Talk:Luceafărul (poem)

Interesting edits

I want to apologize again, Fred Zepelin, for the insulting remarks I made about your first edits on this article. I want to thank you for continuing to edit it, you are obviously improving it greatly -- and by acknowledging that the Ștefănescu source actually exists, and that it has been quoted at least partly correctly by a relatively intelligent editor such as myself. You have now proceeded to critically investigate other citations from this and other sources, as here -- this is very good stuff, because a filter is often needed on what your relatively intelligent colleagues can read in the sources; they obviously can be wrong about stuff, and you obviously can be very right.

Some would argue that such edits to correct the text are somewhat cosmetic. For instance, some would argue that reading "famous as the only Eminescu biopic" as necessarily meaning that the film is famous (and not that this biopic aspect is its only claim to fame) is a tad unreasonable; but I for one view it as an outstanding contribution, which clarifies an important issue that would have otherwise gone completely unnoticed.

I must acknowledge that I am a tad puzzled by your other edit: you changed "Ștefănescu noted that, by 2015, Hyperion was perhaps more famous than his creator, like Hamlet is to William Shakespeare" to "Eminescu's fame was rivaled by that of his creation Hyperion, as Hamlet is to William Shakespeare." In your edit summary, you note: "source seems to imply mostly equal fame, not more famous". This is a very astute observation, once you read one phrase on the article (the first one), and no other phrase, such as for instance the ones right after it. What we have in the source (again, big thank you for acknowledging that the source actually exists!) is: Shakespeare este concurat ca notorietate de Hamlet. Cervantes – de don Quijote. Numai un scriitor de geniu poate crea un personaj care să ajungă mai cunoscut decât el. Eminescu este concurat şi el de un personaj al său, luceafărul din poemul cu acelaşi titlu.

A relatively intelligent editor such as myself awaits clarification on this topic: how should one read that succession of phrases, containing the clause mai cunoscut decât el, as illuminated by your edit summary ("mostly equal fame, not more famous")? I will therefore revert this one edit of yours, until further clarification, from you and any other speakers of Romanian who are more-than-relatively intelligent, as to what Ștefănescu meant, and how I should read phrases in my native language. Cheers. Dahn (talk) 05:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Perhaps the comment above comes off an unnecessarily snarky. To highlight the point of the (minor) content dispute, which I hope gets an answer:

The full quote from the source is: Shakespeare este concurat ca notorietate de Hamlet. Cervantes – de don Quijote. Numai un scriitor de geniu poate crea un personaj care să ajungă mai cunoscut decât el. Eminescu este concurat şi el de un personaj al său, luceafărul din poemul cu acelaşi titlu. The third phrase contains the clause: mai cunoscut decât el.

The quote unambiguously argues that the source views Hyperion as more famous than Eminescu. The contention here is that the source was misquoted (simply put: that I misquoted it). This replaces a previous contention, which was that the source does not exist (simply put: that I invented it).

Is my reading of the source still disputed? If yes, please explain by whom and on what grounds.Thank you. Dahn (talk) 17:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I have read both sources. Regarding Fred Zepelin's second edit [1], this is technically correct: 5. Exista un singur film despre viata lui Mihai Eminescu, Luceafarul, regizat de Emil Loteanu, si aparut in anul 1987. is everything that is said, and "that this biopic aspect is its only claim to fame" is not verifiable using this source, not even indirectly. I would favor Fred's version here.

Regarding the first edit [2], Dahn's version is the correct one as he showed above. I favor Dahn's version here.

So yeah, the dispute is settled and the article should be kept as is, and this section should not get any further messages. By the way, it's worth nothing Fred Zepelin is also a Romanian-speaker [3]. Super Ψ Dro 10:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Super. Fred Zepelin (talk) 03:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• Super Dromaeosaurus: In your assessment above, you clearly state, as relates to the Ștefănescu/Shakespeare/Hamlet citation: "Dahn's version is the correct one as he showed above. I favor Dahn's version here." Yet the other editor has since returned with a revert, arguing that you have endorsed his vaguer wording. I will note again that the other editor originally argued that the source itself does not exist, or that the quote has been fabricated (it really is up for interpretation which of the two was being suggested). Can I ask that you please look into what is going on here? Dahn (talk) 13:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
• Also, if we are now in fact commenting on this section, I will clarify that the Loteanu biopic wording was merely a turn-of-phrase, meant to fuse the text in with other info already in there. It was not meant to suggest that the film is especially famous, but simply to suggest that the source notes it for being the only Eminescu biopic. The wording was perhaps bad, but it was not meant to attribute to the source claims that the source does not make, and I regard this reading as an attempt at poisoning the well, suggesting that I am advancing WP:OR. I did not object to the rephrasing of that tidbid, nor did I view it as absolutely necessary. I do however view as somewhat laughable that I'm being suspected of purposefully tweaking this article in general, and in particular to promote a Moldovan film from the 1980s; whoever cannot picture how I would not come up with the perfect wording for one or two or even 40 out of 10000 tidbits in an article of this scope has possibly never spent time editing content on this scale. On the other hand, whoever implicitly accuses me of fabricating quotes and references should back up that implication. Dahn (talk) 13:29, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi Fred Zepelin, as Dahn notes I expressed support for this version [4]. Dahn's wording of the information in the source regarding Hyperion's fame is the most accurate one while yours regarding that of the biopic is the most accurate one. Regarding the former you can see in the source [5] the opening sentence: Shakespeare este concurat ca notorietate de Hamlet. Cervantes – de don Quijote. Numai un scriitor de geniu poate crea un personaj care să ajungă mai cunoscut decât el. Word by word translation: "Shakespeare is rivaled in notoriety by Hamlet. Cervantes – by Don Quixote. Only a genius writer can create a character who becomes more famous than himself." The second phrase is clearly about Eminescu and Luceafărul per the source's title and scope. So again, things should remain as they are following Dahn's latest revert.

Worth mentioning that Ștefănescu seems to be saying that while Shakespeare and Cervantes are perhaps as known as their works, Eminescu went one level above being the only genius writer who managed to write a work more famous than himself. Currently this article equates the cases of Eminescu and Shakespeare (like Hamlet is to William Shakespeare.). Super Ψ Dro 14:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC)