Talk:1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident

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Featured article 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
January 4, 2008 WikiProject peer review Reviewed
January 5, 2008 WikiProject A-class review Approved
January 21, 2008 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

Previous assesments[edit]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmhermen (talkcontribs) 01:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Waaay tooo long[edit]

This article is great, but it's waaay tooo long given its relative importance (or lack of). It's a third as long as the article for the 2003 Iraq War. Any chance of trimming it back a little? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.143.76.26 (talk) 13:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Poor suggestion. The obvious remedy is to expand other articles if it is felt they compare unfavourably.139.48.25.60 (talk) 19:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

This article needs to cover many different aspects in a complicated investigation process. Therefore it is going to be long as to sufficiently cover all the US Government investigations. It is an excellent article and I commend those who have done major contributions. It does however lack foreign government investigations and or reactions. It would be improved if these were added. My experience is in the fighter and helo community and this tragic event could have been avoided many times and hopefully some who are involved in these fields can learn from the article. Finally my condolences to any of the family members who have read this in order to bring some closure on their tragic loss of loved ones. Pheasantpete aka Marine Pete — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pheasantpete (talkcontribs) 10:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Amount of Supplies Delivered[edit]

62,000 sorties over 6 years, and they supplied 16 tons of supplies to the Kurds? Is that a mistaken figure? You could fit that in one 18-wheel trailer!````

I think that number must have been a typo in the source (Ms Piper's book). I haven't been able to find a better number, however. Cla68 (talk) 01:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
At: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/provide_comfort.htm the figures they give are: "Operation PROVIDE COMFORT I ended on 24 July 1991, and PROVIDE COMFORT II began. Up until this point the task force airdropped 6,154 short tons of supplies, flown in another 6,251 by helicopter, and delivered a further 4,416 tons by truck". Though note that this source does not give the total number of rotary and fixed wing sorties in relationship to tonnage of supplies delivered, so I'd be leery of using the supply numbers with the figure of 62,000 sorties. Note that if you add up the tonnage (including delivery by truck) it comes to: 16821 short tons (which provides an obvious handle for the typo) Pmarshal (talk) 03:14, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
16,000 tons sounds more likely, and I'll keep an eye out for a source. Until then, maybe it's better just to remove the "16 tons" from the article. Cla68 (talk) 03:44, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Interservice Rivalry?[edit]

Not sure this is an established issue in this case. IFF has been around much longer and actually precedes this incident, and it isn't a case of not "sharing" the code. There were differences in operation before this incident and now the two services are generally on the same page. --Born2flie 15:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Snook's book goes into this issue in some detail. Once I get to this article I'll add details about the problems in cooperation between the Army and Air Force at that time that contributed to this incident. CLA 23:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

image formatting[edit]

I made several changes to the image sizing & alignment on 2008-02-16, and was summarily reverted by Cla68 (talk · contribs) [1], requesting that I not do so. I don't understand this user's rationale for reversion, so I'll explain myself here before doing so again.

I removed the image sizing and alignment specifications per the manual of style for images (WP:MoS#Images): the non-specification of image sizes for end-user preferences and only left-aligning images under certain circumstances. Does anybody have any thoughts re: this article's special needs to disregard to manual of style in this fashion?

I also converted "indent/manual numbering" to "wikinumbering" for ease of editing purposes; as well as added carriage returns for the same reason. Cla68 made no comments to those effect but reverted nontheless, so I thought I would explain. Thoughts anybody?—pd_THOR | =/\= | 15:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, the MOS is wrong on this. Images should be sized to help them fit the text and layout of each specific article. Also, images look better if the object in the picture, whether a person or a thing, is facing inwards towards the article. Furthermore, alternating the images between right and left helps prevent white space from occurring in different views of the article that can occur depending on the browser used. I appreciate you trying to help the article follow the MOS but I don't agree with the MOS in this instance. Cla68 (talk) 03:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I gather what you're saying then is, that you don't like the manual of style and don't need to apply it to your articles? I'm sorry, but the MoS itself expects that "[e]ditors should follow it, except where common sense and the occasional breach will improve an article." You're citing your point of view as common sense, and disregarding my changes and explanations out of hand.

Images shouldn't be sized specifically because w/o allowing user-set preferences to dictate the thumbnail sizing, they can either be ridiculously and uselessly small or can take up half of the article's width. I disagree with your alignment argument as (again) only your point of view; I left left-aligned images where it would conflict with the articular flow, or otherwise necessary. Otherwise, the MoS only recommends right-facing profile pictures be specifically aligned to the left. And if differing alignments would improve the readability in specific browsers as a result of the MediaWiki's interpretation, that would (a) be necessarily addressed in the software itself, (b) be directed or recommended by the MoS, or (c) be utilized in the large majority of articles as opposed to not.

I realize you don't like my editing your article, and apparently you don't like to use the manual of style as it pertains to images, but they're instrumental to the very nature of Wikipedia and a stylistic consistency across the site, respectively.—pd_THOR | =/\= | 04:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

And for what it's worth, this is apparently the second time somebody has removed the image sizing specifications from your article: [2].—pd_THOR | =/\= | 04:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, the article passed FAC with the images like this. I think your point about the image sizing makes sense, because they could appear messed-up for people with user-set preferences, which I don't have (I don't think). I don't agree on putting all of the images on one side, for the reasons I listed above, and I'm going to remain in respectful disagreement with you on that point. One piece of advice...don't personalize disagreements, like suggesting to editors that they don't want you editing "their" articles. It can get in the way of reasonable debate. Cla68 (talk) 08:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd guess that it passed FAC like this because it doesn't violate MOS. Although the guidelines say that right-alignment is preferred, it says "Multiple images in the same article can be staggered right-and-left". It merely states that setting image sizes "is not necessary", and allows that it can be appropriate to aid readability of the images. Removing these settings simply to comply with MOS is a misreading of the guidelines, which were deliberately worded as they are to allow judgments to be made on a case-by-case basis rather than assuming that one size fits all. Some of the photos are rather difficult to read at default thumbnail size, and I would suggest scaling some of the portaits down, as they could be read easily enough at smaller sizes. The default thumbnail sizes tend to make portraits bigger in comparison to landscape-format images, which does warrant compensation when the landscape images have more information. - JasonAQuest (talk) 14:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting[edit]

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether a date is autoformatted or not). MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. Does anyone object if I remove it from the main text in a few days on a trial basis? The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just our huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 08:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Removed content[edit]

I removed:

Since the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, friendly fire incidents in which USAF aircraft and personnel were involved that have resulted in deaths and/or injuries to Americans or their allies have continued to occur. These incidents include the killing of four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan by USAF F-16s in the Tarnak Farm incident in 2002 and the killing of a British soldier by USAF A-10s in the 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident in 2003. Nevertheless, as of August 2005, no more U.S. Army helicopters are known to have been shot down by USAF fighter aircraft.<ref>Moran, "Battling friendly fire", BBC, [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6962071.stm "'Friendly fire' kills UK soldiers"].</ref>

The citation does not support any of the claims in the paragraph. It is a news report about a friendly fire incident involving the USAF that killed three British soldiers in Afghanistan in 2007. Moved to the talk page for review and discussion. Vassyana (talk) 18:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember where that info came from. If I can't find a supporting source, then this paragraph should stay out. Cla68 (talk) 09:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Location?[edit]

The location of the shootdown is given as 36°46′N 45°05′E / 36.767, 45.083 but this corresponds to a area just inside of Iran a few miles north of Piranshahr, which cannot be correct.--75.25.136.186 (talk) 08:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't remember which source those coords come from. Next chance I have I'll look at Snook's and Piper's books to try to validate if those are right or not, which they don't seem to be. Cla68 (talk) 09:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

IFF[edit]

I propose we audit some of the squawk talk. It starts off about them squawking the wrong IFF code. In this case they really mean they were squawking the wrong Mode-1 SIF Code. Later we have discussion in two places where they said they tried two IFF frequencies. What they really mean, is that they tried both IFF crypto codes (A and B). There are two codes loaded, so you can fly for two days, but some people put the switch in the wrong position, so it doesn't hurt to check if they are on the wrong code. Another problem, is if you don't turn on the bypass switch, then when you land, the squat-switch will dump both codes. At this point you are no longer a participant, and will see a lot of "IFF Caution" lights and beeps in your headsets, signifying that someone is interrogating you and you are not sending any proper reply. Pilots are trained to contact the airborne command post and/or fly a safe passage corridor. The Brit shootdown at the start of the current Iraq war was another case of an aircraft not having an IFF capability, and not flying a safe-passage corridor. The A.D.A. Motto is "If it flies it dies." That's how it should be in war. You mess-up, you die. The Mode-1 SIF is an important sorting tool in modern air warfare. K5okc (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I tried to simplify the details about the IFF when I wrote the article, but I understand that I may have oversimplified it and lost some important detail. Please feel free to take a shot at improving what it says. I had a hard time figuring out how to synthesize how the IFF works. Cla68 (talk) 01:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I modified the frequencies to modes. The GAO report shows the correct terminology. K5okc (talk) 14:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Looks good. Thank you. Should Mode wikilink to this? Cla68 (talk) 23:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't know what the underlying encryption is, stream or block?? Probably confidential anyway. K5okc (talk) 04:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I just finished reading Hall's book and I understand better now about the IFF Modes. Cla68 (talk) 22:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Unit Issues[edit]

The following text:

convert |4|nmi|km|-1

Attempts to convert 4 nautical miles to km, but is way off. It results in 10km, when it is only ~7.4. Am I missing something?--MikeyMoose (talk) 00:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Dead link[edit]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

--JeffGBot (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2[edit]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

--JeffGBot (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Battle infobox[edit]

I don't agree with using the battle infobox in this article. It wasn't a battle. It was an accident, so I think the generic incident box should continue to be used. Cla68 (talk) 04:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It did use {{infobox military conflict}} before. That it was an accident is the reason it says "Participants" instead of "Belligerents", the infobox doesn't imply that it wasn't an accident. This infobox is used in the same way on USS Liberty incident, USS Panay incident, and USS Stark incident, all of which are (or at least are claimed to be) accidents. There is a dispute on weather {{infobox military conflict}} should be used at all on friendly and neutral fire incidents, but considering that was already used here, I didn't think fleshing it out would be a problem. If you think this should only be used in a limited way on FF and/or NF incidents, feel free to participate in the discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_military_conflict#Should_this_be_used_in_Friendly_fire_incidents.3F. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:56, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation page[edit]

2011.09.08, User:Apokrif added:

Month later, User:Gary vetoed: (already disambiguated) I propose either:

I believe it is quite important for this disambig reminder to stay; most importantly because the title of this article Black Hawk shootdown incident contains every word in the existing similar Black Hawk Down title, therefore it succinctly separates the two events. A person arriving via search engine may not immediately realize they are looking for the other event, because although being very different, their similarities are fairly significant:

  • both helicopters were shot down
  • short time-frame between events; happened within 7 months of each other
  • both events were culturally and militarily significant
  • same general area (Iraq and Somalia)

Dtgm (talk) 12:54, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

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