Talk:Persians

Iranian and Persian

There is usually a recurring discussion about the use of the words Iranian and Persian. I think there should be some consistency with the instances where the words Persian or Iranian are used. The section on Terminology is useful and clear, however, when we continue in the article we see Iranian and Persian used interchangeably, moreover, if we are speaking about Persians (as in persians vs. medes) there is no way to clearly specify if individuals referred to as persians are Iranianss or specifically Persians. There has been a lot of mixture of blood between all the ethnicities in modern and ancient Iran and unless there is a consistent way of treating the two labels, we will end up misusing both of these words. I think whatever is decided on needs to be clearly explained in the article so others can use the same rules.

Some issues to consider are that the country has always been called Iran and never Persia (as stated in the article), that "Iranian" will exclude many Persians and "Persian" will exclude many Iranians. Many of the people who consider themselves persians in countries other than Iran might also not be ethnically persian, although they have the same language and culture (just like some Iranians). In the end, the article should respect all of these people and realize that in the end, we are talking about people who have very much in common and respecting this sense of unity and at the same time diversity is important.

Definite —Preceding undated comment added 00:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

[interjected] I am confused by the concept of non-Iranian Persians you are introducing above. It is either wrong or I am missing something. Could you please give some concrete examples of people who consider themselves non-Iranian Persians? --bahman (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

[...] many Western sources [..] will label many non-Persian Iranians as Persians, which distinguishes nationality, not necessarily the Persian ethnic group.Also, many others who embraced the Persian language and culture are also often referred to as Persian, not necessarily meaning ethnic group, but rather as a part of Persian civilization (culturally and linguistically).

I think it's not clear to the reader when the article is speaking of the Persian ethnicity and when it is referring to people who embraced the culture (which includes all of Iranians and some non-Iranians). I also just read in wikipedia that even Cyrus was half Persian and half Mede, so now when we are talking about kiarostami or behbahani, are we using persian to mean they are ethnically fully persian? I believe there should also be more consistency between all of the pages relating to Iran, Persia, Iranian women, Persian empire, Persian people, etc. Finally, I recommend including a link to the "Iran naming dispute." It's very informative and I believe unbiased. If someone were to simply try to find out the right labels, the articles would each point the reader to a different direction. I believe the most useful pages are Iran naming dispute and Iran. --Definite 05:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Behbahani and Kiarostami are indeed persian for the simple fact that they are seen as persian by Kurds, Azeris etc (example:[1]). Persian is not a genetic/ethnic groups as Kurd are Azeri are. It is more a linguistic/cultural groups who is identified by other ethnic groups in the region as an "ethnic group". Sina Kardar 20:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I know about the fact that westeners use too often persian instead of Iranian, but the scope of this article is the Persian ethnic group. Or better said the ethnic Fars people. I am also opposed to group the Tajiks and Farswians into the same group. Articles about ethnic group, discuss always a clearcut ethnic group. Only with this article we have always difficulties due to the name confusion and that everyone sees it differently. Part of the problem are the Iranian-American community. It is unfortunate that the Iranian-Americans are not eager to use the correct term Iranian and use instead Persian every where. --Babakexorramdin 08:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The distinction between Persian and Iranian is a frequent cause for confusion in western European countries and USA. What follows is a hopefully objective attempt to clear the confusion. It may help to remember a general rule applicable to naming of all countries and not just Iran: how a country x is called in country y is a feature of country y's language. As an example, There is no confusion between United Kingdom and England for UK citizens - the former includes the latter, but also Wales and Scotland. Across the channel and on the European continent, however, UK is routinely referred to as England. Another good example is Germany, called so in English speaking countries and Allemagne in France. Again, this is not a mistake. Germans and Allemands were distinct people who, with others, constituted a nation called by its own citizens Deutschland. The names given by the British and French correspond, in each case, to the specific people with whom British and French were in most in contact. The German case is very similar to that of Iran; Iran is the historic name given to the grouping of many different people, each with their own names and having in common shared geography, interests and religious beliefs and having together created the first Iranian state around 3000 years ago. Historic inscriptions by Iranian kings talked about Iran, as the nation, and listed Iranian people who were the constituents of this nations. They further distinguished between Iranians (i.e., those people who shared a common real or imagined ancestry and race) and Aniran (i.e., the others). The former included Persians, Scythes, Mazenderanis, Medes, Parths, Azeris, etc.). Aniran referred to people of non-Iranian origins: Babylonians, Armenians, Egyptians, etc.

Therefore the historic distinction between Persian and Iranian was clear and well understand: the former was a distinct component of the latter, in the same sense that English are British but not all British are English. This distinction is still valid today: Azaris, Kurds, Mazenderanis, Khorasanis, Sistanis, Baluchestanis, Khuzestanis, etc., all consider themselves Iranians rather than Persians. The principle reason for confusion in west is due to a mistaken interpretation of the role of language in defining identity in Iran. Most Iranians speak two languages: the national language, Persian, and their own, regional, language. The regional language are distinct and not understood by people of other regions. All Iranians are highly to attached and proud of their dual regional-national identities. The Persian majority - non-Persian minority schema often referred to by western media is a misunderstanding, since there is no such thing as a Persian majority. Alongside with Azari, Kurdish and Arabic speakers there are distinct regional languages and identities in each of Iran's provinces.

The second question often raised in West is the correct name for the country: Iran or Persia. The answer for Iranians is simple: their country is Iran and the name is as old as the first unified state created by Medes 3000 years ago. Persian is the name of the national language. It does not, as sometimes mistakenly believed outside Iran, get its name from a majority people. Persian, the national language, is an evolution of the Iranian language spoken in Northwest of Iran at the time of Arab invasion in 7th century. It was adopted as the national language as Iran become independent again. For non-Iranians, how they call Iran is, strictly speaking, their own choice. In the same way that Germany is called by different historic names in different countries Iran can be called Persia or Iran or any other historic name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bahman (talk • contribs) 17:58, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Reading the texts above, it is clear we need to distinguish between two things:

- Persian/Iranian distinction in Iranian history, e.g., the example above of Cyrus the Great. He was indeed half Mede and half Persian; but to him and people of his period Persian meant belonging to the Pars group of Iranian people, who had settled in South of Iran. - Persian/Iranian distinction used in English. In this case Persian usually means Iranians who speak Persian, or a close dialect of it. This would include most of the people in North East and centre of Iran. To make things really congusing, Persian language is not an evolution of the language spoken by old Persians as in the previous case. Modern Persian language is an evolution of the Iranian language spoken in North Eastof Iran and brought to Iran by the Parthians. It is for this reason that today the purest form of Persian, i.e., the one with the least foreign word usage, is spoken in Khorasan, Tajikestan and North-West Afghanistan. With the revival or Iranian as national language around two centuries after the Arab invasion it was logical that the language which came to dominate was the one of North East, since this was the first region to be liberated from Arab rulers. --bahman (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

" Calling the land Persia or Iran depends on to whom you are writing. If the readers of the article are non Persian speaking people, Persia is more correct since the global name of the land was Persia until the last century. If you write the article with Persian speaking people in mind, than Iranian is the most correct term, since Iranians have been calling themselves and their land Iranian since the beginning of time. Persian can refer to Persian speaking people or people from the Iranian province of Pars/ Fars. Although it must be known that the province was originally much larger than what it currently is, and also included many other provinces such as Khoozestan/ Khuzestan and other provinces. The Iran which we know today is a smaller version of Iran Zamin/ Greater Iran which used to have "current" Iran as it's centre and Eastern Iraq, Afghanistan and Tajikistan as part of the land, not as a colony or empire, but as additional provinces. What current Iran is and during the beginning and it's growth also was, is a united land made out of two Aryan tribes, the Persians and the Medes, these were brought together by Cyrus the Great/ Kourosh-e Bozorg, who was half Mede and half Persian, thus the land of Iran was fully established. The concept or idea of Iran as a unifying land amongst other Aryan tribes or ethnic groups was strengthened by the later Parthians and Sassanids and even the Saffavids. "--خرمدین۸۹ (talk) 19:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Though I know that in the old days Persia and Iran might have been the same, I agree that today there are many non-Iranian Persians. I am, for instance, one. So are the majority of people in Tajikistan. And I am sure there are more such people also in other countries. Reading the article with "Iranians" and "Persians" used interchangeably really creates a confusion, as "Iranians" today is mostly associated with the geopolitical territory that Iran holds today, while Persia (or old Iran) had different borders and they have changed since significantly. I think the term needs to be really clarified, as the article does give an impression to the reader that Persia is today's Iran only.

--RukhShona (talk) 09:28, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Ethnic?

We should refrain from calling Persians an ethnic group. Persians are too mixed to be considered anything close to that. The main factor determining who is Persian and who is not is language. Shervink 13:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

The term ethnic may give the wrong impression, but it doesn't mean Persian is not an ethnic group. Just like how many if not all Jews see them selves as an ethnic group (ethno-religious), Persian can be seen as an ethnic group in the sense of an ethno-linguistical group --Rayis 14:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Some Jews identify themselves as a race separate from Caucasians, and nearly all Jews identify with Israel. Let me clarify that while employed at a prestigious American College I personally witnessed a few Jewish students explicitly articulate they are of the Jewish Race. Not all Jewish students identified themselves as being of the Jewish Race. These students may very well be a minority, but there are enough Jewish students that identified themselves as being of a different race to be noteworthy. Anti-Jewish bigots have also labeled Jews as a different Race in furtherance of racist causes. I am not a bigot, and think it is appropriate to disclose first-hand accounts in Wikipedia discussions so that editors may conduct their own research and incorporate independent findings that are later included in Wikipedia articles. My comment is merely a first-hand account of student responses and no disrespect what-so-ever intended. παράδοξος 04:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Persians are a fairly distinct ethnic group, related by common ancestry. All Persians do not share a common language, and the distinction is made. Persians can be of different religions and are geographically dispersed, much like Slavs. Jews consider themselves a distinct ethnic group, which is interesting because of the diaspora from Israel to Africa, Asia, and Europe thousands of years ago and a partial Jewish assimilation of their respective resident countries. παράδοξος 05:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Friends, if this article doesn't even mention the race or ethnicity question, it's very inadequate. No matter the result of the above questions, at least a mention of the varying hypotheses (and there are many) and explanations should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.91.100 (talk) 07:41, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The acope of this article is the ethnic group called Fars in Iran and is translated into persian in English. there are a lot of names' confuison. But still I think it should have been discussed the ethnic Fars, which I see is poorly done in many occasions here. --Babakexorramdin 08:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the article 'Persian identity' lacks ALL validity and is written for propoganda purposes, it is dening the existence of Irans largest ethnic group. There is no such thing a 'Persian identity' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danz23 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

You are confusing articles. Please see Persian-speakers of Iran. Tajik (talk) 14:25, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I have never met a person from Iran who referred to themselves as Iranian - always Persian. Usually they are quite adamant about it. it's strange to see the article say that most call themselves Iranian, as I have not found that to be even remotely true. It seems the ethnicity of most Iranians is Caucasian, but that doesn't make clear someone from Iran versus someone from Europe. Perhaps Caucasian is too broad? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.20.141.187 (talk) 20:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

" Calling the land Persia or Iran depends on to whom you are writing. If the readers of the article are non Persian speaking people, Persia is more correct since the global name of the land was Persia until the last century. If you write the article with Persian speaking people in mind, than Iranian is the most correct term, since Iranians have been calling themselves and their land Iranian since the beginning of time. Persian can refer to Persian speaking people or people from the Iranian province of Pars/ Fars. Although it must be known that the province was originally much larger than what it currently is, and also included many other provinces such as Khoozestan/ Khuzestan and other provinces. The Iran which we know today is a smaller version of Iran Zamin/ Greater Iran which used to have "current" Iran as it's centre and Eastern Iraq, Afghanistan and Tajikistan as part of the land, not as a colony or empire, but as additional provinces. What current Iran is and during the beginning and it's growth also was, is a united land made out of two Aryan tribes, the Persians and the Medes, these were brought together by Cyrus the Great/ Kourosh-e Bozorg, who was half Mede and half Persian, thus the land of Iran was fully established. The concept or idea of Iran as a unifying land amongst other Aryan tribes or ethnic groups was strengthened by the later Parthians and Sassanids and even the Saffavids. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by خرمدین۸۹ (talk • contribs) 19:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Caucasian is race, not ethnicity (some of can be ethnically Chinese, Kazakh, Korean, but will be Asian by race, same way someone can be Iranian, Tajik ethnically, but all Caucasian by race). As for the term Persian, it is not only Iranians, Tajiks and Afghans, for instance were also part of Persia (geographically, politically) and Tajiks still identify themselves as descendants of the great Persia. --RukhShona (talk) 09:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

"Persian" is an unknown ethnic term in contemporary Iran

Indeed , such [ethnic] divisions as Persian or Turk(Azeri) in Iran is not in common contemporary use . The local identity of Iranians are now mostly based on the geographical location of individual and not by language . That means if you ask some one about his ethnic identity , he will answer I'm from Isfahan ( Isfahani ) , Mashadi , Tabrizi and etc; and not " I'm Persian " . So I think it's better to mention on text , that many Iranians are not aware of lingual-race ethnic identity , but geographical identity instead .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

To add from the Wikipage Ethnic group:

"Ethnic identity is also marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits"

In Iran , the most important figure in grouping people is cultural (including religious) and racial-linguistic differences is often is not important(or even understood).
As a result I think the whole article needs a re-write for mentioning the fact that the term Persian is a historic term now not in contemporary use ... --Alborz Fallah (talk) 05:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

www.PersiansAreNotArabs.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.9.229 (talk) 02:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Definition of "Persian people" is politically motivated

Look, guys, you cannot treat the "Persian people" as a group of various peoples solely related through language (face it, that's the quintessence of the first paragraph) and, at the same time, define the English as "The English (from Old English: Englisc) are a nation and ethnic group native to England, who speak English."

The English are ethnically no more diverse or unique than the Persians. NUMEROUS people around the world use English as their mother tongue, but are not of English descent (blacks, Hong Kong, etc.). So why do you treat the Mongol Hazaras as Persians (while EVERY Persian KNOWS that they are not of Persian origin) just to make your unjustified linguistic point and, at the same time, do not use the same standards on the English?

Come on, re-edit that introduction and write "Persian preople are the main inhabitants of Iran and one of the major Iranian races that settled in the Iranian cultural area from around 1200 BC". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.217.170.205 (talk) 14:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

" I fully agree with SineBot, I add to his example of English people being the only English people in the world although a minority amongst the English speaking peoples in the world. In Iran and of all Persian speaking countries in the world, Persians (ethnic Persians and Iranians) though being the majority, many for instance Afghan Hazara's and Pashtuns know themselves as Persian, though they just are part of the Persian speaking world. Pasthuns speaking Persian as a second mother tongue and Hazara's (with their origins considered to be in Mongolia) having replaced their previous language with that of Persian. Equal to Latin America speaking Spanish or Portuguese. "--خرمدین۸۹ (talk) 19:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

---

Since you mentioned the English people, I though I'd take the leading sentence for the article English people :

The English (from Old English: Englisc) are a nation and ethnic group native to England, who speak English.

— English people

The current first sentence of the lead on this article, states as follows:

The Persian people are defined by the use of the Persian language as their mother tongue.

— Persian people

Therefore, if you would like to make the leading sentence on this article, similar to the one on English people, perhaps changing the leading sentence on this article to

The Persian people are an ethnic group native to Iran, who speak the Persian language.

— Possible leading sentence for Persian people.

Mr.TrustWorthy----Got Something to Tell Me? 04:11, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't work. The "Persians" were a nomadic tribe who lived some 2500 years ago. The current "Persians" of Iran only derive their name from those Persians (or to be precise: they derive the name from the Persian Empires which derived their names from the ancient Persians), but are themselves of diverse backgrounds. Tajik, for example, is just another name for this group. Even in Safavid Iran, the common designation of Persian-speakers was "Tajik" and not "Persian" (see the informative article in Encyclopaedia Iranica). Hazara is the name given to a whole bunch of people in Afghanistan: those who may look Mongolian, those who are Shia by faith, those who claim descent from Hazara tribes, those who are from so-called Hazara provinces (Hazarajat), etc. By definition, the Hazara are a "Persian-speaking Iranian people", and that is also the definition of a "Persian". Tajik (talk) 08:59, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

" Excuse me, but the name/ word/ term Tajik given to Persians during Safavid time functioned as a foul word, used mostly by Turks to insult Persians. (Michael Axworthy - A history of Iran: Empire of the mind) "--خرمدین۸۹ (talk) 19:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

There is an article for Persian-speakers of Iran;

but there are also two other articles: Persian people and Iranian people which deal with the exact same peoples. would not it be better if we could merge the latter two? Ellipi (talk) 12:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

No, Iranian people include Kurds, Balochs, Pashtuns, ..., but this page does not include them. Alefbe (talk) 20:35, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, I just saw it. Why this page does not include Kurds, Pashtuns Baluchs etc? Are not they Persians? Ellipi (talk) 16:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Persians are the group of people that originated from Persis. The other ethnic groups originated from different places, and have thier own article about them. Warrior4321 16:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The article gives no sources for defination of Persians. Ellipi (talk) 17:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

“ Starting around 550 BCE, from the region of Persis in southern Iran, encompassing the present Fars province, the ancient Persians spread their language and culture to other parts of the Iranian plateau through conquest and assimilated local Iranic and non-Iranic groups over time. ”

Warrior4321 17:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

But this gives us nothing about an existing separate ethnic Persian group. Ellipi (talk) 17:09, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Lead sentence change

Why does the lead sentence state the Persian people are people whose mother tongue is Persian. Shouldn't the lead sentence state that the Persian people are an ethic group of people who originated from Persis? Warrior4321 21:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

No. "Persians" are those who are native speakers of the Persian language. Scholastic encyclopedias, such as the Encyclopaedia of Islam, do not even have an article "Persians". They only mention the Persian language, Persian culture, and the Persian Empires. Tajik (talk) 21:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The third line states that they "started" or originated from Persis. I am not asking to add the line, but to rather move the third sentence (a line already in the article) as the lead sentence. Warrior4321 21:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that the sentence is work. The Persian language originated in Fars, but the Persian people - as speakers of the language - are an eclectic people with many different origins. In fact, modern standard Persian (after the ISlamic conquest) developed in Central Asia and found its way back to Western Iran due to the expansion of the Ghaznavid and Seljuq empires that patronized Persian. Tajik (talk) 17:47, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Persia was surperior to greece

I object to the sentence "The artistic heritage of Persia is eclectic and includes major contributions from both east and west. Persian art borrowed heavily from the indigenous Elamite civilization and Mesopotamia and later from Hellenism (as can be seen with statues from the Greek period)" Obviously it was the inferior Greeks who stole from Persia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.64.245.140 (talk) 14:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Now, you are just exaggerating. The Helenistic art is totally different from the Persian art. What is Persian art anyway? if you mean the Iranians Arts, I can imagine that maybe the Greeks were introduced to some Persian musical instruments, but it is impossible for me to imagine that Iranians were superior in sculpting and architecture. That's impossible. However, the Iranian culture at the time was a conglomerate of the cultures they ruled, so maybe those other cultures did influence the Greek style of arts. For your information, I am a Persian Iranian writing this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.183.124.223 (talk) 20:02, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Rename to "Persians"

Unlike English people, Turkish people, and French people, Persians are almost never referred to as "Persian people" in any serious written work; to name an article "Persian people" is an utter joke. This article should be renamed to "Persians" for the same reason these ethnic groups are named "*s":

• Russians
• Armenians
• Bosniaks
• Romanians
• Albanians
• Germans
• Greeks
• about a billion others

The term "Persian people" sounds awkward, and is never used. It has 300,000 hits on google (most of which are copies of Wikipedia pages) while "Persians" has almost 4,000,000 hits. 174.18.4.14 (talk) 17:22, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

" I agree fully "--خرمدین۸۹ (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that, Persian has always been a LANGUAGE. The term Persian referring to the the people of Persia is totally a western nomenclature and nobody in Iran used that (Then again, this is an English Encyclopedia). Prior to 1900s if you told an Iranian about "Fars" as a people nobody would understand you. The people of Iran have been mixed from the very start, the persian language being the lingua franca among them, in fact nobody ever referred to himself as a "Parsi" after the achaemedian period. So this is a problem lying within the English language and we as the People of Iran have unfortunately become involved with this recently which is the reason for many arguments between kurds, azeri lurs and persian speaking people.20:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.183.56.203 (talk)

RV

I have reverted User:R1000R1000. He has been asked a few times to use the talkpage first. So far, he is ignoring the requests. Tajik (talk) 23:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately I see a lot of Pan Turkish influence in the Wikipedia to erase the term Persian or Pars from the Persian history , first of all the term Pars is an Indo Iranian term used by the Achaemenids ,King Darius I in Behistun inscription , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription "I am a Persian ,son of a Persian ,an Aryan having Aryan lineage" Darius I in the Suez inscription

http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DZ.html

xâmanišiya \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ XŠ \ adam \ Pârsa \ amiy \ hacâ \ Pâ rsâ \ Mudrâyam \ agarbâyam \ adam \ niyaštâyam \ imâm \ yauviyâ m \ katanaiy \ hacâ \ Pirâva \ nâma \ rauta \ tya \ Mudrâyaiy \ danuvatiy \ ab iy \ draya \ tya \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ aitiy \ pasâva \ iyam \ yauviyâ \ akaniya \ avathâ \ yathâ \ adam \ niyaštâyam \ utâ \ nâva \ âyatâ \ hacâ \ Mudrâ yâ \ tara \ imâm \ yauviyâm \ abiy \ Pârsam \ avathâ \ yathâ \ mâm \ kâma\ âha

King Darius says: I am a Persian; setting out from Persia, I conquered Egypt.[1] I ordered to dig this canal from the river that is called Nile [2] and flows in Egypt, to the sea that begins in Persia. Therefore, when this canal had been dug as I had ordered, ships went from Egypt through this canal to Persia, as I had intended.

Clarity

This article makes it extremely unclear that the term "Persian" is often used synonymously "Iranian", and that the article they are probably looking for when they type in "Persian" is really Persian-speakers of Iran. In fact there was absolutely no mention of or link to the article "Persian-speakers of Iran" (until my addition [2]) which is utterly ridiculous. Immakingthisaccounttohidemyipaddress (talk) 06:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Political constructed article must be redone

This article violated the guidelines of wikipedia in regards of reliable published thirld party sources, neutral point of view and no original research.

This article it is a marauder, it is a robber, it is robbing the Persian people of everything; Their identity, legacy, heritage and their connection to their homeland.

It clearly denies the existence of an separate Persian ethnicity and is entirely political motivated to ease separatism and Irredentism intentions by spreading misinformation and falsehoods. This is done mainly by lumping together two separate articles.

1) An article about Persians people which is undeniable a distinct ethnic group.

2) An Article about speakers of Farsi (Is such an article even needed when one exists about Farsi, this is obviously an SCHEME to create confusion?

No ethnic group in the world can be described as 'supra-ethnic group', Supra-ethnic means non-existent. Ethnic groups are by definition of ethnicity defined by common heritage, common identity, common culture, common history and speaking the same language does not create an ethnicity. According to the 2007 report by the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, an estimated 115 million African people spread across 31 Francophone African countries can speak French as either a first or a second language, does that mean that those Africans are French?

And the Persian people share no common ethnic identity with Hazaras or the Tajiks, they are clearly considered Afghan foreigners in Iran.

There is no reliable third party publication that uses the term Persian to denote either Hazaras nor Tajiks and there is no thirld party publication that denotes the Persian ethnicity as a supra-ethnic group, that is to deny their existence, but plenty or sources that describe Persians as a distinct ethnic group such as the CIA fact book, the Joshua project, The UNHCR and countless Iranian publications.

A plenthora of other arguments have been used by the separatists to deny, water down and confuse the definition of the term Persian, all are grasping for straws, and when you refute one claim their always put forwards several new ones.

Articles that describe ethnic groups are politically sensible and must therefore be put under editing restrictions. Political interest groups tend to push for their own viewpoint; this article has been manipulated beyond belief and has made wikipedia into a tool for ethnocide against one the oldest and largest ethnic groups of the middle east: the Persian people.

I have put a lost of time and effort to once for all correct this article that was previously misinforming and totally incomprehensible. The decription is now correct but changes need to be made to the infobox which is obviously wrong. Persians do not number 48 million, the infobox must be corrected. And the article 'Persian speakers of Iran' need deleting.

Danz23 (talk) 08:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

This page is about the Persian people as an ethnolinguistic group. This ethnolinguistic group can be also divided in smaller ethnic groups in the same way that Arabs can be divided to smaller ethnic groups with different sub-cultures. Also you should learn to obey Wikipedia rules and for deleting a page you should go WP:AfD, instead of making this page a redundant copy of that page and asking admins to protect it in your favor. Alefbe (talk) 19:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Edit war

Hello there. I have protected this page so that editors stop reverting each other on the article, and use this talk page to reach a consensus on the structure. Please remember to remain civil and keep calm. Thanks. GedUK  14:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Before locking the page, you should have looked at those IDs who started the edit war. Four of them are banned for sock-puppetry and you have locked the page in favor of them. Locking the page in this kind of situation is just helping the trolls. Alefbe (talk) 19:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, in the case that you haven't already noticed, you have locked the page on a version which is a redundant copy of Persian-speakers of Iran. As you can read from the comments of the user who as asked you to protect the page, he wants to delete this page and move Persian-speakers of Iran to this title. For doing that, he should go to WP:AfD, but instead, he has chosen to disrupt this page and then ask for protecting it on his version and you have done it. Alefbe (talk) 19:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I have not locked the page in favour of anyone, as the template says, the current version is NOT an endorsement. Yes, i know users have been blocked, but the edit war has continued. Throwing insinuations around despite me just asking you to be civil is NOT the way to progress any argument on here. GedUK  20:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

So, now you claim that my comment here is uncivil? interesting. Alefbe (talk) 20:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Dear Ged UK, I have to concur that the protection was premature and undue, as the edits/reverts made by the obvious sock-puppets and against them, should had been disregarded as enforcement of Wikipedia policy, not an edit-war. Also, the last revert to the same banned users/sock-puppets by another WP:SPA who also requested the protection of the page, should had been automatically reverted per Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Enforcement_by_reverting_edits. As it is, the page, in it current state, violates various core policies of Wikipedia. Please reconsider your decision and unlock the page --Kurdo777 (talk) 08:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I will ask another admin to review the protection at RFPP.

To Alefbe, I asked that you remain calm and civil, and the first comments you make are to accuse me of siding with Danz23 and protecting on his version, and you've also attacked him by saying he's run to the admins to get the page protected how he wants it. So yes, I do think you aren't being as civil as you could be. Don't attack, in any way, other editors, and focus on the content issue. GedUK  08:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

---

Right decision was made

I think that the right decision have been made. Clearly the issue was an editing war resulting from the fact that different editors can not agree on the content. The intention should be to end the editing war and bring the editor to the discussion table so a consensus can be reached in a FREE climate of debate, using arguments and logics instead of socket puppets, bots.

I have previously tried to share my concerns with other editor and contributed several times to The talk page but all of my concerns and complains has fallen on def ears and all my changes have quickly been undone with thuggish methods so I felt that requesting editing restrictions was the only way to create space for debate.

This article has been tagged for POV, unverified claims and original research in since As early as april 2009. Still there has existed no willingness to resolve the issues by Debate and arguments, it is clear that an edit protection is needed.

My concerns is that this article violated three outmost important principles of No original research, neutral point of view and verifiability. The whole premise Of the article in its previous conception was to commit ethnocide against on The largest and oldest ethnic groups of the Middle East by diluting and watering down the clarity of their ethnic designation.

This was done mostly by making unverified claims such as;

• “Numerous dialects and regional identities emerged over time”,

• “The Persian peoples emerged as an eclectic collection of groups with the Persian language being the main shared legacy”.

And also by exploiting the fact that various dialect of the Persian language is spoken by several ethnic groups, thus claiming that Persians are an ethnolingustic group but ethnicity must can never be considered by criteria of language alone, there are numerous ethnic groups who share the same language with some variations but do not belong to the same ethnic collective.

Other parameters must be considered too such as; Identity, genetic heritage, history, culture. According to the 2007 report by the Organisatin Internationale de la Francophonie, an estimated 115 million African people spreak across 21 Francophone African countries can speak French as either a first or a second language. But no thirld party publications considers those Africans as ethnically French.

All sources that contradict this scheme been ignored or suppressed, that Fact That Persians are a distinct ethnic group is an undeniable fact confirmed by sources Such as the CIA factbook, the Joshua project, UNHCR (Who do not designate Tajik or Hazara refugees in Iran as Persians) and countless other Iranian publications.

I believe that this scheme is being perpetuated to push the separatist political agenda I don not think that the purpose of Wikipedia is to be tool for ethnocide to further political Interests and I strongly believe that this is happening. I can also add that I am far from the only individual that has complained about the content, but the concerns of other user have often been ignored.

I also believe that the article 'Persian speakers of Iran’ is basically a shorter version of the this article in this previous form and created in order to push for the views that couldn’t be expressed in this article. Wikipedia has a special name for this and I believe that this too is unlawful: Only one article should exist concerning the same topic; There can exist only one article about: the ‘United states of America ‘or ‘Barack Obama’. You can not create a second article about Barack Obama using a slightly different name if you don’t like the content in the current article. I have therefore suggested that the article 'Persian speakers of Iran' should be deleted.

Thanks for creating a space for dialouge and debate and stopping the tuggish edit wars. Danz23 (talk) 10:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Danz is completely wrong on this issue. The article was factual and very informative before. Danz has simply turned into nationalistic none sense. I ask that the administrators please unlock the article so that we can undue the changes. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to air out ones nationalistic concerns.

Danz, Persian is not simply an ethnic group in Iran, Persians are all over Asia, from the Caucasus to Central Asia to the Arabian peninsula. Iran's modern day borders do not define who Persians are and who they arent, remember that Iran used to be a far bigger nation.Kalifo (talk) 20:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Kalifo I think that you need to review the policies of Wikipedia about POV, original research and third party publications. we must differentiate fact from opinions. The existence of a Persian ethnicity is an undisputed fact acknowledged by countless publications. Denying a fact a thousand times doesn't make it true. Wikipedia can not be turned into a tool for genocide in order to push for the political interests of the editors. The premise of the previous article was clearly to dilute and water down the peoplehood of the Persian people which is clearly ethnocide; this too is for most neutral observers very apparent.

Danz23 (talk) 00:06, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I've decided to unprotect the article in light of 2nd opinion at RPP. HOWEVER, I will remind all editors of the WP:3RR, and edit-warring. If I feel that the edit war is starting again, editors breaking 3RR etc, I WILL protect the article again. GedUK  21:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that it is a good idea to unlock the article as no consensus has yet been reached. And I don't think that several parties will respect the practice of reaching consensus on the talk page.

Danz23 (talk) 00:06, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Reaching consensus

I strongly believe that we should stop reediting each others contributions and agree instead discuss the subject of the content here.

I believe as I have stated earlier that the tenants of the article in its previous conception built on unverified and false claims and were contradictory to third party publications such the CIA Factbook, the UNHCR and the Joshua project.

The main function of the article was to deny, distort and dilute the ethnic designation of the Persian people by making a series of unverified claims and exploiting the fact that the Persian language was used by several different ethnic groups while Persians like many ethnic groups are not an ethno-linguistic group as their native tongue is not used exclusively by them. Other non ethno-linguistic groups include the Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, French and the English. Other factors must be weighed in when considering the collective identity of those groups such as culture, heritage and identity.

Some of the unverified claims included:

• “The Persian peoples emerged as an eclectic collection of groups with the Persian language being the main shared legacy”

• “Numerous dialects and regional identities emerged over time”

I think that the main thing we have to agree on is the distinctive Persian ethnicity which in my view is undeniable.

We should be able to agree that the articles content should NOT dilude, distort, falsify this by making false claims using wessel words or including other ethnic groups in this designation, ethnic groups who have their own article contesting this claim.

Finally I would like to bring your attention to the UN Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous peoples which states:

Article 7

1. Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right not to be subjected to ethnocide and cultural genocide, including prevention of and redress for: (a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples or of their cultural values or '’’ethnic identities’’’.

I truly hope that wikpedia isn't turned into a tool for ethnic genocide just to push the separatist agendas.

Danz23 (talk) 00:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

To delete this page, you need to go WP:AfD (instead of disrupting this page and making it a redundant copy of Persian-speakers of Iran). Repeating your argument here doesn't help you. Alefbe (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Danz, you are misunderstanding the topic of this article. Arabs are not all ethnic arabs, Turks are not all ethnic turks, and Persians are not all ethnic Persians. Persians today are a mix of many people, just like most peoples of the world! Hazara's are of Mongol descendant but they speak Persian and share Persian culture, are you going to say they arent Persian? Azari's for example, have a language that is heavily influenced by Turkic (infact it is mostly Turkic today) but Azari's are not ethnic Turks.

Do you get it now? There is no agenda here, we are discussing basic facts!

The article clearly says at the top:

'This article is about Persian-speaking people including those found in Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and other neighboring countries. For in-depth information about Persian-speakers in Iran, see Persian-speakers of Iran. For Central Asian Persians, see Tājik people. "Persians" redirects here. For the Athenian tragedy by Aeschylus, see The Persians. For other uses, see Persian people (disambiguation).

You are no more Persian than I am, and neither of us are anymore Persian than a Tajik (which simply is the name for Persian's in Central Asia). You have to remember that Iran was much larger than it is today, influenced a lot of other peoples as it was influenced itself. Persian being the major language of the region was adopted by many people over many centuries.Kalifo (talk) 01:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

--

Obviously the good faith shown by GedUk have failed to meet its purpose immediately as I predicted it would and the article was reverted instantly without due time for all parties to be heard and a consensus reached this is the most frightening part.

I have stated my arguments over and over again. The tenants of the article is self contradictive in several ways (the most obvious beign that the aforementioned groups have their own article that refutes the claims made in this article)and builds on unverifiable statements and point of views which violate the policies of Wikipedia. The basic tenants of an article can not be built on falsehoods.

This article is not about ‘Persian speaker of Iran’ although that claim is made to create confusion. Persian speakers of Iran would include almost all the peoples of Iran and would not concern either Persian ethnicity, identity or history. The article is simply about diluting the Persian ethnic identity by lumping Tajiks and Hazaras into the article

I reject the notion of ‘Persian speakers of Iran’ or other nations as the subject is perfectly covered by the article about Persian language and there is were any contribution in such regards should be made.

And I also strongly oppose the notion that no Persian people ethnicity exists and see all such claims as ethnocide. I think that all discussion should be concentrated of the content on this article, NOT other subjects. Danz23 (talk) 02:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The Persian ethnicity certainly does exist, there are about 60 million ethnic Persians in Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and other places. On top of that, including those that could be considered ethnic Persians, there are many more Persian speakers.

Hazara's, are not ethnic Persians, but they are Persians culturally, linguistically, and historically. Thus, they are included in the article.

For example, Azari's are not ethnic Turks, but they are Turkic linguistically, thus they are included as a Turkic people. Another example would be the English monarchy, who infact had their ethnic origins in France, but are nevertheless English by all standards. You are confusing the meaning of this article.

The definition of Persian is not what you claim it to be, it is much broader, because Persian has been one of the few cultures that influenced a huge area of the planet. Its just not that simple. Hazara's are descendants of Mongols but culturally, linguistically, historically, they are just as much Persian as you and I.

You want to make the claim that Persians are only those people who are in Iran. But you have to realize that Iran's boundaries today are a product of it losing much of its land throughout history. Much of Iraq used to be Persian (linguistically and ethnically until it because Arabicized), much of Afghanistan is still today Persian, although it may not be within the boundary of Iran (we lost these lands to the Russians and British). Tajik is the Turkish word which simply describes Central Asia Persians. There were many Iranic and Persian kingdoms in Central Asia.

Iran's boundaries today do not determine which people can be considered Persian and which cant. Iran's borders used to include much of Central Asia, the Middle East, and the Caucasus. You are looking at this in a very narrow viewpoint. Herat, for example, is one of the historic Persian cities of the past several centuries, it is today located in Afghanistan, and has a very rich Persian culture and tradition.

As a matter of fact, Tajik's are probably the most pure Persians left in the world, as, they probably more isolated from other peoples historically.Kalifo (talk) 20:47, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

enough is enough

Thank you Danz23, you're right this is a daylight robbery This article is a wikiIran project ,it was created before 2007 and has nothing to do with afghanistan. persian-speakers of iran was created in late 2008 but now is being used by certain people as a political smoke screen to conceal the truth and mislead people. The definition, Persian People = An ethnic group native to iran who speak Farsi or Persian. I could provide you so many refrences. Tajik people and Hazara people are Dari or Dari speakers of Afghanistan, with their own articles dedicated to themselves. I've noticed they [I know who] want to merge Dari language page with persian language article, another crafty move ....... This article is being hijacked and manipulated continuously by user called Alefbe and his other 2 buddies. I've seen the tricks used in this channel recently ie manipulating refrences, redirecting articles and writing propaganda statements in the articles such as persian people, enough is enough.--Owen3050 (talk) 19:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

So true You are right User:Owen3050, one can repeat a lie thousands of times but it will remain a lie. They will not get away violating basic Wikipedia guidelines to push their political agenda. We must change the content in a way consistent with reliable third party publications and facts but this must be done using discussion, debate, providing sources and not further edit warring or sucketpuppery, this article has been tagged since april of 2009. There is little doubt to anyone familiar with Iran or the criteria’s of ethnicity that there in fact exists a distinctive Persian ethnicity that does not include Tajiks, Hazaras or any other group. http://www.PersiansAreNotArabs.com

Danz23 (talk) 10:16, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Including Iranian peoples who speak Persian language like Tajiks as "Persians" is absolutely correct, but Hazars who are ethnic Mongols is not. I dont understand which is the purpose of Wikipedia if uneducated people like Danz can edit it... Very sad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.61.141 (talk) 05:25, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Hazaras are not ethnic Mongols. Comprising 10-20% of the population, the Hazaras are largely descendants of the native Persian-speaking population. But unlike others, they have a much stronger Mongolic (East Central Asian) influence - there are Hazaras who look very Mediterranean. On the other side, there Tajiks and Pashtuns who look very much "like Mongols". Tajik (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Update Population Stats

Friends, the statistics given on this page and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_citizens_abroad are inconsistent (taking into account the difference between Iranian and Persian) and there either outdated or completely unreliable. I'll try and find a better source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 04:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The population stats from Afghanistan only contains the Tajiks/Farsiwan, but not Hazaras. That should be corrected. Tajik (talk) 13:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 114.76.90.75, 13 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} hazara are not persians. they are of mongol descent. please delete the 'hazara' mention next to australia persian number on right hand side of page.

114.76.90.75 (talk) 11:04, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Reference please? CTJF83 pride 17:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- /DeltaQuad|Notify Me\ 19:09, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Persian people=Iranian People

I don't see the difference!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.191.229.194 (talk) 19:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Persian people are different from the Tajik people

Persian people are part of the people of Iran and the Tajik people who live in Afghanistan and Tajikistan are different. Tajik people spoke Persian, but they consider themselves Tajiks. Iran and other places, they also called Tajik. Mohsen Abdollahi (talk) 12:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

That is simply not true. "Tajik" is just another word for "Persian". In fact, until the rise of the Pahlawi dynasty in Iran, "Tajik" was the common designation of Persian-speakers in Iran. The Persian ethno-linguistic group is a large and eclectic population, very similar to Germans or Arabs, for example. There may be significant differences in culture or speech based on the geographical location, but they all have the same core of culture, language, literature, etc. There are even significant differences within the modern nation-states. The speech and culture of Khuzistan is different from that of Tehran, Yazd or Mashhad. The same goes to the people of Herat, Mazar, Bamiyan or Kabul, or to the people of Samarqand, Sughd and Ferghana. And that is exactly what this article is trying to explain, as it is supposed to do. As for Hazaras: they are largely descendants of the local Persian-speaking population, however with a much larger Mongolian impact and influence. But that does not mean that they are not "Persians", because "Persianness" is not solely based on genetics. If that were true, than most "Persians" of today would be no "Persians" because of the extreme Arabic, Assyrian, Turkic and other influences. To understand the "Persianness" of Hazaras, you should start with this video. Tajik (talk) 10:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The Tajiks do not feel or define themselves as Persians!--77.177.45.209 (talk) 01:03, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

This is not true! Tajiks (at least on Tajikistan's part)identify themselves not only with Persians but as well with Iran. If you ever read ANY book of Tajik classic literature, you would see the same poets, the same scientists are praised as the national pride. The same history is shared. The same language is spoken. The same script was used in Tajikistan until Soviet Union. Rudaki and Ferdawsi are the founders of Tajik literature. And, if you look at the map of Alexander the great's conquest of Persia, while only a part of Afghanistan is in Persia, Tajikistan is almost COMPLETELY a part of it. The BC Balkh - last Persian province to fall to Alexander - was on the territory of the current Tajikistan. Now, if Tajiks and may be other nations (people) would NOT identify themselves as Persians, I believe this article would not be discussed so heavily. And I don't see a reason why acknowledging other people's belonging to the term Persian somehow makes Persian a non-existent ethnicity.

Comparison with "English" does not make sense here, comparison with British is more appropriate, as "English" - if referred to as people of England - is a term covering smaller area than the term "British", which covers the people who belong to Great Britain. Persia, on the other hand, is not a small province, it is not the name of a country today - it is the name of a whole Empire, and descendants of that empire are Persians. Now Scottish people probably identify themselves different from English. But they are both British.

From what I've understood ethnic Persians only make up 51% of the Iranian Population. This article needs serious restructuring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.24.44.220 (talk) 04:22, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Separate articles

Someone shared an opinion here, why not leave the term Persian to Iranians, as those other nations have their own articles. Well, speaking of that, there are articles named "Iran", Demographics of Iran" and "Peoples of Iran". Excluding other nations (of the same inherited ethnicity!) is discriminatory and illogical: Why decrease the greatness of Persia?! --RukhShona (talk) 10:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Persians in Afghanistan

Why is the number at 17 million in Afghanistan? Whether we use the 50% estimate (speakers of Persian language), 27% (Tajiks) or 40% (Tajiks, Hazaras & Aimaks) from CIA Factbook, it won't add up to 17 million. 50% = 14.5 million, 40% = 11.6 million and 27% = 7.9 million of Afghanistan's population. The number was at 11 million before it was bumped to 17 million by User:Tajik. (Ketabtoon (talk) 05:33, 11 January 2011 (UTC))

Afghans are not Persians

This article makes me and every iranian laugh, because in this article Afghans are considered persians.But i want the editor and changer of the article to know that we iranians never accept this, and you afghans can never be part of us even if you change articles in wikipedia.Afghans are tajiks, tajiks are descendants of the bactrians and sogdians, not persians.persians or iranians are aryans who together with t wo other branches of aryans, parthians and medes entered iran.but tajiks are bactrians and sogdians mixed with mongols, appearent in their physical look.the bactrians and sogdians mixed with yuezhe and mongols.they are not persians.and you (changer of the original article) should know that persian is a synonym of iranian.so persian means iranian.tajiks are name of iranic speaking people in central asia.even the east iranic speaking people in china who speak langauge related to pashto, are called tajiks and tajiks of china.so tajik does not mean persian, it means iranic speaking people in central asia.we persians in iran have never been called tajiks and we are not.we persians or iranians are aryans and has nothing to do with afghans. The article of tajiks should be recreated and every word that contains afghan in this article should be removed. and again hazara are 100% descendants of mongol warrior changiz khan, they are not persians together with their brothers tajiks.tajik (afghan) and persian (iranian) are different.the words afghan should be removed.thank you.--Escoperloit (talk) 09:30, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

This is not a place for OR or making condescending comments. To answer your question: Old Persians, Medes, Bactrians, Parthians, Sogdians and etc..were basically no more in the later Islamic era (well Sogdhians were there by adopted Persian eventually except in Pamir regions). You just have a vast range of Iranian speakers who are combined descendant of these and were considered Persian/Iranian(used basically as synonms) and by outsiders as Ajam, Tats, Tajiks. So the term Tajik was equivalent to Persian from that era till now. Also like all people in the region, Iranic people have assimilated non-Iranic speakers into their ethnic group. For example, Arabs in Morroco are not the probably the same DNA as Arabs in Iraq, but they are Arabs. The equivalence of Persian and Iranic is mentioned in the article, but I will move it up. Please stop making comments that are not academic. Thanks--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:58, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

• in this case then Iranians should not claim that Rumi, Firdawsi, or Avicenna were Iranians. Avicenna was born near Bukhara - the state of Samanids (Tajiks), Firdawsi lived in the state of Samanids and initially wrote his Epic Shahname for the Samanid shah. Rumi was born in the area which is now around Tajikistan's Wakhsh. Then these people have nothing to do with Iran. RukhShona89.217.82.238 (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

dont insult ferdowsi and iranian by calling ferdowsi an Afghan

Ferdowsi was, is and will be an iranian.ferdowsi was born and died in present day iran and his tomb is also in iran.ferdowsi is the father of iranian nationalism.in fact the words: iran and iranian are mentioned more than 1500 times in shahnameh, the national epic of iran.some stupid wannabe-iranian people claim that the place names and personal names mentioned in shahnameh by ferdowsi are located outside iran, what a funny joke and how stupid these people are, one of the most important places mentioned in shahnameh is damavand, and the mountain range in iran alborz is also mentioned, damavand and alborz are located around tehran.one another word is esfahan or sepahan, another is mazandaran, another is gilan, another is gorgan, another is shiraz, another is azarbaijan or azarabadegan, other words mentioned in shahnameh related to iran is kord, baluch and lor. the name of fars region in iran is mentioned more than thousand times in shahnameh.zabolestan or zabol are mentioned in shahnameh which are located in present day southeast iran the city of zabol and the region is named sistan.sistan is also mentioned.birjand is mentioned as city in present day khorasan iran.if some places mnetioned in shahnameh are located in present day Afghanistan does not make ferdowsi an Afghan, because turan is also mentioned in shahnameh, turan is the turkic speaking world in shahnameh and are present day central asian nations and if this is logic so ferdowsi was also a turk because he mentioned turan in his work.the city of zibad present day gonabad in present day razavi khorasan is mentioned in shahnameh.the city of tamisheh near gorgan is mentioned in shahnameh. the iranian flag during the sassanids (derafshe kaviani) is mentioned and praised in shahnameh.the iranian hero arash from mazandaran, the iranian tahmoures. the iranian hero sohrab from zabul (sistan) in iran, the iranian hero rostam from zabul (iran), the iranian hero kaveh from esfahan, the iranian hero fereydoun from tehran (rey), the iranian real hero rostam farrokhzad, irans commander in chief during the sassanids war with arabs, the iranian persian sassanid doctor bozorgmehr, the iranian persian aryan hero ardeshir founder of the sassanids, the iranian gudarz, the iranian ashkan founder of the ashkanian dynasty. the iranian king cyrus is mentioned in the name of kiumars, and the iranian king dariush is mentioned in the name of dara. the iranian siavash and siamak and bijan, the iranian king jamshid, the iranian abtin, the iranian manuchehr, the iranian babak, the iranian esfandiar, the iranian brothers iraj (king of iran) and touraj, the iranian kianian and pishdadian dynasties, these are all mentioned in shahnameh.the name hindustan (india) is mentioned in shahnameh,if this is logic, so ferdowsi was an indian which he was not.china is also mentioned. so please dont insult ferdowsi and iranians and persians and aryans by calling him an Afghan.ferdowsi was equally an aryan, a fars, a persian and an iranian from tus, present day mashhad county in khorasan in iran.

shahnameh is national epic of iran and iranian, not Afghans.please dont insult us iranians.--Nautilyus (talk) 10:58, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Afghanistan is not khorasan

khorasan was a name created by parthian and sassanid persians to the northeastern region of iran which was populated by parthians, the region of the parthians was bounded in the east by herat in present day Afghanistan, so Afghans were not parthians, Afghans were sogdians and bactrians, later mixed with the tocharians, indo european people from china, and later mixed with the mongols.later the name khorasan was refered to other parts which were in the eastern part of persian empire.but now these regions are separated from iran, and are not and not called khorasan anymore.true khorasan was parthia of ancient times and now the three khorasans southern northern and razavi in present day iran.--Nautilyus (talk) 10:58, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Afghans are not aryans

Afghans are tocharians, from china and mongolia.we iranian are not from the same race as you.for the first time in history 3000 years before hitler and the indo european concept, iranians and hindis of india called the aryans, and now iranians (persians) and northern, central and western indians (hindi speakers and dialects) are descendants from the aryans, appearent in their physical appearence.go to search on google Afghan and know how an Afghan looks, is'nt it funny to call an Afghan aryan? a brazilian and a nigerian is more aryan than an Afghan.

before leaving their original homeland in siberia, aryans migrated to india, and to present day iran, the the tribes who entered iran were medes who created the first aryan state, medes were in northwestern, western and central iran, their largest city was rey (tehran) and ecbatana (hamadan).the persians migrated to south and founded persian empire, achaemenids and sassanids and parthians settled in north eastern iran, in gorgan and khorasan, exactly inside the boundaries of present day iran.--Nautilyus (talk) 10:58, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Persian and Indian people should not be seperated then

This article is kind of strange. I mean for example, Persian and Indian people , at least from North India, are the same people. They are of Aryan ancestory. Before the arrival of Islam, Persian and Indian people were a united people following Hinduism. When Islam came, they were still the same people. Even today they are the same people. But the difference is, after Islam came in the region, as time went on, they kind of seperated. But even when they seperated, they still have historical and cultural ties. So the point im making is that this article is kind of wrong because they give persian history as a seperate identity from Indian people and its kind of strange.....i mean....its kind of like saying......Americans and Canadians are not the same people. They are. But in time they kind of seperated. But still they have historical and cultural links then. 71.106.83.19 (talk) 01:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Population Update

According to CIA World Factbook, Iran's population is 77,891,220 (July 2011 est.). So population for Iran and total population must update: Iran: 39,724,000-50,629,000 or 45,176,000-50,629,000 total: 78 to 82 million.

Also see Statistical Centre of Iran (SCI): 75,197,000 http://www.amar.org.ir/default.aspx?tabid=52 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.159.132.255 (talk) 05:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Improvements Checklist

I have made the following improvements to this article:

I have expanded it including only the highest quality sources, almost all of which are cited through Google books. I have removed dubious terminologies, and tried to keep the discussion as authentic to the original text as I humanly could; you may check them against their mother sources (check the quote against its book) and critque me or change it as you see fit, however only if a change is warranted, meaning only to reflect on an inaccuracy. Please avoid, changing the author's quotes because "you do not like them" or because "you wanted to reword it." That is against WP:citation. I have also added new photos.

To do list (You may help please!)

Still needs considerable expansion and probably needs spell checking too, if you can pinpoint them.

We need to restructure some of the primary sources to wiki worthy status. There are sources on this page that are online websites and some of which lack credibility, even if their claim is well known and true. In these instances I think we should find other suitable or citable sources to replace the faulty sources. Those that are credible sources, are sometiems not even cited and simply present in the references as a link. I am going to try to fix them but I need help, so if you are willing, then please do and we shall more than appreciate it!

Thanks Dr. Persi (talk) 03:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Arabs and Persians

Please include the following link to the front page which clearly distinguishes between persians and arabs: Persians Are Not Arabs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.253.52.121 (talk • contribs) 05:49, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Why? is there some confusion? The article already goes into some detail about the relationship between the terms "Persian" and "Iranian". ~Amatulić (talk) 06:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

afghans are neither iranians or persians

this article should be considered for correction.in this article afghans are considered iranians while they are not iranians, and they are even not persians, persian is synonym of iranian, and even its ethnic meaning refers only to persian speakers of iran.iranic speaking people of central asia are called tajiks.they are neither iranians or persians or aryans.please fix this article.this article is wrong.--84.48.114.254 (talk) 14:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Where are Afghans considered Iranians? The article simply says that Persians can be found in Afghanistan. The claims in this article appear to be backed up by reliable sources. If you can cite reliable sources for your corrections, then please do so. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

persians can not be found in Afghanistan.persian are iranians, persian is a synonym of iranian, and the ethnic meaning of persian refers only to persian speakers of iran.persian, fars, iranian are synonyms, and hindi speakers of india and persian speakers of iran are aryans, true aryans.Afghanis are not aryans or persians or iranians or fars.they are tajiks, of mixed mongol and chinese ancestry.Afghans are NOT Persians.thats all.this is fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.114.254 (talk) 22:10, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Persian empire Parsa

The founding dynasty of the empire, the Achaemenids, and later the Sassanids, were from the southern region of Iran, Pars. The latter Parthian dynasty arose from the north. However, according to archaeological evidence found in modern day Iran in the form of cuneiforms that go back to the Achaemenid era, it is evident that the native name of Parsa (Persia) had been applied to Iran from its birth.[67][68]

The Suez inscription [Suez inscription] : King Darius says: I am a Persian; setting out from Persia, I conquered Egypt.[1] I ordered to dig this canal from the river that is called Nile [2] and flows in Egypt, to the sea that begins in Persia. Therefore, when this canal had been dug as I had ordered, ships went from Egypt through this canal to Persia, as I had intended.

xâmanišiya \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ XŠ \ adam \ Pârsa \ amiy \ hacâ \ Pâ rsâ \ Mudrâyam \ agarbâyam \ adam \ niyaštâyam \ imâm \ yauviyâ m \ katanaiy \ hacâ \ Pirâva \ nâma \ rauta \ tya \ Mudrâyaiy \ danuvatiy \ ab iy \ draya \ tya \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ aitiy \ pasâva \ iyam \ yauviyâ \ akaniya \ avathâ \ yathâ \ adam \ niyaštâyam \ utâ \ nâva \ âyatâ \ hacâ \ Mudrâ yâ \ tara \ imâm \ yauviyâm \ abiy \ Pârsam \ avathâ \ yathâ \ mâm \ kâma\ âha

Persian people (local name:پارسی , pārsi IPA: [fɒːɾˈs] are an ethnic group of Indo-Iranian people that speak the moden Persian language [Persian language]. The name Persia derives from Parsa,Persia is the Greek version of the Old-Persian name os Parsa which is the name of the Indo-European nomadic people who migrated into southern Iran—to an area then called Persis—about 1000 bce. The first written reference to the Parsa occurs in the annals of Shalmanesar II, an Assyrian king, who reigned in the 9th century bce. As the Parsa expanded their sphere of political influence, particularly under the Achaemenian dynasty (559–330 bce), the entire Iranian plateau became known as Persia; its various peoples were designated (collectively) the Persians. Subsequent rulers—including Alexander the Great, who conquered Persia in 330 bce, and the local Sāsānian dynasty (ruled 226–641 ce)—fostered cultural consolidation.

The Persian nation contains a number of tribes [...]: the Pasargadae, Maraphii, and Maspii, upon which all the other tribes are dependent. Of these, the Pasargadae are the most distinguished; they contain the clan of the Achaemenids from which spring the Perseid kings. Other tribes are the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, Germanii, all of which are attached to the soil, the remainder -the Dai, Mardi, Dropici, Sagarti, being nomadic.

[Herodotus, Histories 1.101 & 125; tr. Aubrey de Selincourt]

The Behistun inscription [Behistun inscription] is one of most valid written evidences of the history of the Aryan race, and as can be seen, Darius I (Dariush in Persian), the Achaemenian king, in the 5th century BCE, declares himself a Persian and form the Aryan race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CyrusPars (talk • contribs) 10:13, 20 May 2011 (UTC)