, I say. Rocksong 06:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Noteworthy events and incidents

A kid hugged Howard. That's it? That's all? Thirty two years in parliament, and ten of those in the top job, and this is all you can come up with as far as Noteworthy events and incidents go? Howard is Australia's second longest serving PM, and that was all you could find? That's not encyclopedic, that's a disgrace. Does anyone else recognise the absurdity of this? This should be deleted right away. I elliot 06:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

POV

I deleted the following: "his government delivering in the last 10 years better living conditions than at any time in Australian history, largely due to his government's strong economic policy". Now, I am no Professor of Economics (i.e. not Hewson), but an equally convincing argument exists, that the strong economic growth shown by the Australian economy was due to a significant increase in economic activity and associated infrastructure building in China, which in turn increased the demand for energy and mining exports. I elliot 08:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

ACT Civil Unions legislation

I recently listed the ACT Civil Unions Act under the heading "overruled legislation" and it was promptly removed. The person who removed it left the message "take activism elsewhere." Admittedly, the topic was about same-sex civil rights, but I do not consider my contribution to be politically licentious. It is a fact that the civil unions were overruled, and I feel that it should be included in this article as this overruling was significant historically. Only two pieces of legislation have been overruled in this way, and I don't believe that I was acting erroneously in contributing this pivotal event in Prime Minister Howard's fourth term. Thank you.

This article is already far too long. You say it was a pivotal event in Howard's fourth term, but I don't think many outside the LGBT community would agree. In actuality it only affects a minute proportion of the population, i.e. same-sex couples within the ACT. If anything, all it does is show his views on the topic, which, incidentally, are shared by Federal Labor. If you think its significant, it should be added to an article about the struggle for gay rights in Australia, but not here. I elliot 11:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the overruling was significant because he has not often used the federal power to overrule territory decisions, most notably before that being the NT euthanasia bill. I am reverting because of this. Using a "length" of article excuse for deleting one sentence is not really that convincing in my view. Ansell 21:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

It was not one sentence, it was a paragraph. And yes, this article is far too long. Furthermore, to claim notability because of similarity to something not notable enough to be mentioned in the article (the euthanasia bill) is not convincing IMHO. Hence I have removed the section. We need to face the fact that Howard has spent a lot of time in a very important position, so he's going to make many decisions that are notable to minute numbers of people. But, its very important we ensure that, content-wise, the article is as accurate a reflection of his time as possible, in the context of his entire life. Naturally the greater emphasis will be on his Prime Ministership, but that does not give us licence to add every single thing that makes it into the news.I elliot 05:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, it warrants mentioning somewhere, perhaps as a footnote to a paragraph of the Marriage Act amendment. Leaving out this entire area of policy on the grounds of a bogus claim of "being notable to minute numbers of people" is, well, bogus. Rebecca 05:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It is already mentioned as part of the over-turned legislation.I elliot 06:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Where? I can't see any mention of the overturning of the ACT laws. Rebecca 06:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Within the section "Fourth Term: 2004 to present", the 12th line down. I elliot 07:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It's in list form, which is pretty cruddy. That needs to be converted to prose. Rebecca 07:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I elliot, just stfu. You are acting like a censor. A criticism section would fit perfectly. you should be working with people here to document this honestly. Calling it activism is inaccurate and outrageous. It's a shame this article is so one sided. It needs a criticism section like any other political figure. Are you people so parochial and afraid of one? -A101

Downplaying the impact of the overturn of that legislation is not justified on the basis of it being gay activism is so wrong. Many Australians are extremely concerned about the Howard Government's track record with regard to State Rights. Johnpf 21:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong idea Johnpf, but noone in this debate, 'especially me said that "gay activism is so wrong". I really do apologise if I gave you that idea. It is definitely not an opinion I hold.I elliot 14:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That's OK I elliot. I'm getting a bit edgy on this issue, as I see everyone jumnping up and down on the various views about LGBT aspects, and ignoring the issues of State Rights and Government by Prejudice. I believe that history will see the arrogance of the Federal Govt over-ruling state laws that don't actually impact on the Feds job, but that do have strong political value as a real low point in our democracy. If you read our constitution, it's pretty much a document that spells out the Federal govt's economic powers and responsibility, and leaves the morality issues to the States. I wasn't meaning to accuss you of villification, I was just trying to point out that the issue shouldnt be about gay marriage. I guess I didnt do the best job of making myself clear. Johnpf 11:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Retirement?

Speaking of article length, the section "For as long as the party wants me or two terms in office?" can (IMHO) be substantially shortened now he's made his position clear. I also think the section title should be changed to something less cryptic and less POV, like "Retirement Speculation". Rocksong 07:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC); or "Retirement Plans". Rocksong 07:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

POV - Economic credentials

"This has seen Australia with low inflation, low interest rates, low unemployment, higher wages and a total elimination of government debt [18](Australia now being only one of four nations that can boast this). As proof of Australia's economic credentials fostered under Howard, Australian Treasurer Peter Costello was asked in June 2006 to be the special guest of the G8 Finance Minister's Summit in St. Petersberg, Russia - an organisation Australia is not a part of - to advise these nations on good economic policy."

This is not an entirely objective assessment. Australia currently suffers from some of the highest interest rates in the OECD, high levels of household debt, a skills shortage, major infrastructure constraints, a large current account deficit, stagnant export growth, a declining manufacturing sector, and foreign debt totaling nearly $500 billion - more than half of GDP. Why aren't these mentioned? ZwickauDeluxe

Because it's quite a biased article. It mentions all of the positives (some exagerated) with none of the negatives... quite like the person :-) Please add your contribution as per above though, i'm sure many would appreciate it. Timeshift 16:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

With citations please :) darkliight^[πalk] 22:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Whilst anyone should always use citations and I expect he will, you're not actually trying to deny it's the not the case are you? Just watch parliament question time... :P Timeshift 04:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Re Timeshift: Not at all :) In fact, I wouldn't have a clue either way. Just being cautious in case the OP was to copy and paste the text they gave here. Cheers, darkliight^[πalk] 08:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sadly, parliament question time is not really an effective arena for real debate. Most of the time the opposition is forced to act as reluctant spectators as government frontbenchers strut around like self-adulating peacocks. :( My point is that an economy which borrows more than half of GDP to finance consumption is not an economy built on solid foundations. Howard and co. have been more than willing to take credit for the recent commodities boom, but they have done very little in terms of productive investment. Hence, the reason why Australia continues to live beyond its means, running up billions in foreign debt, with a current account deficit of 6% of GDP. If somebody could suggest a way to present a more objective assessment of John Howard's economic legacy, then I'd be prepared to make the amendments. I'd rather a consensus-driven approach rather than sparking a crude edit war. :P ZwickauDeluxe 06:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's quite obvious if you watch. Howard and co just go off on a tangent and answer an unasked question when challenged on the aforementioned issues. They know it's there but won't admit it. Timeshift 08:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes. Is it just me, or does every question from a Gvt backbencher to Costello end up being answered with a smirky tirade about "Labor's debt"?I elliot 10:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Winston?

In 1939 (when John Howard was born, and presumably named) Winston Churchill was a backbencher with an extremely spotty political career behind him. He did not become Prime Minister until Chamberlain resigned and Lord Halifax declined the position in May 1940, at which time John Howard was several months old. Do we have a reliable source for the reason behind this name or is it ill-founded supposition? --Jumbo 23:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Churchill was quite a major politician, even if he had not been PM yet (think John Howard in 1994 or Bob Hawke in 1982, perhaps?). Still, the idea that he was named after Churchill can easily morph from "educated guess" to "fact". So I say remove it in the absence of a citation. Rocksong 00:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Winston is a family name that was historically peculiar to the Churchill family. When Howard was born there were no other famous Winston's from that family - or any other family - that his parents are likely to been aware of. Winston Churchill had already enjoyed a distinguished 40+ year political career before becoming Britain's wartime PM, and as the author of the Gallipolli campaign in WW1 was well known in Australia. All of this points very strongly to his being the inspiration for the choice of Howard's middle name - but short of asking Howard's parents themselves it's impossible to be 100% certain. --Centauri 12:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

We must have a reliable source before we can state something as a fact. Perhaps the source of the name is available in a biography? --Jumbo 16:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Senate blocking legislation

I changed "The Senate blocked or delayed much of the Government's legislation" to "The Senate blocked or delayed much of the Government's more controversial legislation". Before the Government gained control of the Senate Labor and the minor parties only rejected just over 2% of proposed bills. --Daniel 15:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Continued vandal lock and unlock

I don't know why the vandal block is removed a few days after being added, expecting the vandalism to decrease. It's quite obvious that not a day will go by without Howard's page being vandalised until he is no longer prime minister... and even then I'm sure it will continue for some time. IMHO we need the vandal lock to be permanent. Timeshift 05:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Seconded.I elliot 10:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Thirded. It is very hard to track changes, when most changes are just vandalism + reverts. According to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection, permanent semi-protection is rarely granted. But we can ask. Rocksong 01:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I've requested permanent semi-protection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Rocksong 23:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Request was denied. Rocksong 02:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

To me it seems that the problem really isn't that serious. Given that Wikipedia is vulnerable to this type of vandalism, therein also lies its great strength, of being open and accessible. Yes, there are regular vandals but apart from needing to revert, something which is normally attended to by some astute Wikipedian very quickly, it hardly seems that there is any lingering consequence. The time of exposure for the vanalised material is only a very small fraction of total time really. --Wm 02:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The time to exposure is not the problem to me. The biggest problem is that in my experience articles do not develop when the only activity on them is vandalism and reversion. The time for vandalism on Steve Irwin is low yet it is still protected because people actually want to improve Wikipedia without nuisance edits. Ansell 03:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Arguments on both sides of course. Howard is a difficult subject anyway. The vandalism maybe relates to this inherent difficuly, i.e. controversial nature of the subject. The article, is probably a little too big and sprawls all over the place. Probably few are happy with it but also probably it does develop, although not as fast as we would like sometimes. --Wm 03:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• Heh, request was granted after all. No idea for how long. Rocksong 04:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Semi protection has been requested again at this stage, let's see what happens --Mikecraig 03:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Deputy Sheriff

Does anyone know whether Howard said Australia could be the U.S. deputy sheriff in the region in 2000 or whether he was misquoted or lead into the remark? The term has dogged him for years and came up in the news again on Sept. 7. If true, it seems like a telling detail that belongs in this article.

Googling the ABC site can be useful. It seems that an interviewer, rather than Howard himself, used the phrase in 1999. 7.30 Report, 27-9-99; 7.30 Report, 28-9-99 Rocksong 05:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

JH's pic

What happened to it? Timeshift 17:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

A puzzle. Adam Carr went to some trouble a while back to allow use of images from the parliamentary site. It should be easy enough to upload another copy, using the same sort of permissions. Unless someone has gone through and deleted every similar image, that is, in which case we may have a problem. I'll look into it. --Jumbo 22:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm still puzzled. I uploaded a pic from AUSPIC and used the {{ParliamentofAustralia}} template, gave it the right name, and the article now has another image of John Howard. Click on the photo in the article and you'll see what I mean! Oh well, it's a good photograph of the right guy, so WP is saved for another day. --Jumbo 23:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Now the PM/opp leader pictures look unbalanced on Australian legislative election, 2007 :-\ Timeshift 03:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I've uploaded a new version of "johnhoward.jpg". For some reason the Reps photo "Johnhoward.jpg" which I uploaded this morning over-rides the other one, even if I carefully type the name in without capitals. So the new picture is "John_Howard_with_Flag.jpg". This fixes up the election article. --Jumbo 05:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm taking down the replacement lead photograph. Petaholmes, you surely cannot be serious! It's not that good a photograph, it shows him in front of a U.S. flag, and it's a U.S. government photograph. We should be using an Australian government photograph. --Jumbo 06:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced the "US Flag" image with another free image from the same source. I don't like it much, compared with AUSTPIC and fair use images, but it's better than the previous one, which might be seen as POV. --Jumbo 06:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

John Howard in front of the US flag? Why not? It accurately sums up his foreign, environmental and economic policies. --Centauri 06:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Latham also appeared with some US flags in the background once. That wasn't a very good indication of his attitude towards the "legacy of the White Australia policy". Andjam 09:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The current picture is awful. He's the Prime Minister, surely there's a better picture than that. MickBarnes 13:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, even though I happen to find it amusing :-) Timeshift 13:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The current picture: John_Howard_official12354.jpg is his official picture according to the PRIME MINISTERS website: http://www.pm.gov.au/news/photo_gallery/index.html , people are changing it to pictures that are unflattering. It isn't very NPOV Mattrix18 11:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

APEC

Hi, I've removed this template:Template:1996 Leaders of the Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation Leaders’ Forum If we add it, we should also add all the other years, and I don't think that's appropriate. Regards, Ben Aveling 06:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok... We don't have to add it to his profile... its all good! - peads 00:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Love of cricket

I was just wondering whether or not it is worth making mention of the fact that Howard is a self-described cricket tragic. Given that he has made it clear, on a great many occasions that his only passion outside of politics is cricket, I think it is definitely worth mentioning, as a way of providing more background information about and to humanise the man.

I recall him saying during his interview that his one dream was to captain the Australian cricket team, and although that won't happen, he visits cricket matches whenever possible, and has even done a spot of commentating on several occasions.

What do you think?

There's a story from a Nine reporter which mentions Howard's fanaticism for cricket here. [1]

Deleted the fact Howard is an Australian politician. This should be explicitly obvious as he is Prime Minister. This is the same reason why it says that Ricky Ponting is Australian captain, and doesn't mention he's a cricketer.I elliot 08:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Warhammer

The word warhammer redirects to this page. It obviously should not. I, being a wiki-noob, do not know how to change this. I suspect it might be linked to all the vandalism that has happened to this article.--TylerXKJ 04:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

thanks - fixed. Banno 05:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think you didn't. "warhammer" is still redirecting me to this.

Indeed. Perhaps a problem with the cache. Should be OK now. Banno

Republic Referendum

Something needs to be added regarding the republic debate. It was a huge issue at the time.

There's already a whole article at Australian republic referendum, 1999, though I agree there should be some mention, and a link, in the JH article, Rocksong 12:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

First Lady of Australia?

I've never heard this term in my life in a non-satirical reference - suggest the Prime Minister's wife etc - comments? Danlibbo 11:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It's an Americanisation that has never caught on here. Prime Minister's wife is far more common, and should be used here. Rebecca 11:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree totally. Until such time as we have a female PM, whose husband (if she had one) would be "the Prime Minister's husband". JackofOz 11:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

(Or the PM is bi/homosexual, unmarried, or plurally married) Why list spouse at all in an infobox about a prime minister? We'd be describing someone based on what their spouse is. That may be the norm in some countries but it is fairly uncommon in Australia. Andjam 09:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It's definately the norm in encyclopediae Danlibbo 23:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Current events

While the recently reverted anon's edits were POV, it is probably time to update the issues of the day. I've had a first cut at it. Please to refactor mercilessly. Thanks, Ben Aveling 08:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

John howard's attitude towards and policies on global warming

I believe a small bit of the article should cover this issue.

Here are some reasons why:

• Global warming / Climate Change is the number one concern of Australians today as shown in recent polls (see recent Reports on The ABC's Lateline program).

• JH's coalition has (against the wishes of the majority of the public and importantly all other political parties) significantly affected the global momentum on dealing with climate change by preventing the USA from becoming isolated as the only nation in the world to reject Kyoto. Had he not chosen this action the pressure on USA politicians as well as the public debate there would probably have been significantly affected. "We are the only nation not to..." focuses the media's attention much better than "We are one of the two nations in the world the other one being..." and the power of the media in modern western societies can not be overstated. An issue's media friendliness can make the difference between decades of neglect and instant action by the entire world community (see: slow developing African famines vs. Indian ocean tsunami with video footage to boot!)

• JH is an expert politician even his opponents (me included) find it difficult not to succumb to his ability to present himself as a perfect centrist who understands both sides while all the time pushing essentially the right's agenda. the reason I mention this is that it is quite a rare talent among his colleagues and few others would have succeeded in going against public sentiment on global warming. thus it is possible that his abilities may have afforded him the power to make decisions which others in his place would have been unable to make. In this sense this may be one of the greatest differences his existence in the world has upon that world, as few of his other stances and policies were as distant from the mainstream of public sentiment or as potentially significant.

• It is possible, though unlikely, but still possible that the small difference which he has personally made and will continue to make in slowing the international reaction to climate change causes huge amount of suffering and death in the next few decades across the world. There is even a tiny tiny chance that global warming passes a critical point and a runaway greenhouse effect is caused during the time in which his influence on world affairs could have prevented such a catastrophe. The chance of this scenario is miniscule but its consequence is (to put it mildly) unpleasant.

Ok so lets put it all together:

A politician’s place in history and his own personal abilities have put him in a position to wager the lives of all human-beings on a 9999999/10000000 bet that global warming wont reach a critical point, with the prize being the support of his nation's coal mining industry and the cost the possible fate of civilization.

If this fact is not mentioned in his biography (even as a passing reference) then that biography is less than complete

That's how it seems to me anyway  :)

Burnt-sienna 03:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

maybe - but either it has to be deleted in a short while anyway or there should be a section on all those previous 'attitudes' that he's masterfully navigated his way through eg 'sorry', asylum seekers, gst etc (but yeah - your second last point is worthy - he is an amazing politician) Danlibbo 23:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

oh well. i presented my case for global warming being exceptionally significant, and by the unanoumous decision (1:0) it was rejected  ;) i guess it wasn't a worthy idea after all.Burnt-sienna 05:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Jack Davey radio quiz show

I have amended the material concerning the recording of Howard's appearance on this show to make it more NPOV. I added this material previously but it was removed as "vandalism". I argue that it is POV to say that Howard "delights" the audience, but NPOV to say that he "amuses" the audience, since we can hear the audience laughing, but have no other relevant information. The previous version also gives the markedly POV impression that Howard's appearance was an unqualified success. In fact, Howard got all of the answers wrong, and this needs to be stated to make the material more NPOV. Indeed, it appears to be the case that Howard's succession of wrong answers is part of what amuses the audience. Here is full transcript of the recording:

Davey: John Buchan wrote a book about some steps. How many steps? Howard: Seven. Davey: Seven. Seven. He must have skipped a few. Thirty-nine it is. Goodbye, John. Nice knowing you.

Davey: What do you do for a living? Howard: Oh, I still go to school, Canterbury Boys’ High School. Davey: Allright. That’s your last year is it? [boos from audience]. Who are they? Howard: That’s just me (sic) brother. He went to Canterbury too and… Davey: Oh he did, eh? Howard: He’s got a wife down there with him too. She didn’t go to Canterbury. Davey: She didn’t, ah…

Davey: In botany, a tree whose leaves fall in autumn is called a what-sort-of tree? Howard: A shedding tree. Davey: I could not look you straight in the face, John, and say that it was not a shedding tree, because there it is busily shedding. So therefore it is. It’s called a deciduous tree, but you’ve got the right idea

Davey: What is a mezzanine floor? Howard: A what? Davey: Well, where do you find a mezzanine floor? Howard: Aw, on the floor of a a house in an, aw, in an Eastern country. Davey: You mean a, a harem. Howard: How do you know?

Davey: What is a loch? Howard: Oh, it’s the name of a mountain in Scotland. Davey: Yes, well it is actually. If they hadn’t dug out the loch, there wouldn’t be a mountain. That’s thirty packets you’ve got now.

Davey: Er, mimosa, what’s mimosa? Howard: Oh, it’s the name of a..a sort of native tribal dance. Davey: This fella would have the most colossal imagination I have ever heard! A tribal dance! I don’t know whether he’s right or wrong, but if he’s making these up, he’s not bad. It’s another name for wattle.

Davey: How many people , ah, does it take to make a tête-à-tête? Howard: Tête-à-tête? (Howard sounds very puzzled).

Davey: What is the unusual characteristic of a Kiwi? Howard: It’s got a..a… Davey: No it hasn’t! Howard: Ah, ah, it’s on the face of a tin of boot polish.

Davey: Remember, plenty of work and not too much tête-à-tête and everything will be fine.

AussieBoy 00:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

he's surely improved his debating style since eh? Danlibbo 01:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd amend the section further. Howard doesn't trade unscripted humour - the host throws unscripted humour at him and makes him sound like a bit of a fool. Interesting historically, but not very flattering for Howard, contrary to what the article says. I'd just say that a recording of a young JWH exists, give the link, and leave it at that. Rocksong 01:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It was me, a rabid Howard hater, that added the Davey show reference originally, which I did without any intention of irony (really). When I heard the recording being played (several times) on Richard Glover's show I thought the way JWH conducted himself was OK hence the "delights". It is only when you read the transcript so thoughtfully provided above that you realise what a twerp he is being. Then as now, he is clearly out of touch. (Memo to self - stop trying to be fair) Albatross2147 02:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)