Talk:List of vegetarians

ARCHIVING REFERENCES

It is important to keep references up to date, but as is often the case with web references the links die. When adding a web reference please also archive it at http://www.webcitation.org/archive, so that even if the link dies the page will be archived for reference. If you discover that a link has died, please check to see if there is a record of the page archived at http://www.webcitation.org/query or http://archive.org/web/web.php.

Hitler as a disputed vegetarian

Betty I don't claim Hitler was not a vegetarian but that it is under dispute. And because 90% of his life he probably was not and only in the last 3 years he probably tried to be - it us clearly in dispute weather you can call him a vegetarian. It's fine by me to add any evidence to the reference, as long as you stand a NPOV. Therefore I request you wont try undo the last edits and force your way on a well disputed issue. I thank you and also tip the hat for your snooker contributions. Mateo (talk) 12:18, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

It is not under dispute. As documented at Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism there are historical accounts of him eating meat up to 1937, and as such these reports have been used in the past to challenge the notion he was vegetarian, but these challenges have been well and truly debunked now. In 2013 his food taster at the Wolf's Lair came forward and confirmed that all the food she tested was vegetarian. In addition, in 2017 an analysis of the tartar on his teeth revealed no traces of meat fiber. We now have have witness testimony corroborating the fact he was vegetarian from at least 1942, and that is backed up by scientific evidence. This is a list of vegetarians and Hitler belongs on it, not as a disputed member but as an authentic vegetarian. It does not matter if he was only vegetarian for the final four years of his life: there is no minimum time limit for list additions. Some people get added to this list after just becoming vegetarian, and therefore there are currently people on the list who have been vegetarian less than four years. In some cases it is impossible to know how long they have been vegetarian. Nobody is born vegetarian, they become vegetarian through parental indoctrination or choice. It is not acceptable to use outdated reports to push a vegetarian agenda on this list. Hitler qualifies under the same rules we apply to other list members so he should not be moved to the disputed section. Betty Logan (talk) 12:30, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

You are wrong. This is not just a list vegetarians, but a list of vegetarians and disputed cases. And Hitler is the most famous disputed case. As my accurate edit has shown before it was unrightfully reverted, the food taster also added that Hitler did eat animal parts (not only products) after 1942, specifically broth. So if anything, this testimony shows that Hitler was not a vegetarian, but it clearly shows it's in dispute. A test of meat fiber does not show all the remains that can be traced from a non-vegetarian diet, so it is very a weak evidence and not enough to solve a very long and bitter dispute. But the most important argument for Hitler being disputed is that the amount of time a person has devoted to a vegetarian diet and his or hers strictness is of prime concern when trying to argue that someone is a vegetarian. That is exactly why Albert Einstein is on that list as well. He was probably a vegetarian in the last year of his life but could not avoid animal parts due to health reasons. You may argue that he should be on the vegetarians list, but it is under dispute as well. I Also resent you accusations regarding my motivation of this edit. During the years you made countless revisions that show exactly who has an agenda on this matter. But unlike many advocates of vegetarianism I do not wish to argue that Hitler was not a vegetarians but do urge you to accepts the fact that his definition as such is under dispute. Mateo (talk) 12:58, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Hitler WAS disputed as of 2013. In 2013 Margot Woelk (Hitler's food-taster from 1942) confirmed that all the food she tested was vegetarian, and a forensic analysis of his teeth in 2017 by French scientists found no traces of meat fiber in the tartar on his teeth. We now have scientific evidence that Hitler did not eat meat in the final few months of his life, and witness testimony from a woman forced to be his food-taster and who was at immense risk of being poisoned that he was vegetarian from 1942. Up until 2013 I was more than happy for Hitler to be in the "disputed" section, but since then the facts that have come to light mean it is indisputable that Hitler was vegetarian at the end of his life, and my support for moving him out of the "disputed" section (which was actually undertaken by Dead Mary is the proper response to new evidence. Using outdated sources as you are doing to push a position that has since been proven to be factually wrong is POV pushing, agenda driven, and dishonest! Betty Logan (talk) 13:21, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Betty Logan you did not address any of the facts i put froth regarding those two new developments. Woelk testimony is actually prove of the dispute, as Hitler probably did ate broth even after 1942. The 2017 exam do not show trace of all animal parts - the abstention of is the core part of vegetarianism - and even if it was it's only evidence for a couple of months before death. So no way near proof that can resolve this dispute. Now before we continue i request you act civil and stop accusing and smearing. This makes it harder to resolve this issue and reach an agreement.Mateo (talk) 13:32, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

You haven't put forward any facts. Any objective person who is not immune to reason and evidence can see that Woelk's testimony backed up by the forensic evidence from last year conclude the dispute in favor of Hitler being vegetarian. Nobody has challenged this new evidence, except you, using books written prior to 2013, and one of them from 1973! Betty Logan (talk) 13:42, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes i have. Hitler ate meat until 1938 and probably ate Broth well after 1942, although disliking it. In addition he was also forced to eat animal parts for health reasons up until his end. These testimonial evidence came from Hitler's secretary and his dietitian. Do any have evidence that not only contradict but actually disprove these fact? If not then Hitler's definition as a vegetarian is clearly still under dispute. Just like it's dishonest by activists to remove him from this article, acting for the claim that the dispute is a done deal is not so far from it. Because of the sensitivity of the matter I sincerely request you to put leave it in dispute, at least until it's clear that Hitler was or was not a vegetarian. Mateo (talk) 13:58, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

The fact that Hitler ate meat up to 1937 has no bearing on the discussion. That is not under dispute. Most people on this list ate meat at some point in their life. Should we chuck off Paul and Linda McCartney because they weren't lifelong vegetarians? The fact remains that Hitler became vegetarian by the end of his life. And even if Hitler's chef did occasionally slip some animal broth into Hitler's meals against without Hitler's knowledge and against his express wishes (as outlined at Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism) that does not mean he ceased being vegetarian! Vegetarian products are sometimes contaminated by meat lines in food production but that does not mean that the vegetarians who consume them suddenly stop being vegetarian. You are creating a double standard especially for Hitler. Your editing is not neutral! Betty Logan (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

"Should we chuck off Paul and Linda McCartney because they weren't lifelong vegetarians?". No, but if they occasionally eat parts of animals - due to ideological or health reasons - then of course they should not be in the same list as definite vegetarians. I return to Albert Einstein case, that expressed support not only to vegetarian but for a vegan diet but probably practiced it just a short amount of time and could not endure due to health reasons. Quite funny addressing Hitler and Einstein in the same category, but it seems this is the case.Mateo (talk) 14:27, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

RfC about Hitler being a vegetarian

An editor keeps moving the Hitler entry from the main list to the "disputed vegetarians" section, typified by this edit. I took the dispute to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Disputing Hitler's vegetarianism, but there was only a single impartial response and the other party does not believe this constitutes a consensus. Therefore I have started this RFC to establish whether Hitler be added to disputed vegetarian section or remain in the vegetarian section? Betty Logan (talk) 10:30, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Background

Main article: Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism

The background to the "Was Hitler vegetarian?" debate is convoluted, but I will try to outline the issue as best as I can:

• pre-WW2: Hitler was known to eat meat. Dione Lucas, a chef at a restaurant Hitler patronised before the war, stated that stuffed squab was Hitler's favourite dish. Nobody has ever disputed that Hitler did indeed consume meat.
• 1937: Ilse Hess commented that Hitler had ceased eating all meat by 1937 except for liver dumplings. Nobody disputes that Hitler did indeed dramatically reduce his meat intake.
• 1942: In January 1942, Hitler declares himself to be vegetarian. Nobody disputes the authenticity of this declaration, but they do dispute what it actually meant i.e. could Hitler have adopted a semi-vegetarian diet (a diet that reduces its meat component but is still not fully vegetarian), or did he become a full vegetarian?
• Further facts: Traudl Junge (Hitler's personal secretary from 1942 onwards) commented that Hitler ""always avoided meat"" but his chef would occasionally slip animal broth into Hitler's soup without Hitler's knowledge. Hitler's doctor also administered a series of injections which contained animal derivatives. Betty Logan (talk) 10:30, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Disputed

For a long while it has been disputed whether Hitler ever was a vegetarian or not. The authenticity of Hitler's vegetarianism was first questioned by Robert Payne (author) in his biography The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler (1973). The vegetarian advocacy author Rynn Berry referenced multiple accounts of Hitler eating meat before the war in his book Hitler: Neither Vegetarian Nor Animal Lover (2004). Mainstream historians have been more circumspect on the issue, maintaining that Hitler practiced some form of vegetarianism. Given the hotly contested viewpoints, until 2013 Hitler was included in the "disputed" section of the article. Betty Logan (talk) 10:30, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Recent developments

There have been two major developments in the last five years:

• 2013: Margot Wölk, a woman who was forced to be Hitler's food taster at the Wolf's Lair from 1942, was tracked down. Wolk recalled Hitler's vegetarian diet, stating that "There was no meat and I do not remember any fish."
• 2017: French scientists undertook a forensic examination of Hitler's remains. They found no traces of meat in the tartar on Hitler's teeth.

Wolk's testimony more or less closed the debate with even vegetarian advocacy groups conceding that Hitler was vegetarian. Following Wolk's testimony we moved Hitler to the main vegetarian list where he has been for the last five years. Betty Logan (talk) 10:21, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• Vegetarian I think Hitler should be included on the main list. Most of my points are covered above at #Hitler as a disputed vegetarian, but I will recap them here to limit the amount of reading editors have to undertake. I would recommend reading Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism first though:

1. Wolk's testimony and the results of the forensic investigation are very compelling and end this debate IMO. Even if Wolk forgot the odd wurst, the lack of any trace of meat in the tartar on his teeth completely confirms her testimony. This is testimony from somebody with an intimate knowledge of what Hitler ate corroborated by forensic evidence. If we are not going to accept this as evidence then what would we accept?
2. While you could argue that Hitler consumed animal broth occasionally due to his chef's deception, this in itself does not revoke somebody's vegetarian credentials. Vegetarianism is a dietary choice. Vegetarian products are sometimes contaminated by meat lines during production, but when such incidents occur this does not make the thousands of vegetarians who consume these products suddenly not vegetarian. When I became vegetarian many years ago I did not realize that some cheeses were not vegetarian, but I don't consider myself not vegetarian for that period.
3. Hitler was given injections, some of which contained animal components. It is not clear if Hitler was aware of what they contained but I don't consider it relevant. Hitler was a vegetarian, not a vegan, and even vegans sometimes make exceptions for medication.
4. Most challenges to the view of Hitler being a vegetarian draw on accounts of him eating meat prior to the war. This is significant because Hitler only became a full vegetarian some time between 1938 and 1941.
5. New facts change the nature of the dispute per WP:AGE MATTERS. The Hitler entry was moved back to the "disputed" section using a source from 1973. This is disingenuous IMO because it ignores the new evidence. To my knowledge there have been no serious challenges to either Wolk or the findings of the forensic examination.
6. That fact that Hitler wasn't vegetarian his whole life isn't relevant. Most vegetarians aren't born into the vegetarian lifestyle and make that choice down the line. Most people included on this list haven't been vegetarian their whole lives, and some have been vegetarian even less time that Hitler. There shouldn't be a higher inclusion threshold for Hitler.

Despite claims to the contrary I believe I have been very objective in regard to this issue. Hitler has always been a target on this page, and up until 2013 I repeatedly restored the entry to the "disputed" section, because that is where I honestly believed he should be given the evidence at the time. Since 2013, however, I have favored full inclusion because the evidence for Hitler's vegetarianism has built up to an undeniable level. Betty Logan (talk) 10:21, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

• Disputed Vegetarian. I do not argue Hitler was not Vegetarian, but that it's clear fact that there is a dispute on the matter, where many argue that he was not.

1. There is a book dedicated to show that Hitler was not a vegetarian, written by Rynn Berry who is considered an authority on what vegetarianism is. One of his strongest claims were that it is impossible to view Hitler as a vegetarian when he acted against organizations promoting vegetarian diet.
2. The most prominent biographer of Hitler that dealt with the dictator's relationship with vegetarianism agrees with that claim. Robert Payne argues the whole "Hitler is vegetarian" argument was a propaganda tool to promote a compassionate image to the ruthless furer. Another biographer of Hitler, Thomas Fuchs, agrees he can't be considered a vegetarian.
3. It is also important to note that we are discussing what should be defined as "a vegetarian above all dispute". Albert Einstein is on the disputed list although he probably did adhered a vegetarian diet and practice it for some time in his life. But it was for a short period time in his life, and was inconsistent due to health reasons. The same can be argued regarding the case in front of us.
4. It is undisputed that Hitler was not a vegetarian for most of his adult like, and up until the start of the second world war. According to multiple sources he ate meat until 1938, and probably ate Broth and meat fat well after 1942, although disliking it. In addition he was also forced to eat animal parts for health reasons up until his end. These testimonial evidence came from Hitler's secretary and his dietitian.
5. While it's undisputed that one can't be vegetarian and eat broth and meat fat the other party claims Hitler ate it against his will. They even go on saying his cook "slipped" the fat to his food without him knowing or against his dictation. Remembering we are discussing the most ruthless dictator who ever lived, this is an absurd argument. If he ate the meat fat he is not a vegetarian. But since we rely here on collaborators and anecdotal testimony it seems best to view it as part of a dispute.
6. The tester testimony should be viewed the same way. Relying on a memory of a women in her 90's regarding details of events that took place 70 years ago, in a world war situation, when this person is either held captive (and can't know what is being put in her food) or collaborating with the nazis, should not be the way to go about settling a much discussed dispute. For example, she says there was no meat but that she does not remember weather there was fish. here's an example of an elaborated opinion that looks unbiased, considers the tester's testimony and still concludes Hitler was probably not a vegetarian. Again this shows the dispute is on going.
7. The party arguing that there is not dispute regarding Hitler's eating habits should put forth evidences that not only contradict but actually disprove the reasonable possibility that Hitler's diet included either broth, meat fat or even fish. If not then Hitler's definition as a vegetarian is clearly still under dispute.
8. Finally, it's important to set the record straight regarding the history of this dispute. So up until 2013 there were many cases of people moving the dictator off the list altogether, arguing Hitler was not a vegetarian, and others restoring him to the disputed section. The first time i found someone moved the dictator from the disputed was [in june 2013]. The edit summery claimed that all the "major biographies" say he is. As pointed above, at least two prominent biographers of Hitler that dealt with this matter actually claims the opposite.
9. Secondly, it never reached consensus. In 2014 alone this edit was reverted at least 5 tims. [[1]] [2] [[3]] [[4]]. The last one added some sources and created a large debate on the matter, and these cases continued [[5]] over the years.
10. So unlike the other parties representation of events, the current situation of the article relies on an inaccurate fact, never got to a consensus and was kept that way while being disputed in the biographies of Hitler and consistently in Wikipedia. It is the other party that never established consensus on the matter, and kept reverting this article, thus creating a quasi-status-quo.
11. Thus i ask to keep Hitler's case in it's original status quo, as the sum of evidence clearly shows Hitler's vegetarian diet and practice is heavily disputed.
12. Finally I would like to add that I welcome this debate and state that I will accept any outcome, so long as the other party would do the same.

With much respect to the Wikipedia process,

12:07, 16 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mateo (talk • contribs)

Discussion

• @Betty Logan: - I'm of two minds here. I certainly agree that most if not all contemporary historians who cover Hitler agree he practiced some form of a Vegetarian diet. Per my own POV I'd see him as some sort of vegetarian (even if his cook slipped him something or if he did or didn't do something adhered to by "modern vegetarians"). My issue is that looking at some later sources (and none of these are great) - it seems that post 2014 this is still being disputed by some - e.g. this vegan claiming this is in doubt, this anthrozoologist questioning the extent/consistency, and Norman Ohler (author of "Blitzed") claiming he wasn't since " he mainlined pigs’ liver extracts and swallowed capsules filled with bulls’ testicles". My question - is how do we define disputed? It is obvious to me that at the least some advocates are disputing his vegetarian status (to large extent on "what is a veterinarian?" grounds). So how do we define disputed? How do we define vegetarian for inclusion in the list? Icewhiz (talk) 12:02, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz i thank you for going to the heart of the matter. I believe that we should include a person on the list in regards to the total sum of data that is out there on his case. If we have only his own testimony then we assume good faith. But if it is disputed, and in Hitler's case it is so by many, then it should go to the disputed section. The core of this argument is that Wikipedia is not here to settle ideological debates and vote on "who won". This creates a very bad editing culture, and unfortunately it happened here. It's much better and less time consuming to present a full picture of evidence to the reader, and classify it as accurately as possible. Since there is a dispute regarding Hitler and there is a list of disputed case, it is actually a simple matter to judge what classification is more accurate. 12:17, 16 October 2018 (UTC)