Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 April 6

6 April 2024

List of cult films

List of cult films (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

In this closure, the closer said "[A keep] argument was not successfully rebutted by the Delete views." Four of the keep votes came in during the final day of the AFD – following a canvass of previous keep voters – that I didn't see and I don't think there was enough time to allow for responses. With a final !vote of 6–5, I do not believe there was a consensus to keep already, and I request that it be relisted for further discussion. I also have concern about the closer's comparison "similar to that of List of films considered the worst" – that page is a contextual prose article in that sense more similar to the corresponding main article here, cult film, rather than 27 alphabetical pages of thousands of simple bullet points, so this feels like a supervote to me. Reywas92^Talk 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Relisting seconded. (Disclosure: I voted del, but now I am leaning to keep/cleanup) A close call. The closer wrote: "isn't of cult films, but of films described by reliable sources as "cult", which is well-defined criterion" -- in the context of Wikipedia this is a tautology ( "Lists of stars is described in reliable sources as a "star" :-)), hence cannot be a relevant "keep" argument. - Altenmann >talk 00:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse Close As the closer stated, we have many lists of non-binary and subjective topics (thank goodness), so that alone is not reason to delete. Also many of the Deleters misquoted WP:LISTCRIT to say subjective topics are not allowed - this is a fallacy, LISTCRIT says they are with reliable sourcing. Because of this AfD, there is currently ongoing discussion how to define/refine the criteria. -- GreenC 01:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Respedctfully disagreed: LISTCRIT says: "unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources" (emphasis mine). At the same time, after the re-reading of the article "cult film, I see that it gives a rather specific and I would say, a rather objective definition. Therefore I am favoring cleanup now (enormous job), although I seconded the relisting. - Altenmann >talk 01:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

    WP:LISTCRIT says: In cases where the membership criteria are subjective or likely to be disputed, it is especially important that inclusion be based on reliable sources. We have sources. LISTCRIT clearly allows for subjective criteria. Any quoting of this rule needs to say this. It's misleading to suggest the rule says otherwise. -- GreenC 13:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Relist I typically read the discussion before I read the reason why the discussion is being brought to DRV, and I came back ready to endorse the close. I don't think it was a supervote, though I think no consensus may have been a better option. However, I think a relist is appropriate because this was a clear delete until the time at which other editors were notified only yesterday, meaning those advocating for delete did not have time to rebut those wishing to keep this article. I'm not sure which way this will swing after a relist, but it doesn't matter - more discussion is clearly warranted. (Also a reminder to the closer of this DRV to check to see which endorsers participated in the AfD.) SportingFlyer T·C 01:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse as even without the recent keeps, the delete votes were simply not policy based and failed to understand sourcing for subjective lists. To wit:
  • there are no reliable sources for determining "cult"ness of a film, because it's a vague, subjective term without a clear definition.
  • what makes a film "cult" is very subjective and there isn't a widely accepted definition of the term. Even if reliable sources call it a cult film, that's still using that source's own definition of "cult" because again, it is not a clearly defined term in the slightest.
  • When the inclusion criteria here is that one person used a certain term once to describe a movie, that isn't necessarily a relevant commonality or a useful description.
  • This list does not have a clear inclusion category other than "a source called it cult once," and cult itself does not have a clear definition.

  That's one quote per delete !voter other than the nom: each of them demonstrates a sufficiently bad understanding of how RS'ing applies to a subjective label that they should be entirely discounted. OwenX's assessment is spot on, and even if you discount the influx of late keeps, the AfD should still have been closed as delete keep. Jclemens (talk) 05:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  • Those all seem like correct interpretations of whether a list is subjective/indiscriminate to me...? SportingFlyer T·C 05:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
    • Agreed; Yes, RS'ing applies to a subjective label regardless wikipedian's opinion, but here Wikipedia policy does come into play, together with Wikipedian's opinion, about what lists are based on subjective criterion, i.e., the issue is not verifiability, but our policy about lists. - Altenmann >talk 05:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
    • Well, then you're either wrong or missing the point, I suppose. There is no definition of "cult film" or any other subjective list selection criterion, other than what RS'es say. If RS'es have a mish-mash definition, then it is elitist and against policy for Wikipedia editors to try and "clean up" what RS'es say. RSes can be contradictory and confused: that is not a reason to not follow them, but rather to carefully catalogue the differing viewpoints amongst them per DUE. Jclemens (talk) 06:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. Good close. “Delete” was not close to being in the cards, so do not relist. People who don’t like the lists should read advice at WP:RENOM. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse as a valid closure, and the right closure. A Relist would have been also valid, but after notifying all previous participants, and after four previous AFDs, closure as Keep was a good idea. Either it isn't canvassing to notify all of the previous participants, or we need another word to characterize biased canvassing. Enough is enough. This result was the same as recent previous results. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. Our list of cult films is a laughable list of cult films, seeing how it includes The Godfather, American Beauty and Taken as cult films (and many other films which are sometimes trivially and casually referred to as "cult films"; note how the articles about these films do not describe them as cult films, because there's nothing of substance to write about their purported cult film status ... because they are not, in fact, cult films). I advise everyone against looking at this list. A misinformation internet page. I agree with Reywas92. Comments on the delete side were excellent. I like what the IP wrote (that "list of films that have been called cult films" [emphasis mine] does not meet NLIST and is indiscriminate). But there was no consensus to delete.—Alalch E. 16:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Avatar is also a cult film according to this misinformation page. No instance of the word "cult" in the article of course. —Alalch E. 16:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Note also this AfD for some perspective: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cult television shows (closed on 5 April 2024 as delete) —Alalch E. 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Alalch E. I didn't say there was a consensus to delete, but there was not a consensus to keep and there should be more time for additional votes which is why I requested a relist. "Keep" was a bad closure. Reywas92^Talk 02:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Reywas92 It's almost impossible to delete these problematic lists once NLIST-based keeps start accumulating. I recall this AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation. A fabulously bad list. Incredibly strong arguments for deleting. Ultimately it was editorially TNT'd and reworked from ground up. This is what should happen here. Whether the outcome is no consensus like in that AfD or keep like in this AfD doesn't really matter. —Alalch E. 02:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse the delete votes were weak and supported very little by policy/guidelines. The late keep votes were probably what put keep over the top, but as they are not canvassed (notifying EVERYONE involved of a subsequent discussion, without regard to vote, is a legitimate tactic to increase awareness), these are legitimate votes. The list is obviously subjective and can be improved, but that is too the scope of DRV. Frank Anchor 15:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse I'm not convinced that there was inappropriate canvassing; pinging editors who participated in a previous discussion of the same matter is hardly unusual practice. There's even good faith grounds to argue that the onus should rest with a nominator to ping previous editors when sending an article to AfD for the n time. The closer might have mentioned explicitly the delete arguments for WP:INDISCRIMINATE, which were countered by WP:NEXIST-type arguments (I'm truly flummoxed by the claim that a British Film Institute source does not "pass the smell test for reliability"), the more detailed engagement with WP:LSC and the response that most concerns were content concerns, not notability concerns. There was one TNT contribution, which of the delete arguments to my mind was the strongest, but there was no other support for that since there was no follow up analysis of how signficanly problematic the article is in its current state (comments on examples of what should not be there, but nothing giving a qualitative assessment). FWIW, we accept a limiting factor to lists being our own notability requirements (see for example List of Norwegian musicians). Concur with the comment above, even without the "late" contributions, stronger p/g position was keep. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 01:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Kansas City shooting

Kansas City shooting (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Based on an analysis of the votes, it’s in between disambiguation and no consensus. The discussion was tainted by WP:BLUDGEON behaviour by Thruddyulf as well. Some of the votes are based on the length of time between nominations, which for a current event must be discounted. Discounting those votes, the consensus is clear that disambiguation is the correct shooting. Keep voters completely contradicted WP:RECENTISM, WP:10YT, etc. And regarding the Google searches - when I looked up Kansas City shooting, this was the first result, then this, then this and only my 4th article is about it. Granted, those shootings don’t have articles, but the media hype about this is dying down and it’s blatantly obvious that in a few months, this will be just as talked about as those other shootings that have articles. Finally, the closure gave no justification for their closure, so they didn’t even explain it. At least if they explained it, there’s logic that this controversial decision is based off of.24.89.159.222 (talk) 23:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. On the procedural side, I'm not seeing anything inappropriate in what went on in the discussion, or that the closing was a misapplication of consensus. On the content side, since Kansas City shooting (disambiguation) exists, it's clear that something should exist at this title. The question is whether it's a redirect to the dab page or the dab page after a round-robin move. —C.Fred (talk) 23:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse I don't see anything wrong with the close myself and likely would have closed the same way. I also strongly disagree with the accusation of bludgeoning by Thryduulf - a bludgeoning accusation is serious, and we were far from it here. Finally, it may be proper to revisit this in a few months, but that was even mentioned by some of the !keep voters, and I don't see anything explicitly against policy. SportingFlyer T·C 23:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

  When one is used to the anemic participation in RfD, rather than the lively banter at AfD, any participation at all can look like bludgeoning, I suspect. Jclemens (talk) 05:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Hello, closer here. I think I'll refrain from leaving a !vote and let the community decide whether or not my close was appropriate. However, I want to note that most of the nominator's statement is their opinion as it relates to the original discussion, such as sharing Google search results to attempt to determine the primary topic. Since that's not what deletion review is for, I won't address those arguments. As for the lack of a closing rationale, I actually try not to write significant closing statements for deletion discussions to avoid accidentally slipping into supervote territory; my job as a closer is not to provide my opinion, but to interpret the weight of other editors' opinions and apply them to (hopefully) improve the encyclopedia. Feel free to ping me with any specific questions. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse: if anything, the redirect should not be deleted, but retargeted to Kansas City shooting (disambiguation), but this is the subject of editing discussion, not deletion. - Altenmann >talk
• Endorse, the close was proper. I would have closed it the same way but TechnoSquirrel69 beat me to it. Jay 💬 08:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. Good close reflecting the discussion. The discussion was to keep or DABify, falling on the side of Keep. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. The appellant makes a valid point about some of the !votes being tainted by recentiism. But I'm not convinced it is enough to discard those views when discussing redirects and DABs. Unlike articles, redirs are kept based on current usefulness, not enduring notability. A survey of Google results is a valid indication of what search terms people are using today, even if it tells us nothing about what they'd look for in ten years or in two months.

Like the appellant, I would have liked to see a brief closing rationale. I can relate to the admin's reasoning for skipping an explanation. I, too, occasionally get accused of supervoting when I provide such transparency for my read of consensus when I close, but that's no justification for avoiding it. Be bold, be open, invite reasoned criticism.

Finally, the accusation of bludgeoning is without merit. What Thryduulf did is what we should all be doing: engaging with other participants in a civil manner, and attempt to build consensus.

All that said, I would welcome a fresh XfD in two months. Owen× ☎ 11:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd hope there's been some discussion at Talk:Kansas City shooting (disambiguation) or Talk:Kansas City shooting in the interim about how to title the dab page or what this title should redirect to. If there hasn't been, then the XfD might need to extend to the dab page and whether it's truly serving its purpose. —C.Fred (talk) 13:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback — I do provide brief closing rationales for discussions I feel are contentious enough to warrant it, but maybe my threshold for that could be taken down a couple steps in the interest of clarity, which I'll keep in mind going forward. Also, just noting for noting's sake: I'm not an administrator. :) —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 16:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to express an opinion about the close, but I do think a closing summary would have beneficial. I do have to say though that I'm very surprised at the accusation of bludgeoning levied against me here. I made four comments in the 3 and a bit weeks this was open. The first comment was to express an opinion about the article, the second was asking another editor to clarify their rationale as it didn't (and still doesn't) make sense to me, the third was to express an opinion about an alternative proposal that was made after my previous two comments, and the fourth was to expand on my first comment a fortnight after I made it. To the filer of this DRV: please could you explain which of those comments you feel demonstrates bludgeoning and why? Thryduulf (talk) 18:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Sindhuja Rajaraman

Sindhuja Rajaraman (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The rationale to delete carried more weight. The subject article on its reading appears non-notable. Coverage is not substantial but sensationalism/churnalism. Marked for updation since 2015. Thanks, Please feel free to ping/mention -- User4edits (T) 06:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn I don't believe keep was a reasonable close - those arguing for keep were not doing so very strongly, and those arguing against WP:BLP1E didn't really make strong arguments either (either confusing 1E and SUSTAINED, or saying "age is not an event" though the event is clearly becoming a young CEO). I think possible results of this discussion were no consensus and delete, and I would have closed as delete, but any result that's not keep is fine by me. SportingFlyer T·C 19:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn to No Consensus. The closer's reasoning would be good reasoning for a Keep !vote, but is a supervote as a close. Although a close is not a vote count, the vote count should be given some weight, and there were four good-faith Delete statements including the nominator but excluding the blocked editor, and three good-faith Keep statements. The Delete arguments should not have been discounted. After two previous relists, the close should be changed to No Consensus, and a new nomination can be made in two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse as the closing admin. This was my assessment of the views expressed in that AfD:

On the Delete side:

• User4edits, as nom, claiming:

• N WP:1E - successfully countered by the Keeps
• N WP:NOTWEBHOST - irrelevant

• ToadetteEdit claiming:

• N BLP1E - successfully countered

• Esprit15d, claiming:

• N "per nom"
• Y coverage not significant
• N sources in foreign-language media re: animation work - irrelevant

• N Bhivuti45 - user blocked
• RangersRus claiming:

• N no international coverage - not a P&G argument
• N there are many other young CEOs who are and can be considered notable - WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST

On the Keep side:

• Kvng claiming:

• Y SIGCOV

• Oaktree b claiming:

• Y two reliable sources

• I'm tla claiming:

• Y WP:BLP1E doesn't apply
• Y at least 3 SIGCOV RS spanning 8 years

So while at first blush, the Delete participants have a small numerical advantage, once you sift the arguments down to P&G, other than the one claim by Esprit15d which was reasonably questioned by others, all guideline-based arguments fall on the Keep side. I believe that closing this as Delete would have given weight to IDONTLIKEIT-type arguments in favour of actual policy. I, personally, have no opinion about the article itself, so the accusation of a supervote is without basis. Owen× ☎ 21:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping, it still appears to be a marginal !keep vote based on a re-review, but I'm not fussed either way, however we decide for it to go. Oaktree b (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I absolutely disagree the !keeps countered the WP:BLP1E argument, hence my overturn. SportingFlyer T·C 22:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The question, as I read the AfD, is not whether this is a person famous for one event or not. She clearly is only famous for that one event. The question is whether the event, and the person's role in it, meet all three WP:BLP1E criteria to qualify for deletion. I believe the Keep !voters successfully argued that it does not meet C#3, seeing as the event received significant national coverage in independent RS for eight years, and the person's role in it was pivotal. For WP:BLP1E, all three criteria need to be met to qualify for deletion. Owen× ☎ 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

There were three !keep votes. The first vote doesn't understand why this is an "event." The second only says that there are two reliable sources. The third is a weak keep, saying they don't believe age isn't a BLP1E factor because coverage was sustained, which isn't part of BLP1E at all. Nobody in the discussion talks about C#3 either explicitly or implicitly. The way you're explaining your conclusion is starting to sound like a supervote. SportingFlyer T·C 23:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I said weak keep because this meets #1 and maybe #2 of WP:BLP1E. But not #3. Her role was substantial, as CEO, and is well documented in essentially all of Indian media. TLA^tlak 07:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

"No international coverage" was taken out of context, mea culpa for poor choice of words. I intend to say that the young lady's achievement is not many and the company that she is CEO of is not notable. Her achievement is that she was the youngest CEO that got same repeated coverage in sources early on and that is all. She has no significant other achievement if you take another young CEO Advait Thakur, at the age of 15 who continued to earn more notable achievement till today like created an app for Google Assistant called "Autism Awareness" and awarded The Startup India's "Main 10 Young Entrepreneurs In India 2018" and also included in "India's Hottest Young Entrepreneurs Of 2018, "Most Influential Youth Marketing Professional of 2CMO Asia CMO Asia, Zoom, and the World Federation of Marketing Professionals' Global Youth Marketing Forum. Sindhuja's achievement is not substantial. RangersRus (talk) 10:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse Being a CEO is not 1E per WP:WI1E, while becoming one might be. No consensus would have been reasonable closure as well, but overturning keep to no consensus is not worth our time. The fact that so much of Indian media is paid placement muddies the water a bit, but this was picked up internationally. Jclemens (talk) 23:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Being a CEO of a 10-person company is not what I see to be claim of notability. The 1E in question is Guinness thingy, which caused the media stir. - Altenmann >talk 01:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
    • Notability flows from RS coverage. If a topic gets coverage sufficient to meet the GNG, it's notable, regardless of my, your, or anyone else's opinion of whether the topic should or should not have been covered by reliable sources. Jclemens (talk) 06:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse or a weak overturn to no consensus. It's clear that the sources are good here, but the concern is with WP:BLP1E. But this fails #3 and only weekly hits #2, because the coverage spans 8 years. TLA^tlak 07:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn (relist for more source discussion). The close reads Supervotery, OwenX stating his opinion/conclusion rather than quoting from the discussion. The discussion reads as just getting starting, except that it is tainted by being the football of a PAID turf war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#What's_going_on_here?). The source analysis above belongs at AfD. The blocked editor's "churnalism" allegation needs examination by other users. Actually, it is probably best to call it "no consensus" or "tainted" and to allow a fresh nomination. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Overturn to no consensus to allow immediate renomination. Defining an event is done broadly in the context of BLP1E. Practically anything that someone in a deletion discussion labels an event could, ostensibly, be treated as an event for the purposes of that discussion. The discussion around construing the thing as "Being a CEO", i.e., as (arguably) not an event, or "becoming a CEO", i.e., as (arguably) an event, needed to have been more resolved for the closer to say that the BLP1E argument was "successfully countered" on the basis of how the claimed event was not an event. It is not clear if (and which) editors had "being" or "becoming" in mind, and it comes down to semantics to an extent. Overall, editors distinctly did not agree about the nature of the thing as an event or not-an-event. Discounting BLP1E-based !votes on the basis of how the "event" thesis was wrong had the character of a supevote. When what was discounted is counted in, it turns out that the discussion is unresolved. There were two relists and instead of overturning and relisting, it would be better to start with a fresh nomination. One that is laid out better.—Alalch E. 15:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure where you saw any of that in my closing rationale. I did not discard any !vote based on the claim that it is or isn't an event. However, as I'm tla and I explained above, while the article falls under the jurisdiction of BLP1E, it does not meet the deletion criteria listed in that policy. As such, deletion "per BLP1E" is a discarded argument, no matter how many participants voiced it. We do not delete biographies of living people based on a single event if that event is significant, well documented, and the person's role in it is substantial, as determined by RS. Owen× ☎ 16:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm tla disagreed with your interpretation of BLP1E just above and is now blocked indefinitely. With all due respect, with each of your responses here, your decision sounds more and more supervotey. SportingFlyer T·C 17:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'll try to reread everything and see if I can modify the above comment. It does seem to me now like I got partially sidetracked while coming up with it. But my impression is that recommendation should still be to overturn. —Alalch E. 03:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Overturn to No Consensus. I am not sure that the closer should just waive off BLP1E as a discarded argument. --Enos733 (talk) 02:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Weak overturn to NC Keep was a reasonable interpretation of this discussion but NC is a bit better. I agree with others here that the BLP1E concerns were not given quite enough weight. However there clearly was not consensus to delete and a third relist would not change that. I would advise the nominator here to take the advice at WP:RENOM if they wish to send back to AFD. Frank Anchor 11:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse - The close was well reasoned both at the time of closing and above. The other possible read of the discussion is as no consensus in which case we would also keep the article so I don't see the point in continuing the discussion here. ~Kvng (talk) 01:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)