Talk:Pregnancy

Hormonal changes

Under the subtopic Hormonal Changes it states "Levels of progesterone and oestrogens rise continually throughout pregnancy, making the mother a huge bitch and suppressing the hypothalamic axis and subsequently the menstrual cycle. The woman and the placenta also produce many hormones." Is this a professional opinion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.130.145 (talk • contribs) 04:12, 7 April 2009

Image in the article

I'm concerned about the image used on this page. Pregnancy might be a topic a child would be researching, and I don't think it's appropriate that a nude woman is depicted on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.76.28.8 (talk) 19:38, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:41, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with the nudity per se, but there's got to be better ways of visually representing pregnancy than this one. Something with a pregnant woman, but maybe with a diagram indicating the stages of pregnancy too. If we're going to have a nude pregnant woman then at least have a decent image of her facing the camera. I think it's a crappy lead image. Lord of the Ping (talk) 00:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Surely that would upset readers who find “frontal” nudity more offensive. From a wholly practical perspective, growth in the abdomen tends to be more ventral than lateral (thus more discernible in profile). ―cobaltcigs 01:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The issue isn't really one of prurience, but one of whether it's a good photo or not. Surely if we want to depict abdominal growth, we'd want a photo without the subject covering the abdomen. Nandesuka (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Hihi, look the pictures on the article right now. Even a naked belly is controversial it seems... This is a small form of censorship. Tukka (talk) 01:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The current picture is simply a better quality photo. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Diagnosis

Are the timescales in the article statement below correct? The statement does not make sense to me. Should the statement "12 days after implantation" refer to ovulation ("12 days after ovulation")? Does this timescale refer to fertility treatment rather than normal conception? 82.9.102.35 (talk) 19:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Clinical blood and urine tests can detect pregnancy 12 days after implantation,[25] which is as early as 6 to 8 days after fertilization.

help!!!

I need a paragraph on where babies are made for my assessment revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.3.207 (talk) 10:34, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

wat is the chance of pregnancy at the 4th day of a girls mensuration cycle...

wat is the chance of pregnancy at the 4th day of a girls mensuration cycle..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.56.130.113 (talk) 09:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

This is not a forum, I suggest you take an appointment with a doctor (and improve you spelling)--Corentinoger (talk) 10:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Humans Vs the rest

English is not my first language so I'm not really sure how human-specific the word "pregnancy" is. In its current state, the article is only named "pregnancy", and then goes on assuming the female is human. If the word is not human-specific, I suggest renaming the article "human pregnancy" so a warning is not needed to differentiate from animals, and make the word "pregnancy" point to the "gestation" article directly. Of course, since most readers looking up "pregnancy" would be interested in human pregnancy anyway, the "pregnancy" link currently in the human section of "gestation" should be changed to "human pregnancy".--Corentinoger (talk) 10:50, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

What we routinely do with medical article is assume human and place a section called "In other animals" at the bottom per WP:MEDMOS Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:37, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Images again

• 
  Image 1
• 
  Image 2

Support image 1 The question is which image should we use. Image 1 is an improvement over image 2 IMO as it has better contrast with the background. Is farther along in pregnancy and thus better demonstrates pregnancy. It also has better lighting of the subject matter. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:34, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

• I think that they are both great images. I like the Image 2 the best because it shows more detail, and is photogenically better IMO (expresses the reality of pregnancy in a more emotional way.) Image 1 is good, but the clothing obstructs some of the detail. I don't believe that clothing inherently adds anything pertinent to the topic to the article. There seems to be no evidence that one image is further along that the other image, and that isn't important anyway. For instance, would an image of o woman who was pregnant, but happened to be dilating, or happened to be delivering at the moment of the image illustrate the general nature of the topic better? After all, this is the lede image, not a sub-topic illustration. The lighting seems to be comparatively identical, and the background in neither picture illustrates the topic better or worse. Atom (talk) 20:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

• Another point -- Image 2 has been in this article for a very long time. As the consensus image, it should not be changed unless there is a much better image that describes the topic available. The desire to use a different image by one or two people should not override the desire by numerous authors to leave the original image in for years. As nice as Image 1 is, if anything it obscures some small amount of detail rather than adding information or demonstrating the topic better. Why change it if it has worked for so long, and the proposed image offers less on the topic?? Atom (talk) 20:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

What detail is hidden in image one that is relevant to pregnancy? I agree that clothing does not inherently add anything but neither does nudity. Image one has been on the page a few months. But agree consensus can change. BTW here is one of the most recent discussions in Sept 2010 [1] We could craft a RfC on the topic if you wish... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:47, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

My point is that the consensus image was fine, and that the image you prefer not only removes detail, but does not have consensus by others from what I can tell. Your words try to turn that around. The consensus image should be on the article until you can establish a new consensus. Reverting back to your preferred image over the consensus image is edit warring, and not preferred. I looked at the link you provided, and indeed there are some editors who might favor your proposal, and one that did not. Hardly a consensus. I will change the image back to the consensus image until we can talk through it and sort it out. Atom (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

So I ask again "what detail is hidden"? Remember Wikipedia is based on reasoned debate. I have requested further opinions from WP:MED Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not looking for an argument. I am not proposing the the nude image be put into the article. I am asserting that the image that has long standing consensus should remain until another proposed image replaces it by some kind of documented consensus. Atom (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

In terms of the "detail" discussion you seek. If you suggest that the proposed "clothed image" offers more detail, or a better lede for the specified topic, that clearly is not the case. Which image shows the state of pregnancy better? The swelling of the breasts, the curvature and elongation of the abdominal area? The coloration and enlargement of the nipples and areola? Are these absolutely essential in the lede? No, I do not think so or assert that. But the fact that one image clearly shows those things, and the other does not is quite clear. In the image you propose, if you were to evaluate the image by removing parts of the image that are not relevant to the topic, such as the facial expression and then remove all of the blue area that is masked by the blue clothing -- what of substance is left? A general suggestion that the abdomen is distended? Clearly the nude image is superior in illustrating this topic. Atom (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I saw your polite request at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine#Image_at_pregnancy. I welcome other opinions. We should also ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sexology_and_sexuality and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikipedians_against_censorship too. Atom (talk) 22:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I like the new image. I prefer it because the subject is looking at the camera ( although that might be a little creepy to some). Lets switch it up if only for the sake of taking advantage of this whole wiki thing we've got here. Also, considering WP:BRD, the status quo's advantage isn't all that high around here Atomaton.--Tznkai (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

It isn't a status quo thing for me, it is a Wikipedia policy to follow consensus. The way that we prevent from constantly rotating images as another editor boldy expresses their preference is to discuss and reach consensus. The consensus image has been discussed a great deal in the past. Atom (talk) 05:23, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Image 2 is a poor example of potential skin changes. This is a good image [2] but do not know the copyright. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:08, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

• I'm basically okay with either image, but I like Image 1 better for the top of the article because it's less "arty" and also because it wouldn't be yet another white woman. Racial diversity in our images is a desirable goal. (BTW, File:PregnantWoman.jpg has her facing to the left, which I believe is preferable according to the MoS.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:10, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Looks a little to bright. Maybe we could flip it without the brightness change? If we go with this one I can do that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:29, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Support image 2 - No strong opinions here; however, my wife and I prefer the second image. We agree that the lack of clothing gives the reader a better look at the pregnant female. Also, consensus can certain change; however, if there is no clear community favorite determined by this discussion, I would support keeping number 2 in the article as it has been in the article "a very long time." Just some thoughts... ---My Core Competency is Competency (talk) 00:10, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Image number 1 has been in the article for the last 3 months. There where frequent complaints about image number 2. Atom's was the first concern regarding this one. We will get less vandalism with image 1. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Changing to reduce "vandalism" is not a good argument. I fix vandalism on many articles all of the time, as do others. Also, this new image being in the article for a few months, versus the consensus image not a good argument. I see no problem with "Be Bold", revert, Discuss cycle. I appreciate that you want to propose a new image. But trying to enforce a new image over a consensus image after being reverted is not appropriate. Please continue discussion, and in a few months, we can see if the consensus has changed or not. Atom (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Support Image 1 - No question this is a far better photograph. The composition and lighting aren't even comparable. One photo looks like a professional studio photograph, the other looks like an amateur snapshot. Plus the 2nd picture isn't very good at illustrating a typical pregnant woman. Most pregnant women wear clothes, at least the ones I've seen. Plus, why do we always have to illustrate medical articles with Caucasians? This is the first non-white person I've ever seen in a medical article. Regarding the censorship issue brought up by Atom, I don't see anything in this discussion that has to do with censorship. Nude images are not inherently better at illustrating humans than clothed images. In fact, I would say the opposite is true in most cases. Humans do, after all, have the strange habit of generally wearing clothes. Kaldari (talk) 01:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

"Most pregnant women wear clothes..." That's funny! The article is about pregnancy, not "clothed pregnant women some people know." Atom (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

So you would say that the majority of pregnant women typically do not wear clothes? Regardless, the first image is a huge improvement in photograph quality. Kaldari (talk) 02:46, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, the point is, which image is best for the lede. Clothing or not, which image (or some other image) best illustrates or evokes the topic? As for the first image, I am all for more diversity; But it does not illustrate pregnancy better, IMO. Atom (talk) 04:04, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Support Image 2 - this is a far better photograph. While the lighting and composition may not be so good, it illustrates pregnancy in a typical pregnant woman. It shows breast and belly changes. Mind you, it has been removed many times by prudes who are offended by the nudity. I have reverted it many times - so it appears to attract prudes and censorship. That says, I think it is much better than image 1. Gillyweed (talk) 02:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the image really shows "changes" to the breasts. We don't have a "before" picture for comparison, and this woman's "pregnancy-changed" breasts might look like some other woman's "non-pregnant" breasts. The amount of natural variation is enormous.

BTW, is there some reason we can't have both images somewhere in the article, e.g., the multiracial woman at the top, and the nude white woman at the top of ==Physiology==? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:27, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Both images show the enlargement of the breasts and belly. Indeed the first photo shows a much more pronounced enlargement of the belly than the second photo. And no one in this discussion is trying to censor nudity. You should actually read the discussion instead of making assumptions. Kaldari (talk) 02:50, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

• I also support Image 2 for many of the same reasons I outlined in a previous discussion about the same image. The original image is superior to the new photo. The original image is very descriptive of the subject, it is a dignified and beautiful picture, that to me at least, conveys a sense of warmth, of motherhood…like she’s responding to that which she carries…it’s contemplative, lovely and not at all obscene or even titillating…I think it’s just perfect for the lede. I don't see any clear consensus in the above discussions to replace the original lede image, so I agree with Atom's reversion to the original. [3]. Please find consensus for the new image. Dreadstar ☥ 03:33, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll support image 2 as well, for reasons stated by others. I've always said that in the event that a newer, better image came along, that we should use it. But I've yet to see such an image. --Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 04:50, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I researched, as I'd like to be fair. The original image (discussed here as image 2 -- nude pregnant woman) has been in the article since around December of 2006. It was moved to lede in February 2010, but then later replaced by the pregnant women in the blue dress on September 3rd 2010 by user Jmh649 with an edit "image just as good, but with clothing", and has been there since then (a little more than 3 months.) So consensus for having it in the article has been for more than four years, and in the lede for 7 months or so. When it was removed from the lede, two editors complained,

quote:

The issue isn't really one of prurience, but one of whether it's a good photo or not. Surely if we want to depict abdominal growth, we'd want a photo without the subject covering the abdomen. Nandesuka (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC) -

Hihi, look the pictures on the article right now. Even a naked belly is controversial it seems... This is a small form of censorship. Tukka (talk) 01:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Here is a discussion from March 2010 Talk:Pregnancy/Archive_3#Lede_photo discussing that image. Atom (talk) 04:54, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support image 2 I must respectfully disagree with those advocating the clothed image. We are not looking for professional photography, but for a photo which gives as much encyclopedic information as possible. The nude photo gives much more, for obvious reasons. You see the actual lines of the figure. One would hope for a before/during/after series, but at least the nude one is a step ahead. It shows what happens to the belly and breasts. I disagree with posts like "most pregnant women wear clothes." We are not trying to teach a person how to recognize a clothed pregnant woman. We are trying to show how the human body looks when pregnant, and that is obviously far better done when a nude photo is used. However, it would be much better to have a Chinese or Indian woman, since they are more representative of the human race by numbers. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 05:09, 11 December 2010 (UTC)