Talk:Rape during the Kashmir conflict

Estimates

@Problematics: Hey mate. Since you reinstated the Khurram Parvez's figure of 7,000, it turns out that that content was actually added by me initially in this edit. But later as I said in this edit, it occurred to me that his estimate might also have been misled like the ones of Amit Ranjan and Seema Kazi, as both of them misinterpreted this source - [1]. Also Khurram Parvez does not specify/clarify if he was mentioning war rapes, and more importantly, he offers no clues as to the source or basis of his calculations. Now we have no other reliable sources that give figures close to Khurram Parvez's estimate. So I don't think its constructive to have that mention in the article. Pinging @Kautilya3: if he is interested to take a look on this. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 08:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi there Tyler. I was reading Parvez's interview on Scroll.in and this is what he said;

According to our estimates of sexualised and gendered violence, there are 7,000 cases.

So this is the estimate of JKCCS in context of the conflict and not the government registration figures (which include non-war rape) quoted by Kazi and Ranjan.

This source also lends credence to that 7000 is the total of cases documented by JKCCS. Problematics (talk) 08:33, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, if they *documented* 7000 cases, then its totally fine. I will have to admit that I'm quite shocked to see such a huge number! If possible, can you dig up the corresponding content in the original report from the JKCCS site - [2]. I'm not able to find it. From the 'main report' in that link, I could only find this:

Prepared over two years, this report is a part of the continuing work to understand and analyze the role of the Indian State in Jammu and Kashmir [...]that has resulted in widespread and systematic violence including the disappearance of 8000+ persons, 70,000+ deaths, 6000+ unknown, unmarked and mass graves, and countless cases of torture and sexual violence.

Cheers, Tyler Durden (talk) 11:11, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

References

Redirected again

Found that this article is fork of an already redirected article after consensus, kindly don't recreate unless you have consensus for it. Capitals00 (talk) 15:32, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: have you read the edit summary of mine of this section? I have also notified on the noticeboard. Capitals00 (talk) 15:58, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

This is a new article created a few days ago. I never heard of anybody needing any consensus to create an aricle. What on earth are you talking about?

There is nothing in common between this article and the old Rape in Jammu and Kashmir that was merged. I don't think the old merge decision applies to this article at all.

Pinging RegentsPark for his advice. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

If you are re-creating an article that ended up getting redirected, then you need consensus to recreate it. Article at present form is just like what Rape in Jammu and Kashmir was. Capitals00 (talk) 16:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I second Kautilya. The article in the present stage is supported by dozens of reliable and scholarly sources, and has a lot of own and elaborate content, all of which cannot go into other broader articles. Also this article has been linked in several other broader articles where the overdue content was cleaned up, so now merging this to any other article would be very naive. The situations for the deletion of previous article were different, many of the editors in that forum were bothered that the article was poorly sourced and that it was small in length. (Anyways I hardly see any consensus there, I wonder how that was closed!) But that is not the case now. I think, editors of this article (including myself) have put a decent effort to bring it to an acceptable standard. And is still being worked up to get further developed. So, if you are still that interested to delete this, you may open another forum here for the editors to review the current article and decide if it should be deleted. — Tyler Durden (talk) 16:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality and clarification on 'Kashmir conflict'

See Kashmir conflict, "The Kashmir conflict is a territorial conflict primarily between India and Pakistan, having started just after the partition of India in 1947." While whole Rape in Kashmir conflict was India only. If we are going to include anything about Pakistan which is necessary since its 'Kashmir conflict', I think it would be neutral. Capitals00 (talk) 16:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. There are plenty of high-quality reliable sources that focus on India's internal conflict now, e.g., Bose, Sumantra (2003), Kashmir: Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace, Harvard University Press, ISBN 0-674-01173-2. Your contentions hold no water. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

You can look up the actual definition of "Kashmir conflict" if you want to, who has denied that they don't focus on internal conflicts of India? But it doesn't means we should be entirely ignoring Pakistan administered Kashmir. And your source from 2009 that you refer as "now" has greatly focused on Pakistan as well[3]. Capitals00 (talk) 16:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The lead of Kashmir conflict also clearly states:

The present conflict is in Kashmir Valley.

I hope that should give you an idea. And in any case, you can feel free to add any content regarding the conflict-related sexual abuse in Pakistan administered Kashmir, with significant source(s). There are hardly any reliable sources that discuss regarding that. So until you can prove otherwise, your argument that the current-state article is lacking a NPOV is baseless. --- Tyler Durden (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Article has been expanded already. Capitals00 (talk) 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Problematic editing

@Capitals00: Can you please explain this edit of yours? What on earth were you starting? The content you added in the Background section is irrelevant, its not background to this subject and is out of the scope of this article. And apart from that, all you cited was one report of sexual abuse of which no source said it was used as a weapon of war. Also BBC[4] explicitly states: This is the first alleged rape in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in which military personnel have been accused. Now how can you possibly justify inserting this in the lead? --- Tyler Durden (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't do blanket reversion of the entire edit just because a single sentence didn't fit the source, instead you had to reword it. It seems there are more than these few scholarly sources that concern Pakistan administered Kashmir. I am removing the example from as weapon of war. Would rather make separate section for Pakistan if there are sources talking about multiple cases.

Also the background does fit it, it shows that when did rape actually started to take place in this entire Kashmir conflict, as noted by reliable sources. Capitals00 (talk) 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for this edit! You finally understood. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 23:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Content was not well placed, but not useless either, I have created new section for Pakistan. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello D4iNa4, this article is specifically for covering war rape in the present post-1989 conflict in Kashmir Valley. Please add your material to Rape in Pakistan, Sectarian violence in Pakistan, Indo-Pakistani War of 1947 or other more suitable pages for your content. Thank you. Problematics (talk) 09:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, why are category:Rape in India, category:Human rights abuses in India, category:Controversies in India, but not the Pakistani equivalents? Unless of course Pakistanis are truly virtuous. WP:POV, perhaps? Jim1138 (talk) 10:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Agree with User:Jim1138 that this article is suffering with WP:Censorship. Capitals00, TylerDurden apparently agreed to include Pakistani rape violence in Kashmir, here we have over 10 reliable sources but a new SPA is censoring them. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

If you can find reliable, solid scholarly sources discussing war rape by Pakistanis inside the insurgency areas since 1990, feel welcome to add. If its not that then its not for this article. Problematics (talk) 10:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Then make such a senseless article title too, "Rape in Kashmir since 1989" and have it deleted soon. You are finding a excuse to carry on your disruptive censorship as we can see. Thus you are lacking sense. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Please refrain from WP:PERSONAL. Problematics (talk) 10:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I agreed to add the conflict-related sexual abuse in Pakistan administered Kashmir, if any.

But there are a lot of problems with the content added by D4iNa4. It clearly suffers from WP:COATRACK. Also it was again written and placed inappropriately.

The 1947 violence by Pakistani tribesmen happened in and around Baramulla, which is today Indian administered Kashmir, they were not the incidents occurred in Pakistan administered Kashmir, as the user wrote. And as I have already said, that content does not belong here. Its out of the scope of this article. Those Pakistani tribesmen atrocities are not meant to be covered in Human rights abuses in Kashmir or Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir, and apparently they are not. The same is the case with this article. Capitals00 himself removed it later, and it has to be covered in First Kashmir War and Baramulla(its duly covered in this page).

The 1970s incidents in PAK are also not related to this article. The content clearly specifies that it happened when the excessive military was deployed due to Shia-Sunni conflicts, that has got nothing to do with Kashmir conflict.

Pakistani militants have been also involved in rape of Kashmiri women and torturing of prisoners.: This line again, as per source, is talking about the violence by militants in IAK, not PAK, and it has been extensively covered in this article in an explicit section.

So again we're left with one single case of sexual abuse reported by BBC, of which I have already told, is blatantly WP:UNDUE to build content in this article.

And User:D4iNa4, kindly refrain from personal attacks and discuss only the substance. That's not at all a good practice for a responsible and rational editor of Wikipedia. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 11:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you Tyler Durden. If we stick by the article title, all the events that occurred as part of the Kashmir conflict are included. There is no time restriction. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

In answer to Jim1138, I think we have better information available for India than for Pakistan. Also, more editors interested in writing about India (including positive and negative stuff). Nevertheless, do you have a view on the issue being discussed here? Dos this article need to cover the events in Pakistan-administered Kashmir? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The article name does not appear to differentiate between the two sections, so per WP:WEIGHT, it should include Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well. Jim1138 (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

This article's lead and background specifies the context as the insurgency in Kashmir since 1989/90. The scholarly sources and media particularly discuss rape in Kashmir conflict in the context of the insurgency between security forces and militants. A lot of the content discussing Pakistan-administered Kashmir is jumbled up. The 1947 tribal rapes cannot be included since that is part of the 1947 war, just as rape during Jammu massacres cannot be fitted into this article. The events in Gilgit, rooted in sectarianism in Pakistan, already has its own page. (1988 Gilgit Massacre). It has no relation to Kashmir conflict. Problematics (talk) 11:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Jim1138 too. So, there is no time or geographical restriction. The name of the article, as chosen by its creator, covers all of the Kashmir conflict. Please focus on "Kashmiris" (all the inhabitants of Kashmir) and their trauma rather than worrying about India or Pakistan. All artificial limitations placed on the scope amount to WP:POV. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Yes, I agree too this. And in that case, out of the proposed content till now, the 1947 tribesmen atrocities alone can be included. — Tyler Durden (talk) 11:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The conflict in Kashmir which this article is seemingly covering is the post 1989 conflict. This is not just specified in the lead and background, but this is how scholarly sources discuss rape in this conflict. All rape within a particular territory and its long history does not meet the WP:DUE requirements. Please ensure that we describe a subject according to the scholarly narratives. Problematics (talk) 11:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

TylerDurden sorry but you are not seeing the fact that the source that talks about the atrocities by Pakistani forces since October 1947 talks about whole Kashmir region that was later divided as J & K, Gilgit, Azad Kashmir. There are sources[5][6] that mention their atrocities (rape, looting, lynching) in Muzaffarabad (now Pakistan), Srinagar (now India), etc. The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control. Problematics is just a disruptive SPA who is engaged in WP:CENSORSHIP. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control.:

@D4iNa4: Do you have WP:RS that support this? --- Tyler Durden (talk) 12:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

These events did not occur in the 1970s, they occurred in the 1980s, more a part of Sunni-Shia conflict than the Kashmir conflict. Problematics (talk) 12:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Until Pakistani military intervened. Capitals00 (talk) 12:29, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I am going to oppose inclusion of historical events not part of the post-1989 Kashmir insurgency. Including rapes by tribals and rapes in 1947 Jammu massacres. This will just create confusion for readers since this article is quite obviously discussing only the insurgency in Kashmir and all the article's material sourced to scholarly references related to use as weapon of war, prosecution etc is discussing Kashmir conflict as the current conflict in the Valley since 1989. I oppose any anachronisation of the article's pre-existing content. Problematics (talk) 11:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Hope you won't edit war over it. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• My two cents: Unless the sources explicitly demonstrate that the single incident in Azad Kashmir or the event in Gilgit are a result of the Kashmir conflict/insurgency, linking the two would qualify as WP:OR and uncorroborated WP:SYNTHESIS. The current title of this article suggests that this is not a general article covering rape incidents in Kashmir. Also as someone above noted, some of the events attributed to Pakistani armed groups during the 47 war didn't actually occur inside Pakistani territory. Mar4d (talk) 11:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Yet they did occurred in present day Pakistani territory, and and carried out by Pakistani forces in present day J&K too. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Your first link mentions Baramulla, which is not in Pakistani Kashmir. Also, you are synthesizing the 1947 war with the scope of this article which, as I pointed above, is problematic. Secondly, please try to avoid sources published by Vij Books. Mar4d (talk) 12:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

"The first place that the invaders attacked was Muzaffarabad town, where they looted, raped and killed many" by Oxford University book. D4iNa4 (talk) 12:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Since above consensus is clear enough to include Pakistan material, I have restored it. Capitals00 (talk) 12:29, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

No there is not, please don't cite WP:CONSENSUS. I would suggest that you refrain from performing a unilateral edit war until the questions above are resolved. There is no link between the topic of the article and the content being added. Mar4d (talk) 12:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

User:Mar4d there is consensus, D4ina4, Kautilya3, Jim1138, and Tyler Duren (partially) are in agreement to include the content. You lost the argument and the WP:POINT that you had made above, thus you can't alone surpass multiple editors. Capitals00 (talk) 12:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

First, I see no indication that all the editors named above individually approved the said content. So please don't speak for them all and violate the meaning of WP:CONSENSUS, to unilaterally edit war your preferred version in. That is not consensus, and neither have you satisfactorily answered the questions put above per WP:BURDEN. Please also take note of WP:ARBIPA regarding these articles. Mar4d (talk) 12:38, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

You claimed that you will allow including the content only if sexual abuse by Pakistani military took place in Pakistan cities, and D4 proved that they did. I don't think we need more explanation on this. Capitals00 (talk) 12:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I did not make such a claim. I said it must be demonstrated reliably that those events occurred in the Kashmir conflict. What you are doing is adding events from the 1947 Indo-Pakistani War. Please see WP:SYNTHESIS and the point about this not being a general article on rape. Mar4d (talk) 13:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Proposals

Apparently, I think, there are only two ways to resolve this issue:

• (a) Going with the title chosen by the editor, and adding the occurences of rape during Tribesmen atrocities in October 1947, 1947 Jammu massacres, Mirpur Massacre of 1947 etc in a new "History" section at the top of the article.
• (b) Changing the article's title to 'Rape in Jammu and Kashmir' 'Rape in Kashmiri insurgency'.

I support (b). And the reason for my position is (a) is apparently creating a lot of complexity and confusion. With all this mess, the objective of the article is becoming vague and diluted. And it is distracting from the work of improving this article, which was earlier happening in the first section of this talk page. — Tyler Durden (talk) 12:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I think the article should stick to the topic of rape discussed the way it is discussed in scholarly sources i.e. taking the point of conflict from 1989 onwards. For historical rapes a new page called Rape in Jammu and Kashmir should be created but this page should be left as it is as it is specifically discussing the insurgency. Problematics (talk) 12:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Support A. Otherwise, the article would end up getting redirected to Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir, just like Rape in Jammu and Kashmir was. Capitals00 (talk) 12:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• I don't believe it would. As I said here, the circumstances involved in that article and this are totally different. — Tyler Durden (talk) 12:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Alternatively, keeping the article's lead and background in mind, this page should be renamed to Rape in Kashmir Insurgency. But I prefer to use Conflict instead of insurgency because I believe that scholars use the former word in respect to the insurgency when discussing the topic of conflict rape in Kashmir. Problematics (talk) 12:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Problematics: I'm afraid, you're bringing no scholarly sources when you again and again say, "scholars use" something! — Tyler Durden (talk) 12:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh I can find plenty but there's enough which are mentioned in the article's references and bibliography itself. If you open the sources used, you will find that each discussion on rape in Kashmir focuses on rape during the insurgency. You can check each and every reference used in the article and see if historical rapes are discussed alongside insurgency rape. The former are discussed completely separately (if at all). Can you find several scholarly sources which discusses them in the same context? Especially from amongst the sources used in this article. Problematics (talk) 12:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I think suggestion (b) of Tyler Durden will also be fine. Problematics (talk) 13:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

You're missing the point of this discussion. I know scholars focus explicitly on rapes during the insurgency, i.e. after 1989, when they discuss about "Rape in Kashmir". But no scholar said rapes in history, i.e. since 1947, should not be covered when we use particularly the title "Rape in Kashmir conflict". So, the present title allows the inclusion of all the events of sexual abuse that occurred as part of the Kashmir conflict. While the article with the title "Rape in Jammu and Kashmir" can only focus and elaborate on the rapes that occurred in Indian administered Kashmir. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 13:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• @Tyler Durden: Just a question regarding the above. Would Proposal B turn it into a general article, like Rape in India? Or would its focus still very much be the conflict/insurgency? If any of it involves whitewashing the latter as some above were trying to do, then I cannot favour this proposal. Mar4d (talk) 13:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Tyler Durden, that is why I now agree to your proposal B. Historic rapes can have another article created for them, but they should not disturb the coherency of this article. Problematics (talk) 13:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Mar4d I understand your concern, I too had that. But I was hopeful since Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir did not meet that misfortune. If we want to avoid any risks, then we will have to go with "Rape in Kashmir conflict, Indian administered Kashmir", which I have to admit is obviously a lengthy and not so subtle title! — Tyler Durden (talk) 13:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, however there are several scholarly sources, as cited in this article, that use "Rape in Kashmir" as a title, to deal exclusively with the conflict-related sexual abuse in Jammu and Kashmir. So I don't think that such problem would occur. — Tyler Durden (talk) 14:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

What about the title "Rape in Kashmiri Insurgency"? Problematics (talk) 13:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes! Actually, that's a good idea. Since the lead of the Kashmiri insurgency article, with RS, clearly states:

The insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir or the Kashmiri Insurgency is a conflict between various Kashmiri separatists and nationalists sometimes known as "ultras" (extremists), and the Government of India.

— Tyler Durden (talk) 14:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

References

• A', just like what it actually is, discounting the WP:CENSOR and WP:DONTLIKE. B lacks enough sense. You can find 100s of sexual violence reports about every state in any democratic nation, therefore whole article would be WP:UNDUE. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

You can find 100s of sexual violence reports about every state in any democratic nation: not the ones widely committed by that nation's security forces and militants as a weapon of war, unless there is a conflict in that state. — Tyler Durden (talk) 15:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Time out

I think there is too much talking going on but not enough thinking. Please take a time out, go off and think about it for a couple of days, and contemplate what a reader looking at a page called Rape in Kashmir conflict expects to see. It seems that all the involved editors are focused on what they want to write about rather than what the topic is supposed to be.

If need be, we can do an RfC to find out what the general community thinks about it. But I think that, if all the ediors think about it with calmer heads, they will see the picture. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

What, according to you, would a reader looking at a page called Rape in Kashmir conflict expects to see? — Tyler Durden (talk) 14:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Rape issues in entire Kashmir, not just Pakistan and India but also China. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

China administered Kashmir? Then you would be documenting issues of sexual abuse in a region that is almost uninhabitable. — Tyler Durden (talk) 15:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Forced marriages

@Tyler Durden, By the definition of rape [7], forced marriages cannot be considered as rapes because you never know what happened after marriage was done, after some days it can happen mutually. These cases are indeed human right abuses but not rapes clearly. Owais Khursheed (Talk to me) 16:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, I understand what you're saying. But my point is, the aspect of forced marriages is pretty much closely related to the subject of 'rape in the conflict' and so let it stay here. Because please try to understand my concern, the entries which you were removing have been inserted in this article after removing them from other two-three broader articles while cleaning them up, and this article's page was linked there. So when you contest the content's deletion, it would lead to the complete omitting of those particular 'forced marriages' abuses by the militants from the Wikipedia, which is utterly naive. It brings back the dilemma of — where to add those incidents of abuse again, in which of the broader human rights abuse articles. And we'll probably see those entries once again in every broader article related to the content. Editor Problematics has perhaps realized these issues and hence relaxed with listing them separately below the incidents of rape in here. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 21:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Tyler Durden Well you can use this section for human right abuses in Kashmir, but the addition of these here is beyond the very scope of this article. We are only concerned with rapes not forced marriages. Owais Khursheed (Talk to me) 11:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Page move

@User:Capitals00, Why is it controversial to move this page, it discusses the specific topic of rape after insurgency only. so the proper name should be Rape in Kashmir Insurgency. Owais Khursheed (Talk to me) 15:43, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

You need to file WP:RM. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:44, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Reasons for the move

• Kautilya3, I agree that I am very much involved here. But I don't see why the page's move is problematic and objectionable.
• Its not like there should not be an article with title Rape in Kashmir Insurgency on Wikipedia to discuss content in that regard, of which dozens of reliable and scholarly sources are available, as cited in the article. No Wikipedia policy says such article should not exist. And no editor till now has reasonably explained why that name is inappropriate when its corresponding content has several scholarly sources that discuss the same.
• The entire article's content in the current state including the lead, all of which is well sourced, fully and clearly appropriates the title Rape in Kashmir Insurgency, more than anything.
• Much of the discussion has already taken place bringing no positive change, and as I have already said, it is greatly distracting from the work of improving this article. If any interested editor(s) really want to have a broader article to cover the entire history of sexual abuse in Kashmir conflict, they can do so by creating another article with the title Rape in Kashmir conflict. This article doesn't stop anyone from doing so, in any way. This shall just remain as a subpage for that article, if created. Same like Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir is to Human rights abuses in Kashmir.
• I had earlier totally supported adding conflict-related sexual abuse content from Pakistan administered Kashmir(PAK) also, but that idea brought no good. The article faced many disruptive edits because of it. Zero constructive contributions were made following that idea:

• First[8] the 1947 violence of tribal invasion was added in an inappropriate background section (it is a background to what in the article?), and one BBC report of a rape case[9] in PAK (where the report also said "first alleged rape in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in which military personnel have been accused") was brought and blatantly added even to the lead without considering WP:DUE weight. I explained all this on this talk page above[10]. And yet it was added again by WP:EDITWARRING.[11]
• Next[12] the 1947 tribesmen violence is added in a section named 'Pakistan Administered Kashmir' while that violence actually happened both in today's India administered Kashmir(IAK) and PAK (the major part of which took place in IAK(Baramulla), and also it is a historical event occurred when all the region was legally under one princely state of J&K, with neither IAK nor PAK technically existing). In the same edit, events that plainly occurred during a Shia-Sunni conflict in PAK, that apparently have no relation to Kashmir conflict, were brought and added. The edit also included the insertion of a line in 'Pakistan Administered Kashmir' that clearly talks about the violence of Pakistani militants in IAK. I pointed this on the talk page[13]. Some editor said that the Shia-Sunni violence is somehow connected to Kashmir conflict, but produced no WP:RS backing his claim in spite of my insisting. And yet again, the same content, as it is, was added by WP:EDITWARRING without addressing any of these issues.[14] [15]
• Most embarrassing thing in all this affair is, none of the responsible editors who want to go with the idea, meaningfully created a 'History' section at the top and added stuff on Tribesmen atrocities in October 1947, 1947 Jammu massacres, Mirpur Massacre of 1947 etc in it, or worked to improve upon 'Pakistan Administered Kashmir' section which was added at the bottom which potentially had only one BBC reported case in it, during any of these edit wars. This clearly shows the desperate will to add anything related to PAK without sticking to the objective, ironically in the name of neutrality. And one user was saying he also wants to document content on sexual abuse in Chinese administered Kashmir where there is almost no population.
• Another funny thing is, despite all my efforts in explaining these issues point by point in every step, in this talk page, some user cited my edits saying they are WP:IDONTLIKEIT, posting a notice here!

• The editor Owais Khursheed apparently and clearly created this article as a subpage to Human rights abuses in Kashmir. See that page, it faces none of these problems. It precisely covers the scope which this article covers in its current shape. Perhaps the architects of that article with their good wisdom decided to document the content, after understanding what a reader normally expects from the article titled Human rights abuses in Kashmir, where even the word 'conflict' is not added in the title. For good, it has not become an article like Human rights in India. And none of the non-conflict or historical human rights abuses in Kashmir are documented in there, although they occurred in Kashmir. While what has been happening in this page is — simply exploiting and playing with the words, chosen in good faith by the article's creator for the title.
• So, to avoid all this nonsense, I am moving the article to Rape in Kashmir Insurgency using WP:SNOW. Later if any editor wants to contend the title or content of this article, he/she may do so by taking this to various resolution forums on Wikipedia. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 01:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)