User talk:Jimbo Wales

Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end.
Start a new talk topic.

There are also active user talk pages for User:Jimbo Wales on commons and meta. Please choose the most relevant.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251: 1 days

Archives

Index

–index–

This manual archive index may be out of date.
Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 1 days may be automatically archived by when more than 2 sections are present.

Template:Fix bunching

(Manual archive list)

Template:Fix bunching

Balls. Wikipedia's got 'em.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/us/20100803-wiki-LetterToLarson.pdf This rocks. --*Kat* (talk) 18:39, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That...is epic. Stick it to the man, man! Silverseren^C 18:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good letter - as a fellow lawyer, I bet it was fun drafting it. – ukexpat (talk) 19:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) The sense of humor evident in this reply makes great reading. It must have been a fun day at the office when that was passed around for review. Peacock (talk) 19:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Love the closing: "appropriate respect" indeed. Bielle (talk) 00:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Damn Straight. Cwill151 (talk) 03:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well I'm sure that letter was fun for Godwin to write, especially knowing it would end up in the news and across Wikipedia. But I think he's showboating and im not sure thats the best thing for WMF-- the letter rather has the tone of an AfD battle and is not likely to bring about resolution to this controversy. Why embarass the Feds into filing suit and needlessly waste WMF funds to litigate? Because it feels good? Well, yeah, but that may not be a sound business strategy. Ratcheting up the heat rarely results in a potential litigant backing down and dropping the issue. Granted, the Feds were petty in their request. Both sides have now painted themselves in a corner with threats of lawsuits that they may feel they have to follow through on to save face publicly Minor4th 04:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So we should have complied, in your opinion? That's a matter of principle, we can't tolerate nonsensical requests of this kind, regardless of who files them. --Cyclopia ^talk 16:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was such a ridiculous request (well, more like a demand, really) to begin with. While I would like to assume good faith about things outside WP as well...they're the freaking FBI. The chance that they didn't know that the laws they were citing didn't apply are pretty much nil. They just wanted to scare WMF to take down the seal, when they have no legal requirement to do so. And if they try and take it to court, they're just going to embarrass themselves, regardless of the outcome, because of it being such an asinine demand. Silverseren^C 16:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is you're taking Godwin's interpretation as accurate and assuming he just educated the FBI lawyers on the law. That's not exactly what happened. In fact, the law does apply. Godwin cited "the leading case" interpreting the statute (18 USC 701), but his interpretation is exactly opposite of what the case says -- particularly on the principle of ejusdem generis. He should have read the whole case carefully, and not just the headnotes - as that is what it appears has happened. Your assumption of good faith should have been that the FBI lawyers do in fact know the laws they are citing to. The fact of the matter is it would not be real difficult for the FBI to get a restraining order to require removal of seal even on a temporary basis. They are more likely to do something like that after receiving this letter from Godwin. Minor4th 17:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Minor4th ever said anything about complying with the FBI's request - he's a lawyer and chooses his words carefully. I think it has more to do with the tone of the letter and the feeling that it may not have been the best strategy to accomplish the desired result, which was to tell the FBI to take a hike without causing a lot of drama in the process. GregJackP Boomer! 16:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Minor to my knowledge is a legal expert and when he commented I did see his point..at those levels of importance and legality and lawsuits it is not a who has the big balls issue . Individual users should be more aware of their own personal legal responsibilities as they edit wikipedia and consider they may well require at some point their own 500 dollar an hour lawyer. Off2riorob (talk) 16:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'Meekly complying' and 'writing a mocking, smartass refusal' weren't actually the only two options here. It would have been quite easy to write a classy, courteous, civil, and still utterly devastating legal smackdown that doesn't make the project look like a bunch sarcastic know-it-all teenagers. The letter, as written, goes out of its way to make enemies. While it may have been very satisfying to write, it probably also means that the FBI will be unlikely to cut us any slack on any real issues which might arise in the future. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but the fact of the matter was that the feds were misrepresenting the law and the legal guys let them know that they knew it. The letter wont make us friends at the FBI, but its pretty clear that they aint friends anyway.Thelmadatter (talk) 16:47, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

TenOfAllTrades is right. Why piss off the Feds if you don't have to? How well did that work for Martha Stewart? There are much more subtle snide and veiled ways to tell the Feds that they are idiots - ask anyone in the Climate Change area (on any side - both have experts in snide, veiled remarks). In any event, until a judge tells us otherwise, we should leave the image up. Another point is the difference in the type of law that Godwin practices (primarily in-house counsel - solicitor for you Brits) and Minor4th (litigator - barrister for the Brits). While both are important, I think I would go with what a litigator thinks if it involves a potential lawsuit.GregJackP Boomer! 17:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@TOAT -- Precisely so.

As a taxpayer, I'll be pretty annoyed at the feds if they waste our money and tie up our courts with this nonsense. There are serious criminals who need to be dealt with. The logo on Wikipedia is not only legal, it's harmless. Whoever has been hired by the FBI to pursue this matter ought to be fired for egregious waste of taxpayer money. Jehochman ^Talk 18:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do wonder why they singled out wikipedia. The letter mentions that the seal appears on brittanica also. So I wonder if Britannica submitted a request for permission to use the seal or if they also got a letter from the Feds. As far as wsstong tax dollars -- its the goverment, youre not expecting efficiency are you?Minor4th 21:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is providing a high quality SVG representation of the seal, while, as far as I know, Brittanica is not. I'm not saying that the FBI is right that it's illegal for us to display the seal, but I also don't think it's fair to compare our use of it to almost every other use of it on the web. The FBI is certainly correct that our representation would be very helpful to someone who is trying to pass themselves off as FBI when they're not. Has anyone actually applied for the proper permissions to use the seal? It's certainly worth a shot, though I'm not sure at this point that it's likely to be granted. Buddy431 (talk) 02:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it's an SVG file, but Encyclopedia Britannica actually does have a pretty high-quality image of the seal, as seen here (go to the pane of videos and pictures on the left, scroll down to the seal and click) and a huge one here. Unless EB really did get permission from the FBI to display it that way, I don't see much difference. 71.113.22.219 (talk) 03:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In truth, the FBI does this a lot. While there is no law stating that the seal cannot be used if it is for informative and educational purposes, they still try and get places to take it down. I remember cases involving them and other websites. They've been doing this for years. In terms of matters like this, I don't really have any respect for them anymore. Silverseren^C 03:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A splendid piece of tact and diplomacy by Mike Godwin, and while I'm grateful for the free legal advice from Minor4th, it seems likely that Mike knows exactly what he's doing. Any court case on this would be fascinating. . . dave souza, talk 16:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree - he was a little confrontational, and Minor4th was right. I read the case after he posted it, and it does look like Mike pulled it from the headnote (if he uses Lexis) or the keycite (if Westlaw). The body of the opinion doesn't support his argument. You are right, it would be fascinating - and expensive. Not sure it is worth it, but Jimbo and the board get to make those decisions. :D GregJackP Boomer! 04:51, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@dave souza -- I was not giving legal advice, I was commenting on the merits of each argument. Do you have any meaningful rationale for your conclusion that Godwin knows exactly what he's doing and by logical extension, that the FBI lawyers do not know what they're doing? Any court case on this would be mundane and routine, not fascinating. This is something that has very rarely been litigated because it's just unnecessary to escalate a conflict over an official seal to that point. Why not simply make the requisite request for permission to use the seal? I guess some folks just love conflict more than results. Minor4th 13:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I must disagree with you there, Minor4th. We should not ask permission to do something that we have both common-sense and legal grounds to do, because it leaves us stuck if they say "No". What do we say then? "We weren't really asking in good faith; we're going to ignore you and do it anyway"? That doesn't win us any more friends than Mike's original obnoxious letter. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Silverseren -- Yes, this is unfortunately not uncommon for the Feds to flex their authority over minutiae. It is distasteful I agree. Minor4th 13:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikileaks hosts a TSA manual, in which they redacted various information in a .pdf by overlaying it with a separate black layer, »nuck, nuck«... [1] I was thinking the stuff on pages 4-23 to 4-26 might make good Commons uploads. ;) I mean, the CIA should thank us. If no one knows what their badge looks like how can we tell it's not a joke? Wnt (talk) 04:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Why not simply make the requisite request for permission to use the seal". Any idea how many such 'restricted' elements there are in the federal government ? Having to write 2000 or so letters to ask for permission to document all the seals, insignia and medals that we have articles on, is a waste of time on our editors. And in my opinion, doing so while continuing to ignore the same laws in all the other countries in the world is a sham, so that's another 100000 letters for you. I consider this "moderate risk taking" for the benefit of the Encyclopedia. I fully support it. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not to satisfy the archaic whims of the US government. If they force us, ok, they force us, but that will not go over nicely in the media. It will also leave them as the only agency without a seal in this Encyclopedia. With a nice 'Removed on demand of the FBI pdflink' in their infobox. We lose, they lose. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your comment, but if the government has laws restricting the use of insignia, you don't think Wikipedia should comply with them because it would be a hassle for editors and the encyclopedia wouldn't look as good? Minor4th 22:50, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm of the opinion that doing a lot of work in covering asses, for something that is quite possibly perfectly allowed, is wasted effort. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:10, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Seal of the Federal Bureau of Investigation has been nominated for DYK. Any admin want to volunteer and put it in the queue? Marcus Qwertyus 15:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that this is the right place, but having seen the thread, I am compelled to respond. Upon my first read of the incident, my reaction was that it was a missed opportunity. Those are the worst because they don't generally re-present themselves. Wikipedia had the chance to preserve knowledge, without propagating arrogance. "Knowledge is not arrogant, knowledge is powerful" my quote WP:OR. As a side note and worthy of mention, while Wikipedia is very 1st amendment savvy, as a foundation you are far more in compliance with and concerned about issues of copyright, an attribute, while equally far less concerned and/or compliant with issues of trademark, a liability. And of course, all of this is in my opinion. My76 Strat 03:06, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is neither a copyright nor a trademark issue. Neither applies to the seal. 18 U.S.C. 701 is a criminal statute, prohibiting the use of certain insignia of a law enforcement agency. I think it is a stretch on the part of the F.B.I., but I also think that Godwin misread the case (or only read the headnotes), because it doesn't say what he indicated it did in the letter. GregJackP Boomer! 04:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@My76Strat, this is easily explained by the fact that copyright has been so abuse as a legal instrument, that we actually NEED to protect ourselves from it, while the other laws are almost never used in cases of non-commercial and educational usages of material. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that comment; I understand your rational, and accept its validity. My initial observation and decision to include it as a side-note was to highlight what I perceived as misaligned values. Other examples can be produced, but let this suffice to illustrate that I believe the foundation missed a valuable opportunity to favorably promote itself from a righteous perspective, in favor of arrogance, most likely spawned by a prevalence of misaligned values which seems ubiquitous. My76 Strat 21:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For lolcats

FYI, a replacement image has already been proposed in case we are made to remove it. I see an internet meme coming :D —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Happy Birthday

Wishing you all the best on your birthday! From the Wikipedia Birthday Committee.

Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 02:51, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Came across a news article regarding you which is relevant to an ongoing discussion

Hi Jimbo, Happy Birthday! :)

We are having a spirited discussion over at RSN regarding FOX news. While investigating the topic I came across this techcrunch article regarding you and thought you might have some thoughts to share on the matter. Best Regards, Unomi (talk) 08:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh, I think I better stay out of it this time around. It is my birthday today, after all. Remind me in a few days to talk about Churchill and the UFOs story - I think it is a great example of how the media - across the board - are in a pretty sad state these days. Someone should buy me a newspaper to run, because I can hardly tolerate any of the lack of objectivity and reason that's going on these days.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well then, you should be proud of HJ Mitchell and the work done at WP:ITN, it's objectivity at it's maximum and credible information to boot. It is, in a sense, a "newspaper" that you already "run" :). Oh... and Happy Birthday Jimbo! Cwill151 (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with your assessment. Journalism today is reminiscent of journalism in the 1700s, and is nothing like I was taught. I wish I could afford to buy you a newspaper to run, but all I can offer Is this; Happy birthday! Zaereth (talk) 20:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion invitation

Hello and happy birthday Jimbo Wales, I'm here to invite you to a discussion on setting up good guidelines for tennis player notability. Please feel free to give comments and suggestions there. Thank you. Arteyu ? _{Blame it on me !} 09:23, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Non-free content

Dear Sir,

can you please confirm that it is not against the idea of fair-use content to remove such material from articles[2] which are rather pointless without it? And if indeed so for the given representative example, do you also think that the exception defined in the current wording of WP:NFC#UULP does not contradict it or could be misleading?[3] Another (non-BLP) case which you may find interessting and where a helpful illustration is going to be removed due to a possible overstrict policy interpretation by the same people would be the Charon moon. If you have a minute, please add small note. Testales (talk) 12:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Happy birthday

Hi Jimbo

Hope you managed to have a pleasant (and possibly Wikistressfree) birthday !

Chaosdruid (talk) 21:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Happy birthday Jimmy, have fun ! —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 23:17, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

+1 for a happy birthday! extransit (talk) 23:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A Chance

Happy Birthday Mr. Wales. I am user:InkHeart, I am writing this message as I am seeking a second chance in editing at Wikipedia. I know you don't give chances to socks but please I am asking and begging for you to give me another chance as an editor on Wikipedia. If you would like to suggest a proposal of me not editing for 1-2 years and then I can return I will most certainly take that offer. Please and thank you. 174.137.52.217 (talk) 00:32, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All users that don't sock for six months and make a fair request to edit constructively can be considered for WP:standard offer. I haven't looked at your specifics. Off2riorob (talk) 00:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really I didn't know that?? 174.137.52.217 (talk) 00:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am willing to go 2 years without editing on Wikipedia to get my priviledges back. 174.137.52.217 (talk) 00:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The standard offer is leave the site for 6 months. Don't sock, and don't edit under IPs. We'll probably let these few edits slide it's obvious you're acting in good faith. You'll probably be asked to reveal any and all previous accounts, and there may be other restrictions. If you still have the password for User:InkHeart, why don't you log in there and we can continue this discussion on your talk page. It is permissible to edit that. What we don't want is for you to evade your block with alternate accounts. N419 BH 01:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

administrative misjudgement

There are over a thousand administrators. However, only one is constantly the butt of complaints on ANI and he is Toddst1. Granted some complaints are not valid but when you have an outlying person, it must be a reason. Maybe he is abrasive. Maybe his judgement is bad.

In my case, he didn't like a banner on my talk page so he complained to me about it. He then closed an ANI post about my tag (as an involved party he should not be deciding on things involving himself) and also gave me an inappropriate (false accusation) warning about being uncivil and attacking others. That's like when the police beat up an innocent man then claim he beat them (until a video shows otherwise). Or like one person being the plaintiff, judge, and executioner.

Toddst1 should be on notice that his administrative powers will be stripped if he constantly gets complaints while other administrators do not have this problem. Either he is guilty or really rubs lots of people the wrong way, more than any other admin. Even you don't get this many complaints and you are the lightning rod of Wikipedia. Disclaimer: I am just letting you know this (like a cc in a business e-mail) but do not request any action - any action is per your descretion.RIPGC (talk) 03:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh this'll go well... HalfShadow 03:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since RIPGC shopped this here from AN/I, Jimbo might want to take a look at that discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:17, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Any time a user takes a trivial complaint to Jimbo, the issue immediately moves to hilarious. elektrik SHOOS 03:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should we throw popcorn at him now, or wait until after the failsplosion? HalfShadow 03:21, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FOOTBALLPLAYERWHOSHALLNOTBENAMED N419 BH 03:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That link is hilarious given the history behind it! If only every complaint brought to Jimbo could have such humor injected into it, I'm pretty sure the people complaining would relax a bit. Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 03:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to User:Beyond My Ken, Ks0stm is being disruptive by adding that box and should be blocked. Toddst1 also agrees that adding such box will result in a block...in this case of Ks0stm RIPGC (talk) 03:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 04:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I think that's the first time a user has even suggested that I be blocked...I never thought the first time would be for something so trivial as my signature (at least I think that's what he meant?) Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 05:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@RIPGC. Please don't speak for me. I find that banner disruptive, and always have. I went to your talk page to read the discussions there and the damn banner was on the top of the page. Forgetting momentarily what the subject of your entry at AN/I was, I clicked on it thinking I had a message, and was sent to your talk page. Ha ha, very funny joke, but you manage to waste my time, which, even if it's only a couple of second, is not yours to waste. Get rid of the damn banner, and don't put words into my mouth again, please. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find the discussion from WP:AN/I is rapidly spilling onto here as well. Let's keep it over there. This page, after all, is for Jimbo's amusement only, and I really, really doubt he'll respond to it at all. Or, if he does, it certainly wouldn't be in the way that User:RIPGC is clearly expecting him to. elektrik SHOOS 04:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Annulment declaration of Wikipedia's principles and Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines in Japanese edition 3

Part1　Annulment declaration of Wikipedia's principles and Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines in Japanese edition

Part2　Annulment declaration of Wikipedia's principles and Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines in Japanese edition　2

Wikipedia Japanese edition community understood the speech of Jimbo as follows.Jimbo doesn't take part in Wikipedia Japanese edition. The authority was voluntarily abandoned. Neither Wikipedia:Role of Jimmy Wales nor User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles are applied to Wikipedia Japanese edition.Therefore, Wikipedia Japanese edition community rejected[4]] WP:TALKEDABOUTIT, WP:CONEXCEPT, and WA:OA [5]. Resolution:Licensing_policybecame an essay[6].Because Wikipedia:Revision deletion was existence to threaten authority of sysop, it was rejected by the community. It was suggested that I could use authority for unlimited freedom[7].Wikipedia:Info-ja negotiates as a legal representative, and does Office Action. It voted on the specification of MediaWiki[8], it resolved, and it changed to the directed content[9].

Wikipedia Japanese edition community is thought that Jimbo, Mike Godwin, Wikimedia Foundation, and Wikipedia English edition community also have connived at our behavior.--山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 07:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]