Talk:Ulster English

craic

Why anyone would use an Irish spelling of an English loan-word in the context of writing English will, I assume, remain a mystery.

It is a mystery, but it is in common use in Ireland, and thus should remain on the article. D.de.loinsigh (Talk) 21:48 05 May 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 20:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Mystery solved. The word is not crack!! ~ R.T.G 17:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I see no mystery there what so ever! Craic is the way it should be! Plain and simple!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madfire91 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Craic agus ceol = Music and fun. Crack = whip or break which is not the same thing at all unless you are *crackers*. ~ R.T.G 15:13, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Majority of vocabulary

"The majority of vocabulary found in Mid-Ulster English (but not standard English) comes from Scots and Gaelic. Some examples are shown in the table below."

The majority of vocabulary will no doubt be shared with standard English, including those items with distinctively MUE pronunciations.

I assume you mean 'non-standard vocabularly'. Any sources for the claim that the majority comes from Scots and Gaelic. How much of it is also of English descent (often shared with Scots) but now archaic in standard English? [new poster] Strange, it gives us the spellings of the words even though Mid-Ulster English is basically just a collection of slang; in any document, essay etc. it's regarded as stupid to ever use these "non-standard words". Oh, and it depends where you are - there are many who do not use the word "bake" etc. It really depends, if you want to get beaten up, you use "big words" and normal langugae, otherwise you use this for oral communication. 82.18.181.78 22:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Bake

Bake is simply a phonetic spelling of beak. The /e/ realisation is explained in the article under vowels. The examples are simply colourful extentions of meaning.

Corrections

I have no idea where you are getting this information from, but as someone who has lived in Ulster my whole life, the so-called "corrections" are scarily nonsensical.

1. "Craic" is used as often as "crack". There are no phonetic differences, but if you look at signs outside pubs, etc., it is spelt both ways.

"Craic" is an Irish language spelling of the word "crack" borrowed from English. You are right that 'craic' is commonly used - it assumedly represents Irishness better than crack.

2. Of course the majority of Mid-Ulster vocabulary is going to be from Gaelic and Scots. There's hardly a wee bit of ambiguity here. Nevertheless, I have not corrected this, as this makes sense as well.

I have the feeling you are not including vocabulary shared with other varieties of English as Mid-Ulster vocabulary - if it is habitually used by speakers of Mid-Ulster English then it is MUE vocabulary. Or do speakers of MUE have a restricted vocabulary?

This list is by no means complete: there is obviously a myriad of vocabulary used by Ulstermen and women which is not listed here. If you want to add more words, there's nothing stopping you. Furthermore, could you please sign your comments, so I don't feel like I'm talking to a machine. - 19:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini what about ye?

3. "Beak" is very misleading. It is not just phonetic: I have taken this spelling from the Scots word "bake", meaning face, although the more common word would be "fizog". In a rare instance where it would be written, it would most likely be spelt "bake". - 19:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini what about ye?

Its still the word beak the MUE realisation is [bek], as it is in many Scots dialects. The spelling bake or baik may well occur in dialect writing in order to indicate the non-standard realisation, but to imply it is a different word is telling porkies. Fizog is a shortened form of Physiognomy used in colloquial speech. A literate person may perhaps spell it phisog.

Telling porkies? What the...? OK, first and foremost, the Scots language is not dialectal writing: read the first sentence of Scots language for proof. Additionally, "beak" is not generally (if ever) used to render "face" in English: that's why I included it here. The idea of this table is to include words which may not make sense to the average anglophone. "Thon" could well come from Old English "þon", yet I have included it here. There is always going to be some overlap here.- 19:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini ^{what about ye?}

dannèr

Scots traditionally doesn't have grave accents as in dannèr. They were adopted in the 1990s by Ulster Scots enthusiasts wanting parity of esteem with Irish. If Irish has accents so must Ulster Scots. For the Scots forms see the SND.

Walking

Dannèr is spelt with an accent in Ulster-Scots, but I don't see the harm it makes to spell it the accented way. - 19:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini ^{what about ye?}

Since the 1990s a few enthusiasts spell danner with an accent. It was never used in traditional (Ulster) Scots literature. It perhaps does no harm to spell it that way but in an encyclopedia it may give the impression that it has some pedigree. It does not, it is unnecessary and plain daft.

• It does not have any "pedigree" but I don't think it's plain daft. It reflects the "danther" pronunciation. You could of course simply spell it "danther".

How the unititiated are expected to recognise that the grave accent in the spelling dannèr is supposed to represent a dental consonant (is it a dental t or d?) in daunder will remain a mystery. The roman alphabet not having a particular symbol for such a realisation. Replacing the acute with the digraph th is equally confusing since people unfamiliar with the dialect (although this is more a feature of accent) are likely to interpret th as the voiced dental fricative /ð/, perhaps even the voiceless dental fricative /θ/, and those with a dental realisation of /d/ would realise it as such any way without any orthographic prompting. Since the obtuse spellings dannèr and danther are unlikely to illicit anything resembling the target realisation they are orthographically useless and simply a devise to exaggerate a minimal difference in pronunciation to a perceived standard. That would perhaps explain their scarcity in traditional dialect literature. Their recent use is a ploy to bamboozle rather than enlighten. 89.50.12.10 22:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Ach!

Ach! and och! are unlikely to be from Irish ach though reinforcement is a possibility. Ach! and och! simply retain the velar fricative /x/ which has been lost in "standard" English Ah! and Oh!

'Och!' comes from Irish Irish, generally a short version of 'óchón' or 'alas'. 'Och' is used in quite a lot or old Irish traditional songs. 'Ach!' also comes from Irish. This is reinforced through its pronunciation and the current English version used, 'But'.--Theosony (talk) 16:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Voiced consonants

Can anyone give me a source for mid-word consonant voicing for "k" and "p"? I'm not sure pepper is pronounced "pebber" and packet as "paggit". "Budder" for butter sounds correct, but I'm not sure where the other two come from, possibly anology with the voiced "t" but I'll not edit them out yet. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 13:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Try various stuff by John Harris about English in Ulster/Ireland.

But is that where the editor got it from? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 08:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposed corrections

A few things I propose changing in the phonology section:

• IPA:/ɛrn/ earn -> /ərn/ earn
• IPA:/e/ fate -> /iːɪ/ fate

I'm not sure about the "pebber" and "paggit" pronunciations for "pepper" and "packet" either, but I suppose it depends what people think. -- the GREAT Gavini 19:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

MID Ulster?

Sorry, but the middle of Ulster is Omagh; Belfast, Lisburn, Craigavon and Armagh are not at all Mid-Ulster. -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 06:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Political Boundaries

The article of Mid Ulster English should be combined with Hiberno English or made into an article on Ulster English to include all accents in Ireland which form a brouge. This would include Donegal, a large part of Monaghan and Cavan and parts of Louth and Leitrim. This article is drawing political boundaries with accents which in Ireland makes no sense. For example in the article it says that the Tyrone accent/dialect has similarities with Hiberno English. But surely this is in reference to the similarities to the Donegal accent, which itself is more simliar to the Belfast accent than it is to the accents in Mayo or Dublin. Accents in Ireland change gradually across the country, and have absoulutely nothing to do with the Political Bounaries as this article would seem to suggest.

I propose either combining this article with Hiberno English, widening the boundaries of Ulster English to areas in Ireland which pronounce the "th" correctly and not with a "d" sound, or dividing the article into seperate accents such as West Tyrone, Antrim, Belfast etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.28.202 (talk) 10:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Map (resolved)

Resolved

Ihate to bring it up but, is there any kind of source for the map image Image:MidUlsterEnglish.png, or should it be considered Original Research? --Setanta747 (talk) 22:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears to be neither. It looks like a synthesis of sources, which the illustrator has not yet documented. Since these boundaries vary a little depending on the source, it looks like a fair attempt, but of course the facts it claims are open to challenge. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

It looks very much like the introductory map in the 1996 'Concise Ulster Dictionary', Oxford. 84.135.190.45 (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem accurate at all to me. Also, I can't see the purpose on some of the pages it has been placed on and the captions don't seem to indicate anything, especially on the Ulster page. I'll remove the image until someone can make sense of it. I'll dig the archives for a more suitable and notable image.--Theosony (talk) 13:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Why does the map "seem inaccurate" to you? What sources are you basing this on? Its purpose is simply to show the areas where each language or dialect is most commonly spoken. It doesn't imply that "Irish is only spoken here" or "Ulster Scots is only spoken here". If you think the map needs more sources to verify it, tell the person who uploaded it rather than simply removing it altogether. Right now it's the best we've got.

The map will stay unless there is a consensus to remove it. One or two editors agreeing with eachother does not count as a consensus on Wikipedia. ~Asarlaí 15:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

It would be much easier if this issue was discussed in the easiest place. You are making something very simple very difficult. This discussion has been going on for over six months and there has been very little constructive discussion. I could appreciate you helping out rather than being immature. This image is WHOLLY inaccurate - and the licence is false anyway in the first place!--Theosony (talk) 15:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The map will be discussed here, because it refers to this article. Please try to be civil when using talk pages and remember that cutting + pasting other people's comments is against the rules. Furthermore, do not remove or edit the map again unless a consensus is reached. ~Asarlaí 15:41, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

You don't want a certain consensus, you want a personal consensus of your own. You turned a very simple matter into an arguement. This image is both INACCURATE and an infringement of copyright.--Theosony (talk) 15:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Please support your arguments with reliable sources rather than engaging in personal attacks. ~Asarlaí 15:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

You're both breaching 3RR today, so step back.

Opinion time - 1) you need to prove copyright violation by providing links, rather than just claim it to back up a point. 2) Without any indicate of the sources the accuracy of the map is up for debate, and the "best we've got" isn't a good enough reason for keeping something that may be inaccurate but there is no way of knowing. 3) Don't use consensus as an excuse here, there's no consensus to keep it either. --Blowdart | ^talk 15:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

It's from a book, is there any way I can add the book information, if ISBN/ISBN-13 and page number are helpful??--Theosony (talk) 15:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

File:Gaeilig_in_Uladh.jpg - as the second most-spoken language in Ulster, the map seems to under-represent the language. Ulster, partly being a Northern Ireland subject, should be neutral and up to date. The map seems is inaccurate, and also does not mark the high-concentration of Irish speakers in Derry. The map is completely inaccurate and favours one language over the other, one of the reasons the Ulster Concise Dictionary has been criticised and is only used as a resource by Ulster-Scots organisations nowadays.--Theosony (talk) 16:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The process is documented at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion --Blowdart | ^talk 16:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I will do my best to provide a neutral, up to date replacement in the coming days from Belfast City Library. It has official documents that are public domain.--Theosony (talk) 16:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Someone requested a third opinion at WP:3O, but since there are more than two editors involved (and the dispute seems to have been resolved through WP:IfD), I have removed the listing there. If additional assistance is needed, consider alternate steps to dispute resolution. Thanks! (EhJJ)^TALK 20:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Well its gone now, but if anyone is interested in what the 'inaccurate' map was based on, they can find it in Raymond Hickey, 'Irish English: History and Present-day Forms', Cambridge University Press, 2007 p.442

Damned academics and their inaccuracy. Good job we have knowledgeable Wikipedia editors who see to it that we at least get accurate information here. Nogger (talk) 18:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Was it this cesspit of inaccuracy? 84.135.253.180 (talk) 11:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a bit simplistic, but I certainly wouldn't call it a "cesspit of inaccuracy". ~Asarlaí 12:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

New map

What ever it is, it seems to have had a multicoloured resurection as File:EnglishLanguageDialectsinUlster.CainiúintíBéarlainUlaidh.jpg Also used for this article - GOTO first post in this thread. Nogger (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I've created and uploaded a new map, since the one mentioned above is based on this article (which isn't fully sourced). It cites another website as a source, but that link is broken. Let me know what you think of the new one. ~Asarlaí 22:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

floor whore door, vowel phonetics

Is whore more likely to be pronounced like floor and door or sure and cure? ~ R.T.G 21:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

There is not much difference between all 5, to my uneducated ear. In more Scots-influenced districts, I think floor rhymes with dour. I don't think that answers your question. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Hoor is one of the more Scot sounding. It's hoor for sure. Anything newer is pure original research. It doesnt go as far as hoo noo broon coo. ~ R.T.G 21:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And!! What does it mean " "b" for "p" such as in "pepper" "?? Salt and bebber? Large chip, plenty of salt, no bebber thanks ha ha ~ R.T.G 17:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Red hot silly bebbers ~ R.T.G 03:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Lol.--Theosony (talk) 09:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the floor = flur, door = dur, window = windy and one = wan! Thats how it's said! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madfire91 (talk • contribs) 01:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

More commonly for "floor" and "door" would be "floe-wur" and "doe-wur", like a slightly "o-wuh" sound with some parts pronouncing both "ur" (not "oor"). "Whore" is often as "hoor" but that's one of very few "oor" which are probably the most confusingly distinct mis-match between Scottish, English, Northern Irish, Southern Irish and perhaps Welsh (a little like Northern Irish with an English accent on those syllables?), Northern Irish with "our" pronounced "aur" in most areas rather than the English "aow-er" or the Scottish "oor". Most of the south is rather like the English for those pronounciations oor-our. "Sour" rymes with "Tzar" and "hour" (aar) in Northern Irish, would be "saower" in English and southern Irish except Waterford and greater Dublin areas where it would be "seeuwar", and Scottish, ... Welsh, ... gah! forget it!! lol. ~ R.T.G 12:23, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

It's actually difficult to describe Northern Irish "floor" and "door" in a way that will be definitely picked up right but it is very like a lot of American accented "floor" and "door". Isn't "one" = "wan" a very Derry specific one? ~ R.T.G 15:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

"U" sound in up and cup

Seems Derry says it like teh Republic and Belfast says it more like the Scots, the latter less throaty for want of a better word, can someone confirm?